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Garrett Holland
04-26-2021 at 01:50 PM
26 Comments
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TwinGalaxies process flaw

Creating this on my wall to memorialize the issue, with the additional benefit of not getting buried in the Site Issue discussion thread.

This submission was submitted on 4.19.21 at 17:56 ET.

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/230453-Arcade-FAST-AND-FURIOUS-SUPER-CARS-Central-Park-Most-Drift-Time-02-26-43-Juan-Torres

I voted no on it around 4.20.21 17:50ish.

The submission was adjudicated "VALID" on 4.20.21 18:00ish.

I attempted to dispute its acceptance around 4.20.21 18:10ish due to the incorrect time reported by the submitter.

The submitter already had a better performance accepted from last year on this leaderboard. As a result, this new submission was immediately archived the moment of its acceptance and was never shown on the leaderboard, removing any ability for anyone to dispute the outcome using the standard process of clicking the "Undisputed" link on the respective entry from the scoreboard. This is an untenable situation, where if not fixed, adjudicators will be relegated to ensure the submitter does not have an existing performance with a better result than the new submission, and ensuring that starting the dispute process on the new submission is not even possible


@admin staff Do you have a time frame estimate in which this issue will be addressed?

In the meantime, if any other member with 4K or more CR discovers a way to dispute this submission, please do so for me.

As always, thank you for your efforts!

Comments
  1. admin staff's Avatar

    Hi @Jace Hall

    Please let us know if we should delete this submission and revert the CR and SP in this situation

    ThanksGarrett Holland thanked this post
  2. Barthax's Avatar

    Some workings out...

    Interesting, the score_id for the dispute URL is not tied to the thread id (makes sense as many scores pre-date TGSAP). The score ID is also not buried in the hidden HTML of the submission thread so there's no obvious way to get to the score ID for this thread.

    The thread ID of this submission is 230453. The prior submission thread ID is one of my own, so I don't mind "messing around" with that one... https://www.twingalaxies.com/archive/index.php/t-230452.html - again the score ID needed for the dispute is not mentioned in the submission thread (expected). The dispute score ID is 315370 for my score. Incrementing didn't get to JJT's score. Decrementing got to another submission: my "Max Match [Play Packs - Starter Pack : 5x5-6x6 - Level 40 [Time]" score of 3 seconds. This is the submission immediately prior to my Midnight Club II sub thread ID: 230451.

    Incrementing the dispute ID: 315371 and 315372 are invalid IDs. Dispute ID 315373 exists but is for a score which is still in progress?! https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/230507-Xbox-360-Midway-Arcade-Origins-Joust-2-396-100-Ryan-Genno - the 230507 is no-where near the thread IDs above. Incrementing the dispute ID (315374 is invalid) gets to 315375 for submission thread 230266...

    Initial findings: there's no direct relationship between the dispute ID and the submission thread ID. Both are obviously incrementing as events transpire but the events are not tied. Presumably some event like the conclusion of a submission thread increments the dispute ID (random guess: that the dispute "invalid IDs" are for rejected subs).

    Back to the scoreboard & using Ryan's thread as an example & the 315373 is in the HTML: the LI tag for the score has the ID buried in its id parameter. Back to JJT's & there's minimal HTML for the link in the View Submissions: back to square one. :(

    Updated 04-27-2021 at 12:30 AM by Barthax
  3. Garrett Holland's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by admin staff

    Hi @Jace Hall

    Please let us know if we should delete this submission and revert the CR and SP in this situation

    While this might be a good solution for the time being, it would not prevent this from happening again, which imho is the bigger picture that will eventually need focus.

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  4. Snowflake's Avatar

    throwing out to possible solutions
    1. allow prevoiulsy accepted submisions to be disputed. Theres already an optoiin to show prevoiusly accepted and previoiulsy rejected submissions, so maybe just add the dispute button to the previously accepted as well
    2. put a check into the submission form, where if a better score exists, the new worse score is not allowed to be submitted. Be careful of course not to confuse better score with higher score, so check for "lowest is best" possibility which is a field so should be easy enough to progrmatically determine

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  5. Garrett Holland's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax

    Initial findings: there's no direct relationship between the dispute ID and the submission thread ID. Both are obviously incrementing as events transpire but the events are not tied. Presumably some event like the conclusion of a submission thread increments the dispute ID (random guess: that the dispute "invalid IDs" are for rejected subs).

