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Jace Hall
05-23-2022 at 04:14 PM
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TG Top Priorities...

Wanted to get some community perspective on this.

Please list what YOU think TG's TOP 3 priorities should be for the next 3 months.

For clarity, my asking this does not mean that TG will necessarily agree with the prioritization presented, but regardless - What is YOUR opinion?

Let's go! :)


Comments
  1. Excelliron's Avatar

    Ok here's something needs fixed Ive not seen anyone else mention;
    Used to be we had two places where members could upload a profile pic. I'll call the first one "primary pic" and the other one "secondary pic". Our primary pic is the one we all use today as our normal profile picture. This can be seen on our personal profile pages as well as accompanying comments like in this very thread how we all have our pic appearing next to our comment.
    Somewhere along the line TG did away with the ability to upload the secondary pic, but there's still many remnants from this on the website. For one, whenever one makes a wall post the picture that should accompany the post is always a dead link, as seen here:


    Another area where the secondary pic has remained is the 'Vote on Performances' page at the top of the screen on the sliding bar of past and present submissions. The pictures it uses are not our current profile pics, but those old secondary pics which we no longer have control over. Example; you can see here the middle submission in that bar at the top is mine, but its not the picture I now use as my profile picture:


    If its not obvious, I propose linking our Wall Post pictures and our sliding Bar submission pictures with our normal profile pictures and getting rid of the last remnants of that secondary picture thing.


    So lets see, just to wrap it all up in one place my 3 suggestions are:
    1) Fix the profile pic issues mentioned above
    2) A more active YouTube and Twitch presence (w/ focus on drawing in new members)
    3) More blocking capability than we presently have, maybe options to ignore or turn off notifications for certain things/people/games.

    Thanksdatagod, Jace Hall, admin staff thanked this post
  2. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by timmell

    How about adding Oculus to the platform list?

    Added

    Thanksdatagod thanked this post
  3. OOO's Avatar

    Hi Jace,


    Here’s my feedback, and thanks for asking …


    A. Jace Hall:
    Would the community be opposed to TG deleting any proposed Track that is unfunded after 90 days?


    I would suggest after 120 days, as the track has been abandoned. The creator has enough time to fund the track themselves. As the program is currently written , the proposed track will remain active forever, meaning users will keep seeing this track for many years, unless someone then manually deactivates the track by a request to TG. The TG system needs to be automated, as there are millions of records in the TG database that we don’t want to have to manage manually, which costs extra money to TG in labor for extra manual work.


    B. Jace Hall:
    I understand the concept above, however I am not convinced that historical submissions should act as an ongoing automatic backlog replacement list for a player when the player's current occupying score is disputed successfully.


    As many like stella_blue, Blackflag82, Excelliron and others have mentioned, and I agree with them, you must have an automated historical scoreboard system. The program needs to handle 3 main removed scenarios.


    1. A gamer is disqualified and all of their accepted scores are removed from all scoreboards. The database should record “Disqualified” for all of these records, and against the gamer record.


    2. A game submission is rejected and only that score is removed from the scoreboard. If the same gamer has any other accepted scores on that game scoreboard, it still is valid for the scoreboard. The database should record “Rejection” for this record.


    3. A gamer requests all of their scores to be removed from all scoreboards. The database should record “Requested” for all of these records, and against the gamer record. I would not expect a gamer requests just one of their records removed and not their others, but you may need to consider this, and whether this is allowed.


    The scoreboard calculations should all be automated when action is taken at TG for any of the above 3 cases. TG must review, that if case 2 occurs, then perhaps case 1 must also be implemented. (Members can only raise disputes of a score submission, and cannot raise a dispute to disqualify a gamer). Removed above means the record is still in the database and not deleted, they are just not valid for the scoreboard calculations.


    The TG scoreboard ranking is currently working fine, without the issues of score rejections and player disqualifications. How you want tournament scoreboards to work needs to be clarified.


