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Intellivision Master
01-17-2020 at 05:24 PM
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Astrosmash scores MUST be removed and moved

I've been checking out Intellivision Astrosmash:

Here's the leader-board:

1. 4,201,875

2. 797,035

3. 653,405

4. 569,835

5. 566,380

6. GLEN SAMPSON: 417,945

7. to 10. Four Others: Between 11,000 and 307,000.

If the scores above Glen were achieved at all , they were NOT done on Disc level starting speed. The book says that the highest "points level" is at 100,000 points. Which is "6X" the points compared to the points when the game starts. The book also says "at each higher point multiplier, the action increases in speed".

What the book doesn't say: Is that although the "points multiplier" maxes out at 100,000; the game also speeds up MARKEDLY at the following intervals:

200,000

300,000

400,000

** 450,000 **

500,000

600,000

700,000

800,000

900,000

1,000,000

Not one score above Glen's score was done on Disc Level. I have an asterix at 450,000 because for some strange reason, at 450,000 the game feels like it DOUBLES in speed; whereas on all other increase-level, the game increases maybe 10% to 20% faster.

It is my opinion that "if these scores were achieved by the second through fifth place leader" they were done at the SLOWEST SPEED; using Button-3 to start their games. The scores of 566,000 to 797,000 are possible on Button 3. The 4,201,875 score .... is complete nonsense in my opinion. The other 4 scores are possible on "Button 3" starting level.

Since we have no documentation to prove their starting speed, those 4 scores should be moved to another track called "Button 3". OR: Change the track to be called "Start on Button-3" or "Select any starting speed" AND remove the top score.

If you want some evidence: Glen's score is 417,000. An amazing score on Disc Level. Yet nowhere near the 797,000 alleged high-score on the game. If you look at ALL of Glen's scores in the Intellivision database, he's either at the top or 90% as high as the leader. On Astrosmash, "mysteriously", Glen has half of the alleged high-score. That makes no sense. That's great evidence. Don't take any of my scores into account. That would be biased. If you follow the ratio of all of Glen's scores in the Intellivision database, compared to his score of 417,000, the high-score on Astrosmash should be around 485,000 on Disc-Level.

I know I've said in the past "default level" should mean "disc speed" on a Mattel-made game if everything is identical on all of the starting levels except the "overall speed" of the game ... But I also said that it's a "general rule"; and that each game has to be looked at individually. On Astrosmash, on Button-3 starting level; at 450,000 points, the game is "possible" to keep going for very high-skilled players. Whereas on Disc-Level, the game is "Near Impossible" to continue after you pass 450,000. That's a MASSIVE difference.

If I had my druthers, I would remove the top score, and change the name of the track to "Start on Button-3".

I'm not looking for debates, followed by anger, followed by name-calling; followed by hostile personal attacks and hatred :) So I'm just writing an editorial here at TG regarding the "Obvious" from an experienced Intellivision player.

It's just a shame that one of the most iconic games on the Intellivision cannot be properly contested at TG.

I can start a Dispute ... but I have no way of "proving" these folks' starting level. I will add that since these five players allegedly played the game on an Intellivision console, they had to each select a starting speed to start the game. The fact that all five of them were "ok" keeping the track called "default level" is very telling to me. They were not concerned in the least of proving their starting speed. That's another indicium that they all started on "Button-3" speed. If someone achieved a score on Astrosmash on Disc Level, they would want future competitors to have to use disc-speed to start their game.

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  1. Snowflake's Avatar

    i cant prove but i have reason to believe now that all or most of intellivision "default" levles were actually users choice or easiest level, if not all most

    ron corcoran managed intellivsion, and one of the few things ron felt that i agreed with (for the time) is competition should be on easieset level. that makes sense in an era of photograph proof. with photoraph proof proving level can be tough so it makes more sense to make everything easy level since now its impossible to cheat by choosing wrong level

    if i were to guess the "default" was added much later just like the "1b" on atari games.

    heck -- and this one isnt on ron - think some of the games garrett disputed. we now know they also imported scores from magazines that allowed any level.

    so theres plenty of evidence (though not rock solid proof) that many of these older systems originally had users choice for settings

    Updated 01-17-2020 at 05:52 PM by Snowflake
  2. Intellivision Master's Avatar

    I think back then (early 80's) if someone wanted to prove they had a high score to a magazine or to TG using a screen shot, of course they would pick the speed where they could get their highest score (in some cases, including Astrosmash); they would have used button-3. I have no doubt.

