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John73
02-26-2018 at 01:24 AM
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OFFICIAL TG POLICY - MARATHONING V1.0

The thread, posted by Rob Mruczek back in 2003 can be found here for those who haven't read it:

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...rathoning-v1-0

To cut a long story short, there are several players looking to marathon very soon (I won't spill the beans on which game) and I'm hoping to provide come clarity to the marathon rules and particularly players taking breaks.

The above thread mentioned a V2.0 of the rules, but it doesn't look as one exists. A comment in the thread did mention that Guinness allowed a 5 minute break per hour of a marathon attempt, and that time could be banked; however a break of no more than 60 minutes could be taken at one time. This Guinness rule is at odds with the original post by Rob, but I can't see that it was ever addressed. My gut feeling is that Guinness would override Twin Galaxies with regards to this rule.

This still becomes ambiguous to me, can a player if capable, play for 24 hours straight, bank up a total of 2 hours of break time. Take a 1 hour break, play again for a minute, then take another 1 hour break?

What are the views of the community and Twin Galaxies regarding marathon attempts with particular view to breaks.

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Comments
  1. Dave Hawksett's Avatar
    Thanks for posting this. General rules covering marathons would be something great for us to nail down. I would like to see what the community feels about this.
  2. thegamer1185's Avatar
    I still think pausing for a break period should be allowed. There are many health risks that some people would take just to achieve a record. If a game is in full view as well as the controller during said break and while the game is paused, the adjudicators can see that no cheating has occurred. I've never understood willingly losing lives when a function, the pause function, is build into almost every single console game for this reason. If you had to hack a rom to pause it, then it would make sense. The pause button is already on every controller, the feature is a part of almost every game. Hell, I'm having a hell of time pausing for RECORDING purposes. Makes no sense. Pausing during breaks ONLY should be allowed.
    Updated 02-26-2018 at 07:44 AM by thegamer1185
  3. Snowflake's Avatar
    a few things about breaks in marathons, there are some semantics there.

    Consider the safe spot in pacman, thats sort of like a pause. For safe spots, guiness rules apply. Somewhere I remember reading the TG rules, and rather than giving speific rules, it just says TG uses guiness rules (whatever they might me)

    Compare that too just earning up lots and lots of extra lives and walking away. It could be arguedyou didnt take a break, so much as you played the game very poorly since the game was still continuing and you were still losing lives. Any break that comes from extra lives slowly being burne off can take as long as it takes.

    As for allowing pauses, thats currently not allowed (although there was once an exception for switching tapes, so I guess someone could come up with a creative argument to build off that). I understand gunness doesnt want people dying (nor would TG) but I also question the point of a competition when you remove what makes it difficult. With guinessses newest rules on marathons, its only now turned into a test of how many days you're willing to take of work, or how many days you're family will put up with you playing, or how much of you're like youll throw away. If you're that concerend about health i'd rather marathons be outlawed, and fitnsss tests ahead of time or something like that. Lowering the bar though where there's no longer any challenge other than how much time you can manage to waste I just doint see that as being a valuable form of competition. Its not testing skill, its not testing endurance, honestly, its only testing how privledged your life is. heck, if the goal is to just play a long time with no challenge, lets go back to the old days of allowing stitched scores. The stiched scores shows others did once feel the same way. So i suspect you're not alone and many agree with you, however, stitching scores was also eventually thrown out for a reason.
  4. Snowflake's Avatar
    actually there is a perfect compromise i should've said this first.

    I dont think we want to change rules on preexisting tracks. Its unfair marathoners of one day played by one set of rules, and then the rules are made to be easier. What about splitting the tracks though? Thats to track creation we alreayd have that option. Any marathon track you want, pauses, anything, whatever, put it explicitly in the track rules. Track rules always override global rules when stated explicitly. Make your track with any pause rules you like, let the other tracks stay as they were, and let people decide for themselves where they'd rather compete
  5. Blackflag82's Avatar
    My reading of the break was always as follows (though I admit, I may be wrong on this, it was always just my interpretation):

    Breaks: refer to places in the game where one can sit indefinitely and never die. The area in Super Pac-Man at the top of the screen allows one to park up there and sit and the ghosts will never get you. This would be a break spot. Or the change over screens on Dr. Mario. With the exception of the Arcade version which just starts after a few seconds, you have to press start to begin the next level. These to me are places one can take a break...They don't require pausing but they also one can't lose the game as a result of the break.