    C. Jace Hall:
    Please list what YOU think TG's TOP 3 priorities should be for the next 3 months. For clarity, my asking this does not mean that TG will necessarily agree with the prioritization presented, but regardless - What is YOUR opinion? Let's go! :)

    Here’s my IMO …


    1. You need to get out there and make Twin Galaxies important and omnipresent again. You need to visit shows, talk to the media, hype the gaming world, get your stories into publications, be on the news, and promote: 1. TG, 2. The gamers, and 3. The gaming culture. Provide the TG Certificates to members properly (I can offer a solution). Tournaments at TG in the longer term may increase participation, but may not have such a great impact. Bounties need to be generic, eg break any world record, otherwise you will be targeting individuals and create animosity and questioning of why you chose that record or person. As you stated, and I quote you, “let’s go :)”.

    2. Create the TG Leadership Team. A number of members and other qualified people can provide some great direction and support for TG. This is only if you are open to having people help TG and yourself to be a more successful, vibrant, relevant and growing organization. You mentioned a ZOOM conference to kick things off for dialogue, well this channel of communication can be used for the TG LT as well. People are willing to help, the question is, are you willing to allow people to help TG? You will need agreements to be made and confidentiality to be kept, which should not be a barrier to proceed.

    3. Plan for the annual Twin Galaxies World Championship event. I suggested previously, and with Excelliron, that I could run the event, or you can get someone else to run the event. We’d invite the best gamers from the USA, and the rest of the world to compete in this stellar occasion. Media, games, gamers, spotlight, history, tradition, and a new age are all up for grabs. It would be a great convergence for members and the world to meet and play at this fantastic event. I would include arcade, console and pinball in the competition if possible, to help satisfy all members at TG, and the gaming world interest.


    Thanks for being able to post my IMO. I hope you respond, like you do with all your other favorite members ... :)

    Cheers
    Paul

    LikesEvan, Excelliron liked this post
    Updated 06-09-2022 at 11:10 PM by OOO
  4. timmell's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall


    Added


    BOOM!

  5. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by OOO
    As many like stella_blue, Blackflag82, Excelliron and others have mentioned, and I agree with them, you must have an automated historical scoreboard system. The program needs to handle 3 main removed scenarios.

    Agreed that history should be preserved. Not fully convinced they all have to be packed into one leaderboard or necessarily front facing.

    Quote Originally Posted by OOO
    1. A gamer is disqualified and all of their accepted scores are removed from all scoreboards. The database should record “Disqualified” for all of these records, and against the gamer record.

    Interesting idea, however that's not how it currently works for specific global reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by OOO
    2. A game submission is rejected and only that score is removed from the scoreboard. If the same gamer has any other accepted scores on that game scoreboard, it still is valid for the scoreboard. The database should record “Rejection” for this record.

    This is the issue we are currently discussing. I am not convinced that this suggestion is the superior solution as it may create its own set of problems that can be worse than the utility it is trying to provide. There is more thinking on this to be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by OOO
    3. A gamer requests all of their scores to be removed from all scoreboards. The database should record “Requested” for all of these records, and against the gamer record. I would not expect a gamer requests just one of their records removed and not their others, but you may need to consider this, and whether this is allowed.

    This does not make sense to me.

    Let's take what you say here and just make one simple change and see if it makes sense to you:

    "An Olympic Competitor/NFL Player/MLB Player requests all of their scores to be removed from all Olympic/NFL/MLB scoreboards and stat records. The Olympic/NFL/MLB databases should record “Requested” for all of these records, and against the participant record."

    Does that make sense to you? I'm not sure a removal based on a personal request as you suggest would ever be considered by the above organizations. Once a participant chooses to participate for the purpose of public competition and acknowledgement, and requires time and effort from other people to achieve that acknowledgement, there is no "undo" function. The public participation is something that actually happened and was documented.

    As such, there can be no "case 3."

    Quote Originally Posted by OOO

    The scoreboard calculations should all be automated when action is taken at TG for any of the above 3 cases. TG must review, that if case 2 occurs, then perhaps case 1 must also be implemented. (Members can only raise disputes of a score submission, and cannot raise a dispute to disqualify a gamer). Removed above means the record is still in the database and not deleted, they are just not valid for the scoreboard calculations.

    I appreciate the core elements of what you are trying to communicate about your theoretical 3 cases.