    (So I am agreeing with you) !!!

    For other games like Burgertime or Tron or Lock N Chase etc... it wouldn't make much difference what speed someone uses - because as I explained a couple years ago - all the action is proportionate. It would only help a beginner (and maybe a novice) on some games to play it at a slower speed.

    But back to Astrosmash ... As I stated, there is a GROSS difference between the starting levels as to how far a player could go in the game. So Astrosmash is unique in that sense.

    I "WILL" be starting a dispute if @Jace Hall and/or the "powers that be" do not address this track. It will be left up to the community to vote !!

    I would just be requesting for the Astrosmash track to be changed to "pick your starting level".

    It would be easier if the community would kindly comment on this blog; to get your opinions. But KINDLY, KINDLY keep the opinions to Astrosmash. And try not to get sidetracked. Thank You !!!

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  3. Snowflake's Avatar

    well, i'll save my argument for the dipsute if you requrest, since i do feel the need to link it other things for consistency. i'll only elaborate on your own wall in detail if you want, since its your wall. but i do think there are simliar titles and it would be unfair to only revert the rule change back to how it used to be on one title and not others especially when theres other titles such as b-17 bomber where it matters ever bit as much.

    again, your wall, feel free to delete the comment, give me permission to discuss it more, or ask me not to go into more detail here. but if your goal is to flesh out some things here before making it into a dispute i just thought i'd let you know here ahead of time how my dispute comments would follow. i'm really fine with renaming the track, or removing the scores, or revert, really i dont care what decision is made as long as its consistent.

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  4. Intellivision Master's Avatar

    I won't be deleting anything!! Also ... for B-17 Bomber I don;t know the game as well as the others since I always felt the game was not finished LOL ... so I just "kicked around" on it. I am not qualified to comment anything on B-17 Bomber... apart from the fact that on practice level, you could do MUCH MUCH more damage than the actual game choices !! :) Regarding any other title, if anyone wants to start a new discussion ... I will be fair and open minded if I do add my own opinions !!!

    I have another commentary re Astrosmash which I will add right now below.

  5. Intellivision Master's Avatar

    I just realized that the 4 scores on the Astrosmash leader-board were done on the same day. I'm guessing it was a fun contest somewhere. All do respect to those players ... they did NOT hit those scores on disc level. In a "one-try-only" setting; with the pressure of performing .... and all four hit these INCREDIBLE scores in the same afternoon on disc level? No way.

    Can I hit those scores on disc level? "Maybe". But can these guys match "my" score? I really doubt it. I am phenomenal at this game. As I mentioned, take my score out of the discussion. Look at Glen's score. If he played on Button-3 ... he would score approximately 50% more, which is around 650,000; which fits into those scores perfectly; following his achievements on Intellivision scores. I have no doubt these were done on Button-3.


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  6. Garrett Holland's Avatar

    Well, I'm somewhat of a jerk, so if it were up to me, no vid = no did and I dont even care that vid was cost prohibitive in the 80s LOL!

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    Updated 01-17-2020 at 10:22 PM by Garrett Holland
  7. Intellivision Master's Avatar
    I feel very similar.


    Unless a score makes total sense; there's no reason to believe a score that seems out of place without video proof.


    I had to test 1,000,000 on 4-Tris. (Inty's Tetris). I got better and better and beat a mill. But I was able to prove that his score was TRUE. I couldn't confirm or deny until I worked on it.


    Those 4 Astrosmash scores WERE achieved... but on button-3 level. That 797 K.... on disc speed, he would be given a gamer of the century plaque.


    As for the 4 Mill ... I have a lot of trouble with it. I've never seen ANY evidence of a score of 2 Mill or higher. EVER. I passed one Mill on button-3 in 2017 and I lost all of my men.


    There's no videos anywhere that proves a score higher than mine. Not even a screenshot.


    I'm going to request on the “errors” page to fix the track to read “start on any level”.


    If anyone objects, please state your objection and the reasons for your objection. I'll wait a couple of weeks before making my request.


