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Jace Hall
09-04-2019 at 01:43 PM
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State of the Galaxies - 09-04-19

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Casual and informal conversation for and with the community! Let's try.

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  1. Barthax's Avatar

    Just tried to catch up but the audio gets restarted on top of the ongoing live audio, over & over again. :(

  2. Blackflag82's Avatar

    Gah, forgot this was last night. will try to catch up now and hopefully make it to the next one. Thanks again Jace for taking the time!

  3. Tompa's Avatar

    For the section about getting more speedrunners to the site...

    I recommend that you bring out the ideas at https://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/
    Yes, there will be people who downvote it and make fun of TG in the comments. But if you ever want to "bury the hatchet", I think you need to reach out to them directly, to see if there is any interest over there at all, or if it will just be a waste of your time/money.

  4. Jace Hall's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Tompa
    For the section about getting more speedrunners to the site...
    I recommend that you bring out the ideas at https://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/
    Yes, there will be people who downvote it and make fun of TG in the comments. But if you ever want to "bury the hatchet", I think you need to reach out to them directly, to see if there is any interest over there at all, or if it will just be a waste of your time/money.
    Appreciate the notion but the fact is that there is no “hatchet” at all on the TG side and its perfectly ok for someone to not want to participate at TG for whatever reason they feel.


    All good. Nothing wasted.
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  5. GibGirl's Avatar

    I think of the phrase "it may not be your fault, but it is your problem". The fact that TG has a bad reputation as being untrustworthy among the speedrunning community and at least some significant percentage of score hunters is going to impact the potential reach of Twin Galaxies. There are discussions on Speedrun.com about them setting up their own high score tracking because they just don't consider TG a viable option at this time, even if there's nothing but discussion happening. It doesn't matter *how* it got to this place, but it does matter that this is where we are.

    I think it's worth the discussion with the right people to see how this might be addressed. What is it about TG that they still find untrustworthy, and is that something that can be addressed? Is it just lack of knowledge of how things work now? Is it that there's still garbage in the TG leaderboards that needs to be removed? Is it something in the process that might be addressable? Or maybe it's something ephemeral that will just take time.

    I'd love to see Speedrun.com and TG work together. But I do think right now, it's TG that needs to take the first step to build that connection.

  6. Tompa's Avatar

    One thing, which I have already addressed a couple of times before, is your constant use of "World Record" whetever it actually is an actual World Record or not. In the "About" page you still practically brag about "We are the best!" with a lot of players bragging about having 5000 World Records, when in reality, practically not a single one of them is a record. This is disrespectful to the people who have worked hard on achieving those scores and times.

    Sure, you can submit here and compete with members of the site, but you are ignoring the actual competition of the world. It's like you and a friend are running 100m in your garden in 30 seconds and you claim that you are both faster than Usain Bolt.

    Then of course, it's the matter of not being able to confirm or trust a single pre-TGSAP record. Especially with so many known impossible times that are not possible to dispute because there is no "proof" that will be satisfying enough. Even though the whole speedrun community for said game have been laughing for over a decade over its obvious ridiculousness.

    But yeah, unless some official from here try to reach out to speedrunners, explaining the situation or whatever, nothing will change, nothing will improve of your reputation.

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  7. GibGirl's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Tompa

    One thing, which I have already addressed a couple of times before, is your constant use of "World Record" whetever it actually is an actual World Record or not. In the "About" page you still practically brag about "We are the best!" with a lot of players bragging about having 5000 World Records, when in reality, practically not a single one of them is a record. This is disrespectful to the people who have worked hard on achieving those scores and times.

    Sure, you can submit here and compete with members of the site, but you are ignoring the actual competition of the world. It's like you and a friend are running 100m in your garden in 30 seconds and you claim that you are both faster than Usain Bolt.

    Yeah, lots of TG records aren't really world records... but who else can offer up verified records? Random Joe uploading a clip to YouTube and calling it a "world record" is like someone uploading a video of running a 9.49 in the 100 meters in their backyard and claiming they're a world record runner.

    Part of having a world record in something is having verification that you've done it in proper circumstances. You can't have a world record in a sport unless you've done it in an event sanctioned or approved by some sort of ruling body. And the challenge is that a lot of the Twin Galaxies records end up being the highest "sanctioned"/"certified" performance, because those who are best haven't submitted there scores here for whatever reason.

    No idea how to deal with this situation though.