    Quote Originally Posted by OOO

    1. You need to get out there and make Twin Galaxies important and omnipresent again. You need to visit shows, talk to the media, hype the gaming world, get your stories into publications, be on the news, and promote: 1. TG, 2. The gamers, and 3. The gaming culture. Provide the TG Certificates to members properly (I can offer a solution). Tournaments at TG in the longer term may increase participation, but may not have such a great impact. Bounties need to be generic, eg break any world record, otherwise you will be targeting individuals and create animosity and questioning of why you chose that record or person. As you stated, and I quote you, “let’s go :)”.

    Agreed that TG needs to increase its achievement promotion. It will. As you may be aware, it is already doing that on Facebook and other social media platforms and is reaching millions of people. Certainly there is more to do, but that is a decent baby step.

    TG will not attempt to increase its promotions further until it has made more progress on the TG general relevancy position in the market. TG's niche must be expanded to include more. We are working on some ideas on how to achieve greater relevancy and certainly a functional bounty system can be the core of this, as it can widen the focus away from only world record pursuits by recognizing that milestone or other kinds of gameplay achievements are worth pursing as well.

    You will see a lot of progress on advancing TG in this general area this year.

    Quote Originally Posted by OOO
    2. Create the TG Leadership Team. A number of members and other qualified people can provide some great direction and support for TG. This is only if you are open to having people help TG and yourself to be a more successful, vibrant, relevant and growing organization. You mentioned a ZOOM conference to kick things off for dialogue, well this channel of communication can be used for the TG LT as well. People are willing to help, the question is, are you willing to allow people to help TG? You will need agreements to be made and confidentiality to be kept, which should not be a barrier to proceed.

    There have already been "TG Leadership Teams" in the past. It has been my observations that such efforts may create more problems than it solves. TG is not particularly interested in "anointing" a group of non-employees and granting guiding authority. Favoritism is to be avoided as much as possible. All voices should be heard if possible.

    Certainly, like any other platform, the community itself can decide to self-organize on its own and make its collective desires known to TG as needed for consideration. Nothing wrong with that, but TG itself is not going to get into those kind of politics or interests. Remember, at its core, TG is a platform that provides tools and facility for score authentication and data reference/storage of achievement.

    Quote Originally Posted by OOO
    3. Plan for the annual Twin Galaxies World Championship event. I suggested previously, and with Excelliron, that I could run the event, or you can get someone else to run the event. We’d invite the best gamers from the USA, and the rest of the world to compete in this stellar occasion. Media, games, gamers, spotlight, history, tradition, and a new age are all up for grabs. It would be a great convergence for members and the world to meet and play at this fantastic event. I would include arcade, console and pinball in the competition if possible, to help satisfy all members at TG, and the gaming world interest.

    It is completely agreed that such a thing should exist and be worked toward. What you are suggesting is not inexpensive if it is to be done correctly, and I would not want to engage with something like this until item #1 is better addressed first - as that is directly correlated with this item #3.

    Quote Originally Posted by OOO
    Thanks for being able to post my IMO. I hope you respond, like you do with all your other favorite members ... :)

    Cheers
    Paul

    I don't have favorites. All are equal here.


    Updated 06-12-2022 at 04:23 AM by Jace Hall
  6. Blackflag82's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall

    Ok. I do understand what you are saying. However I am not sure if you are considering some of the implications that come with auto-populating leaderboards with historic score submissions. There are many concerns generated by auto-population of historic scores. Here is a simple one - Imagine this scenario:

    You look at the Can Kicker leaderboard. John holds #1 position at 1 Million. You manage a run of 950k and you notice that something is wrong with John's 1 Million performance.

    You dispute John's 1 Million and the score is removed!

    - Expecting to be in the #1 position now you reload the leaderboard, only to find John's 999,999 point score he previously submitted in the #1 position because TG auto-populated his previous submission upon removal of his 1 Million point score.

    You notice the same problem with the 999,999 point score. So you dispute that. A number of days go by and the score is eventually removed!

    - Expecting to be in the #1 position now you reload the leaderboard, only to find John's 999,998 point score he previously submitted in the #1 position because TG auto-populated his previous submission upon removal of his 999,999 point score.

    You notice the same problem with the 999,998 point score. So you dispute that. Days go by and the score is removed!

