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Jace Hall
11-13-2019 at 09:05 PM
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TGSAP ONLY MODE

In light of some of the conversation and concerns that have been going on in regard to historical scores vs TGSAP scores, I have asked our engineering team look into creating a "TGSAP ONLY" mode for Twin Galaxies that will be set as default.

If set, this will remove all non-TGSAP scores from all displays and site calculations.

It will only display TGSAP scores and would rank list everything throughout the site only according to TGSAP scores.

If TGSAP ONLY mode is created, if a member wanted to include non-TGSAP scores into the display/lists/calculations they would then be able to set their account to ALL SCORES mode. (This is the mode the site currently is in).

I will keep you posted on this matter. That is all. Thank you.

Comments
  1. EVN's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall

    Again, I do understand the point you are making.


    I think polls are going to serve you better in getting yourself informed rather than this format.

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  2. thegamer1185's Avatar

    The thing is, speedrun.com is more like old TG than people know. They have a few moderators, hell even single moderators, responsible for the games. I've had my Slalom run sitting there for months and nothing. To add to that, I had my Mickey Speedway Scores completely wiped out from their system. I asked about it, they say there is no record of them ever being there. They also said that they did a roll back on their system which may have lost the scores. Fair enough, but I found it weird that the guy who posted his scores a few weeks after I did happened to have his scores remain in the system. How is that possible? Did I mention it was the moderator who posted shortly after I did. Some of my times would still be the number ones. Just didn't seem right to me. I also had my first Wave Race scores removed from the data base and was asked to resubmit them in shorter videos...which meant I had to cut out my boot ups. So yeah, TGSAP is IMO the absolute best system for verifying scores. TG needs to focus on that. Anytime someone says anything about TG in a negative way, simply say, "That's why we have the TGSAP system. We have learned from our sites past, and there is no other system like it else where." Boom, done.

    I think TG is absolutely going the right direction with TGSAP. I agree with EVERYONE who says just remove the leaderboards and everything is all good, other people will then respect TG. That's just not how it works though. It's not fair, it's cowardly, and just isn't right. Mainly because it did happen, and people hold grudges/don't just forget things like that.

    The dispute system is the NEXT right direction TG has implemented. I don't like how there needs to be a set number of votes on it for TG to even notice it. I think that was a big issue with Dave running it. Some of the easiest disputes where solved in 2 posts (Street Fighter disputes where using a "continue" netted single digit points) and they sat there for quite some time. That is something TG could test in 5 minutes with an emulator, which are everywhere on the internet. The longer a dispute festers, the worse things get. Learn from our past, Todd Rogers, Billy Mitchell, Triforce Legend, and now Rodrigo's submissions are what I am referring too.

    The old database has relevance. Think about this; without the old TG database being here/ever existing, we may not even have ALL the strict guidelines it takes to have a score accepted now. Why? Because we have learned from prior mistakes. Just in my 4-5 years here, we went from third party subs to mandatory uploading. Direct captures are seeming to have a little more difficult time because people just don't trust not seeing a live boot up. Speaking of boot up, that seems to be a necessity and even showing the console is requested many times. It's easy to say "of course those things would be here now regardless if old TG existed" but man I would find that hard to believe.

    We are learning from those mistakes. We need those old scores around to improve upon and to learn from. Hell, @Barthax has needed to reference many times certain scores being accepted/rejected for whatever reason on TGSAP submissions. Without those scores, he never would have known that stuff.

    As for people outside the TG community "waiting" for TG to get rid of the old scoreboard before they join because they think it's a joke...really? They could join the site and start to dispute them and help solve the problem. And I don't care what people say, I guarantee there are fake runs on speedrun.com that haven't been found yet.

    The issues spawning from the dispute system are just getting started. Speaking of issues spawning up from the dispute system, is it not weird Tom Duncan has even said he wants his scores removed in a few posts found by members? That just seems weird given the dispute system and old refs losing their scores and being banned doesn't it?

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  3. EVN's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185

    They could join the site and start to dispute them and help solve the problem. And I don't care what people say, I guarantee there are fake runs on speedrun.com that haven't been found yet.


    Are you kidding me? why would anyone in their right mind want to join this community and waste their lives trying to dispute scores that have no video? It might well be that there are fake runs on other sites but if they require video there is at least a chance the cheaters can be caught.

  4. Tompa's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185

    As for people outside the TG community "waiting" for TG to get rid of the old scoreboard before they join because they think it's a joke...really? They could join the site and start to dispute them and help solve the problem. And I don't care what people say, I guarantee there are fake runs on speedrun.com that haven't been found yet.

    TG's reputation is long gone for saving, people won't start flooding here from SRC, as an example, just because TG gets rid of the old scores. However, it will help TG become a better and more trusthworthy site if it happens.

    We can't come here and start disputes, as first we need to vote on submissions to gain points. I had several scores I wanted to dispute, but I had to have Starcrytas dispute them for me (Donkey Kong Country, The Minish Cap) because I refuse to being forced to vote on "random submissions" just so that my expertise in a game could come in use. No one here has more knowledge on those two games than I do, but still my knowledge of those games aren't enough unless I have watched and voted on a submission for Dragster and Metropolis Street Racer...

