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Jace Hall
02-16-2020 at 05:44 PM

This original TG Stargate and Defender Tournament tracks have been modified to allow for Baiter-Hunting.



A new track has been created for competition without Baiter-Hunting for Stargate. Defender already had one created by the community.



https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/stargate/arcade/points-tournament-baiter-hunting-disallowed.



Let's see who dominates.

User comments (11)

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was the original track ambiguous? I like having two tracks but I thought the original track was the one that prevented baiter hunting.
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Quote Originally Posted by datagod
was the original track ambiguous? I like having two tracks but I thought the original track was the one that prevented baiter hunting.

Please see this dispute for more info.

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/175616-Dispute-John-McAllister-Arcade-Defender-Points-Tournament-Settings-Player-Bill-Jones-Score-543-950

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It was not ambiguous.

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It is best to read the dispute for the long answer but what I got is leeching was always against the rules but they also always looked the other way — meaning you were allowed to break the rules but then later no longer were. Rules didn’t change but enforcement did. So allowing hunting is technically a change but just returns it to how it was actually handled by refs

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Jace Hall Some important information on the Williams arcade game Stargate, you probably do not know about. I JJT being a expert on the arcade games Defender & Stargate, I can help you out.

Baiter's do not come out as often as it does in Defender, what does comes out more are Phreds, Big Red & munchies. in the later waves it gets to a point, that a player cannot sustain it, In the early waves a player can stay longer but not indefinitely, still baiter's will not come out as often as Phreds,Big Reds, & Munchies.

#1 To be more correct Jace Hall-> The Twin Galaxy Rule for the arcade game Stargate should state No Hunting Phreds, Big Reds, Munchies & Baiter's at the end of the wave

Also, You could include Dynamo's projectiles & firebomber fireballs shots Note the game does not replicate them at the end of the wave.

Trying to help you out.


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The track should remain with the same rules and drop the top 2 scores into the leeching track. But the track is so ruined it will never be competed on again.

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(Redelf, I saw your post after finishing mine - I will circle back to it).

It may be a bit like 6 of one and a half-dozen of the other, but in the spirit of recent rule changes on console that were undertaken to acknowledge and preserve the historical rules of competition, I believe that there' may be a case to have the scores of Gino Yoo, Shane Ducharme, and Mike Munoz moved to a new track reflecting their rule set.

In the dispute thread you cited, Jace, there were questions about whether these three players competed on three ship settings, rather than the five that is now part of the track.

One can trace part of the error back to the 1998 Edition of Twin Galaxies' Official Video Game & Pinball Book of World Records. On page 77, there is an entry for Defender Diff. #5 start: 5 men; bonus: none - that cites Yoo's score of 230,125 performed on 7/2/85. At minimum the year is incorrect and the settings of his game.

Yoo was a participate in the 1984 Video Game Masters Tournament sponsored by TG, which ran from June 29 to July 1 at multiple locations across North America.

Yoo's name appears in the 1985 Edition of the Guinness Book of World Records (pg 570) by achieving the highest score during the tournament.

Note: you can sign out a scanned version of the book "virtually" from the Internet Archive, but you will need to create an account to do so.

https://archive.org/details/guinness1985book00mcwh/page/570/mode/2up/search/defender


Similarly, the date for Mike Munoz's score is June 30, 1984, which would also place him as a participant within the timeframe of the tournament.

The 1985 Video Game Masters Tournament ran from June 28-30, 1985, placing Ducharme's game during this tournament.

While the 1985 VGMT Official Game Manual remains lost, we have access to the 1984 and 1986 editions. We can safely assume agreement between all three years since the "threshold score" for Defender (the score that you had to beat to get into Guinness) was Yoo's score of 230,125.

The 1984 VGMT Manual can be found here:

http://www.videoparadise-sanjose.com/1984vgmt-rules.htm

The 1986 VGMT Manual can be downloaded from here:

https://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=1188.0

The settings for Defender competition were:

Defender - 1984 Manual
Starting Units - 3
Bonus Unit - Limited. No extra ships given.
Difficulty - #5
Note - Planet restored every fifth wave.

Defender - 1985 Manual
Settings:
Starting ships: 3
Bonus ships - no extra ships given
Difficulty: #5
Planet restored every fifth wave

(Note: Settings are altered while machine is in self test mode)
#8 = bonus 0
#9 = 3 ships
#18 = start difficulty 0
#19 = progressively wave 5
#21 = restore planet

Note that in the Video Paradise copy of the manual, there is a notation that says "progressive wave diff (15 on our game) FACT" I believe the notation was made by Mike Klug, I don't know if he was making a note about the settings in the absence of guidance, or noting the setting that his machine is normally set on. In any event, the 1986 manual calls for 5.

