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Jace Hall
11-13-2019 at 09:05 PM
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TGSAP ONLY MODE

In light of some of the conversation and concerns that have been going on in regard to historical scores vs TGSAP scores, I have asked our engineering team look into creating a "TGSAP ONLY" mode for Twin Galaxies that will be set as default.

If set, this will remove all non-TGSAP scores from all displays and site calculations.

It will only display TGSAP scores and would rank list everything throughout the site only according to TGSAP scores.

If TGSAP ONLY mode is created, if a member wanted to include non-TGSAP scores into the display/lists/calculations they would then be able to set their account to ALL SCORES mode. (This is the mode the site currently is in).

I will keep you posted on this matter. That is all. Thank you.

Comments
  1. The Evener's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by timmell
    [snip]

    But if you did just have the one scoreboard TGSAP. I would recommend rebranding everything . Call it something else. Because the name Twin Galaxies is hurt by the past ownerships actions , and the invalid scores in the database. Past ownership is gone and if you separate all the old scores from TGSAP then what is the value in keeping the name? TGSAP is only hurt by caring the Twin Galaxies name.

    I've heard others raise this idea before - just curious about thoughts of others. I'm torn, partly because of the fact that TG has more "name recognition." It's an interesting thought experiment to imagine a completely rebranded site. Would it just end up being called "the site formerly known as Twin Galaxies" though?

  2. Desidious's Avatar

    Yeah we all know how good the current "logic" is. Let's make a rule and not follow it because tgsap is different than the past leaderboard. Let's all forego the multiple fishy scores and the blatant collusion to accommodate someone at the top of so many leaderboards. How can anyone NOT FUCKING SEE THIS PLACE AS A FUCKING JOKE GODAMN. So fucking fed up with this shitty ****. Just wanna pull my goddamn hair out.

  3. Snowflake's Avatar

    i didnt come here cause of kok or any other tg name, i came cause i did a google search for babypcman, found this, and loved what i saw. by the time i learned the crap foundation it was built on, it was too late i was already here. in my opinion "twin galaxies" is not a name to be proud, it is a shame and it more well known for its problems than anything good. however, as much shame as the name carries, the current system works. thats what brought me and keeps me.

    any change will likely upset current member since well current members are here for how it is. likewise though refusing to change will continue to alienate outsides, cause well they refuse to come here because of how it is

    a major change is needed if TG wants to be more than just a small niche. such a chance would no doubt lose members, who knows, maybe even the majority of current people would leave, but also a major chance is needed to grow and become more than this small site is. gonna take some short term pain for long term gain.

  4. sdwyer138's Avatar

    I personally dont see the need for a filter or a split or anything like that. But I understand why some folks are in favor of these solution.

    I have based a handful of my tgsap submissions on beating pretgsap scores. I wouldnt have been challenged nearly as much if those pretgsap scores were not present or otherwise recognized.

    If the dispute process was simpler/faster, then I think that would help a lot of people feel better about the pretgsap scores and reduce the desire for some sort of split, regardless of how it is implemented.

    That said, of the two solutions presented here, I would prefer a user selected filter over a complete split/archive.

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  5. Snowflake's Avatar

    another idea - jace, is a suggestion you yourself once made long ago. to have rating on the records. A+ rating or platinum, or whatever you wanna call it for scores with hihg level of proof. lowever level rating for less proof.

    A rating system may accomplish the same thing. All tgsap is autmatically A+, this would also allow the upgrade of old records. once an old record is reexamined and found to have tgsap level proof, it still kees "referee" as verification methiod, but becmes A+

    records with no proof has a much lower rating

    records that are highly supicious, enough that wer'e 90% are fake, but cant 100% be proven fake have an even lower rating

    perhaps the rating system could help solve the underlying issue.

  6. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Ok all great feedback.

    Based on what I read, at this point I think the best option for the moment is to keep the scoreboard as is and focus more energy on the dispute process and let the community and dispute process do its thing. I'll see if I can speed up the dispute review a bit.

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  7. Desidious's Avatar

    More smoke and mirrors here than in a funhouse.

  8. Garrett Holland's Avatar

    Just an observation: many of those who favor the current system as-is (and as-has-been) seem to hold a tremendous amount of contempt for TG, and seemingly so for the guy who I see as making a conspicuous and sustained effort to clean up the mess, going so far as to attempt to gain consensus among the members. I have also observed that like in most other life matters, the ones with the most contempt are the loudest.

    What is also incontrovertibly evident is that the old system is trash, yet, is being defended because "that's how it's always been done".

