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Jace Hall
11-13-2019 at 09:05 PM
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TGSAP ONLY MODE

In light of some of the conversation and concerns that have been going on in regard to historical scores vs TGSAP scores, I have asked our engineering team look into creating a "TGSAP ONLY" mode for Twin Galaxies that will be set as default.

If set, this will remove all non-TGSAP scores from all displays and site calculations.

It will only display TGSAP scores and would rank list everything throughout the site only according to TGSAP scores.

If TGSAP ONLY mode is created, if a member wanted to include non-TGSAP scores into the display/lists/calculations they would then be able to set their account to ALL SCORES mode. (This is the mode the site currently is in).

I will keep you posted on this matter. That is all. Thank you.

Comments
  1. GibGirl's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185

    If a score shouldn't be there, that is why we have the dispute system.

    Tell me how to find all the scores that shouldn't be there. Please. I'd like to know how a score that exists just as a name, date, and a number can be determined if to be legitimate or fake, other than the score being impossible to achieve.

    Because that's the problem. There are bad scores on the leaderboards that we can't determine are bad. We don't know which ones, or how many. But it's enough to make all of the pre-TGSAP scores tainted for some of us.

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  2. Snowflake's Avatar

    following on gibs point about the known unkown -- we know theres a lot of fake scores that we dont know are fake (dont know which one) . But theres also scores where we cant meet the burden of proof but we know enough to realize when someone is cheating

  3. GibGirl's Avatar

    I would like to see, as part of these changes, a process for adding evidence to existing pre-TGSAP scores. So that people can add their own videos if they have them somewhere. Or TG can add them if any of the old tapes start being digitized. Or any other sorts of evidence could be added. Some method to "upgrade" the old scores to count for the TGSAP world.

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  4. RaGe's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcade



    RaGe is back!!! This makes my day!!! :)

    You COULD OF told us ahead of time you were going to be GFG, muscle boy!


    HOLLLLAAAAAAAAAA!!!

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  5. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by redelf

    My feelings are mixed. We lose so many legit scores by gamers Dondald Hayes, Matt Hall, Robert Mruczek, The Crams, David Nelson, Dwayne Richard, Martin Bedard and those are just some of them. Most of the arcade scores are legit, it was and is mostly the consoles that have been cheated. Make the scoreboard TGSAP only and you lose over 90% of the Arcade board.

    I'm not understanding all the comments that seem to indicate that something is being removed.

    This is an addition.


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  6. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl

    I would like to see, as part of these changes, a process for adding evidence to existing pre-TGSAP scores. So that people can add their own videos if they have them somewhere. Or TG can add them if any of the old tapes start being digitized. Or any other sorts of evidence could be added. Some method to "upgrade" the old scores to count for the TGSAP world.

    Yes. This is something that we will need to figure out how to do properly at a later time, but I agree with the concept.

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  7. datagod's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by redelf

    My feelings are mixed. We lose so many legit scores by gamers Dondald Hayes, Matt Hall, Robert Mruczek, The Crams, David Nelson, Dwayne Richard, Martin Bedard and those are just some of them. Most of the arcade scores are legit, it was and is mostly the consoles that have been cheated. Make the scoreboard TGSAP only and you lose over 90% of the Arcade board.

    Good point about consoles. But the scores won't be gone. You just don't have to see them if you don't want to. That is what I understand anyway.

  8. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by datagod


    Dude, are you high? There are plenty of impossible scores that are in the system / have been removed from the system. Who wants to compete on impossible scores? I say that turns people away more than anything.

    You need X credit to even dispute a score. I say the reason people dispute scores is that they clearly violate the rules (TGSAP with missing youtube evidence) or they have been proven to be faked / used EXCESSIVE LEEEEEECHING / Were refereed by a wife's account, etc.

    My wife asked me why I care so much. My answer is that integrity is important in all aspects of life.