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I separated the scores from Defender & Startgate with Baiter hunting & without Startgate hunting Phreds,Big Red, & Munchies

#1 To be more correct Jace Hall-> The Twin Galaxy Rule for the arcade game Stargate should state No Hunting Phreds, Big Reds, Munchies & Baiter's at the end of the wave

Also, You could include Dynamo's projectiles & firebomber fireballs shots, a player can get extra points. Note the game does not replicate these enemies at the end of the wave.

1. Defender Points [Tournament Settings] - Baiter Hunting Allowed
FOUNDED BY: TWIN GALAXIES ;
View Rules View All Submission

Rank 1 Bill Jones Date Submitted: 2008-08-15 Percent: 100.00% Verification Method: Video Status: View Dispute
Points 543,950
Rank 2 George Barton Date Submitted: 2009-09-17 Percent: 86.80% Verification Method: Referee Status: Undisputed
Points 472,150

Note: There are 5 smart bombs to go along with the 5 ships to start the game
Defender TRACK RULES
8 Bonus Ship Level = 0
9 Ships Per Game = 5
17 Free Play = 0
18 Starting Difficulty = 5 Moderate
19 Progressive Wave Difficulty Limit = 15 Moderate
21 Planet Restore Wave Number = 5
BAITER HUNTING IS ALLOWED (please see additional info):
Special Notes: These are Twin Galaxies Tournament Settings
ADDITIONAL INFO
This competitive track was created prior to April 2014 and Twin Galaxies had previously maintained a policy that allowed submitter's to keep their performances private, only showing the adjudicating referee their game play.
As a result, scores on this leader board may contain historic, but previously private techniques that were initially accepted by a referee, that have now been publicly discovered and determined as potentially falling under a broader policy that outlaws that type of game play tactic.
As a result of this "private performance" policy, this leader board may contain historic score entries that were achieved under varying rule interpretations by the submitter's, all of which were individually and separately approved at the time of each specific performance adjudication.
This historic activity has created a leader board with scores that contain BAITER-HUNTING and NON-BAITER HUNTING.
BAITER-HUNTING is considered by many to be a form of inappropriate point leeching.
Twin Galaxies does not have definitive knowledge of all of the scores on this leader board that represent the use of BAITER-HUNTING, and therefore must allow the use of the technique for future submissions to make the track as competitively fair as possible.

2. Defender Twin Galaxies Tournament Settings (TGTS)- NO BAITER HUNTING FOUNDED BY: WCopeland ; 1500points ;
View Rules View All Submission

Rank 1 Simon William Grant Date Submitted: 2018-05-07 Percent: 100.00% Verification Method: TGSAP Status: Undisputed
Points 360,500
Rank 2 John P McAllister Date Submitted: 2008-12-31 Percent: 48.62% Verification Method: DVD Status: Undisputed
Points 264,450

Note: There are 5 smart bombs to go along with the 5 ships to start the game
Defender TRACK RULES
Goal: Highest score using 5 lives with no bonus lives, and no baiter hunting.
--Any official romset on Default settings
--5 lives to start with 0 bonus lives
Tips for Adjudication:
--Red roms are most common, setting 18=5, setting 19=15,
--Green roms are most common overseas and more difficult than red, 18=0, 19=10
--White and Blue are very difficult, being the earliest iterations of the production code.
Baiter Hunting Notes:
The original TGTS track allows baiter hunting which is a form of stopping the forward progression of the game by leeching points from baiters.
Baiters were designed as an intended way to keep the wave moving forward, much like the small ufo in asteroids or Evil Otto in Berzerk.
But there were a couple of design limitations/oversights which players learned to exploit to leech points.
Basically, if you pick up many humanoids and kill baiters without any direct intention of killing off the enemies on the wave, then you are baiter hunting. If you leave 4 or more enemies on a wave and kill baiters without any direct intention of killing off the wave enemies then you are baiter hunting.