    Back to the scoreboard & using Ryan's thread as an example & the 315373 is in the HTML: the LI tag for the score has the ID buried in its id parameter. Back to JJT's & there's minimal HTML for the link in the View Submissions: back to square one. :(

    I did something similar a few days ago. I checked every value from 315200 to 315400, quite a few invalids (sorry devs) and none were archived scores. I'm thinking the score id parameter drops upon archival.

  6. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Garrett Holland


    I did something similar a few days ago. I checked every value from 315200 to 315400, quite a few invalids (sorry devs) and none were archived scores. I'm thinking the score id parameter drops upon archival.

    I expect it will be in the background, just not currently accessible. If the player's higher score is successfully disputed, then the scoreboard should refelect the lower score & therefore have a dispute ID of its own - the one it had before being accepted (as Ryan's in-progress score confirms).

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  7. Garrett Holland's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake
    2. put a check into the submission form, where if a better score exists, the new worse score is not allowed to be submitted. Be careful of course not to confuse better score with higher score, so check for "lowest is best" possibility which is a field so should be easy enough to progrmatically determine

    Good thinking, but there might be negative drawbacks to this option, especially in the case of an inaccurate score being submitted and accepted, the submitter knows that a dispute is coming and will be successful, and now they won't be able to resubmit until the dispute is resolved. Granted, TG has been on the ball with disputes, but I would hate to have to count on that.

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  8. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake
    2. put a check into the submission form, where if a better score exists, the new worse score is not allowed to be submitted. Be careful of course not to confuse better score with higher score, so check for "lowest is best" possibility which is a field so should be easy enough to progrmatically determine

    I'm not following this one fully. Is the idea the tickbox is programmatically set on the form for the submitter to be notified or are they choosing something? There are typos which get through & then the lesser (correct) score should still be possible to submit while the higher (incorrect) score is still being disputed.

  9. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax


    I'm not following this one fully. Is the idea the tickbox is programmatically set on the form for the submitter to be notified or are they choosing something? There are typos which get through & then the lesser (correct) score should still be possible to submit while the higher (incorrect) score is still being disputed.


    by a "check" i didnt mean a checkbox, i meant a check is performed, the system programmatically checks. so a trigger type of check, not a select type of check

    though you and garrett both raise valid points.

    Maybe then still perform the check but just give a notification? Maybe include in the check that the check is ignored if the score is disputed? i guess if its too hard scrape it, an idea like this is only good if it saves more effort than it costs

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  10. stella_blue's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by admin staff

    Hi @Jace Hall

    Please let us know if we should delete this submission and revert the CR and SP in this situation


    Deleting a submission as if it "never happened" is a terrible idea.

    I am 100% against this "solution", as it turns the credibility system into a complete joke.



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  11. MyOwnWorstEnemy's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by stella_blue



    Deleting a submission as if it "never happened" is a terrible idea.

    I am 100% against this "solution", as it turns the credibility system into a complete joke.




    Agreed - unless its a cancel button to remove 'in progress' submissions awaiting final adjudication. Maybe the easiest way from a GUI perspective is to activate a hidden select button that will be enabled once the submission is accepted. These accepted scores can be accessed via the track leaderboard using the 'View All Submissions' http link. Or add a column in the 'View All Submissions' pop-up window.

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  12. swaggers's Avatar

    This happened to me also in the past. Was told, "Can't dispute a score that doesn't appear on the leaderboards". No way to fix a score that is no longer on the database, IE has been replaced by a better score.

    Updated 04-27-2021 at 08:30 AM by swaggers (Clarification)
  13. D.B. Cooper's Avatar

    My understanding from previous decisions is that TG's interest is in the accuracy of the scoreboard and not so much in the accuracy of our CR. From the beginning, you can only dispute scores and not submissions. If you vote yes on a submission that gets rejected, you won't ever receive your CR back. It's happened to me and I'm guessing to others as well. But you seem to have some influence on TG so maybe you can get them to change but I wouldn't count on it.