    You misunderstood what I said. I was saying that some of the cheated/fake scores in the database are only noticed BECAUSE someone is probably going to compete on the game. If those scores are now filtered out and aren't automatically seen every time, they could be missed. Yes I'm aware that impossible scores are on the leaderboards. Yes I'm aware that it's impossible to compete against an impossible score. Yes I most certainly want them removed. Are you high for misreading what I wrote, haha. Silly Rabbit, tricks are for kids :P

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  9. timmell's Avatar

    How about get someone to go through the disputes and make rulings on them. To clean it up instead of filtering.

    Or maybe........

    We should also do more filters. By Era.

    Walter Day Era

    Pete Bovier Era

    Richie and Jordan era ( what like 7 scores)

    TGSAP (Hall era)


    Or how about actually being " the authority" on video game competition and records. By setting the rules and tracks, making actually logical league type decisions to keep game play fair and competitive. And only at that point TG can then be able to collect data worthwhile keeping around.


    Let's State of the Galaxies this topic @Jace Hall


    You guys want to broadcast on another streaming platform this time? Maybe Youtube Gaming, or Smashcast. Still haven't hit those yet.


    Tech note : (I guess) Does TG want to spend more resources on developing a new filter. IMO not worth the time.


  10. The Evener's Avatar

    What happens to score rankings in a track mixed with TGSAP and pre-TGSAP scores? Will the TGSAP view re-sort the rankings based on existing TGSAP submissions in the track, or does it simply hide the pre-TGSAP scores and preserve the rankings, so there'll just be missing place rankings in the spot for the pre-TGSAP scores?

    EDIT: so I re-read the opening post more carefully - it sounds rankings will be repopulated/sorted based on the filter. So there could be two different WRs for the same track? One TGSAP WR (for TGSAP view), and a pre-TGSAP WR (for ALL view) based on the scenario where the pre-TGSAP score is higher?

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    Updated 11-14-2019 at 09:46 PM by The Evener
  11. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener

    What happens to score rankings in a track mixed with TGSAP and pre-TGSAP scores? Will the TGSAP view re-sort the rankings based on existing TGSAP submissions in the track, or does it simply hide the pre-TGSAP scores and preserve the rankings, so there'll just be missing place rankings in the spot for the pre-TGSAP scores?


    thats very relevant for esi. i remember something simliar during psi (esi predecessor). only TGSAP scores earned PSI, however, they could earn PSI from beating pre-tgsap. which is awkard to say the least. The pre-tgsap score simlutanesouly existed and didnt exist for psi, it existed for tgsap people when we beat it and earned points, but didnt exist for the score owner.

    that was of course eventually fixed. but your question makes me think depending on implementation something simliar could again happen

  12. Pearl2hu's Avatar

    cool that means the un squadron score will be gone

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  13. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener

    What happens to score rankings in a track mixed with TGSAP and pre-TGSAP scores? Will the TGSAP view re-sort the rankings based on existing TGSAP submissions in the track, or does it simply hide the pre-TGSAP scores and preserve the rankings, so there'll just be missing place rankings in the spot for the pre-TGSAP scores?

    EDIT: so I re-read the opening post more carefully - it sounds rankings will be repopulated/sorted based on the filter. So there could be two different WRs for the same track? One TGSAP WR (for TGSAP view), and a pre-TGSAP WR (for ALL view) based on the scenario where the pre-TGSAP score is higher?

    The TGSAP ONLY filter would work to answer this question for every leaderboard and stat display type throughout the site:

    "What are the rankings if all non-TGSAP scores are not considered?"

    There is only ever one #1 WR for a track. What determines that #1 is how you choose to look at it.

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  14. Blackflag82's Avatar

    I think the adjustments of ESI based on the filtering is what worries me the most in this process/discussion. Not in how it affects the ESI, but in the way this change will bug out the system. I mean, we have issues with ESI now when changes get made...I can only imagine the issues that are going to arise when we actually get changes to ESI calculation/display...