3.? Defender 3 ships 3 smart bombs
Rank 4 Gino Yoo Date Submitted: 1985-06-30 Percent: 42.31% Verification Method: Referee Status: Undisputed
Points 230,125
Rank 5 Shane Ducharme Date Submitted: 1985-06-30 Percent: 33.83% Verification Method: Referee Status: Undisputed
Points 184,025
Rank 6 Mike Munoz Date Submitted: 1984-06-30 Verification Method: Referee Status: Undisputed
Points 171,100

Note: There are 5 smart bombs & 5 increments of inviso, to go along with the 5 ships to start the game
1. Stargate Points [Tournament] - Baiter Hunting Allowed
FOUNDED BY: TWIN GALAXIES ;
View Rules View All Submission

Rank 1 Bill Jones Date Submitted: 2008-09-01 Percent: 100.00% Verification Method: DVD Status: View Dispute
Points 284,975

Stargate TRACK RULES
Extra Ship Every: 0 No Extra Ships
Ships for 1 Credit Game: 5
Ships for 2 Credit Game: 7
Free Play: No
Master Difficulty Control: 3
Intial Difficulty: 5 Moderate
Maximum Difficulty: 30 Moderate
1st Wave of Accelerated Difficulty: 0
Last Wave of Accelerated Difficulty: 0
Difficulty Acceleration Rate: 0 Moderate
Inviso Time Per Ship: 10
Men Needed To Warp: 4
Last Wave Warp Allowed: 10
BAITER-HUNTING IS ALLOWED. (please see additional Info for more detail)
ADDITIONAL INFO
This competitive track was created prior to April 2014 and Twin Galaxies had previously maintained a policy that allowed submitter's to keep their performances private, only showing the adjudicating referee their game play.
As a result, scores on this leader board may contain historic, but previously private techniques that were initially accepted by a referee that have now been publicly discovered and determined as potentially falling under a broader policy that outlaws that type of game play tactic.

Note: No Hunting Phreds, Big Reds, Munchies & Baiter's at the end of the wave

2. Stargate Points [Tournament] - Baiter Hunting Disallowed
FOUNDED BY: TWIN GALAXIES ;
View Rules View All Submission
No results found. Question on these ,because their are no video recordings of these performances, as far as I know, I may be wrong and whether these players hunted Phreds,Big Reds, Muchies & Baiter's at the end of the wave , ido not know.

Rank 3 Eric Liddell Date Submitted: 2008-05-31 Percent: 60.93% Verification Method: Referee Status: Undisputed
Points 173,625
Rank 4 Brien King Date Submitted: 2001-05-12 Percent: 23.01% Verification Method: Referee Status: Undisputed
Points 65,575
Rank 5 Donald Hayes Date Submitted: 2004-03-21 Percent: 21.49% Verification Method: Referee Status: Undisputed
Points 61,250

Stargate TRACK RULES
Extra Ship Every: 0 No Extra Ships
Ships for 1 Credit Game: 5
Ships for 2 Credit Game: 7
Free Play: No
Master Difficulty Control: 3
Intial Difficulty: 5 Moderate
Maximum Difficulty: 30 Moderate
1st Wave of Accelerated Difficulty: 0
Last Wave of Accelerated Difficulty: 0
Difficulty Acceleration Rate: 0 Moderate
Inviso Time Per Ship: 10
Men Needed To Warp: 4
Last Wave Warp Allowed: 10
BAITER-HUNTING IS NOT ALLOWED.

3.? Stargate 3 Ships 3 smart bombs 3 increments of inviso
Rank 2 Scott Heyano Date Submitted: 1985-06-30 Percent: 68.15% Verification Method: Referee Status: Undisputed
Points 194,200

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Scott Heyano and Mike Munoz both played on 3 ships, I grew up with them and we talked about it.

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The track that I want to see for both Defender and Stargate would be to have the same settings as marathon but after your 5th death the score is taken at that moment. This would allow the game to be played the way it was meant to be played and you would never baiter hunt. I think this would bring out some competition and scores on Defender would approach close to a million in a short order.

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Example the Swimming Team Medley or 400 meter freestyle

the first Swimmer in the medley is Backstroke can break a individual WR

The first swimmer in the team 400 meter freestyle can break 100 meter individual WR.

I think it is good ,as long as the Twin Galaxy rules are followed. A player can only use only 5 ships, 5 smart bombs as long as Twin Galaxy game settings are set correctly for DEFENDER.

Upon losing the 5th ship the Tournament record attempt ends & the marathon attempt continues.

#1 MAJOR PROBLEM with Twin Galaxy STARGATE Tournament setting is 5 ships, 5 smart bombs, & 5 increments of inviso, is the 5 increments units of inviso

If your playing marathon, a player gains 1 increment unit of inviso for every 10,000 points scored on Stargate.

The only way this could work & follow Twin Galaxy Stargate tournament rules, is to not allow a player to use inviso until the 5 ships are destroyed.


Quote Originally Posted by redelf

The track that I want to see for both Defender and Stargate would be to have the same settings as marathon but after your 5th death the score is taken at that moment. This would allow the game to be played the way it was meant to be played and you would never baiter hunt. I think this would bring out some competition and scores on Defender would approach close to a million in a short order.

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