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freeko
06-02-2021 at 07:10 PM
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Explain this to me why 2 player submissions are so difficult?

I believe Allen is in the process of submitting records to the site. We played a few two player games and established records by defeating the existing scores. How do I get my name added into the submission so that we are both properly credited with having the record?

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  1. freeko's Avatar

    There are a few things in play here it seems. The first and foremost is the ability to add my name into the submissions made by my playing partner that have been submitted for approval to the adjudicators.

    As for ESI, those are both irrelevant and have no real meaning. When someone can get 800+ ESI points on a stage of angry birds for a single record. No thanks ESI, just go away. You're drunk. Empirically speaking, the ESI should work exactly the same as a one player track as you have the points being multiplied by more players above/below you in the standings then divided by the number of players in the team.

    It does seem to be a valid concern with submission points. Should the submission points be payable by both players involved? Can one player pay the whole submission cost? A minor issue at best as I think most anyone has enough submission points to submit their records with minimal issue. It might be more of a problem when it comes to the creation of 2 player tracks for games that do not presently have them.

    All in all, the core problem is that there is no current way to add my name into the submission that was made by Allen for the games that we played together. There will be more to come in the future as we identified a good number of games that we will be putting scores in going forward. It would be nice if we had a cleaner way to make the submissions going forward.

  2. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by freeko

    As for ESI, those are both irrelevant and have no real meaning.

    For you... I'm not particularly fussed about ESI myself but there are plenty of people that see ESI as something to pursue and prize.

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  3. Snowflake's Avatar

    I’m a yuge fan of console level esi is love to see genre esi or series esi

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  4. freeko's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax

    For you... I'm not particularly fussed about ESI myself but there are plenty of people that see ESI as something to pursue and prize.

    I get it with these achievements and trophies on the more recent consoles as an example. Just like ESI here, those trophies and achievements mean nothing to me. Mileage may vary for others, but its meaningless to me in the context of solving the problem that this wall entry discussion is meant to solve.

    ESI is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. I'd be fine if there was no ESI at all for runs that involve multiple players. Throw ESI in the trash where it belongs if it is too much to figure out when there is more than one player to factor for. Focus instead on making it possible to add both myself and my partner(s) into a submission so that all players are able to gain the recognition for establishing the record.

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  5. Snowflake's Avatar

    Pinball was removed from esi I imagine it’s not impossible to similarly remove two player from esi

  6. timmell's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by freeko


    I get it with these achievements and trophies on the more recent consoles as an example. Just like ESI here, those trophies and achievements mean nothing to me. Mileage may vary for others, but its meaningless to me in the context of solving the problem that this wall entry discussion is meant to solve.

    ESI is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. I'd be fine if there was no ESI at all for runs that involve multiple players. Throw ESI in the trash where it belongs if it is too much to figure out when there is more than one player to factor for. Focus instead on making it possible to add both myself and my partner(s) into a submission so that all players are able to gain the recognition for establishing the record.

    Agreed. I understand ESI was created to do more like a overall leaderboard. Which I guess it is cool. if it was calculated logically I would put more value into it. I think ESI works great within a game that has multiple tracks, for example Mario kart. But when that same number translates to over ESI. The Overall ESI and Console ESI leaderboard are way to inflated.

    LIke you said, I hope the ESI discussions/rules don't delay the impanation of a better way of submitting Multiplayer scores to the database.

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  7. freeko's Avatar

    So lets look at what I want to see changed. Add a field to allow multiple players to be added into a submission for the case of 2p or more team submissions. The submission points being paid by one or more of said team members would be nice. Maybe the cost is split between them, but that brings up fractoral points possibly, If two players split 3 submission points between them, that is 1.5 each. 4 players pay 0.75 points and so on. I guess it could remain that whoever submits as the main name pays the 3 points?

