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Intellivision Master
01-17-2020 at 06:24 PM
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Astrosmash scores MUST be removed and moved

I've been checking out Intellivision Astrosmash:

Here's the leader-board:

1. 4,201,875

2. 797,035

3. 653,405

4. 569,835

5. 566,380

6. GLEN SAMPSON: 417,945

7. to 10. Four Others: Between 11,000 and 307,000.

If the scores above Glen were achieved at all , they were NOT done on Disc level starting speed. The book says that the highest "points level" is at 100,000 points. Which is "6X" the points compared to the points when the game starts. The book also says "at each higher point multiplier, the action increases in speed".

What the book doesn't say: Is that although the "points multiplier" maxes out at 100,000; the game also speeds up MARKEDLY at the following intervals:

200,000

300,000

400,000

** 450,000 **

500,000

600,000

700,000

800,000

900,000

1,000,000

Not one score above Glen's score was done on Disc Level. I have an asterix at 450,000 because for some strange reason, at 450,000 the game feels like it DOUBLES in speed; whereas on all other increase-level, the game increases maybe 10% to 20% faster.

It is my opinion that "if these scores were achieved by the second through fifth place leader" they were done at the SLOWEST SPEED; using Button-3 to start their games. The scores of 566,000 to 797,000 are possible on Button 3. The 4,201,875 score .... is complete nonsense in my opinion. The other 4 scores are possible on "Button 3" starting level.

Since we have no documentation to prove their starting speed, those 4 scores should be moved to another track called "Button 3". OR: Change the track to be called "Start on Button-3" or "Select any starting speed" AND remove the top score.

If you want some evidence: Glen's score is 417,000. An amazing score on Disc Level. Yet nowhere near the 797,000 alleged high-score on the game. If you look at ALL of Glen's scores in the Intellivision database, he's either at the top or 90% as high as the leader. On Astrosmash, "mysteriously", Glen has half of the alleged high-score. That makes no sense. That's great evidence. Don't take any of my scores into account. That would be biased. If you follow the ratio of all of Glen's scores in the Intellivision database, compared to his score of 417,000, the high-score on Astrosmash should be around 485,000 on Disc-Level.

I know I've said in the past "default level" should mean "disc speed" on a Mattel-made game if everything is identical on all of the starting levels except the "overall speed" of the game ... But I also said that it's a "general rule"; and that each game has to be looked at individually. On Astrosmash, on Button-3 starting level; at 450,000 points, the game is "possible" to keep going for very high-skilled players. Whereas on Disc-Level, the game is "Near Impossible" to continue after you pass 450,000. That's a MASSIVE difference.

If I had my druthers, I would remove the top score, and change the name of the track to "Start on Button-3".

I'm not looking for debates, followed by anger, followed by name-calling; followed by hostile personal attacks and hatred :) So I'm just writing an editorial here at TG regarding the "Obvious" from an experienced Intellivision player.

It's just a shame that one of the most iconic games on the Intellivision cannot be properly contested at TG.

I can start a Dispute ... but I have no way of "proving" these folks' starting level. I will add that since these five players allegedly played the game on an Intellivision console, they had to each select a starting speed to start the game. The fact that all five of them were "ok" keeping the track called "default level" is very telling to me. They were not concerned in the least of proving their starting speed. That's another indicium that they all started on "Button-3" speed. If someone achieved a score on Astrosmash on Disc Level, they would want future competitors to have to use disc-speed to start their game.

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  1. Intellivision Master's Avatar
    Oh my gosh... it's ironic... that when I was pressed so hard at one point, I remember saying almost word-for-word what this guy said.


    I was advocating “why would we be contesting on the kiddy level”? I even said “in Olympic swimming, we don't use the baby pool to compare who is faster” LOL !!!!


    Like it or hate it - it's a valid argument.


    The way I see it, if a person has mastered a game, he / she wants to compete on the high speed level (like at the olympics). If a person is new to a game, that person would want to use “whatever level gives him the higher score”. LOL.


    But to answer the question “what did TG mean by “default level” on an Intellivision game....


    If you ask an “Intellivision player” like myself... default means disc level. On a game like Burgertime, Tron, Lock N Chase, Night Stalker etc.... the disc level is the game that the programmer intended. Including Astrosmash. And the slower speeds were intended for practice, or for a younger sibling or an aunt who just can't cope with the speed of the disc speed. There's no question in my mind... that default means “disc level” for those games. As for “what speed did those players actually use to play the game?” That's a different question !!!


