Jace Hall's Feed

Jace Hall
11-13-2019 at 09:05 PM
111 Comments
Rate this Entry

TGSAP ONLY MODE

In light of some of the conversation and concerns that have been going on in regard to historical scores vs TGSAP scores, I have asked our engineering team look into creating a "TGSAP ONLY" mode for Twin Galaxies that will be set as default.

If set, this will remove all non-TGSAP scores from all displays and site calculations.

It will only display TGSAP scores and would rank list everything throughout the site only according to TGSAP scores.

If TGSAP ONLY mode is created, if a member wanted to include non-TGSAP scores into the display/lists/calculations they would then be able to set their account to ALL SCORES mode. (This is the mode the site currently is in).

I will keep you posted on this matter. That is all. Thank you.

Comments
  1. Garrett Holland's Avatar

    I don't have a dog in this fight, but based on all prior comments pro and con, would it be unreasonable to leave legacy scores in when factoring ESI regardless of "view" setting, and simply give the pre-tgsap entries a zero value for ESI ex post facto? That will retain everyone's current ESI who have TGSAP entries, satisfying one grievance, while leaving the legacy scores (read: scores w/o evidence) on the leaderboard, satisfying the other grievance ... and maybe even change the font color of those particular to gray, which would be a de facto demotion, appearance-wise? Hell, even the ranks shown to the left on each leaderboard can have their rank number blank and not factored into ranking. Ill put together a visual example and throw it on here shortly.

    LikesRogerpoco liked this post
    Updated 11-15-2019 at 09:23 AM by Garrett Holland
  2. The Evener's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogerpoco

    No lie, I haven't exactly warmed up to the idea, but I admit, I AM interested to see how things would shake up, TGSAP only, I'm just afraid of losing the historical relevance of this particular scoreboard, which, goofy me or not, is definitely important to me

    It's interesting to hear the different reasons how people came to TG - I guess we're a motley crew. I share your view of TG - it's the historical scoreboard that brought me here in the first place, and the principle thing in my mind that sets TG apart from any other high score site that people can post scores and submit evidence. It's an interesting experiment to be sure - to "filter out" the historical lens, but if that's what the young kids want with the potential to grow the site, then I'd be hard pressed to say no, especially since those of us who wish to compete to surpass WRs posted in the 80s/90s/2000s can still do so.

    Jace, I'd also suggest that the proposed "default" TGSAP ONLY mode is clearly signposted when people conduct searches. I know anecdotally that people will come here from time to time to search the leaderboards for high scores on their favourite 80s arcade or console game, either on a whim, for research on the history of scores, etc. If it's not clear to the user that they can toggle between TGSAP and historical, it's possible some will walk away thinking that there aren't any records on some tracks, etc.

    ThanksRogerpoco thanked this post
    LikesRogerpoco, Snowflake liked this post
    Updated 11-15-2019 at 10:06 AM by The Evener
  3. timmell's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcade


    MarC my words!!!


    Really, you went there.

    LikesMarcade, Snowflake liked this post
  4. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Outside of speedrun, I will reference only a few other score sites. Highscore is a good site, but the "belief" of scores isn't even comparible to the standards of TG and Speedrun for confirmation of the score. On highscore.com you can just submit a photo if you want.

    I like the point above. If it must be done, I think the standard filter should have ALL TG scores shown. Filter to what you want, but have the default always be the entire database. As for ESI, just leave it at calculating the entire leaderboard and don't change anything. Not worth the hassle.

    LikesEmayl liked this post
  5. Marcade's Avatar

    I say we start over now in its entirety. A new BIG BANG - ASAP!

    WIPE the scoreboard clean... No one has any verified scores/no pending scores, and ZERO WR's and ESI across the board.











    ... (Yes, i am kidding) :P

    LikesSnowflake liked this post
  6. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackflag82


    Nope, I wouldn't bet against roger overtaking Tom's ESI in the long run. But that gets to my point- adjusting ESI doesn't make sense (not saying that you're saying that), because the ESI is never an impossible goal to overtake even if some of the scores within one's ESI are impossible.

    On a side note, this also gets back to my view that ESI can be made to be more robust and useful if it allows for side by side comparisons...being able to filter ESI for all NES Shoot'em ups, or puzzle games, or racing games, etc... would allow people to determine where they stand in the games they life to play within a system.

    If a random assortment of 25 games were chosen that Tom V had scores on for the NES and the tournament was to get higher ESI on just that subset of games, I would be willing to take Tom on that bet (because of games like Bayou Billy)


    oh its on like popeye. TG needs to add its next section where it takes online bets. Brings the old refs agains the actual players. Bring in rule sets that arent made by refs tailoring to refs, rulesets he general populace agree on. I'm voting on the players every time. except maybe rage. he's some weird hybrid of ref while also honoralbe knowledgable and skillful.