    Ps) saying “because you're a jerk” isn't a valid reason to object :)




    Quote Originally Posted by Garrett Holland
    Well, I'm somewhat of a jerk, so if it were up to me, no vid = no did and I dont even care that vid was cost prohibitive in the 80s LOL!
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  8. Jace Hall's Avatar

    I'm going to request on the “errors” page to fix the track to read “start on any level”."


    From my understanding, this would be a dispute case to prove a scoreboard error..

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  9. RTM's Avatar

    A few things...

    1st - the leaderboard score was performed by Rick Fothergill...he is accessible via Facebook in case anyone wishes to send him a question

    2nd - I checked www.archive.org as to what contests were open at that time on the TG website and an Astrosmash or Inty contest was not listed anywhere...problem was if Corcoran did so exclusively from his Snipercade site then it would be impossible to see as there is no preservation of that site within the Wayback machine

    3rd - that stated, there are two YouTube videos of relevance...one is a clip of a 360K-500K+ performance though the starting difficulty is not mentioned - and within the text of the video post it mentions claims of 9.9M elsewhere which is beyond anything even on the TG site (but no proof of course). Still, the video above is good to show relative speed increases at 400K and 450K for observation purposes

    The other is extremely brief and nearly meaningless BUT someone is claiming the aftermath of a nearly 2M score here -

  10. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Internet vid = must have did???

  11. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall



    From my understanding, this would be a dispute case to prove a scoreboard error..

    Jace, i'm not sure if you're aware of this, but even though you're answer makes sense in a vacuum, Al's plan seems appropriate if your remeber ths history

    the "disc speed" rule was added because of a wall post that Al made that dave decided to implement. Considering the rule was only added by dave due to a wall post of Als, it seems equally appropriate that reverting the rule change could be done through the same channels.

  12. Jace Hall's Avatar

    @Snowflake So the suggestion here is to remove the disc speed rule? Just making sure I understand exactly what is being asked.

    Is there a preferred wording?

  13. Snowflake's Avatar

    My suggestion would be more research. The disc speed rule is an issue, but I think like with alot of things you'll find different members have different issues. The rule change was added across the board, so theres also gonna be different opinons on reverting it across the board. not to mentoin, its tough to know if some things were disc speed all along, or if they were part of the changes dave made

    the cross the board intellivision rewrite dave did for disc speed came from equating 'default" to disc speed.
    I would suggest research for one step back ,and find when default was added and what the track truly was originally.

    i dont think that research is easy and no i dont have the answer. i have guesses (i believe things used to be users choice) but no proof.

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  14. Intellivision Master's Avatar
    It was my fault actually. A couple of years ago I was recommending that “disc speed” was used to substitute for “default” on many tracks. I did mention that I meant that as a general rule. And MOST Mattel made games had a high score using disc level anyway ... if not the top 3 or 4 scores!


    Astrosmash was certainly an exception to that rule. But somehow admin added “start with disc” (from my recommendation) before the community could debate and contribute to the decision. I was hoping to get feedback. At that exact time, there were hostilities being flung back and forth (myself included) so I removed myself to avoid any more tomatoes hitting my eyes.


    So what Snowflake and I are requesting is an amendment to the rules on this Astrosmash track to say “choose your starting level” instead of “start on disc speed”.


    That's the only change we're asking for.


    We are certain that on Astrosmash for the top 5 scores there was no requirement at that time to play the score on Disc level.


    As for the high-score... I am not certain that it's made up. I think it is... but at this point, I don't have enough information to state whether 4 Mill is possible on this game. I would recommend to keep that high score for the time being, otherwise anyone can dispute that score in the future.


    Thanks @jace hall




    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall
    @Snowflake So the suggestion here is to remove the disc speed rule? Just making sure I understand exactly what is being asked.
    Is there a preferred wording?
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  15. The Evener's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    My suggestion would be more research. The disc speed rule is an issue, but I think like with alot of things you'll find different members have different issues. The rule change was added across the board, so theres also gonna be different opinons on reverting it across the board. not to mentoin, its tough to know if some things were disc speed all along, or if they were part of the changes dave made

    the cross the board intellivision rewrite dave did for disc speed came from equating 'default" to disc speed.
    I would suggest research for one step back ,and find when default was added and what the track truly was originally.

    i dont think that research is easy and no i dont have the answer. i have guesses (i believe things used to be users choice) but no proof.