    I wonder what the point of adjusting ESI based on the filtering is? ESI is kind of a more advanced stat already (ie. folks who are new, aren't looking at ESI, they're looking at WRs. The folks who are looking at ESI are able to view it in different ways based on their preferences without the filter). So leaving ESI the same regardless of filter doesn't really change how its going to be viewed - if you're choosing to look at scores through a filter, you're still going to be able to create a mental filter of where you stand on an ESI list. It's kind of going along with what Kyle was saying between the 12 game and 16 game NFL seasons...folks who are capable of looking at something in that depth, already know what these stats mean (and don't mean) without filters.

    To use NES as an example (And I don't mean this to cast shade on anyone, but I'm also pretty sure Kyle and Roger won't take offense to it). If the ESI that is default only includes TGSAP, then a casual observer would assume Kyle and Roger are the two best NES players this site has ever seen. And it's not until the person become more versed in the site that they're able to realize Tom Votava is actually the best NES player the site has seen.

    In any case, I don't think it will matter a ton in the long run of what happens with ESI, but in the short term it seems like it is an unnecessary adjustment that will only cause frustration for everyone working on and using the site

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  15. Marcade's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackflag82

    I think the adjustments of ESI based on the filtering is what worries me the most in this process/discussion. Not in how it affects the ESI, but in the way this change will bug out the system. I mean, we have issues with ESI now when changes get made...I can only imagine the issues that are going to arise when we actually get changes to ESI calculation/display...

    I wonder what the point of adjusting ESI based on the filtering is? ESI is kind of a more advanced stat already (ie. folks who are new, aren't looking at ESI, they're looking at WRs. The folks who are looking at ESI are able to view it in different ways based on their preferences without the filter). So leaving ESI the same regardless of filter doesn't really change how its going to be viewed - if you're choosing to look at scores through a filter, you're still going to be able to create a mental filter of where you stand on an ESI list. It's kind of going along with what Kyle was saying between the 12 game and 16 game NFL seasons...folks who are capable of looking at something in that depth, already know what these stats mean (and don't mean) without filters.

    To use NES as an example (And I don't mean this to cast shade on anyone, but I'm also pretty sure Kyle and Roger won't take offense to it). If the ESI that is default only includes TGSAP, then a casual observer would assume Kyle and Roger are the two best NES players this site has ever seen. And it's not until the person become more versed in the site that they're able to realize Tom Votava is actually the best NES player the site has seen.

    In any case, I don't think it will matter a ton in the long run of what happens with ESI, but in the short term it seems like it is an unnecessary adjustment that will only cause frustration for everyone working on and using the site


    I know ESI is an important tracking stat to some, and thats fine. Personally, I ignore ESI altogether, as all it is in my eyes is STILL a "Participation submission index". (Ah, the ol' PSI)

    I agree, the proposed filters WILL SCREW UP those ESI stats once implemented (overall and platform based)

    (and I will feel sorry for those that currently focusing on working to improve their ESI's)

    MarC my words!!!

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  16. Blackflag82's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcade

    I know ESI is an important tracking stat to some, and thats fine. Personally, I ignore ESI altogether, as all it is in my eyes is STILL a "Participation submission index". (Ah, the ol' PSI)

    I agree, the proposed filters WILL SCREW UP those ESI stats once implemented (overall and platform based)

    For sure. I like ESI for in game comparison and sometimes in system comparison, but even those I view with a grain of salt. For me the way ESI would be most useful as a stat is to allow me to use a filter which would compare games I've played with others across those platforms. For example, if I wanted to compare my GB ESI to Kyle's GB ESI, being able to compare it with the games we have both played would be a more useful stat imo.

    But honestly, I'd rather do that personalization of stats on my own time than try to incorporate that into the current system given what that would probably mean for the site functionality.

    So yeah, my preference - allow TGSAP filtering, but leave everything else alone.

  17. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackflag82

    I think the adjustments of ESI based on the filtering is what worries me the most in this process/discussion. Not in how it affects the ESI, but in the way this change will bug out the system. I mean, we have issues with ESI now when changes get made...I can only imagine the issues that are going to arise when we actually get changes to ESI calculation/display...