    Updated 04-27-2021 at 03:22 PM by D.B. Cooper
  14. D.B. Cooper's Avatar

    Reading back, I see this situation is a bit different in that you voted no and the submission passed so you lost CR and now you can't dispute because there is a higher score already on the scoreboard. Still think you're going to be out of luck on the grounds of not being able to dispute a submission. Will be interesting to see how this turns out.

  15. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by admin staff

    Hi @Jace Hall

    Please let us know if we should delete this submission and revert the CR and SP in this situation


    Hey @admin staff ,

    The correct solution for this is for you and team to implement the ability for previously accepted submissions to be disputed.

    As @Snowflake mentioned, theres already an option to show previously accepted submissions, so we need to implement the dispute button to the previously accepted listings.

    Thank you.

  16. D.B. Cooper's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall



    Hey @admin staff ,

    The correct solution for this is for you and team to implement the ability for previously accepted submissions to be disputed.

    As @Snowflake mentioned, theres already an option to show previously accepted submissions, so we need to implement the dispute button to the previously accepted listings.

    Thank you.

    If you're going to allow for previously accepted submissions to be disputed, why not allow for previously rejected submissions to also be disputed?

  17. stella_blue's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall

    Hey @admin staff ,

    The correct solution for this is for you and team to implement the ability for previously accepted submissions to be disputed.

    As @Snowflake mentioned, theres already an option to show previously accepted submissions, so we need to implement the dispute button to the previously accepted listings.

    Thank you.


    Hey Jace,

    How will "missing evidence" submissions be affected by your solution?

    They currently fall under 2 major categories:


    Category #1

    Accepted scores that SHOULD appear on the scoreboard, but do NOT

    This happens when a player has multiple accepted submissions for the same platform, game, and track. If the player's top score is successfully disputed, the "next best" score should automatically replace the removed item on the scoreboard. This type of dynamic scoreboard update does not occur. I have reported the problem on several occasions, and it has been acknowledged as a flaw in the dispute process.

    In my opinion, TG members should be able to dispute these submissions, as there is a scoreboard integrity issue.


    Category #2

    Accepted scores that are absent from the scoreboard, and rightfully so

    These scores have been surpassed by a better score (a valid submission from the same player)

    In my opinion, items in this category should be exempt from the dispute process, as there is NO scoreboard integrity issue.


  18. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by stella_blue

    Category #2

    Accepted scores that are absent from the scoreboard, and rightfully so

    These scores have been surpassed by a better score (a valid submission from the same player)

    In my opinion, items in this category should be exempt from the dispute process, as there is NO scoreboard integrity issue.

    If a submission can be found to have been wrongly accepted (typos or whatever) or present evidence of "wrong doing", why should it be protected if the player has a better score?

  19. Almighty Dreadlock's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by stella_blue
    Deleting a submission as if it "never happened" is a terrible idea.

    I am 100% against this "solution", as it turns the credibility system into a complete joke.

    The CR system is already a complete joke, so there'd actually be no harm done by this terrible idea. Not that I'm in favour of terrible ideas. Just observing that the CR system itself has zero credibility.
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  20. Snowflake's Avatar

    stella, i have a simliiar argument with you as barthax and a.d. but reading your comment in full context i wonder if i'm taking you too litearlly.

    anyway i'm suprirsed you'd say that considering your preivous commenet on the importance of credibility but heres how i'd see it


    allow such submission to not be disputed is not AN IMMEDIATE DIRECT threat to scoreboard integrity. however since credibilty affects voting power and voting power affects scoreboard integrity, yes i do believe its an in indirect long term scoreboard integrity issue. Current the correct voters have had their credibilty lowered making it harder for them to get the correct decision done in the future while incorrect voters have had their credibilty highered making it easier for them to damage the scoreboard integrity.

    fyi, totally agree with your first point that is a real issue as well. so i'm hoping we're just being overly literal missing your point was more relative importance or something like that

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