    Stepping away b/c of extra men built up: My view is as Snowflake outlined above, it's still playing the game, just poorly (or expertly depending on the timeline you view it on). Some games even net points as your character is killed each time, so you're still earning something.

    As for pausing, I've always felt it's a no-go, even in a marathon
  6. thegamer1185's Avatar
    I thought the time limit per break was 5 minutes every 3 hours? If that is the case, how is pausing your game to take a break really that big of an issue. Firstly, you get 15 minutes after 9 hours of play, you don't think endurance or the skill to keep playing at an efficient level with lack of sleep won't affect everyone? I understand that simply losing lives while the game is still playing is just playing poorly. I find it to be crazy thinking that a function already build into the game is not allowed? As I said, if someone pauses after the first 1 and half of playing, they are DQed since you don't get a break until 3 hours. I really need someone finding the harm in pausing a game, which every single person has that option it's not some trick, during your break?

    The number of lives you earned up to that point was still based on your play and strategy, the endurance factor and lack of sleep will start to take affect eventually. If you guys seriously want me pissing and ****ting in a bed pan just to attempt some record while I'm filming and you can hear that, I guess I will. It's so unnecessary though since we are all a simple button press away.

    Seriously though, someone find one example to counter this proposal. "After 3 hours you earn a 5 minute break to be used at your discretion. During that 5 minute break you are allowed to pause your game to preserve your score. You must place your controller in the view of the camera the entire time your game is paused or your play will be DQ'ed. This is done so no codes may be entered." Outside of a specific game that may give an advantage like resetting enemies/changing difficulty, etc, what is the harm in pausing during your 5 minute break. If you play for 18 hours, you have built up a whopping 30 minutes of break time. Pretty sure fatique will have set in whether you paused or not. I understand the rule is already in place for no pausing, I'm simply showing my argument as to why it makes no sense to not use a function that everyone can use.

    An advantage is I use a turbo controller and you don't. There is no advantage to anyone when pausing during your break. If the game doesn't have a pause feature, we all still play by the same rules and the game can't be pause. If the game has a pause feature, we all have that feature.
  7. Snowflake's Avatar
    if you're assumption is based on 5 minutes every 3 hours you'd be right. But it was 15 minutes every 4 hours (and that does add up), also, guinness is even more lenient now with 10 minutes every hour (i take that to mean 60 minutes of play 10 minutes of break, not 50 minutes of play 10 minutes of break).

    so i cant counter anything else you say since its all based on the incorrect assumption of 5 minutes every 3 hours. even still, if you'd like to make a track with those marathon rules of 5 minutes every 3 hours you can
  8. Snowflake's Avatar
    i'd also like to slightly redirect this conversation. I think the real confusion comes from global rules, marathons just being one of many globally handled rules. Global rules are asking for confusion. Especially since they cna be changed and therefore result with different peope playing under different rules. I've complained about this before, and we did eventually get a "global rules" section added to the tracks, however, the "global rules" sections remains blank. Perahps @Ben Way was hired to handle this sort of thing? Update the global rules section of tracks with the global rules as they applied at the time of track creation?
  9. Blackflag82's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185
    I thought the time limit per break was 5 minutes every 3 hours? If that is the case, how is pausing your game to take a break really that big of an issue. Firstly, you get 15 minutes after 9 hours of play, you don't think endurance or the skill to keep playing at an efficient level with lack of sleep won't affect everyone? I understand that simply losing lives while the game is still playing is just playing poorly. I find it to be crazy thinking that a function already build into the game is not allowed? As I said, if someone pauses after the first 1 and half of playing, they are DQed since you don't get a break until 3 hours. I really need someone finding the harm in pausing a game, which every single person has that option it's not some trick, during your break?

    The number of lives you earned up to that point was still based on your play and strategy, the endurance factor and lack of sleep will start to take affect eventually. If you guys seriously want me pissing and ****ting in a bed pan just to attempt some record while I'm filming and you can hear that, I guess I will. It's so unnecessary though since we are all a simple button press away.

