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Jace Hall
02-12-2020 at 03:26 AM
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Adding platforms...

Been thinking about the whole FPGA/EMU/Original platform intermix issue.

It is my opinion that it is probably best for Twin Galaxies to keep all platforms separated in terms of leaderboard participation at this time.

This means that things like FPGA will exist on their own hardware basis, and not be considered to be competitively "the same" as the original hardware they are trying to replicate.

Keeping things more pure in this manner may help adjudicators have greater clarity and reduce confusion.

With that in mind, Twin Galaxies will need to be more proactive and comprehensive in terms of adding platforms to its competitive list so that all can be served as needed.

I would ask the community to please try to provide a comprehensive list of additional platforms that Twin Galaxies should immediately add to help create opportunities for the users of those platforms to create tracks on and fairly compete with each other.

If there are any strong disagreements with this direction I am open to hearing the rationale.


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  1. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185


    Good idea here and it got me thinking of it another way. Why not just put PAL and NTSC tracks together so they are competing against one another? While I do realize real time speed running wouldn't work, but for games that have in game timers and points this could work. Then some of those PAL players that are crushing games can have their scores/ESI compared to all other scores.

    I've only competed on a few games both for PAL/NTSC, mainly my Tiger Woods scores. Those scores should just compete against one another. A score done on Pebble Beach for NTSC can easily/equally be competed against playing it in PAL. I've done it. This would be a great way to actually compare all world players to one another, and reduce a lot of tracks per game on TG. Less clutter, more accurate player vs player across the board.

    Yep, there are going to be issues for some games, but racing games with in game timers and golf games could be a start for this transition. Think this would be a great change if it's doable.

    There's lots of regional exclusives which will give an advantage in one way or another. Not to mention the original reason for segregating was because of differences in speed.

  2. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl

    shed out idea, sure to have issues to work out, but it could, in theory, mean adding a track could also automatically add ones for all of the categories.

    This is a great idea. If you add a track to a game, it adds it to all platforms for that game. The only issue that would arise here is that some games have a few revisions as they are added to new platforms. Up front though that would be great IMO.

  3. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax


    There's lots of regional exclusives which will give an advantage in one way or another. Not to mention the original reason for segregating was because of differences in speed.

    I figured as much, but just from playing the few games I've played on both regions up front, the only advantage is how well one can adjust to the speed difference. Still have to play the game. Some games are easier faster than slower and vice versa. I am so used to playing at NTSC speed, it takes me awhile to adjust to the PAL speed. I prefer the game moving faster. Golf games though, I'm all for putting those games together.

  4. sdwyer138's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by SincerelyFranny



    This one was in the works at some point in time.
    I think it just got pushed down on the list for some reason...
    I think it was because we needed to engineer these tracks so that they would not be added to the record count due to their non-competitive nature. Also, a criteria for creating tracks on this "Platform" would need to be set in place.

    Do you have any suggestion for those criteria?

    I guess I'm not sure what you mean here. I picture it as very informal, global site rules need not apply, games can be played in any way and with any goal that the track creator sets out. But it would always be playing a game in a non traditional way (Dragster blindfold) or achieving a goal outside of standard game play (DK attarct challenge).

    Creating and funding the track and submitting and voting on the performance would work the same as it does now.


    These are just my initial thoughts. I would like the community to also offer ideas.

  5. RaGe's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185


    Good idea here and it got me thinking of it another way. Why not just put PAL and NTSC tracks together so they are competing against one another? While I do realize real time speed running wouldn't work, but for games that have in game timers and points this could work. Then some of those PAL players that are crushing games can have their scores/ESI compared to all other scores.

    I've only competed on a few games both for PAL/NTSC, mainly my Tiger Woods scores. Those scores should just compete against one another. A score done on Pebble Beach for NTSC can easily/equally be competed against playing it in PAL. I've done it. This would be a great way to actually compare all world players to one another, and reduce a lot of tracks per game on TG. Less clutter, more accurate player vs player across the board.

    Yep, there are going to be issues for some games. Racing games with in game timers and golf games could be a start for this transition. Think this would be a great change if it's doable. Also, it would eliminate the need for myself and others from having to put up double scores (one for NTSC, one for PAL) on an identical track for the same game. Again, back to Tiger Woods. Instead of me needing to play Tiger Woods 04 on NTSC and PAL to compete on the exact same track on the both regions, my one score on NTSC would already be competing against everyone. As a fail safe, TG could still have some sort of option in the submission form to select what region you are playing the game in, just in case there is an unknown advantage when playing in a certain region the tracks/scores can then be easily separated.

    This would be great, but there are games that have big differences between regions. One game comes to mind immediately - Road Rash 3 for the Genesis. It uses an in-game timer, but the times are totally different between PAL and NTSC (PAL times are much slower...RR1 and RR2 don't have this issue). Seems like the in-game timer is running in real time. I've noticed other games with region differences over the years, but can't recall them now. I always remember RR3, because the times are so noticeably different.
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  6. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185


    I figured as much, but just from playing the few games I've played on both regions up front, the only advantage is how well one can adjust to the speed difference. Still have to play the game. Some games are easier faster than slower and vice versa. I am so used to playing at NTSC speed, it takes me awhile to adjust to the PAL speed. I prefer the game moving faster. Golf games though, I'm all for putting those games together.