    And further, just because a player can get a higher score on a slower level doesn't make that level the default.


    What did TG mean by “default” if it's being played by a non-Intellivision player whose not familiar with “the speed the programmer intended” theory ... or just doesn't agree with the theory?


    Answer: Nothing!!


    It's my opinion that someone entered a generic term in that box on the computer... and players submitted scores on whatever speed they felt like playing. (Likely the one that gave them the most points).


    If the chap who entered “default” on all those titles knew what he was doing, he would know better to SPECIFY what game speed the player should use.


    The test should be to simply compare what level the players used on their scores in the database.


    Maybe we're just all on a different page and I'm not making any sense to some.


    It would have been really simple if a player submitted a score using button 2... then just file it under “button 2”. Was that too hard to do back then? I guess it was. The fact that we have to debate this at all is ridiculous.








    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener
    Here's the link to the "default" settings for Astrosmash circa 2001 at TG (the game is listed alphabetically)
    https://web.archive.org/web/20011225...talResults=191
    And here's a link to a 2017 discussion where someone railed against default = B ("easy") settings on the Atari 2600 - maybe there's a case to be made that "default" was another shorthand for "easiest" settings on a title?
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...-2600-defaults
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  2. Snowflake's Avatar

    skimmed comments might need to give a more detailed replay later, but i think part of the "different page" i better understand now, as two points that are both true, but get confused for arguing with each when its really just two different issues that sound simliar.

    I think the two questions are
    1. What DID twin galaxies do
    2. What SHOUD it have done

    Al, I think you've been answering what it SHOULD have done. And after playing intellivision, i can agree that it seems very obvious "disc" was default, at least in most games. some games require you choose a level, and at that point i cant conclude anything is default.

    I (and i think the others the dissented) have been focusing on what DID twin galaxies do, and then for consistency, regardless of what would've been better, keep the tracks the same.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (snowflake speech taling about stuff that might not matter following in this part)
    for "should" part, even that i think has two sides -- but only cause of the time period. Its way harder to cheat and sneak in wrong levels if easy is allowed. Its way harder for TG mass imports from magazines to be "wrong" if "any setting" or "easiest" is allowed. i think thats really the strongest arguments in favor of easy mode, they needed easy mode to make up for other deficiencies that TGSAP does not have, but they very mcuh had those defeciencies, and easy mode or users choice was good work around

    as for the other side, there is historical stuff backing you up. Think of how the moment something became marathonable they'd try to add rules to preven it from 'degenerating" into a marathon. 5 life settings. harder settings. sometiems even 1 life settings. hey, if you're just gonna make a new track with harder settings later anyway, why not skip to the chase and just do it from the get go? making tracks on easy mode, just to shortly later make parallel tracks since everyone can marathon it definitely seems counter productive so i think thats a strong argument in your favor that applies even today

    of course this is just me not being able to stay on point and needing to go into detail on every sub point. this is all "should" and not "was".

  3. Snowflake's Avatar

    oh dang, actually not so different a page after all. reading your last comment in detail i think i 100% agree with everything you said there

  4. Snowflake's Avatar

    @INt">@Intellivision Master i think i need an analogy to explain my stance, cause you're right, i do agree the astrosmash track needs changed as you say, so i can see it seem like i'm contradicitng myself when i say all or nothing. let me try to explain. A huge mistake, is obvious and can be fixed. A small mistake in many ways is worse than a huge mistake since it goes unseen and unfixed. My fear is, since the issue on astrosmsh and b-17 bomber is so huge, it can easily be seen, but fixing just those obvious ones will result in people forgetting about the underlying issue and as a result future generations never get around to fixing the smaller erros. By waiting to treat it as one big problem and get all the mucked up tracks together i think helps more. Its simliar to why we strip all scores of a cheater and not just the bad ones. if you removed just the bad ones you'd be helping the cheater since noone would know anymore that he cheated. but if you leave the obvious fake scores on the boar,d everyone knows hes a cheater and knows not to trust the others scores too. I think the worst thing you can do with a cheater is just remove the obviously fake scors. eitehr remove them all or keep them all. and yes, i think keeping all the cheaters scores actually is better than removing just the obvious fake, cause of we keep all the scores everyone knows he's a cheater and so his other fake scores that are harder to prove are known by all to be not trust.

    its simliar to me here. of course i agree the astrosmash track is an issue i'm just afraid that a half measure fix will result in other smaller fixes never being made