    I can't post the link now, but I came across a game settings page for Astrosmash that simply stated "default" circa 2001. Now it's about trying to find out what "default" meant in this case?

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  16. Snowflake's Avatar

    Al, i purposely tried not to speak for you by saying theres difference of opinoin, and this is one of them "we" are not asking that, you are. my request would be to revert it across the board. this track proves it was a mistake to change everyting to disc speed without proper reserach. now that we have proof it was a misteke, my feelings, is to revert only the most egregious one is akin to covering up the evidence, my desire (notice my semantics of saying 'desire' and not 'request) would be to revert them ALL

    i only stopped short of making a request(other than a request for more research) because i'm also trying to avoid an argument.

    i'm gonna do my best just to provide info, let my opinion be known, but not really push too hard. i'm worn out from years of tg arguments.

  17. Intellivision Master's Avatar
    Oh .....


    Ya. There are differences of opinion then.


    To say “across the board” is also too general. And IMO it's moot except for Astrosmash.


    But Re Astrosmash.... are we not on the same page to remove “start on disc”. My reasoning is I don't believe the top 5 scores were done on disc level.


    As a general frustration: I'll repeat what I said a few times over the years.... How the “F” does someone set up a track on TG knowing theres 4 options for a starting level and completely ignoring what level the player used to get his score?


    It's simple neglect IMO.


    B17 Bomber was not one of the suggested disc starting levels because each game level plays differently. Not just slower or faster.


    Astrosmash, the proportion of speed is not kept constant comparing starting levels.


    Night Stalker: the game will play identical regardless of starting level. Just faster or extremely slower. I just didn't want to see “start on button 3”. Its too mind-numbingly slow for me to play it... and the high score was done on disc speed. I probably would have agreed on this type to mark “choose a starting speed”. If someone wants to play 45 hours of night stalker to beat Matthew's score... go for it. Maybe Matthew would object to it for all we know.


    Same with Tron. Although button3 would give a beginner and novice player a HUGE advantage to play on a slower staring level. If you've ever seen Tron or Night Stalker on button-3, check it out. It's so slow.... I can't picture anyone wanting to play a video game that slowly. Your running man is almost frozen, It feels like your joystick is broken.


    I thought of just starting new tracks on Astrosmash ... all 4 staring speeds. But then my score will be alone on all four tracks and what significance will the current track hold?


    I never said strictly that “default” means disc level. I said “Mattel-Made games for which everything about all the starting levels is “identical” except the speed of the game. And there weren't that many titles. Burgertime has two separate tracks because this exact thing happened many years ago. ONE player beat the scores using button 3 so someone changed the track to “use button 3”. That's how we got two tracks.


    What Is your suggestion for Astrosmash?
    And if you have a beef on a different game, let's discuss that specific game.


    You mentioned B17 .... for that one, the guy obviously played on practice level. We should just add “play on practice level” to that track. There's only one score for that cart.


    If there's another specific game to discuss, let's do it.
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  18. Intellivision Master's Avatar
    If you asked me what “default” meant on Astrosmash, I would guess button3.


    The relative speed of your cannon/bullets to the enemies on the screen is NOT proportionate comparing starting speed levels. For that reason default should mean “most manageable” starting level. Especially since IMO the top 5 scores were done on button 3.
  19. Intellivision Master's Avatar
    What I remember about the debate back-when was that I was advocating that default meant “disc” and another chap was advocating that default meant “button 3”.


    (For all the titles except Astrosmash).



    But if the suggestion was “choose a starting level” I may have eventually been swayed just to keep everyone happy.


    IMO that gave the beginner or novice an unfair advantage. However, to keep everyone happy and as a compromise, I would have agreed on that.
  20. The Evener's Avatar

    Here's the link to the "default" settings for Astrosmash circa 2001 at TG (the game is listed alphabetically)

    https://web.archive.org/web/20011225192838/https://www.twingalaxies.com/cgi-perl/search_game_results_az.pl?first_letter=A&pagenum=8 &totalResults=191

    And here's a link to a 2017 discussion where someone railed against default = B ("easy") settings on the Atari 2600 - maybe there's a case to be made that "default" was another shorthand for "easiest" settings on a title?

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/174176-I-would-REALLY-like-someone-to-address-the-2600-defaults

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    Updated 01-18-2020 at 01:21 PM by The Evener
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