    - Expecting to be in the #1 position now you reload the leaderboard, only to find John's 999,997 point score he previously submitted in the #1 position because TG auto-populated his previous submission upon removal of his 999,998 point score.

    REPEAT.

    It seems like the above example could largely be fixed by adding dispute ability to accepted but non-forward facing scores (something which has been asked for before)...

    My guess is that as the site grows, more issues will arise regarding blind voters voting in a score that can't be disputed because the correct score has already been submitted and accepted (a scenario that has actually already happened).

    While the scenario you outline above could be frustrating for someone, the assumption that all scores would need dispute could be fixed with dispute capabilities added to all accepted scores, but your scenario doesn't address perfectly legit scores that are never reinstated because of boundary pushing on a title (something that should be happening) and/or blind voting.

    As an example, John submits 1.5 million to Cankicker. He is using a technique that initially seems fine, but on further discussion seems less clear. During that process, his score goes through. The score is disputed, the conversation continues, and the score is removed. Now all his other scores that did not use the tactic are also removed and John's place as the best Cankicker player ever is completely erased.

    Example #2, John submits a new high score but his finger slips and he hits a 9 where there should have been a zero. He hits submit and doesn't realize it. Someone mentions this, but alas, the blind voters have already descended like flies to s*** and cause the score to go through. John starts the dispute and It easily goes through. But *poof* all his scores are gone and it's as though John never played Cankicker.

    So blind voting could literally begin to reshape the leaderboards as the site grows.

    Personally, the above seem like bigger issues to me that the potential "infinite" (more likely to be a handful) of scores that might all need dispute on a title.





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  7. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackflag82

    It seems like the above example could largely be fixed by adding dispute ability to accepted but non-forward facing scores (something which has been asked for before)...

    Agreed. However this is not a non-trival task. Definitely part of the stuff I'm thinking through though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackflag82

    My guess is that as the site grows, more issues will arise regarding blind voters voting in a score that can't be disputed because the correct score has already been submitted and accepted (a scenario that has actually already happened).

    Valid point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackflag82

    While the scenario you outline above could be frustrating for someone, the assumption that all scores would need dispute could be fixed with dispute capabilities added to all accepted scores, but your scenario doesn't address perfectly legit scores that are never reinstated because of boundary pushing on a title (something that should be happening) and/or blind voting.

    It does address it, but not in detail. I believe I did mention that the score would need to be resubmitted.

    Here is a more detailed description of the thought: The legit score that was moved off the leaderboard when that player chose to submit a higher score as representative of their "best" would need to be resubmitted by the player. TG would need to make a resubmit button that would push the score back on to the leaderboard. It would not need to be voted on as it was already authenticated previously.

    Essentially the difference here is TG auto-resubmitting vs. conscious player controlled resubmitting of a score that was replaced by a better submission.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackflag82

    As an example, John submits 1.5 million to Cankicker. He is using a technique that initially seems fine, but on further discussion seems less clear. During that process, his score goes through. The score is disputed, the conversation continues, and the score is removed. Now all his other scores that did not use the tactic are also removed and John's place as the best Cankicker player ever is completely erased.

    Example #2, John submits a new high score but his finger slips and he hits a 9 where there should have been a zero. He hits submit and doesn't realize it. Someone mentions this, but alas, the blind voters have already descended like flies to s*** and cause the score to go through. John starts the dispute and It easily goes through. But *poof* all his scores are gone and it's as though John never played Cankicker.

    So blind voting could literally begin to reshape the leaderboards as the site grows.

    Personally, the above seem like bigger issues to me that the potential "infinite" (more likely to be a handful) of scores that might all need dispute on a title.

    Good examples and I do understand them. Again, what I am mainly thinking about here is whether or not the scores should auto-resubmit or if it is better for it to be manually resubmitted to the leaderboard by the competitor.


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  8. Almighty Dreadlock's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall
    However this is not a non-trival task.


    It's a trivial task?

  9. Blackflag82's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall

    Here is a more detailed description of the thought: The legit score that was moved off the leaderboard when that player chose to submit a higher score as representative of their "best" would need to be resubmitted by the player. TG would need to make a resubmit button that would push the score back on to the leaderboard. It would not need to be voted on as it was already authenticated previously.

