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Jace Hall
06-25-2020 at 11:00 AM
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FPGA


Should Twin Galaxies create a FPGA platform category, and then just have any game / platform EMU track that uses FPGA be created there? It would be pretty varied in terms of what gets listed but there would at least be a place for all FPGA EMU Games...

Suggestions?

The goal is to support FPGA but not create a ton of platforms / clutter.....

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  1. GibGirl's Avatar

    So, here's my first thought with that. With things like the MiSTer happening, we have a number of arcade games, and entire consoles, that are being done that way. And then we have the Analogue NES, SNES, and Genesis consoles. So if everything just went under a FPGA platform, you'd have the equivalent of a significant number of existing platforms all placed under this one, new platform. If this did take off, it seems it would become very unwieldly very quickly.


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  2. Snowflake's Avatar

    This is still a split but I think most FPGA people would like a merge. Would the FPGA tracks allow real hardware as well?

    As long as the FPGA is scout modernizing and including both FPGA and original then I think it would be good

  3. sdwyer138's Avatar

    I'm still a fan of having minis or other licensed plug and plays, whatever clone/knockoff systems, and emu be included in the main platform. But I know that's an unpopular opinion.

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  4. GibGirl's Avatar

    so, here's a visual reprise of an idea I've had before for how to manage EMU tracks. Create a "category" used to filter the tracks you're viewing. A dropdown on the game page. Like this:



    And once you select, you only see tracks from that particular category:


    In this case, all the tracks you see would be those marked as "FPGA" tracks. The category becomes a new "attribute" of the track, and stops being in the title.

    I realize it's probably not an easy change, and would mean a lot of manual work assigning categories to existing tracks, editing names to clean it up, changing the track creation flow. But I feel a thorough design and implementation could be a much improved way to handle this AND solve the existing question of how to deal with EMU tracks.

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  5. HAN's Avatar

    Ideally, there should be a "master" leaderboard where scores/times of the same game all get grouped/compared against each other. I can't count how many times I've seen an amazing score done on a compilation disc or emulator that gets no mention when the original hardware/console "World Record" gets all kind of kudos. Scoring is scoring, not treating them as equals is gatekeeping - plain and simple.

    Original hardware/emu/fpga/compilation track for Ghouls n Ghosts on speedrun.com: some emu, a couple on original hardware, most from Japan region rom, even the ps2 compilation disc - all in one place. Filter it if you want to see hardware only, but compare them all against each other:

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  6. EVN's Avatar

    "Platform" should just be variable on all tracks, the purists can filter out everything but real hardware if they want to.


    The way we create new tracks for new platforms is unsustainable, how many compilations, mini consoles, mini arcade cabinets, emulators, fpgas etc do we wanna have going forward?

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  7. Snowflake's Avatar

    i guess since we're all going all over the place i'll again add my refrain. make it a hierarchy. then "the hat" is happy that things are merged on the higher level and the purists are happy for the lower level, and jace is happy there isnt too much clutter.

    while we'll alll disagree on best implementaion though can i suggest we also answer jace's question in the process? yes, give fpga a platform, but while you're at it, consider these suggestions on better ways to do it

  8. Fly's Avatar

    What's FPGA?

  9. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Fly

    What's FPGA?

    jrok is an example of fpga. not being a jerk but technical to explain, look it up. net result is while its "emulation" in the snese that one thing is "emulaitng" another it is not "emulation" in the sense we normally use the word. in theory (and in testing to best of my knowledge) fpga shows no differences from the real thing

  10. redelf's Avatar

    For arcade it should just be treated exactly like Arcade no need to create new tracks. It's getting really hard to keep arcade games running. For the most part you can't tell the difference, and I haven't run into any case where there has been a difference major enough to get all up in arms and stuff.

    It's gonna happen to every piece of equipment, your gonna be able to get an FPGA replacement for it. I'd much rather play on an FPGA, they are reliable and they are cheaper in some cases than the real thing.

    I'd say start allowing them into the real hardware tracks and not make any more. Keep an open document or wiki that tells what is what and have open discussions when an issue comes up and make a decision then. We have the ability to put so many data points, flags, registers, and notes on anything we do now that we can now undo anything that is done.

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  11. GibGirl's Avatar

    I would definitely say that I don't think FPGA should be it's own platform. It'll be too messy and complicated to manage.

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  12. nads's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by HAN

    Ideally, there should be a "master" leaderboard where scores/times of the same game all get grouped/compared against each other. I can't count how many times I've seen an amazing score done on a compilation disc or emulator that gets no mention when the original hardware/console "World Record" gets all kind of kudos. Scoring is scoring, not treating them as equals is gatekeeping - plain and simple.

    Original hardware/emu/fpga/compilation track for Ghouls n Ghosts on speedrun.com: some emu, a couple on original hardware, most from Japan region rom, even the ps2 compilation disc - all in one place. Filter it if you want to see hardware only, but compare them all against each other:

    I would really like it to be this way, it would save people ( Like myself ) subbing the same game across 3 tracks EMU, NTSC, PAL.

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  13. Garrett Holland's Avatar

    I've made this suggestion before, and I'm not too sure how popular it was/is, but we currently have 5 categories: Arcade, NTSC, PAL, and SECAM categories (all require original hardware) and Emulation. Perhaps simply change the word "Emulation" to "all others", which would include emulation, clones, and FPGA, and literally anything else.

    I'm up in the air about FPGA, though. Can a component that is functionally identical to original hardware be even considered "emulation"? Have any functionality variances been found in any FPGA set up? If not, I dont see any issue with updating "original hardware" to include new hardware that is functionally identical to the original, which emulators are not ... and it's not even close. We have confirmation that PAL, NTSC, SECAM, and emulators all have functional variance from each other, no matter how slight or profound. THAT'S WHY THEYRE CLASSIFIED DIFFERENTLY. I know for a fact that in certain unnamed competitions on another unnamed website, some players have openly admitted to playing PAL versions to exploit the timing variance while competing against mainly NTSC players. Just to clarify, there is nothing wrong with that, because it was not against the rules of those competitions, and nothing was stopping us NTSC players from playing the PAL version ourselves. Combining all categories into one, especially emulation submissions, would cause more problems than it would solve, because they're just not the same. If we combine all the different hardware configurations into one, we may as well just combine all platforms into one. I know ... a ludicrous proposition. EXACTLY.

    If doing some sort of combine-all-into-one is being considered, I would hope that we change "emulation" into "all others", and then combine all others into "all others". If someone wants to whine and complain about one emulation having an advantage over another, they can simply play on original hardware then if they dont like the way the "all others" category works.

    Just my opinion.

    Updated 06-25-2020 at 10:33 PM by Garrett Holland
  14. swaggers's Avatar

    My beliefs have always been 2 categories per platform. Original and Everything Else. No need to differentiate Super Nes Mini and Emu, it's all just NOT Original.

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  15. bennbanasik's Avatar

    FPGA is the same as original hardware in regard to clock speed, sound and resolution. If FPGA was separated I can see a big headache and lot of work needed especially for console and home computer games with so many people using everdrives and equivalents. The separate listings ignores the different arcade board revisions that exist for certain arcade games. Equipment in other competitions or sports don't get listed unless they are significantly different and give an advantage or disadvantage to complete the task (speed of vehicle is one example but no one lists the different shoes runners use in order to sprint the 100m).

    Best way this late in the piece in my opinion is to count FPGA as original hardware, as it is presently done in console games. Of course list an emulation option for all tracks and have the master leaderboard as @HAN suggests. This would also bring TG in line with the speed running community that flatline the approach of playing games.

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