  7. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Garrett Holland

    I don't have a dog in this fight, but based on all prior comments pro and con, would it be unreasonable to leave legacy scores in when factoring ESI regardless of "view" setting, and simply give the pre-tgsap entries a zero value for ESI ex post facto? That will retain everyone's current ESI who have TGSAP entries, satisfying one grievance, while leaving the legacy scores (read: scores w/o evidence) on the leaderboard, satisfying the other grievance ... and maybe even change the font color of those particular to gray, which would be a de facto demotion, appearance-wise? Hell, even the ranks shown to the left on each leaderboard can have their rank number blank and not factored into ranking. Ill put together a visual example and throw it on here shortly.


    the split has been long asked for, i'm gonna make the fatal mistake of mind reading. but reading tg's mind i think tg has come to realize now that ref after ref and ref has been found to cheated and have scores removed, and now yet a 4th ref is under fire, maybe tg is realizing all these disputes against referees damages its reputation. maybe getting at the root cause of the disputes would allow people to move on. when we have to compete with fake scores of course we get emotional and the dipsutes never end. as long as the old fake scores continue to pervert ESI the drama will continue. giving people an option to see scores without the damage caused by the corrupt refs allows people to not care about those scores and not need to dispute.

    serioulsy, just how many refs have to be banned and found gulty of cheating before its time to just ignore the old scoreboard and focus on the split -- split in ALL ways. world record count, esi, everything. as for the real scores, people are free to resubmit.

    i also support the encouragement of a way for resubmitters to still get credit for original date. if an old score, has video found, and its proven by people with expertise and honor (tgsap) then theres no reason to change the date, the original date should be honored.

    i'd also encourage us to be reaosnable. redelf to his credit started resubmitted scores long ago. so two points on that
    1. if a way to implement a date protected way to resubmit is made, it would be nice if people like redelf could retroactively get the original date of the scores reinstated as well
    2. i watched john's asteroids. frankly, it did not meet todays standards on some technicalities. however, i still believed it to be valid and voted accept. I hope people will still demand proof but at the same time not be as hung up on technicalities when reapproving pre-tgsap as we are on truly new stuff. for pre-tgsap stuff if a technicality is violated but the score is good i hope people will be reasonable.

    LikesGarrett Holland liked this post
  8. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener


    It's interesting to hear the different reasons how people came to TG - I guess we're a motley crew. I share your view of TG - it's the historical scoreboard that brought me here in the first place, and the principle thing in my mind that sets TG apart from any other high score site that people can post scores and submit evidence. It's an interesting experiment to be sure - to "filter out" the historical lens, but if that's what the young kids want with the potential to grow the site, then I'd be hard pressed to say no, especially since those of us who wish to compete to surpass WRs posted in the 80s/90s/2000s can still do so.

    Jace, I'd also suggest that the proposed "default" TGSAP ONLY mode is clearly signposted when people conduct searches. I know anecdotally that people will come here from time to time to search the leaderboards for high scores on their favourite 80s arcade or console game, either on a whim, for research on the history of scores, etc. If it's not clear to the user that they can toggle between TGSAP and historical, it's possible some will walk away thinking that there aren't any records on some tracks, etc.

    on this point i agree. as anti-old tg as i am, you cant delete history. heck, to some degree i even think the proven fake scores should be preserve. those scores sometimes discouraged competion but also sometimes encouraged it. knowing what fake scores were there helps explain why people competed harder, or outright gave up.

    we current have a "view all" button instead of just the top 5. maybe add a "view historic" as well as "view historic + removed" scores button?

  9. Ragequit's Avatar

    I don't think it's fair to assume that all records from the old era of TG are fake but yeah, i get why some people would want records to be separated by adjudication method.

    LikesEmayl, Snowflake liked this post
  10. Jace Hall's Avatar

    After discussing this with our engineering team @admin staff and digesting all the thoughts and comments in this thread, it is my opinion that it may be best to not create a TGSAP ONLY "mode"

    Instead, it may be a better solution to archive the pre-TGSAP scores into their own inactive historic database and make that database viewable by a clear and descriptive menu link on the site, with the historic scores still reference-able on user profile pages, and still allow disputes on those scores, but to not have those scores factor into any of site statistics like ESI and etc.

    What will be left is an active score database that is purely TGSAP. All site calculations like ESI will be based on that only.

    Unless specifically seeking the historic score database, TG visitors would primarily be exposed to the active TGSAP database only.