    Seriously though, someone find one example to counter this proposal. "After 3 hours you earn a 5 minute break to be used at your discretion. During that 5 minute break you are allowed to pause your game to preserve your score. You must place your controller in the view of the camera the entire time your game is paused or your play will be DQ'ed. This is done so no codes may be entered." Outside of a specific game that may give an advantage like resetting enemies/changing difficulty, etc, what is the harm in pausing during your 5 minute break. If you play for 18 hours, you have built up a whopping 30 minutes of break time. Pretty sure fatique will have set in whether you paused or not. I understand the rule is already in place for no pausing, I'm simply showing my argument as to why it makes no sense to not use a function that everyone can use.

    An advantage is I use a turbo controller and you don't. There is no advantage to anyone when pausing during your break. If the game doesn't have a pause feature, we all still play by the same rules and the game can't be pause. If the game has a pause feature, we all have that feature.
    One example: NES Dr. Mario. Marathoning a low speed game is a fairly straightforward thing. It's one of those games where fatigue is likely to kill you before anything else. But let's say you're playing and building up a pretty big chain, you ***** up and misplace a virus and it might cost you the game. You have some space to maneuver, so you slide the next few viruses off to the side where they'll be out of the way and while doing that you take a picture of the screen with your phone. Then you pause the game. You spend a few minutes to calm down from the near death, figure out a plan of action, and then begin playing again with said and get through the level.

    The thing is, you can find examples like this (where pausing is beneficial to the game play) across a ton of games. So why would we allow pausing in marathons just because it makes bathroom breaks easier? Honestly, if peeing and ******* in a bucket is what you've gotta do, then it's what you've gotta do...don't use your viewing public as a reason that can't happen though.
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  10. Snowflake's Avatar
    i have a never submitted moustrap "marathon" (only 4 hours) where i go off camera to pee into a cup. man, there was a time i didnt have patience for just 4 hours. I do intend to beat that live one of these days and then submit.
  11. Dave Hawksett's Avatar
    Global rules, as well as potentially platform-specific rules, are things we are currently discussing. We will update everyone once we have made some decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake
    i'd also like to slightly redirect this conversation. I think the real confusion comes from global rules, marathons just being one of many globally handled rules. Global rules are asking for confusion. Especially since they cna be changed and therefore result with different peope playing under different rules. I've complained about this before, and we did eventually get a "global rules" section added to the tracks, however, the "global rules" sections remains blank. Perahps @Ben Way was hired to handle this sort of thing? Update the global rules section of tracks with the global rules as they applied at the time of track creation?
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  12. Ninglendo's Avatar
    I consider pausing during a gaming marathon the same as making everyone stop running in a marathon while you take a break. You are stopping everything completely for the most part.
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  13. thegamer1185's Avatar
    Didn't know there was this update to as you guys say, 5 min every hour. You are correct, that does add up. Guess I haven't looked at the actual rules in awhile since they are so contradictory to themselves is kind of pointless. As it stands, not sure how I feel about that. I guess I think making someone play for 3 hours with no breaks deserves a paused break. If someone is playing for 1 hour and gets a 5 minute break, I agree, no pausing and the endurance factor does kind of go out the window.

    It's entirely different situation knowing I have to play for 3 hours straight (hence my endurance argument) than playing for 1 hour and being allowed a break.
  14. thegamer1185's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninglendo
    I consider pausing during a gaming marathon the same as making everyone stop running in a marathon while you take a break. You are stopping everything completely for the most part.
    If we were all playing a game at the exact same time for some timing competition, I agree with you. It's up to you to stop playing if you want while the others get to play thus completing the game before you do.

    If your talking about my score compared to your score a few days from now, my pausing when I want doesn't affect your pausing when you want as long as they follow the same rules.

    One is a group thing which would affect the other people competing against you giving you an advantage of control over them, the other is an individual thing and I would compare it to using a certain type of controller over another because you prefer too. Your individual performance against my individual performance.