    As long as there are any scores at all on the leaderboard when if disputed, the same handful of actors show up all over the dispute thread with "You can't prove that they *didn't* get that, so your dispute is invalid, and you are a ******** for even making the attempt to dispute it. Get lost, scrub" on a disputed score where there is literally zero evidence, then the majority of members (let's face it ... they are silent, and will remain so ... if they want to be trashed by faceless strangers on the internet, they'll join a politically-based FB group) will continue to not take *any* record listed on here seriously, and have doubts as to the integrity of malcontents who continue to defend them with excuses.



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    Updated 11-16-2019 at 02:13 PM by Garrett Holland
  9. EVN's Avatar

    At this point it just feels like Jace is throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

    This place will continue along a path of graceful decay until the issue of scoreboard integrity is addressed. Archiving all the pre-TGSAP is a good option as it achieves that outcome quickly and moves us in line with "no vid no did" like other communities. Right now other communities see us as a joke.

    Doing that alone wont fix this place though, the constant bitching on walls needs to end, editorial needs to get in line with what the site is about and this place needs some marketing to grow the userbase again once the database is deemed as trustworthy. This is the part I can't see happening.

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  10. Almighty Dreadlock's Avatar

    What a waste of time idea. Am not going to go so far as to say it's a ploy to cover up the stink of TG's "historical database", but I recognise the strong possibility, given recent revelations

  11. Pearl2hu's Avatar

    just reset everything

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  12. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by EVN

    At this point it just feels like Jace is throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

    No. The problem is complex and the feedback is mixed and difficult to discern a general consensus on the issue. Which is why I'm asking questions directly.

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  13. EVN's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall


    No. The problem is complex and the feedback is mixed and difficult to discern a general consensus on the issue. Which is why I'm asking questions directly.


    I guess if you feel that consensus from a stale user base is valuable. This feels like more of the same "the loudest people here" dictate what Jace does. Why don't you put forward all the options and create a poll if that's what you are doing?


    What it looks like to me is "we're gonna filter, no wait were gonna archive the old stuff, no wait now were gonna do nothing"


    Or "We're gonna ban Rodrigo, if the speedrunners say we should, no wait we're only gonna delete the pre TGSAP scores only, no wait - whatever comes next"


    It really feels like spitballing then going with the flow of the outrage that gets generated. The problem with this is that there are a lot of members who are pretty silent on these walls.

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  14. Garrett Holland's Avatar

    I learned of this site through Guinness. Pock marks and all, I like this site ... a lot ... and I don't even like Guinness anymore (ef 'em for all I care). I dont like where TG was, but I like where it's been going under the current leadership. Even with that being said, and Im sure Ill catch some either subtle or overt shizznit over this, but I dig Walter Day, too. If it weren't for Day, we wouldn't be here (naturally, a positive for those who aren't one to have expressed abject hatred for the site in spite of still actively participating here ... the irony is delicious). There were some activities that happened pre-Jace that we consider shenanigans, but perhaps Day either didn't consider it that way, or, maybe he was too optimistic and trusting of the bad actors around him. He had a different vision and different priorities, and maybe that vision was appropriate for that time. Now, it is *this* time. The current leadership has a different vision, and one that I'm looking forward to being implemented, however long it takes, based on my observations. For being accused of "doing nothing" all the time, Jace sure isn't demonstrating a very good job of "doing nothing". Based on what Ive read, he's literally the only one in 35+ years who has actually demonstrated that he gives a damn about scoreboard integrity *and* attempts to do something about it. And that's not a slam on Day, either. Day's focus seemed to be data collecting irrespective of data integrity, which could likely have been the most appropriate approach for that time.

    If some feel that this makes me an arse-kissin' TG/Walter/Jace hybrid fanboy, so be it, but I am kind of tired of seeing all three attacked constantly. As far as I can tell, nobody has forced anyone else to *not* delete their own account.

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    Updated 11-16-2019 at 06:21 PM by Garrett Holland
  15. Snowflake's Avatar

    i 99% agree garet (excuse the spelling i know its wrong but i[m too drunk to remember the right way). I'm pretty sure i offended jace somehwat recently, and sometime he needs the criticsim. but consider this, unlike the old tg that banned any criticism, jace at least allows us to criticize him. that says something. he's not perfect, but he allows exchange of information even when its negative towards him. I thin people are too critical of jace. by all means, kick his ass on occasion, let him know he screwed up, but also credit the man for listening and doing what he can do to improve things.

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  16. lexmark's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    i 99% agree garet (excuse the spelling i know its wrong but i[m too drunk to remember the right way).

    Must be that time of month again for you! (you said in another thread that you drink once a month only)

    Anyway. I'd like to see an area (thread/list that members could note any OLD scores that they think is bogus. A sort of dispute listing area that isn't an official dispute. Hope yous know what I mean/am talking about?

    It would be interesting.

    john


    .

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  17. The Evener's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by EVN

    At this point it just feels like Jace is throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

    This place will continue along a path of graceful decay until the issue of scoreboard integrity is addressed. Archiving all the pre-TGSAP is a good option as it achieves that outcome quickly and moves us in line with "no vid no did" like other communities. Right now other communities see us as a joke.