    Essentially the difference here is TG auto-resubmitting vs. conscious player controlled resubmitting of a score that was replaced by a better submission.

    This makes a bit more sense to me. I was under the impression until you wrote the above that a player would fully need to resubmit and have it adjudicated which has a host of issues around individual preservation which have historically proven difficult (damaged hard drives, corrupted files, accidental erasure, changing formats, etc...). A process that recognizes previous adjudication alleviates a number of my concerns.

    I still think it creates a hole with non-active or deceased participants in that they will not be able to resubmit. Not sure of a way to overcome that in a non-automated scenario, but perhaps there is?

  10. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Almighty Dreadlock
    It's a trivial task?

    LOL. YOUR RIGHT. I've been up all night so have some mercy.

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  11. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackflag82

    I still think it creates a hole with non-active or deceased participants in that they will not be able to resubmit. Not sure of a way to overcome that in a non-automated scenario, but perhaps there is?

    Nothing is going to be perfect but its definitely these types of things that make it important to think things through before running off in a direction.

  12. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Had a discussion with engineering about all the issues and it currently looks like we are likely to go the auto-populating route.

    Thanks to all for helping me think about this matter from all the angles!

    Onward.

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  13. Excelliron's Avatar

    "TG will not attempt to increase its promotions further until it has made more progress on the TG general relevancy position in the market. TG's niche must be expanded to include more. We are working on some ideas on how to achieve greater relevancy..."

    In my mind the reason TG isnt bigger is mostly due to lack of awareness by the general gaming public. The vast majority of the gamers I tell TG about were not previously aware of the organization.
    I'm not necessarily averse to change but I believe the right promotion and advertising would make TG more relevant, just as it is now. Video Game WR documentation is the draw.
    To this end I believe drawing in speedrunners would help grow TG by a lot too, considering so many modern games lack point tracking.

    To be frank, I believe TG's reputation has been somewhat sullied over the years by past scandals and that also has slowed its growth, but the right promotion and leader could change that perception were they out in front of the cameras and hyping the organization and explaining away any concerns in the process. It doesnt have to be you, the owner, but there should be someone in that kind of role.

    Just my 2cents

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  14. BotzaBrand's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Excelliron

    In my mind the reason TG isnt bigger is mostly due to lack of awareness by the general gaming public. The vast majority of the gamers I tell TG about were not previously aware of the organization.
    I'm not necessarily averse to change but I believe the right promotion and advertising would make TG more relevant, just as it is now. Video Game WR documentation is the draw.
    To this end I believe drawing in speedrunners would help grow TG by a lot too, considering so many modern games lack point tracking.


    I agree about speedrunning. Since the TG Stream section is still directly up front on the main page, and rarely active, I suggest dedicating it to speedrunning. Maybe not entirely, but they are certainly easier to digest than multi hour point marathons, very popular, and showcasing runs on twitch could bring back the TG Stream element and save money instead of reengineering the site for speedruns else where. If the Stream factor isn't in the cards due to the funds maybe replace it from the main page.

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  15. Snowflake's Avatar

    i'm getting real off topic here now, but i'd like to give my opinion on how marathons are good. honeslty pretty much as live events. of course they're boring to watch all the way through. marathons though make a great ice breaker, gimmick, excuse for a party, whatever. you get the marathon going, and the spectators have the marathon to get a conversation going that leads everywhere. in my opinoin the most succesful marathons are marathons that result in everyone ignoring the marathoner and having a great time wit each other, with the marathon there as a consistent background think to check in on and fill dead air.


    i dont know if thats a popular opinoin among marathoners but for me the marathons that resulted in people talking among themsleves and having a great time made me feel like i contributed most.

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  16. timmell's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Excelliron

    To be frank, I believe TG's reputation has been somewhat sullied over the years by past scandals and that also has slowed its growth, but the right promotion and leader could change that perception were they out in front of the cameras and hyping the organization and explaining away any concerns in the process. It doesnt have to be you, the owner, but there should be someone in that kind of role.