    (Sorry, Man...)

    That's just not how it works.

    I'm very non technical, but there are frame differences from NTSC to PAL that cause timers to react completely differently.

    There's no "personal adjustment" one is going to make that will let them go as fast on PAL Super Mario Kart as they can on NTSC Super Mario Kart, tho I don't keep up with this type stuff, I'd bet my left nut that's TAS proven.


    Super Monaco/Ayrton on Genesis, same thing.


    I've just done too much, at a reasonably high level, on PAL and NTSC versions of the same game, and it's apples and oranges.


    I enjoy experiencing PAL, because it's "different", I definitely don't think they should be combined, but I *might* agree that NTSC and PAL should be separated as separate leaderboards.


    But yeah, definitely, Man, I'm sorry, I KNOW you are AWESOME, but "still have to play the game" doesn't cover the inherent achievable "possibilities" of a given game across PAL and NTSC.


    OHHH!

    Super Punch Out, SNES!!!

    I'm telling you, on "pixel perfect" attempts(which all things really break down to!), they just aren't the same...

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  7. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Ok. This thread is going a bit all over the place in terms of focus, as there are many different types of issues referenced.

    I'd like to try to work through all of the items step-by-step if possible.

    The first step I would like to handle is just adding the platforms that the community feels are missing.

    Again, this is not about splitting/rearranging platforms that may already be on Twin Galaxies - I am talking about platforms that are completely missing.

    I've seen a couple of suggestions in this thread regarding that, but not many.

    Let's see if we can generate a complete list of missing platforms and simply get them added as a first step.

    If you can think of any, please add them to this thread.

    Many thanks.

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  8. thegamer1185's Avatar

    @Rogerpoco , You guys would know way more about it than me. I was merely stating that NTSC games play faster, PAL games play slower, but (i assumed which I shouldn't) the games themselves still operated accordingly time wise in game. So the advantage would be simply what region you are comfortable with. After a few attempts in Space Gun, I finally got used to both the NTSC and PAL versions of the game but it didn't change how I played the game, if that makes sense. Again, most of you know way about this than me so I will absolutely take your word for it, haha.

    @Jace Hall Has TG made a ruling on backwards compatible games being allowed even if they are emulated on First party hardware? Those consoles would be what I recommend if it is deemed NOT allowed to play backwards compatible games - PS2, PS3, Xbox 360, Xbox One. If you want to play a PS1 game on your PS3, the game would be tracked under the new PS3 Backwards compatible platform (or whatever you would choose to name it). This would also keep the original PS3 platform clean from EMU tracks that people aren't overly found of. You just copy the original games tracks to the new platform if possible. Basically, if the game isn't played on it's original intended hardware, it's tracked under the first party console you are playing it on whatever that may be.

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  9. thegamer1185's Avatar

    Super Game Boy might be one to add. It's not allowed to speed run and it technically emulates games. If we are already considering not allowing backwards compatible games being played on first party hardware because they emulate, then Super Game Boy has to follow this trend as well.

    Another console to consider is adding New Nintendo 3DS XL platform. We already know Hyrule Warriors plays differently on it than an original Nintendo 3DS...I really don't want these platforms to be split but since we are talking about fair play here, there is difference in play that makes it not fair across the board. I am not sure what other games could be effected but I'm sure a google search will help make that decision.

    Updated 02-12-2020 at 10:36 PM by thegamer1185
  10. GibGirl's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall

    Let's see if we can generate a complete list of missing platforms and simply get them added as a first step.

    If you can think of any, please add them to this thread.

    Many thanks.

    Was the wiki page not sufficient?

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/wiki_index.php?title=Platforms-Missing

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  11. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by GibGirl

    Apologies, I missed this.

    It's quite sufficient. Is that all there is? Or should I give it a few more days to accumulate more?

    It's currently kind of a pain to add platforms, so I'd like to do as many at once as I can....


  12. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185

    @Jace Hall Has TG made a ruling on backwards compatible games being allowed even if they are emulated on First party hardware? Those consoles would be what I recommend if it is deemed NOT allowed to play backwards compatible games - PS2, PS3, Xbox 360, Xbox One. If you want to play a PS1 game on your PS3, the game would be tracked under the new PS3 Backwards compatible platform (or whatever you would choose to name it). This would also keep the original PS3 platform clean from EMU tracks that people aren't overly found of. You just copy the original games tracks to the new platform if possible. Basically, if the game isn't played on it's original intended hardware, it's tracked under the first party console you are playing it on whatever that may be.

    Still thinking on this...

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  13. MyOwnWorstEnemy's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185

    @Rogerpoco , You guys would know way more about it than me. I was merely stating that NTSC games play faster, PAL games play slower, but (i assumed which I shouldn't) the games themselves still operated accordingly time wise in game. So the advantage would be simply what region you are comfortable with. After a few attempts in Space Gun, I finally got used to both the NTSC and PAL versions of the game but it didn't change how I played the game, if that makes sense. Again, most of you know way about this than me so I will absolutely take your word for it, haha.