    This separation would effectively make those historic scores part of a digital museum, preserving history and allowing people to value the scores within the context of their historic adjudication method and era.

    If certificates are ever made available again, the historic score submitters will be able to get them, and they will be awesome but different than what would be available for the highly scrutinized TGSAP scores.

    It's my opinion that this may make things far less complicated for the user base than having "modes" to switch back and forth between.

    Just one competitive scoreboard, TGSAP - and the rest is preserved history.

    Let me know your thoughts.

    Thanksdatagod, Garrett Holland thanked this post
    LikesEVN, datagod, Snowflake, Tompa, Garrett Holland liked this post
  11. EVN's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall

    After discussing this with our engineering team @admin staff and digesting all the thoughts and comments in this thread, it is my opinion that it may be best to not create a TGSAP ONLY "mode"

    Instead, it may be a better solution to archive the pre-TGSAP scores into their own inactive historic database and make that database viewable by a clear and descriptive menu link on the site, with the historic scores still reference-able on user profile pages, and still allow disputes on those scores, but to not have those scores factor into any of site statistics like ESI and etc.

    What will be left is an active score database that is purely TGSAP. All site calculations like ESI will be based on that only.

    Unless specifically seeking the historic score database, TG visitors would primarily be exposed to the active TGSAP database only.

    This separation would effectively make those historic scores part of a digital museum, preserving history and allowing people to value the scores within the context of their historic adjudication method and era.

    If certificates are ever made available again, the historic score submitters will be able to get them, and they will be awesome but different than what would be available for the highly scrutinized TGSAP scores.

    It's my opinion that this may make things far less complicated for the user base than having "modes" to switch back and forth between.

    Just one competitive scoreboard, TGSAP - and the rest is preserved history.

    Let me know your thoughts.


    This would be perfect.

    Likesdatagod, Garrett Holland liked this post
  12. Marcade's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall

    After discussing this with our engineering team @admin staff and digesting all the thoughts and comments in this thread, it is my opinion that it may be best to not create a TGSAP ONLY "mode"

    Instead, it may be a better solution to archive the pre-TGSAP scores into their own inactive historic database and make that database viewable by a clear and descriptive menu link on the site, with the historic scores still reference-able on user profile pages, and still allow disputes on those scores, but to not have those scores factor into any of site statistics like ESI and etc.

    What will be left is an active score database that is purely TGSAP. All site calculations like ESI will be based on that only.

    Unless specifically seeking the historic score database, TG visitors would primarily be exposed to the active TGSAP database only.

    This separation would effectively make those historic scores part of a digital museum, preserving history and allowing people to value the scores within the context of their historic adjudication method and era.

    If certificates are ever made available again, the historic score submitters will be able to get them, and they will be awesome but different than what would be available for the highly scrutinized TGSAP scores.

    It's my opinion that this may make things far less complicated for the user base than having "modes" to switch back and forth between.

    Just one competitive scoreboard, TGSAP - and the rest is preserved history.

    Let me know your thoughts.

    Then that means you are holding pre-TGSAP prejudice, against the current status quo of TGSAP.

    Why does this need to be complicated?

    If you cant filter the simple way you originally proposed via gamers personal preference, then leave everything alone as it CURRENTLY IS.

    Otherwise, you will only make things complicated and piss off a lot of us referee-era/hybrid gamers. (Those that already state their case)

    You want the best scores/times on the TG database? Then it ALL gets integrated together. Simple as that!


    ThanksThe Evener thanked this post
    Updated 11-15-2019 at 10:56 PM by Marcade
  13. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Just leave it as is. There are going to be hundreds of games with literally no scores at all on them in the TGSAP era if you separate them. It's not hurting anything having the scores mixed. The dates verified, how they are verified is a clear indicator on the leaderboards what is and isn't TGSAP. This need to all of a sudden separate the leaderboards is kind of crazy. The fact old scores and TGSAP scores are mixed ISN'T the problem at all. It's the scores that are fake that are the issue. TG is just doing what society is now doing in everything, adding another layer of division when there doesn't need to be one. TG is already saving face by allowing people to find these fake scores and having them removed. So 4 refs and there shady ways are going to **** it all up for us new/still active members on the site? Sorry, but **** that and **** them.

    If you really want some sort of separation, why not leave everything as is and have all the resources you were going to use to implement this new filter/system and have them go one by one down each platform and game and make a list of scores that are astronomically larger than the others. Let the members sort out the rest. Or use your resources else where. Post Now refreshing automatically would be a neat change...


