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EVN
01-03-2020 at 03:59 AM
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Two player submissions

Hi all,

Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere but I haven't been able to find it anywhere.

What are people's thoughts on this sites current implementation of two player tracks?

I feel like having to make a separate account for any time I play two player with another member is pretty poor. The whole idea of having a TG account is to have a central profile to track your gaming achievements. Surely the system can be made to accommodate a score that is owned by two unique user accounts?

The other messy part of the current implementation is in order to have these two player accounts, a real user needs to have an alt account and use it to vote to earn submission points which I figure is something that should be frowned upon right?

I think just the fact that the system is as poor as it is contributes to the general lack of two player activity.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Comments
  1. Barra's Avatar

    I've probably brought this up half a dozen times (to this administration and ones previous), but I don't think its ever been high on the priority list

    A different 2 player system is definitely needed, where people use their main accounts

    One player could "initiate" the submission and then tag the other player/s who then also input the score/time at the cost of submission points to all parties. Submissions are verified as usual with all players' credibility on the line as they are tied by their main accounts to the submission (not separate accounts - which is against ToS anyway, but thats another story)

    Probably lots of engineering and background work involved with this, but its the only way to do it correctly in my opinion

    LikesSnowflake, EVN liked this post
    Updated 01-03-2020 at 04:41 AM by Barra
  2. Jace Hall's Avatar

    100% agree. 100% true.

    two player? Or bounty system? Which one first?

    LikesBarra, Snowflake liked this post
  3. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall

    100% agree. 100% true.

    two player? Or bounty system? Which one first?


    Well, I think the 2 player issue might should be first priority.

    Right now, several of us are "testing the waters" on the Bounty thing, and I think there might be stuff to experience and learn from the individual user offerings-basically, we are already sorta "beta testing" the bounty thing, seems like, so there doesn't seem to be need to rush that.


    Gosh, I can only imagine the pita it's gonna be for someone to implement 2 player submission access, but it has been needed for a while.


    No worries either way, just my opinions and explanations of "priority" from my perspective, others may feel strongly different.

  4. Max's Avatar

    Fixing the notifications that are not functioning correctly would be my preference for the current #1 priority. However, as Roger mentions, others may feel strongly otherwise.

    Currently users receive some, but not all notifications. Several people have brought this issue up already.

    At a guess, I would say I'm currently receiving 50% of activity via notifications. Hopefully everything people vote on is error free as one can't be assured to receive notifications in the event another user finds an issue with a submission and comments accordingly. It's also nice to see if someone commented on one of your own submissions so you can respond.


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  5. The Evener's Avatar

    Since we're talking about sequencing of projects, I would give a lot of weight/deference to time & effort required for each one in the absence of hard data about community preference. For example, if implementing a bounty system required half the time and effort compared to Two Player, I'd focus on the bounty first.

  6. GibGirl's Avatar

    I'd prioritize handling multi-player submissions above a bounty system, as the latter could be functionally managed in a workable way without a formal system being implemented. Not that I don't WANT a bounty system, just that it's much easier to work around than the current multi-player submission process. Also, could we actually have a discussion on how multi-player submissions should be done before any work is done on the feature? I've spent time thinking about it in the past, and it's definitely got some complications in the details. It's always better to find issues when designing a feature than it is after it's implemented.

    On the other hand, there are still plenty of bugs and small features on the bug list and feature list on the wiki that haven't been taken care of. (And others that were claimed to have been done, but there's no evidence of such things on the web site)

    And I still think improving the experience for New Users to TG should be higher priority than either of those.

    LikesSnowflake, MyOwnWorstEnemy liked this post
    Updated 01-03-2020 at 10:41 AM by GibGirl
  7. Snowflake's Avatar

    man i hate having to choose, i want it all, but ok, realistically priorities matter i'd go with 2 payer largely for what gibgirl says

    look, you can measure things on effort, importance, or commonality. (the most important thing might come up rarely, the most common thing might not matter much, the easiest quickest thing could rarely come up and matter little...)

    theres alwasy opinoni in how highly to weight each one. but way i see it, lack of notifications suck, but a work around exists, i can check things as annoying as that is. so though notificatoins are the most important in theory, and most common, and probably even easiest to fix, so best by all 3 methods of measurement, since i have a work around i'm not overly worked up. people have also found a work around to bounties. there is no work around to two players subs, even the current work around requires a hybird name, so not only is it not a true work around in that it doesnt truly credit both players, additionally as evn points out it forces fake accounts to start voting, which is equivalent to ballot stuffing and i think thats a problem


    tl;dr; everything else has a work around, two player doesnt, and two player forces voter fraud, so i have to say this needs to come first.

  8. The Evener's Avatar

    The workaround for two player subs is creating a new account with two names - yes, it sucks, but that's the current process. I'd be deeply reluctant to look at a model where we prioritize working on something that a) may take a very long time (look at the length of time for tournament system, is it finished yet; or certificates, which had a multi-year lead time, and then were pulled), and b) we're not even sure of the pent-up demand for. I'd like to see a few TG victories - delaying the easiest thing to do doesn't seem like a winning strategy. Now if the Two Player system is the quicker fix, then absolutely, open the velvet rope and let it to the front of the line.

    Updated 01-03-2020 at 11:30 AM by The Evener
  9. EVN's Avatar

    My 2c is that just like tournaments, a bounty is something that people can and will do better than an official TG one.

    Correct handling of two player records is core functionality of the site and needs to work properly.