    Just my 2cents


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  17. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Excelliron

    "TG will not attempt to increase its promotions further until it has made more progress on the TG general relevancy position in the market. TG's niche must be expanded to include more. We are working on some ideas on how to achieve greater relevancy..."

    In my mind the reason TG isnt bigger is mostly due to lack of awareness by the general gaming public. The vast majority of the gamers I tell TG about were not previously aware of the organization.
    I'm not necessarily averse to change but I believe the right promotion and advertising would make TG more relevant, just as it is now. Video Game WR documentation is the draw.
    To this end I believe drawing in speedrunners would help grow TG by a lot too, considering so many modern games lack point tracking.

    To be frank, I believe TG's reputation has been somewhat sullied over the years by past scandals and that also has slowed its growth, but the right promotion and leader could change that perception were they out in front of the cameras and hyping the organization and explaining away any concerns in the process. It doesnt have to be you, the owner, but there should be someone in that kind of role.

    Just my 2cents

    I very much understand what you are saying and agree that TG would benefit from greater promotion.

    A few thoughts:

    1.) Totally agree that past scandals related to previous ownership have harmed TG and slowed its progress. It will continue to be a process to repair that damage.

    2.) Due to point #1, we have had to work extra hard against that friction to credibly reach audiences and further promote TG member's achievements.

    Fortunately, we have been able to make a lot of progress and as you can see from this post we have greatly surpassed any previous TG ownership promotional accomplishments in terms of audience reach and impression. That being said, without a doubt we would be much further along and even bigger if we had not had to contend with the problems created by past ownership.

    3.) Pursuing World Records is great, but no matter how much you promote that, it will always have limited appeal because most people do not aspire to be the absolute number 1 player on Earth in a video game activity.

    So while there is a PREMIUM aspect to World Record accomplishments and it will always be highly regarded, promoted and respected, that aspect of TG will always have more spectator appeal as its primary interest and limited appeal from a competitive participation standpoint. It's ok.

    World Records are not the only form of video game achievement, and I believe that TG can really embrace and additionally promote a wider appreciation for other achievement types in video game playing. This is where a lot of untapped competitive growth and value can be unlocked. The bounty system in particular will be very helpful in exploring this. I will be discussing more about this at a later date.

    4.) Speedrunning is great and should always be appreciated. TG is happy to recognize speedrunning achievements of course - however, that community is already reasonably well served on its own and TG is not interested in trying to "invade" or unnaturally co-opt any part of that community to try to increase TG's own popularity or relevancy. It is my opinion that it would be inappropriate for TG to actively try do so.

    Competitors from the speedrunning community who want to come to TG and be additionally recognized are always invited and welcome to do so - but that needs to be their own natural choice and motivation, TG does not want to attempt to target and aggressively try induce that participation. TG needs to always show the speedrunning community the great respect it has earned on its own and fully deserves, not try to leverage it for its own purposes. The Speedrunning community just gets all love from TG over here. TG is absolutely not trying to invade their turf in uninvited manner.

    BOTTOM LINE -

    There are a number of positive things that TG can uniquely offer to the video game achieving community and world record recognition is just one of them. Historically, that has been the main focus mostly because that's all it could reasonably handle, and there was nothing wrong with that - however we have reached a point where TG can not only recognize world records, but it can do MORE. So I would like TG to begin the process of working toward that MORE while simultaneously improving what it already does for World Record achievement.

    The MORE that TG can recognize and promote, the MORE relevant TG is - which allows MORE people want to come and participate, and that then supports MORE promotion and awareness.

    It's all connected, and please know that I have been thinking about all of this deeply for quite some time. TG will be taking greater steps toward it and like the growth you see in TG's Facebook presence, you will see growth in other areas this year as well.


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  18. BotzaBrand's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall

    World Records are not the only form of video game achievement, and I believe that TG can really embrace and additionally promote a wider appreciation for other achievement types in video game playing. This is where a lot of untapped competitive growth and value can be unlocked. The bounty system in particular will be very helpful in exploring this. I will be discussing more about this at a later date.

    While not directly related to actual gaming, spotlighting collectors and their collections might be enticing, esp if they can showcase multiple pics or videos. Dedicated collectors for specific series or characters such as this single shot from a large M. Bison collection.


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