    ThanksMarcade, The Evener thanked this post
    Updated 11-15-2019 at 11:22 PM by thegamer1185
  14. Blackflag82's Avatar

    Being able to filter - I'm in favor

    The proposed "preservation" and separation - I'm not in favor (for many of the reasons Marc and Kyle.arleady stated).

    Changing ESI to be based only on TGSAP scores I also think is mistake. I know some folks have issues with ESI, but to me the failings of ESI are that it is one dimensional. With and ESI "filter" it could easily.be turned into a tool that provides context between new and old.scores and creates a plethora of stats (side by side player comparisons on a common game set or a narrowing based on gametype as examples) further funneling ESI with only dilute what the state could be measuring rather than enhancing it.


    ThanksThe Evener, MyOwnWorstEnemy thanked this post
    LikesThe Evener, nads, Marcade, Barthax liked this post
  15. Snowflake's Avatar

    i'm just happy to see a split, regardless of how that split happens, however
    1. if more people prefer a filter than true split, i say give them that. no need to take the more controversai option when a less controvesail one exists
    2. can you explain what technical aspects are preventing a database from having a "view"? thats pretty standard for databases isnt it? i would think the fitler (just a view really based on a query for tgsap stuff) should be fairly easy and can be done at run time. the actual split you mention invovles moving data, should take longer, and since data is truly being moved runs the risk of corrupting the data. if you're engineer is not capable of doing the mode/view option then i would have severe concerns about trusting him migrating data especially considering how many other bugs every minor change brings. please dont implement such a chance until you can be reasonably sure it wont corrupt the databases scores in the process. noone wants to remember the jace hall era as the era that wiped the database due to a programming error.

    LikesRagequit liked this post
  16. The Evener's Avatar

    So much to say, so little room to say it.

    Jace, usually when I hear a proposal to "do things differently," my first thought is "what's the problem that the solution is trying to address?" And I'm at a loss to identify a problem large enough to justify your proposal to create a TGSAP-only scoreboard. I've been following this site since it started in 2014, and every now and then I've heard fellow members complain about the existence of "fake scores" in the overall TG database - a problem that has existed through every ownership group that has operated TG in its existence. Your proposal was to create a much-valued Dispute Review System so members could finally make the case to the community about scores (many of them long suspected) that merited removal, with a mechanism that involved a permanent record of discussion, evidence, and a final TG determination. In my opinion, this tool has been highly successful in empowering members as well as demonstrating TG's determination to the wider gaming community of its goal to achieve integrity and accuracy in competitive gaming.

    The discussion about past achievements has largely revolved around the fact that we don't have TGSAP-style evidence to back them up. But that's different than having no evidence at all. There always has been evidence with the vast majority of TG inducted scores, beginning with that 13 year old kid in 1982 waving wildly for the owner to come over and visually confirm the new high score. Yes, we've seen 3,000,000 point DK games and 8,000,000 Pac-Man scores get into magazines in this era, so TG's evidence standard has evolved. In the early 2000s, all submissions that weren't witnessed live had to have video tape. TG notified through its policy statement that every submitted performance became the property of TG. We know that it was Day's intent to create a video archive of performances, but the lack of focus, resources, and dedication meant that such an archive wasn't systematically established, resulting in TG refs being left with dozens of tapes. When it came to video submissions, TG was not a "view the tape once and destroy" shop. However, for the aforementioned reasons the evidence did not survive for the vast majority of submissions, which makes disputing video tape or DVD submissions a lot more harder - it would be a different world if TG had systematically preserved the submissions in an organized fashion. Besides, this issue is not unique to TG - there isn't a single organized sport that has every competitive performance recorded for subsequent review by future generations. Every organized sport has undergone huge changes as well, whether equipment, playfield dimensions, the rulebook, etc. But achievements and stats accrued over time are still cited in conjunction with any contemporary achievement or record, with caveats cited where necessary.

    So while some members pointed out the futility of trying to remove every fake score from the DB, the community pressed ahead due to TG's commitment to honour the legacy of its founder and celebrate competitive gaming in the same way that people celebrate any sport - one that this conscious of, and embraces past achievements as worthy of honour and celebration beside current achievements. Indeed, it's this perspective that - in my mind - is key to making a TG record more meaningful than any other one - TG achievements are placed squarely in the history of competitive gaming, and in that way every TG record is always "historic."

    I'll close by pointing out that the TG community and its admin have expended an enormous amount of energy in a series of dispute reviews, some of them high profile. As far as I can recall, all of these disputes involved pre-TGSAP scores. What does it say after all of that effort if TG is now just going to "archive" the pre-TGSAP scores? Some people swept up in those high profile disputes proposed the very measure you're now contemplating - just archive the old scores and respect them in their context, citing different evidence standards, "things were done differently back then," as a means ultimately to avoid accountability for their past actions. Bad timing for them that this proposal didn't come up much sooner, I suppose.