    I wonder what the point of adjusting ESI based on the filtering is? ESI is kind of a more advanced stat already (ie. folks who are new, aren't looking at ESI, they're looking at WRs. The folks who are looking at ESI are able to view it in different ways based on their preferences without the filter). So leaving ESI the same regardless of filter doesn't really change how its going to be viewed - if you're choosing to look at scores through a filter, you're still going to be able to create a mental filter of where you stand on an ESI list. It's kind of going along with what Kyle was saying between the 12 game and 16 game NFL seasons...folks who are capable of looking at something in that depth, already know what these stats mean (and don't mean) without filters.

    To use NES as an example (And I don't mean this to cast shade on anyone, but I'm also pretty sure Kyle and Roger won't take offense to it). If the ESI that is default only includes TGSAP, then a casual observer would assume Kyle and Roger are the two best NES players this site has ever seen. And it's not until the person become more versed in the site that they're able to realize Tom Votava is actually the best NES player the site has seen.

    In any case, I don't think it will matter a ton in the long run of what happens with ESI, but in the short term it seems like it is an unnecessary adjustment that will only cause frustration for everyone working on and using the site


    No offense taken, for sure, tho we will flow with whatever happens, I agree with your sentiments, it just makes it confusing.

    I imagine with the amount of systems that I have many scores on, the outcome in my particular situation will be all over the place, it's likely I will achieve high rankings I haven't really earned, and lose high rankings that I have certainly earned.


    I realize everyone will have the option to sort it to their liking, and wasn't ever confused on that issue, to be clear, but then that brings up people debating who is really #1 on "x" system, and I already see a dozen or more wall posts about that issue(remember, I have a time machine), so we should definitely be prepared for that.


    No lie, I haven't exactly warmed up to the idea, but I admit, I AM interested to see how things would shake up, TGSAP only, I'm just afraid of losing the historical relevance of this particular scoreboard, which, goofy me or not, is definitely important to me.


    I agree on Tom(Nice Guy, BTW), and agree on me(NES is my "first" system, you remember, but I really can't get into a scoring groove on it, at all, lol, and I consider it my weakest system, funny you mentioned me, ha!), but I wanna stand up for Kyle a bit, I do think he's creeping into the conversation as "legendary good".

    Just submits too much, Man, I hate those Guys...

    :P

    (Obviously teasing, my output ain't too low either...)


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    Updated 11-15-2019 at 08:14 AM by Rogerpoco
  18. Snowflake's Avatar

    I don’t know about neser black flag id like to see roger versus tom when rules aren’t being made to favor tom


    I’ll bet on roger will you bet on Tom?


    That’s what tg needs a tournament of the new guys versus old

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  19. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    I don’t know about neser black flag id like to see roger versus tom when rules aren’t being made to favor tom


    I’ll bet on roger will you bet on Tom?


    That’s what tg needs a tournament of the new guys versus old


    I'm taking that as one of the biggest compliments I have ever received-that kind of belief and encouragement can really help someone try to "step up" a bit, I don't see NES on my horizon soon, but that statement will likely help me improve/try harder on everything from here out.

    I can't believe you said that...

    Made my day, Man.

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  20. Blackflag82's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    I don’t know about neser black flag id like to see roger versus tom when rules aren’t being made to favor tom


    I’ll bet on roger will you bet on Tom?


    That’s what tg needs a tournament of the new guys versus old

    Nope, I wouldn't bet against roger overtaking Tom's ESI in the long run. But that gets to my point- adjusting ESI doesn't make sense (not saying that you're saying that), because the ESI is never an impossible goal to overtake even if some of the scores within one's ESI are impossible.

    On a side note, this also gets back to my view that ESI can be made to be more robust and useful if it allows for side by side comparisons...being able to filter ESI for all NES Shoot'em ups, or puzzle games, or racing games, etc... would allow people to determine where they stand in the games they life to play within a system.

    If a random assortment of 25 games were chosen that Tom V had scores on for the NES and the tournament was to get higher ESI on just that subset of games, I would be willing to take Tom on that bet (because of games like Bayou Billy)

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