  8. JJT_Defender's Avatar
    <p>Jace Hall </p><p>I agree with Gibgirl having Twin Galaxy work with <a href="//Speedrun.com">Speedrun.com</a> it would benefit both financially in sponsors, Media coverage,advertisements, promoters &amp; world class Video game speed run players plus the well known Online players.</p><p>It would give both a upgrade. <a href="//Speedrun.com">Speedrun.com</a> Players know about Video Game Speed running and know how to Record precise speed run games ,which Twin Galaxy is weak at, while Twin Galaxy is best at adjudicating and Verifying with a video record as well as MAME INP Analyst for console Mame and Arcade Game of video game performances.</p><p>Their would be More people coming and Looking at both sites and world media would take interest.</p><p>Twin Galaxy Needs to Adopt and Maybe merge or at least work together and if their are any differences work it out with our Twin Galaxy Member community and the Speedrun Member community along with the Staff from both.</p><p>Gibgirl said I&#39;d love to see Speedrun.com and TG work together. But I do think right now, it&#39;s TG that needs to take the first step to build that connection.</p><p>[QUOTE=Jace Hall;bt47055]Appreciate the notion but the fact is that there is no &ldquo;hatchet&rdquo; at all on the TG side and its perfectly ok for someone to not want to participate at TG for whatever reason they feel. All good. Nothing wasted.[/QUOTE]</p>
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  9. datagod's Avatar

    The speed running community is doing great. Why does the modern Twin Galaxies have to apologize to them for anything? The two communities are not hurting each other. People can be in both if they want, or neither.

    Nothing is stopping the speed running community from submitting their scores here for further recognition.

    Twin Galaxies of the past had different rules about what constitutes evidence. TGSAP is the way to go today with full video evidence. If the speed running community wants an apology the should find out who is behind the impossible Zelda speed run, and ask for an apology from them. I think I saw a dispute about that already.



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  10. Riatoju's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl

    I'd love to see Speedrun.com and TG work together. But I do think right now, it's TG that needs to take the first step to build that connection.

    I can't see that ever making sense, that's like asking McDonalds to work with Burger King. Speedrun is not only the competition but the alternative to those who don't want to be here. Also their community is pretty tight knit. They're also the top dog right now, with TG not so far behind but TG needing more help in that department as Speedrun is in a position for bigger better things. TG needs to do stuff to make it more attractive to competitive gamers everywhere, not just entice the speedrun community. Those people are loyal and will only leave if TG offers something speedrun doesn't, like $$, or live events, anything that would make worth having a record here better than there.

    I can definitely say the means for deciding scores here is better than theirs, they rely on moderators which is no different than referees. All their scores are submitted off site, which means eventually some of those scores may vanish.

    I honestly think TG needs to just get rid of all the legacy scores and require actual proof if a score is to remain. Those legacy scores hurt TG's image more than anything and the only people it's pleasing by keeping them there are people who don't even visit the site anymore.

    If those scores are that important, than maybe separate them from the real scores, by putting them in their own category and only letting them become legit if evidence can back them up. Also allow them to be disputed as well even in their own separate category.

    I mean to be frank, Walter entered all of those scores from magazines, taking people's words ect, Tim Mcvey said he witnessed it himself. Despite what people may think of Tim he ain't wrong. Those dumb scores hurt TG more than anything. They should have been dropped en-mass along time ago. Hell, maybe those scores can be handed off to another entity. I know folks in Ottumwa would love to take up a legacy score board, let them deal with that mess.

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    Updated 09-05-2019 at 05:24 PM by Riatoju
  11. Snowflake's Avatar

    its amazing how we all partially agree and disagree on many points, seems the only unifying theme is knowing what bunk pre-tgsap is. seperate it, delete it, take time to upload the video evidence and prove it, whatever.

    I remember during the dragster debate Jace himself saying stakes are high. I dont remember the exact quote, but if need be i can find it. The basic claim (back when jace seemed convinced the dragster score was real), was that if that todd does the 5.51 at a charity event (which i correctly predicted would never happen) then that would make a strong case that people who say scores are impossible are just sore losers who dont know what they're talking about and that their claims of "proof" are laughable. On the other hand, if the time was in fact proven false it would lend legitamacy to the claim all the old hard to believe records are untrustworthy.

    now for those high stakes, i have no doubt if jace won and todd did the 5.51 live he'd expect us to pay up and start respecting all the scores we previously thought were impossible. however, since the event never happened and the score was stripped, well, i think its only fair to ask the other side of the stakes now pay up. pre-tgsap has been proven to have MULTIPLE corrupt refs with literally hundreds of fake (now removed) scores. thats not just one bad apple. thats a systemic issue. i really think its time to remember the claim of those high stakes, expect the high stakes paid, and relegate pre-tgsap to historic foot notes in their own archived area not real scores on a scoreboard

    i'm back to liking TG again. i only left for less than two weeks, i cant stay away. but when even the fans know what foolishness went on it really is time to accept pre-tgsap records, while many may be real, is no different than a drunk at a bar bragging. sure, what he's saying might be true. but thers no proof, and no the word of lying corrupt tg refs is not proof not even close, especially when tg "lost" the metadata showing what ref entered what score. how can we you expect us to believe those scores when you no longer even retain proof of which scores the proven liars verified?