    There's always some exceptions that needs to be consider before lumping NTSC and PAL into a single leaderboard. Sometimes the actual game has regional differences in the ROMs that can be observed in the gameplay. In Gran Turismo 2, there are different gold / silver / bronze goals for some of the license tests. There might even be some subtle changes in car selection between NTSC Japan and NTSC NA. The later I'd have to confirm.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185
    @Jace Hall Has TG made a ruling on backwards compatible games being allowed even if they are emulated on First party hardware? Those consoles would be what I recommend if it is deemed NOT allowed to play backwards compatible games - PS2, PS3, Xbox 360, Xbox One. If you want to play a PS1 game on your PS3, the game would be tracked under the new PS3 Backwards compatible platform (or whatever you would choose to name it). This would also keep the original PS3 platform clean from EMU tracks that people aren't overly found of. You just copy the original games tracks to the new platform if possible. Basically, if the game isn't played on it's original intended hardware, it's tracked under the first party console you are playing it on whatever that may be.

    If 1st party emulation is deemed not comparable with original hardware, I'd suggest that it's tracked as emulation for the platform the game was designed to play. So in your example, the platforms impacted would be PS1 (original hardware) and PS1 Emulated (backward compatible emulation). 3rd party software emulation would also get lumped in the PS1 emulated platform. Also, maybe when submitting to any emulated platform, have a drop down of 'approved' emulated methods as a required fileld for the submission. It will make it easier to segregate the leaderboard further if material differences are noted sometime down the road.



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  14. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by MyOwnWorstEnemy

    If 1st party emulation is deemed not comparable with original hardware, I'd suggest that it's tracked as emulation for the platform the game was designed to play. So in your example, the platforms impacted would be PS1 (original hardware) and PS1 Emulated (backward compatible emulation). 3rd party software emulation would also get lumped in the PS1 emulated platform. Also, maybe when submitting to any emulated platform, have a drop down of 'approved' emulated methods as a required fileld for the submission. It will make it easier to segregate the leaderboard further if material differences are noted sometime down the road.

    Not sure how the WolfMAME fields work behind the scenes but seems like this situation could be comparable - submitting for EMU PS1 using PS2/PS3/PS4/PS5. Similar scenario on numerous other EMU tracks across the scoreboard.

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    Updated 02-13-2020 at 06:51 AM by Barthax
  15. Barthax's Avatar

    What is it that makes the PSP Go sad, the Xbox 360 blush and the Dreamcast controller cry?

  16. MyOwnWorstEnemy's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax

    What is it that makes the PSP Go sad, the Xbox 360 blush and the Dreamcast controller cry?

    I like riddles... but lousy at coming up with the right answer. Here's some more wrong answers - obsolescence or overexposure.... maybe low battery charge?

  17. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by MyOwnWorstEnemy


    I like riddles... but lousy at coming up with the right answer. Here's some more wrong answers - obsolescence or overexposure.... maybe low battery charge?


    I guess the artist will have the answer: like why is the top screen of the DS noticing the Xbox 360 controller falling off the telly? The Mega Drive controller may have noticed but seems nonplussed by it. Ooo... that must be why the 360 is embarrased. Can't see why the Dreamcast Controller is crying over it, mind you! ... and the PSP Go is sweating under the weight of the Vista, not sad. The Vista seems to be full of egotistical self-importance yet we all know it's just a second PS4 controller to compete with the Wii-U's controller really. :P

    Updated 02-14-2020 at 06:11 AM by Barthax
  18. Jace Hall's Avatar

    Dear Community,

    I've been notified by @admin staff that the platforms have been added that were listed in:

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/wiki_index.php?title=Platforms-Missing

    If you get a moment to confirm that this has been completed and update the wiki that would be extremely helpful!

    Thank you.


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  19. Snowflake's Avatar

    oh man i forgot about this thread. Jace i thought of this issue abit. we're all pretty theoretical and will sometimes request a platform even though we'll never play on it. What i was thining would be great is a "miscellanious" platform where one field recorded as a free text field where the person enters the platform. then you'd see which platforms would actually get real tracks created and subs. once there was enough tracks for "platform x" under the miscellanious category it could justify being split out to its own platform. Something like this could even be automated, with human admin only needing to step in for things like spelling errors resulting in the same platform being treated as different ones. It would also save you time as you could just wait and see what platforms people would actulaly use.

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  20. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall

    Dear Community,

    I've been notified by @admin staff that the platforms have been added that were listed in:

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/wiki_index.php?title=Platforms-Missing

    If you get a moment to confirm that this has been completed and update the wiki that would be extremely helpful!

    Thank you.



    A little bit of research would have gone a long way... "1292 Advanced Programmable Video System (Audiosonic) / VC 4000 (Interton) [VC 4000 is a popular clone of the 1292]" is not the best name for a platform. ;)

    I would suggest:

    1292 Advanced Programmable Video System / VC 4000

    or maybe even:

    1292 / 1392 / VC 4000

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