    ThanksRagequit thanked this post
    LikesMyOwnWorstEnemy, Marcade, Barthax liked this post
    Updated 11-16-2019 at 07:43 AM by The Evener
  17. MyOwnWorstEnemy's Avatar

    Offering an opinion from an ol' timer that's weathered several TG regime changes. I promise to keep this short and much of what I'm about to say is an 'echo' of what other members already posted. I'll just break this down to a 'problem' and 'solution' format.


    Problem Statement: Older scores archived in the database have questionable validity due to the lax verification system, referee collusion / corruption, control circumvention, and overall lack of transparency.


    Solution: Design and implement a dispute framework that can identify, investigate, and render a decision.


    Yes, a dispute system was implemented and has some general parameters but is it effective at identifying, investigating, and rendering a decision for records in the non TGSAP area? I'd spend my resources in trying to find ways to make the dispute system better with reasonable expectations on how to dispute records without any evidence.


    As far as adding filter to view TGSAP only scores, I'm all for options so filtering is good. However, having two separate 'scoreboards' for Pre TGSAP and TGSAP era scores doesn't make that much sense. Its all Twin Galaxies regardless of era. Separation of the eras hides the problem and is just a "sweep it under the rug" approach to problem solving. Also if the center of the Twin Galaxies universe is the scoreboard, does it make much sense for a user, that is trying to find out what a high score is on a retro game, and the answer is "it depends - modern era or historical era?".


    I suggest spending the IT resources on fixing current site bugs and possible re-formatting the database structure so filtering and other skill measurement metrics are possible. Take a look a Cyberscore and see how much utility can be had with a better database structure.




    ThanksMarcade thanked this post
  18. The Evener's Avatar

    MyOwnWorstEnemy hit it on the head - to address issues with questionable scores, I would look at reforming the Dispute Review System rather than setting aside 3/4 of the database into a static archive. Both in terms of workflow/process (eg. timely reviews, follow through on decisions) and the overall operation of the system, including a re-examination of thresholds of evidence required to validate a removal decision, etc. If errors are made in the reformed dispute review process based on transparent and good-faith effort, as you pointed out with the Mitchell Evidence Package, users can approach TG to share new evidence that may lead to a decision reversal without resorting to lawsuit threats.

    EDIT: I re-read your earlier post Jace and see that members can still dispute "archived scores." That's nice in principle, but considering that these scores won't "factor into any of site statistics like ESI and etc," it does send a mixed message about the value or purpose of disputing them, let alone TG expending any resources as we saw with Dragster and DK. Presumably the reason why pre-TGSAP scores are being archived is because they're not valued in the same way - in other words, it conveys the message "don't worry about these scores - there's lots of problems with them, we just retained them for the historically curious." It's hard to make the case that the wider gaming community should care about the DB enough to dispute pre-TGSAP scores when they're set aside as a static archive. How much differently would have the last high profile dispute reviews unfolded if they were scores already placed in this proposed archive?

    ThanksMyOwnWorstEnemy thanked this post
    LikesSnowflake, MyOwnWorstEnemy, Barthax liked this post
    Updated 11-16-2019 at 08:06 AM by The Evener
  19. Marcade's Avatar

    Whats the next proposal?

    Segregate the overall scoreboard via USA, and another for international?

    Segregate the overall scoreboard for registered members, and another for unregistered members?

    Should I go on and suggest segregating ones gender, sex or sexual preference? (Put me down for the sex scoreboard, as I do get some from muh wife from time to time) ;)



    Likestimmell, Barthax liked this post
    Updated 11-16-2019 at 08:42 AM by Marcade
  20. timmell's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall

    Just one competitive scoreboard, TGSAP - and the rest is preserved history.

    Let me know your thoughts.


    That would be terrible IMO. Then 95% of the scores that are good and legit will be forgotten at some point. They won’t be gone forever, just they won’t be reconziged. Which is a shame for all the gamers who did have great achievement On the boards before TGSAP.

    But if you did just have the one scoreboard TGSAP. I would recommend rebranding everything . Call it something else. Because the name Twin Galaxies is hurt by the past ownerships actions , and the invalid scores in the database. Past ownership is gone and if you separate all the old scores from TGSAP then what is the value in keeping the name? TGSAP is only hurt by caring the Twin Galaxies name.


    Twin Galaxies was/is still building back credibility based on the TGSAP and dispute system. But the dispute system needs cares and maintenance. And something/ someone with logical authority.





Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Join us