  5. Snowflake's Avatar

    damn it i forgot the wall bug where two tags results in everything in between being deleted so my entire post to jason (cant risk tagging him again) got deleted. @Jace Hall this is a really obnoxious bug that wipes out alot of typing and though

    anyway, jason what i told you that the bug wiped out was:
    "yes the atari is a mess. but thats its own conversation. Fortunatley the majority of games on atari 1b, easy, and default all mean the same thing. however, when some moron tried to be a hero and added default 1/b to everything i did make a difference on some tracks. one good example is heman where A means level 1 and b means level 3, so 1/b mean "1 no wait i mean 3" the rules literallhy contradict. there are other games like pacman where 1b is neither the default nor the easiest. but thats its own conversation and has been had a few times. also the atari 5200 i know some users choice levels were also changed into "default". So the only connection betwen those systems and the intellivision is i woudl say it shows TG's revisionist history of someone trying to be a hero but instead making things worse. so we cant assume the rules there now are what the rules always were or always intended to be. likewise, though, point of caution, in undoing the would be heros damage i dont think we want to make the same mistake of being so quick to be heroes ourselves that we also make things worse."

  6. Intellivision Master's Avatar
    On B17 Bomber, they had a track called “default”. On B17 Bomber, “default” doesn't mean anything. There's 6 different challenges on that game.


    It's like asking someone to pass you the default color from a bag of different coloured lollipops.



    Someone submitted a score using practice level. The referee who entered it placed the score on a track that says “default” instead of changing the name of the track to “practice”. That shows me that the referee doesn't know anything about B17 Bomber and likely doesn't understand how the Intellivision works.


    I put ZERO stock into trying to figure out what someone meant by “default”.
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  7. lexmark's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Intellivision Master

    I just realized that the 4 scores on the Astrosmash leader-board were done on the same day. I'm guessing it was a fun contest somewhere.


    FYI. The scores didn't necessarily have to have been done on the same day or same location. It's possible that the dates are the date that the scores were entered into TG's database. Theres a few such examples scattered around the leaderboards.


    john

    .

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  8. Intellivision Master's Avatar
    Thanks! I didn't realize that!




    Quote Originally Posted by lexmark
    Quote Originally Posted by Intellivision Master
    I just realized that the 4 scores on the Astrosmash leader-board were done on the same day. I'm guessing it was a fun contest somewhere.

    FYI. The scores didn't necessarily have to have been done on the same day or same location. It's possible that the dates are the date that the scores were entered into TG's database. Theres a few such examples scattered around the leaderboards.


    john
    .
  9. The Evener's Avatar

    Here are the Intellivision submission rules for TG/Snipercade - earliest snapshot is 2001 which addresses Rick's score - it requires players to submit on the easiest settings. Note that there is an "addendum" in 1999 so these rules date from at least that time, if not a few years earlier

    https://web.archive.org/web/20011130061404/http://www.snipercade.com/intellivision/submit.html



    Updated 01-19-2020 at 12:08 PM by The Evener
  10. Jace Hall's Avatar

    There seems to be some contradictory suggestions here.

    Can someone please clarify exactly what is being requested?

    Specific language would be helpful.

    Many thanks!

  11. Snowflake's Avatar

    jace, as we're talking about rules, history and getting things correct this isnt just opinion its a matter of accuracy. Does such a "request' require unanimous community input, or re you an admin able to look into this and determine the proper course?

    Al, i'm trying to think how i can compromise. if you read my earlier post you know i'm fine with your request i just fear it will lead to other issues bieng ignored, so i can join in just requesting astrosmash be fixed as long as theres agreement that a good faith effort will be made to fix other scores. also, since we know when "default = disc speed" was added, those were tgsap and i would hope we can agree to revert those. I'm nt saying call it easiest or disc, i'm just saying go back to "default" that sure brings back confusion but thats good in that it means tg now is no longer leading to people think we're more sure of the rules than we are. as long as things say "default" like they used to they'll always be the question of "what does default mean on this track in particluar" and they can be solved one by one. Also, intellivision doenst usually have one hit wonders, its usually mass submitters who i think can keep up on this conufsion. what do you think?

  12. Intellivision Master's Avatar

    I think we can keep up.

    I do agree on 'fixing' Astrosmash with the caveat to work with you to amend descriptions of rules for other titles.

    There are not that many in this category (Mattel-made games for which Disc, Button 1, Button 2 and Button 3 are the exact same game except Disc level is fastest speed leading to button 3; slow-motion speed).