    All the rest of the side stuff is irrelevant to getting this core function working first and foremost. I will always say ESI does not matter because it is an inherently broken system. Fixing it or not is irrelevant to the core issue so the obvious compromise is to disregard ESI for multiplayer submissions in a similar fashion to how it is already ignored for pinball submissions.

    The backside credibility and submission points for making the submissions should remain as is, and I can not see how it needs to change. This seems simple at face value to add a field for extra names in a submission field. Make it happen twin galaxies.


  8. freeko's Avatar

    So I just ran into a potential issue. Is it not against TG rules to have multiple accounts? Making a shared account for the purposes of submissions involving more than one player should be against the spirit of the rules for this exact reason. There is a Rocket League submission that is being blasted because someone made a second account expressly for the purposes of making that submission.

    I am now curious as to why the submissions made by Allen are taking so long to be verified. Make a 26 hour long run, and it takes a week to verify, Make a 2 player submission and it is still just out there in limbo for no reason I can see. Is it truly that difficult to add my name to the record? There should be plenty of people around that can add this functionality to the submission fields. This has taken 10 days now and gone nowhere.

  9. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by freeko

    So I just ran into a potential issue. Is it not against TG rules to have multiple accounts?

    For a single individual, yes. For each combination of identities, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by freeko
    Making a shared account for the purposes of submissions involving more than one player should be against the spirit of the rules for this exact reason.

    Make a seperate account is legacy normality. This era of TG has not yet changed that legacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by freeko
    There is a Rocket League submission that is being blasted because someone made a second account expressly for the purposes of making that submission.

    Meh, humans. Go figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by freeko
    I am now curious as to why the submissions made by Allen are taking so long to be verified. Make a 26 hour long run, and it takes a week to verify, Make a 2 player submission and it is still just out there in limbo for no reason I can see.

    Meh, humans. Go figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by freeko
    Is it truly that difficult to add my name to the record? There should be plenty of people around that can add this functionality to the submission fields. This has taken 10 days now and gone nowhere.

    In jest: They have better priorities than brush one individual's ego?

    In all seriousness: TG hasn't yet confirmed they _will_ implement it. So it's just matching your expectations against... your expectations.

  10. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax


    In all seriousness: TG hasn't yet confirmed they _will_ implement it. So it's just matching your expectations against... your expectations.


    i believe they did confirm it would happen eventually but no conformation on timeline. however, it has been alot more then 10 days, freeko himself may have only waited 10 days but this has been discussed for the rest of us for years. other priorities are higher up. I dont think one new submission is suddenly gonna make them bump this up the priority list.

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  11. freeko's Avatar

    Its been something I had in place when I owned the place. That was almost 10 years ago at this point. It literally was a checkbox for solo/team submission and then listing everyone that was part of the submission. Other issues aside, I can not figure out why the present system is so resistant to having more than one name associated to a record.

  12. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by freeko

    Its been something I had in place when I owned the place. That was almost 10 years ago at this point. It literally was a checkbox for solo/team submission and then listing everyone that was part of the submission. Other issues aside, I can not figure out why the present system is so resistant to having more than one name associated to a record.


    you've promoted yourself quite quickly.
    you went from a guy in his underwear just watching george's q*bert run
    to a buddy of an owner
    to the head ref
    and now owner

    very impressive.

    the problem is jace has to deal with reality and cant just fantasize results ;)

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  13. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake



    you've promoted yourself quite quickly.
    you went from a guy in his underwear just watching george's q*bert run
    to a buddy of an owner
    to the head ref
    and now owner

    very impressive.

    the problem is jace has to deal with reality and cant just fantasize results ;)


    To be fair, he has mentioned his place in the history previously (not this thread). ;)

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  14. Pixe Sukola's Avatar

    Freeko I don't know if you have been ignoring my answers in Allen's submissions but I will repeat it again here. Nobody but yourself can add you as the second player of those records and it is not difficult at all. This isn't something Allen or Jace has to figure out, it's you.