    Doing that alone wont fix this place though, the constant bitching on walls needs to end, editorial needs to get in line with what the site is about and this place needs some marketing to grow the userbase again once the database is deemed as trustworthy. This is the part I can't see happening.

    Despite my advocacy of the merits of the historical database, I'm not inclined to defend its retention in its current form if there's indeed a large groundswell of potential active users in other communities out there waiting to join TG. Despite my earlier posts, my fundamental priority is to see the growth of the TG community. I'm just fundamentally skeptical that these users will come after the pre-TGSAP scores are purged/archived. And maybe this is a generational thing since I grew up in the 80s and experienced the limitations of what type of evidence gamers could reasonably achieve at that time - is there just a fundamental disdain among gamers about scores that don't have video evidence (no vid, no did) regardless of the circumstances why this evidence doesn't exist?

    Also more broadly as a question directed to everyone - who are these users? The only active group I've seen addressed lately are speedrunners (I just skimmed the Zelda thread), and one of the take-aways I took from that discussion is that speedrunners have created their own community and scoreboard. Sure, there are some who are interested in giving TG a second look, but I didn't see anything that suggested a large growth in the user base from that community - the general tone I heard was that "speedrunners took care of the disputed Zelda run a long time ago - what TG does really doesn't concern or interest the community." I thought there was a raft of other issues at play - mainly hinging on trust that dates back several years concerning track importation, etc - that I viewed as more significant as a "barrier" to TG growth.


  18. The Evener's Avatar

    I also think that a poll would be a great idea as I would really like to see where the weight of the community lies on this question. I don't mean to antagonize people about my advocacy for the pre-TGSAP scores. Increasingly I'm beginning to think that my assumptions about why people came to TG were based on views that may have been true back in 2004, but no longer today. If the historical database is actually a barrier to growth rather than a catalyst for it, then I'll have to do some quiet reflection before jumping into this debate any further.

    Maybe a bit more context about my view would help. I mainly compete on 1980s classic console tracks, like ColecoVision. I'd hazard that 95-99% of the CV tracks include pre-TGSAP scores. A very similar number probably represents the percentage of tracks that ONLY contain pre-TGSAP scores, meaning that after a pre-TGSAP removal the vast majority of these tracks won't have any scores in the TGSAP context. I've examined a lot of tracks, and there are some fishy things about them - namely, that a former referee had the time to accrue a couple thousand WRs and completely dominate the CV platform, all the while being an active referee adjudicating other TG submissions and holding down a job and family. Keep in mind that usually each ColecoVision title has four levels of difficulty making four separate tracks, where games take time to play and record and aren't fast hits like with some iOS games being tracked here. That said, the scores for Levels 2 to 4 are mostly within the realm of human capability. Despite the fishiness, I ultimately decided that being part of a "competition" was more important than having some sort of resolution or closure with said fishiness. Of course, your mileage may vary.

    Updated 11-16-2019 at 08:01 PM by The Evener
  19. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by lexmark


    Must be that time of month again for you! (you said in another thread that you drink once a month only)

    Anyway. I'd like to see an area (thread/list that members could note any OLD scores that they think is bogus. A sort of dispute listing area that isn't an official dispute. Hope yous know what I mean/am talking about?

    It would be interesting.

    john


    .

    i have strong doubts about the maxouts on atari river raid and plaque attack.

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  20. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by EVN



    I guess if you feel that consensus from a stale user base is valuable. This feels like more of the same "the loudest people here" dictate what Jace does. Why don't you put forward all the options and create a poll if that's what you are doing?


    What it looks like to me is "we're gonna filter, no wait were gonna archive the old stuff, no wait now were gonna do nothing"


    Or "We're gonna ban Rodrigo, if the speedrunners say we should, no wait we're only gonna delete the pre TGSAP scores only, no wait - whatever comes next"


    It really feels like spitballing then going with the flow of the outrage that gets generated. The problem with this is that there are a lot of members who are pretty silent on these walls.


    I understand what you are saying.

    I think you may be taking my statements as "I'm gunna do this" as opposed to informational updates of the exploration of certain subjects.

    For instance, the original posting for this thread simply states that I've asked the engineering team to look into creating the TGSAP-ONLY mode, and that I would keep people posted of what their feedback was. I did not say, "I'm gunna do TGSAP mode." There is a difference, but I understand how someone could translate and infer something other than what I meant.

    I know it can seem on the surface that there is a reaction to outrage, but there genreally isn't. There is so much continuous outrage on all subjects that I would not be able to do anything else BUT react to it. However there are certain points that are brought up (outrage or not) that have some validity and I do want to address the identified issue as best I can.

    Again, I do understand the point you are making.

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