    Speaking of controllers, it we are so concerned about how things are timed/paused I have to bring up the argument that everyone must play using the same controllers then.
  15. Ninglendo's Avatar
    Think of the game as the other people running the marathon instead of me vs you in a marathon. If you take a break during a real marathon the event doesnt stop it continues with or without you.
  16. Blackflag82's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185
    One is a group thing which would affect the other people competing against you giving you an advantage of control over them, the other is an individual thing and I would compare it to using a certain type of controller over another because you prefer too. Your individual performance against my individual performance.
    Are you suggesting we should be able to pause a game whenever we want? Because the way I read your wording the implication is that we should be able to pause anytime we want - marathon or not.

    Adding a pause option for a marathon because it is longer is arbitrary.
  17. Blackflag82's Avatar
    Ultimately there is a ton about why pausing isn't acceptable that has already been written on this site and others...sometimes it affects randomness, sometimes it gives an advantage in positioning or gameplay, in the case of marathoning it gives a chance to step away from the game after a close call and allows one to regroup...there are lots of reasons.

    If I'm only playing a game for an hour but I drank a lot of sweet tea, shouldn't I be allowed to pause so I can go to the bathroom, or should I be expected to plan my attempts better? - I feel like this is what this argument boils down to
  18. John73's Avatar
    Thank you all for the input so far.

    I will say, the game in question does not have a pause function - so while that topic is something that needs to be ultimately be addressed, it is of no concern for the upcoming marathon.

    The original argument in the V1.0 thread about players taking breaks and naturally allowing the game to continue and lose lives was posted by Permafrostrick, pointing out that Q*Bert allows for much quicker building of lives (by good players) and therefore they could take more breaks. Compare this to Gyruss, where I'm told 24 hours of perfect play will allow you a 15 minute break before lives run out.

    Given the above, I'm not sure it really matters if Q*Bert players can easily get longer breaks more often, all Q*Bert players will have the same advantages.

    Where it becomes an issue is if someone is competing not only on their game, but also against different marathon players to say "I played the longest marathon on any game". Games that allow longer break times, Q*Bert v Gyruss in this case, Q*Bert players have a distinct advantage. Sorry - this is probably taking this discussion on a new tangent.

    As for safety concerns, if a new policy is announced, I would strongly suggest anyone considering marathoning to think about their health very carefully. There have been several documented cases of people overdoing it and paying the ultimate price, and no one wants that.
  19. Blackflag82's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by John73
    Where it becomes an issue is if someone is competing not only on their game, but also against different marathon players to say "I played the longest marathon on any game". Games that allow longer break times, Q*Bert v Gyruss in this case, Q*Bert players have a distinct advantage. Sorry - this is probably taking this discussion on a new tangent.
    Not a new tangent - there are discussions about this in regard to the Iron Man competition (not sure if those threads are on TG or other classic gaming sites). In any case, my two cents - not all games are created equal, so we shouldn't try to make them. A decent qbert player will be able to marathon longer than the best Gyruss player. It'd be silly to choose Gyruss in a competition of that sort though. Games like Joust, Asteroids, Robotron (though it has its own problems), Qbert...all allow for large rest periods after the build up of lives...They don't necessarily build up extra lives as quickly, but there are other elements that may help out later on. For example, the cubes in Qbert can get trippy under sleep deprivation.
  20. danman1234's Avatar
    My understanding was the "old" rules was 5 minutes an hour 40 minutes MAX per break. Given that Guinness now has 10 minutes an hour with no limits on how long you take a break i think that should be the given ruleset. Basically people dropping dead while marathoning is why they did this and part of why dance marathons and the like are no longer accepted at all.


    1. So going forward it would be you get 10 minutes per hour of game time. You can "bank" up as much as you want and if you play for twelve hours you now have 120 minutes of "break" time.

    2. No pauses. IF the game lets you rest for 2 hours so-be-it. If not c'est la vie. Pausing only really matters for console games anyway. If its "built" into the game then its fine if its NOT then no dice. (Basically Donkey Kong and I think even Journey for the 2600 require you press the button to start the level so until you do its "paused" If this is how the game is built to play its fine but pausing "manually" should not be allowed.

    3. Single credit none of this "stitched together" nonsense.

    Sure games that let you built up hundreds if not thousands of extra lives will let you rest longer but that really doesnt matter here does it?

    Dan
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