    From your account, submit the same score that Allen submitted, upload the video or just copy and paste the vzaar link from Allen's score and that's it, your name will be there. It is very, very simple.

    And, where is that Angry Birds track that gives you 800+ ESi for one record? I'm very interested in it.

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  15. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax



    To be fair, he has mentioned his place in the history previously (not this thread). ;)


    yes when jace's tg was just forums and not yet adjudication he expressed his shock that as the former head ref he was never reached out to before. I've missed the claims of ownership until now though

  16. freeko's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Pixe Sukola

    Freeko I don't know if you have been ignoring my answers in Allen's submissions but I will repeat it again here. Nobody but yourself can add you as the second player of those records and it is not difficult at all. This isn't something Allen or Jace has to figure out, it's you.

    From your account, submit the same score that Allen submitted, upload the video or just copy and paste the vzaar link from Allen's score and that's it, your name will be there. It is very, very simple.

    And, where is that Angry Birds track that gives you 800+ ESi for one record? I'm very interested in it.

    I seem to have misread, but its a combination of all the tracks from Angry Birds Seasons.

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  17. timmell's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by freeko

    I seem to have misread, but its a combination of all the tracks from Angry Birds Seasons.


    Example. Angry Birds Season has a current total of ESI of 850+ with only 7 competitors/submitters.

    While Donkey Kong only has a total of ESI at 188.29 with 120 competitors/submitters.

    Why does Donkey Kong generate more ESI when it has way more competitors than Angry Birds? The Index just doesn't make sense for a total overall leaderboard.

    The ESI is not comparable what so ever between the two games. So adding the total ESI across a platform/console or the whole Twin Galaxies ESI leaderboard is meaningless.


    now if Twin Galaxies divided the GAME ESI number by the number of tracks per game. Then the ESI would be more comparable.

    Angry Birds would be a High ESI of maybe 3.04 ----- ESI / Number of tracks with more than 2 players (450 estimated) = 3.04


    And Donkey kong would be a High of ESI of 47.07. ----- ESI / Number of tracks which is 4, with more than 2 players.

  18. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by timmell



    Example. Angry Birds Season has a current total of ESI of 850+ with only 7 competitors/submitters.

    While Donkey Kong only has a total of ESI at 188.29 with 120 competitors/submitters.

    Why does Donkey Kong generate more ESI when it has way more competitors than Angry Birds? The Index just doesn't make sense for a total overall leaderboard.

    The ESI is not comparable what so ever between the two games. So adding the total ESI across a platform/console or the whole Twin Galaxies ESI leaderboard is meaningless.


    now if Twin Galaxies divided the GAME ESI number by the number of tracks per game. Then the ESI would be more comparable.

    Angry Birds would be a High ESI of maybe 3.04 ----- ESI / Number of tracks with more than 2 players (450 estimated) = 3.04


    And Donkey kong would be a High of ESI of 47.07. ----- ESI / Number of tracks which is 4, with more than 2 players.

    Objectivity matters, not subjectivity by a selection of biased individuals. For Donkey Kong to be closer to objectively comparable to Angry Birds Seasons it needs separate tracks for each of the 117 levels - which is already started...


    The other side of the coin: pick any Arcade game which is in a compilation. If the same set of people achieve the same achievements on the Arcade machine and the version in a compilation on a console: the same ESI should come forth.

    Updated 06-13-2021 at 10:48 PM by Barthax
  19. Whilethekidsareaway's Avatar

    Well I seems that there is now much more than just one person who is wanting to do 2p scores, Since Freeko and I placed ours up I have seen 26 more scores get posted (Granted by one team) but it does show either interest or just a record grab, but in either case to quote Shang Sung "IT HAS BEGUN" lol

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  20. admin staff's Avatar

    Hi All

    "IT HAS BEGUN"

    Yes we have started implementing the 2 player scores. We will have an update in 10 days .

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