  12. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by HectorTelloc



    I mean to be frank, Walter entered all of those scores from magazines, taking people's words ect, Tim Mcvey said he witnessed it himself. Despite what people may think of Tim he ain't wrong. Those dumb scores hurt TG more than anything. They should have been dropped en-mass along time ago. Hell, maybe those scores can be handed off to another entity. I know folks in Ottumwa would love to take up a legacy score board, let them deal with that mess.

    This is known to be true. Thats why steve sanders 3milloin score got in everyone was believed. Heres the thing though, i distinguish between gullibity and corruption. Walter trusted everyone, so it was a flawed system but at least it was flawed evenly and fairly for everyone

    compare that with the 2000s when there were different rules for different people. Its one thing to blanketly trust anyone like walter did. Its quite another to have one set of demands of proof for non-refs, while refs can either bypass standard verification procedures, or even worse, have no evidence. and yes we know scores listed as having video in fact had no evidence since the score is impossible and could never be done

    Garret actaully found one such magazine that scores came from. Heres a funny pattern though. In the early 2000s, those magazines, any score that beat a ref was removed, meanwhile any score that didnt beat a score stayed. I can accept blindly trustin a magazine, I cant accept though having one set of trust for scores that beat refs and another set of trust for scores that dont.

  13. Snowflake's Avatar

    found it in my packets. the forum's where this was previously said are currently locked, but..

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  14. Snowflake's Avatar

    now when the dispute system first started the rule was we need absolute proof. however I would ask jace to remember his words above. the stakes were high and by your own words above you previoulsy acknowledged if todd's score was deemed invalid then that would allow even pure conjecture of hard to believe scores to suddenly have more weight lent to it.

    well, thats no longer a what if. we're there now. 100s of scores have been removed from the database, scores that were verified by refs, scores that were "legendary" and highly respected. If TG has removed multiple highly respected scores from highly respected individulas -- individuals that even under tgsap had the "legendary member" status under their name. well, if the word of MULTIPLE LEGENDARY members isnt good enough, and multiple (two, but i dont mind calling two 'multiple' considering how special a word like 'legendary' should be) "legendary members' have been banned and records stripped then i think its time to remember the prior high stakes spoken about

    this isnt going to go away. some of the score strips were a start in the right direction. But the outside world just isnt going to respect tg as long as the corruption of the tg of the early 2000s remains. incompetance of importing magazines and trust can be overlook from the 80s. the outright corruption of the 2000s really needs to be handled though

  15. thegamer1185's Avatar

    I've had my scores removed on Speed run for Mickey's Speedway USA because the youtube videos I posted weren't cut to just the lap/race. No kidding. They didn't want me to show the boot up or nothing, just the run. So TGSAP is by far the better choice. Anyway, a moderator at Speedrun verified my times for Mickey's Speedway, then later on removed them all because even though I time stamped them, it was harder for a moderator to judge them....with time stamps. I like Speedrun for what it is, I like TG for what is, I like Highscore for what it is. They all have their own thing to appreciate.

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    Updated 09-05-2019 at 10:12 PM by thegamer1185
  16. Tompa's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl

    And the challenge is that a lot of the Twin Galaxies records end up being the highest "sanctioned"/"certified" performance, because those who are best haven't submitted there scores here for whatever reason.

    For anyone that is serious with, for example, Mario Kart time trial times know that the best, most official and serious place for that is MarioKart64.com. The "whatever reason" here is why people submit their times here instead of where the competition is being held, where your record will actually count for something with the game. Just because a run is on TG doesn't mean it's any more "certified" than elsewhere.

    In July 13, a new Ocarina of Time WR run was set of a time of 16:58. On July 31 Guinness World Records uploaded a video about it:
    Another example is the Super Mario Bros. Warpless WR in 18:59, done on August 14, on August 22 GWR made a video about that time:

    I've explained before that speedrunners who submit their times here won't any "official" status to it or "further recognition", the record won't count for anything except if someone wants to get an easy "WR" and brag about it. Several big runners are already getting sponsors, paid trips to events and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

    I can definitely say the means for deciding scores here is better than theirs, they rely on moderators which is no different than referees. All their scores are submitted off site, which means eventually some of those scores may vanish.

    The moderators on SRC are at least expert of their game. Anyone is also able to watch the run and can chip in in case they found something suspicious. The old referees at TG were "experts" at, often, multiple consoles. It was also usually verified by only one person and no one else ever got to see the video. With TGASP, anyone can review, which is great, but as anyone can vote on it, you don't need to know the game at all to be "an expert" at verifying with. It doesn't help that you are forced to verify runs in order to be able to submit. It's a good idea to have a system which encourages people to help out, but it's to make this perfect...