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  10. Snowflake's Avatar

    call this semantics, but its more as it explains the core of my point when i said no work around works. i only call something a workaround, if sure it might be more effort but in the end it provides the same service. a substitue which does not give the same reuslts is not a true work around. There is no workaround for currently getting esi or wr count added to your main for competition. There is a workaround to appear on the leaderboard and submit. i'll avoid using the word as my intention really isnt to debate semantics, my intention is to just clear up what i meant to avoid miscommunication. the current system does not actually provide the services an official 2player method would. its not just more inconvenient it truly lacks functionality.

  11. Desidious's Avatar

    Please fix these damn notifications I don't receive.

    Likesthegamer1185 liked this post
  12. timmell's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall

    100% agree. 100% true.

    two player? Or bounty system? Which one first?


    Not just Two player, more like multiple player submissions. It would be ideal that all team members have individual accounts (and register) then form as a team and list all names on a submission. TG has 3 and 4 player tracks too, plus the growth of esports type teams going for co-op scores/records, etc.

    Bounty system IMO would be awesome but not as important as above. Plus if TG is going to act a in the escrow of the exchange money/award from sponsor to gamer. At this point in time I would have no trust in TG doing that responsibility based on the past issues and problems with the certificates.

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  13. EVN's Avatar

    Hey is it true that I need another phone number that is unique from the one attached to my main account to verify a two player account?

  14. Ninglendo's Avatar

    I agree with @timmell here. Based on the past and how TG has handled money for a service the trust just isn't there. Besides do we really need TG to play middleman with people's money? Im perfectly capable of making a wall post for a bounty, seeing a person accomplished it, and paying out myself. At the most TG should just have a page to organize the active bounties without playing middleman to payments. Like the cert system what if someone creates a bounty, TG holds onto the money, a year passes and TG just refunds the money to the person that created the bounty? I mean it's not a crazy thought since it happened with the cert system. A player gave TG money, a year passed, and then TG told them they werent making certs anymore and refunded his money. Or another what if scenario is what if the system bugs out and affects payments? The problem with bugs is all too common here, I dunno but I think TG should just stay away from other people's money. I just know if I have an itch to put up a bounty I will do it myself and skip the middleman. That way I know things will be handled correctly and if not the blame is on myself and I don't have to wonder what the heck is up with the middleman.

  15. GibGirl's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninglendo

    At the most TG should just have a page to organize the active bounties without playing middleman to payments.

    If only there was somewhere on TG where we could set up something like that ourselves...

  16. EVN's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl


    If only there was somewhere on TG where we could set up something like that ourselves...


    Yeah or if you want people to actually see it, you could use things like Twitter, Reddit, Discord and Facebook.

  17. Desidious's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by EVN

    Hey is it true that I need another phone number that is unique from the one attached to my main account to verify a two player account?


    I used my same phone number for the two player account I created if I'm not mistaken. I could have used my friend's but he isn't as active here.

  18. GibGirl's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by EVN

    Yeah or if you want people to actually see it, you could use things like Twitter, Reddit, Discord and Facebook.

    That's also why I wouldn't have high expectations for a TG bounty system to actually get much use. A wiki exists, and nobody really uses it. Then a tournament system that people dabbled with and stopped caring about.

    Yes, the tournament system still has a number of bugs which need to be fixed to be closer to useful. (https://www.twingalaxies.com/wiki_index.php?title=List-of-Known-Tournament-System-Bugs) And yes, the wiki really needs some better integration into the main TG site to feel like it's relevant - including a handful of what I'd hope would be simple changes. But there's a history of the community asking for features, but not being that clear on what they want that feature to include, then barely making use of it once it's provided and not what people wanted.

    Updated 01-04-2020 at 10:47 AM by GibGirl
  19. Max's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl

    Then a tournament system that people dabbled with and stopped caring about.


    I know mame people wanted something two years ago, so they made tournament system themselves and self support it. It works great and is still in active use for mame tournaments. It is simple and to the point, costs nothing to use and there is no middle man when support is required.

    The TG tournament system is still in the works two years later (but I guess is now getting pushed aside for either two player scores or bounties). It may as well get pushed aside as I can't see anyone that would really use it at this point, other than a few people here or there that could just as easily post small tournament results on a spreadsheet.

    As for bounties, historically on any given year there are not that many bounties offered. Post your bounty in a thread on whatever forum/website you like and you can control all the bounty details quite easily. It's worked great in the past without issue. No middle man required.

    Two player scores will be great for the dozen or so scores that might follow, then for the few scores a year that trickle in after that.

    For that matter, I'm assuming certificates are off the table too?

    Yet oddly, notifications, a core fundamental for voting doesn't work. It's like getting emails but not having anything in your in box. But the reality here is the largest impact is only on the few that heavily vote.

    So I'll retract wanting notifications to be prioritized.

    I'll just vote less so I can manually try and track my votes and hope I don't miss anything. I'd much rather spend my time gaming though, rather than clicking over and over on threads I voted on only to seek out any new posts that may or may not have been made. Or, I could ignore new comments, and take CR hits whenever they come and write it off. Honestly, I'm not really sure as to the best approach.

    I'm with The Evener, it would be nice to see TG come in with a "win" soon, even a small one. They are certainly due.


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    Updated 01-04-2020 at 11:12 AM by Max
  20. datagod's Avatar

    I would like to see effort put towards multi player submissions before a bounty system.

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