    I do think that the rest of the games in this type of category need to be looked at "individually" instead of just reverting all games back that were changed to "Start on Disc". For that reason, I would suggest working on each title, one by one (the order initiated by you if you like).

    And don't think I'm going to go on and on fighting for disc speed. My main beef in early 2018 was that I was opposed to changing them all to "use button-3". What I'm saying is .. if it remains "appropriate" to have "Disc speed", we should just leave it. For example ... if there's only 3 scores and we all used Disc speed to play it. There's only 8 to 10 titles so let's do them individually. It won't take long.

    Is that cool?

    @Jace Hall : I have a very simple recommendation for Astrosmash that I will post below. And let's get Snowflake's opinion whether he agrees.

  13. Intellivision Master's Avatar

    Evener ... this post that you found is INVALUABLE. Thanks a lot !! It confirms my suspicions.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener

    Here are the Intellivision submission rules for TG/Snipercade - earliest snapshot is 2001 which addresses Rick's score - it requires players to submit on the easiest settings. Note that there is an "addendum" in 1999 so these rules date from at least that time, if not a few years earlier

    https://web.archive.org/web/20011130061404/http://www.snipercade.com/intellivision/submit.html



  14. Snowflake's Avatar

    if we know what every score was played on, then sure, i dont care what the rules were originally were or might have been or whatever, i just care that everyone palys on the same rules. so yeah, if for example theres a game that was changed to disc speed and we know that everyone on that track used disc speed cause they were all submitted after the change for example, then i have zero problem with leaving it as saying disc speed.

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  15. Snowflake's Avatar

    on and once this is flushed out i intend to make a forum post that links to this for more permanence. when the times comes to fix atari 5200, 400, and 2600 the stuff done here will help explain to people down the road why the current "default" settings on those systems need reexamination as well. not to derail this thread, but i stronlgy believe frogger on the atari 400 used to allow the easier setting and one person had an easy score unfortunatley rejected as a result of the current rules.

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  16. Snowflake's Avatar

    Al do you have a list of all games were "default" was changed to disc speed? also do you have a list of specific titles youd like to look at

    oh and i didnt realize the push for "disc speed" was a lesser or two evils, i didnt realize it came from you objection everyting being changed on "speed 3". yes, changing all default to speed 3 is even worse. i mean sure, by being easier it lets us all compete without being at a disadvantage, but ug, well i wont go on with all the issues with that option since i think we all agree. my preference was no change. but if we were forced to have a change and it was either speed 3 or disc then i see your point.

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  17. Intellivision Master's Avatar

    Ok with this new information ... the players that placed 1 through 5 were able to submit a screenshot; and there obviously were no rules re: pausing. Also, the rules state "choose your own level - even 'easiest level' if you like". It would make no sense for them to submit a score using disc speed; which is 20 times harder than button 3.

    This confirms my suspicion that these scores were all done on button 3.

    I would recommend now to keep the track called "default" and in the rules, to state "use button-3 to start your game or any more difficult starting speed level".

    (To match the rules that they had to use).

    What do you think? And what do you think about the pause rule? They were allowed to pause and undoubtedly, Rick paused his game during his 14 hour run to 4.2 Million? (or however long he played).

    (unlimited Pausing allowed on this track)? I would rather see scores kept in the database as much as possible - not just throw them out because they don't conform to today's rules ! Also, Rick earned that immortal score, so I would like to see the score remain.

    Garrett and Glen could re-submit their scores at their leisure with the new amended rules.

  18. Intellivision Master's Avatar

    And yes! refer to this thread to start working on new consoles if you like !!

  19. Intellivision Master's Avatar

    I'll post the list of games tonight !!

  20. Snowflake's Avatar

    the pause is a much more complicated question unfortunately. Under any system, theres always rules violations that cant be caught. we know tg had global rules for breaks in marathons. so yes of course you're right if a player paused nooone would know, but if the player admitted to the pause the score would likely be removed. i thnk it makes for a real grey area where i suspect pauses were outlawed, but people used them anyway. because of this i'd rather just not saying anything about pauses either way, submit with a pause if you like, provide all this history, and let adjudicators set the precedent.

    as for ruling to make it players choice, i agree, i'm not gonna argue wording, yours is fine. i'd have probably just said "any difficulty setting/speed is allowed" but at this point we really are just discussing semantics and is long as its clear whats meant thats all that matters

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