    Quote Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

    I honestly think TG needs to just get rid of all the legacy scores and require actual proof if a score is to remain. Those legacy scores hurt TG's image more than anything and the only people it's pleasing by keeping them there are people who don't even visit the site anymore.

    Amen to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGamer1185

    I've had my scores removed on Speed run for Mickey's Speedway USA because the youtube videos I posted weren't cut to just the lap/race. No kidding. They didn't want me to show the boot up or nothing, just the run. So TGSAP is by far the better choice. Anyway, a moderator at Speedrun verified my times for Mickey's Speedway, then later on removed them all because even though I time stamped them, it was harder for a moderator to judge them....with time stamps. I like Speedrun for what it is, I like TG for what is, I like Highscore for what it is. They all have their own thing to appreciate.

    Those were some lazy ass verifiers really =/. I don't agree by that by any means. I can understand the frustration if there were multiple attempts in the video and no clear indication on when the actual record took place. But with timestamps: Meh to them.

  17. GibGirl's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by HectorTelloc

    I can't see that ever making sense, that's like asking McDonalds to work with Burger King. Speedrun is not only the competition but the alternative to those who don't want to be here. Also their community is pretty tight knit. They're also the top dog right now, with TG not so far behind but TG needing more help in that department as Speedrun is in a position for bigger better things. TG needs to do stuff to make it more attractive to competitive gamers everywhere, not just entice the speedrun community. Those people are loyal and will only leave if TG offers something speedrun doesn't, like $$, or live events, anything that would make worth having a record here better than there.

    Score chasing and speedrunning are not the same thing, and there's no reason both can't coexist. It's more like McDonalds versus Taco Bell. Sure, they both compete for people wanting food, but they serve different products, and there's room for both without issue.

    Yeah, TG tracks Speedruns, but anyone who's into speedrunning goes to Speedrun.com. And Speedrun.com does have a bit of score tracking forced into some places, but it clearly doesn't fit there. The only real competition between the two sites is for which kind of gaming achievements people are going to spend time working on.

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  18. GibGirl's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Tompa


    For anyone that is serious with, for example, Mario Kart time trial times know that the best, most official and serious place for that is MarioKart64.com. The "whatever reason" here is why people submit their times here instead of where the competition is being held, where your record will actually count for something with the game. Just because a run is on TG doesn't mean it's any more "certified" than elsewhere.

    Yes, for someone specific games, there are other sources that serve as the authoritative source. I'd go elsewhere for the true top Mario Kart scores, or for Rock Band.

    But as an example, Burnout Revenge Traffic Attack scores. I can find some scattered videos on YouTube of higher scores than anything on here, but not a single one of those that I've seen gives me reason to believe they're truly trustworthy. Cyberscore has some higher scores, but most of those don't even have photos, so they're just random numbers someone entered. TG is my authority *because there's nothing else*. I just call them Twin Galaxies records, because my scores aren't enough to feel they count as "world records", but how do we determine when they qualify as "world records" when I have nothing else to compare to?

  19. swaggers's Avatar

    And just because someone is tops on MarioKart64.com doesn't make them necessarily the best in the world either. Could easily be some wonder kid out there getting even better times that doesn't care or even know about submitting scores. I always say having a World Record just means you had the drive and equipment to record what you did.


    If someone doesn't like TG saying that the record on TG is is the best there is absolutely nothing at all keeping them from coming here and submitting their score here also. Free site.

  20. HAN's Avatar

    @Swaggers - I would agree with your point, except that it really isn't "free" - monetarily, yes. But to submit more than your freebie you get when you get verified requires an investment of time, and buying into the whole TGSAP process. Most people get their first submission wrong in some way or other, and they have to "earn" the points to submit their first score correctly anyway.

    I know of more than several players at Galloping Ghost Arcade who just can't be bothered to learn the in's and outs of the TGSAP system, They'd submit scores here if that's all there was to it (upload video/proof), but asking them to do much more is time-prohibitive to them. They'd rather play and set more scores.

    We really shouldn't say World Record, especially when the site has a barrier of entry like this. You also have to be English-speaking or have translation help. The whole Japanese speaking world has higher scores in many of the games that we track. They were/are verifiable and were in print in the Arcadia / Gamest magazines, and now in JHA (Japan High Score Association).

    I've had this conversation with others and to presume that someone should come here (or any singe score tracking entity) for recognition isn't right. In my opinion, it is the responsibility of the score-tracking entity/site to do their own research if they want a score to be recognized as a true World Record.

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