    And yes, there are most certainly fake scores on SRC, no doubt about that and I have never heard anyone claim otherwise. No matter the method of verification, cheating a run is very easy when you know what to do. I can easily fake a run and submit either to SRC or TG, no one will notice. You can sit next to me while playing, I can still easilly cheat.

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  5. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by EVN



    Are you kidding me? why would anyone in their right mind want to join this community and waste their lives trying to dispute scores that have no video? It might well be that there are fake runs on other sites but if they require video there is at least a chance the cheaters can be caught.

    Have the cheaters not been caught in almost every dispute so far? Even TG in the Zelda dispute has realized hard evidence is very, very difficult to find with no video. Hell, his run could be possible (insanely unlikely given the evidence, but possible) and TG is giving him one last chance to post that video otherwise it's gone and so are his other scores. I'd say TGs own stance on "difinitive hard evidence" has even changed a bit. More towards a logical stance and thank Christ for that. I agree disputing scores takes a ridiculous amount of effort, buts it's happening. I'm sure many others are just as easy to prove impossible, just takes time.

    But yeah, I think the cheaters are being caught one at a time. And ALL their scores are going with them. Should help speed the process along.

    Tompa, you answered your own question. Just ask someone to dispute a score for you. I'll do it for you, PM me anytime. I just think the division between websites is based on old bad issues (rightfully so, that old leaderboard is a cluster **** right now) and not being base on the new things happening that are trying to rectify the mistakes. And your expertise would be greatly appreciated on those specific games. Anyones expertise from SRC would be of they ever helped.

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  6. Joonas's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Tompa


    We can't come here and start disputes, as first we need to vote on submissions to gain points. I had several scores I wanted to dispute, but I had to have Starcrytas dispute them for me (Donkey Kong Country, The Minish Cap) because I refuse to being forced to vote on "random submissions" just so that my expertise in a game could come in use. No one here has more knowledge on those two games than I do, but still my knowledge of those games aren't enough unless I have watched and voted on a submission for Dragster and Metropolis Street Racer...

    What an arrogant statement. The reason why you can't just register and right away dispute scores, is to prevent missuse of the dispute system and trolling. Adjudicating others scores is a core part of "participation" and helping the community; regardless how much the game you are voting on disgusts you. I'm sure this site is full of "experts".

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  7. Snowflake's Avatar

    I understand people not wanting to go through a huge effort to clean up a problem for someone else.

    guys, when you wanna do anything, go to the movies, go to an amusement park, go to a mall, go anywhere, if you realize a place is crap, do you try to volunteer to fix the place up, or do you just go elsewhere? even if the place would accept your help as tg would accept, so what, why would anyone try to help something when they can more easily create their own place, or go to a competitor that suits their needs better? so i dont agree with bashing speedrunners for not wanting to do our job for us. the fact they still care enough about tg at all to even talk about the issues is more help than we have the right to expect

    i do agree with joonas though thats theres a good reason to put rules on disputes. before the dispute system went live we had one member, now banned, outright admitting he was gonna challenge every score of a ref he didnt like. frankly, i also have my suspicoins of that ref, but that doenst mean you can just automatically dispute every single score. if any new person could challenge scores, banned members could create fake accounts and go on a rampage. right now, the effort to create a fake acccount and earn the 4000 cred is just to high, and if someone actually did go through that much effort, they could be banned and them they'd have to wait a long time to do it again

  8. Tompa's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Joonas


    What an arrogant statement. The reason why you can't just register and right away dispute scores, is to prevent missuse of the dispute system and trolling. Adjudicating others scores is a core part of "participation" and helping the community; regardless how much the game you are voting on disgusts you. I'm sure this site is full of "experts".

    Yes... I am well aware of all of this...

  9. Barthax's Avatar

    Is there any traction is asking TG to offer pre-TGSAP participants a free submission for those scores as a process to adding video? Such submissions would obviously go into the normal TGSAP queue for evaluation.

    I just saw the vision of my backlog increase by ~1750 submissions, regardless.

    Updated 11-18-2019 at 05:35 AM by Barthax
  10. D.B. Cooper's Avatar

    Jace has already said he isn't going to do anything at this time so this post is just another asking for the MAME inp's to be released. It's very frustrating that the pre TGSAP scores that have the best evidence still don't have the evidence attached. You can't argue "no vid no did" with my MAME scores. The inp's were there and now they aren't. And it's my opinion that this inp evidence is stronger than any current console or arcade score that's gone through TGSAP. Please put adding the inp's back a top priority and then please give those the same credit as TGSAP scores.


    I know it's been said that adding these back is a huge job. But I would think that as long as the file names are there, it shouldn't be that bad.

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  11. Barthax's Avatar

    In the pre-2010 era, there was a section on the site which defined the aims of Twin Galaxies and various reasons for its existence. Given this threads spitball nature & trying to find a resolution I have to ask: what is the aim of the current Twin Galaxies. Does that aim affect the discussion?

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