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hopefully this isnt a trap, this is an important discussion

first, nice choice. i played turltes on the odyssey 2 and loved it great game

there are some precedents you can look at. this is one i think you'll win. i'm sure some people like me will frown on it for not being original, however, too bad for us, once the precedent is set its there. high score kits have been allowed many times. Frogger with @bensweeneyonbass is the only example i can call to mind but i know its been used before. what you're discussing here sounds a little more like the space invaders deluxe kit, but still, we're talking about a modification that allows you to run a rom on hardare identical to the hardware the rom was made for. for all practical purposes original hardware, that just happened to get a different rom put on it first.

we've seen rudy's hacked board to get around the suicide chip survive challenge

we currently see the street fighter 2 CE dash board debate still in the queue, you might want to follow that one as that can have some bearing on your answer as well

frankly, for me, i'm just about follow the rules, and if you dont like the rules, change them. I would have no problem with any of this as long as the rules were updated accordingly. honestly, i'd even be ok with a a rule that says you can use fake boards, or jroks or things liek that as long as they play perfectl. my objection to submitting jrok to arcade is simle that the rules outlaw it. i dont follow the rule cause i like, i follow the rule cause i believe its my job to enforce rules whether i like htem or not. if there was a change to allow things like jrok, or even closer, what you're talking about, i'd be fine with that too, i just want it officially ruled on.

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So to do my favorite comparison. This would make it basically a Stern "Everdrive" that just loads different roms onto a "console" type hardware? Sounds fine to me. I'm all for helping this kind of stuff go through. Once the game hits the hardware its the same. As long as that's true, I'm good with it.

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I have the Space Invaders high score save kit. It is an add-on board (sits between the original PCB and the processor). It saves the high scores, but what I really LOVE is that it adds 7 news games, all using the space invaders hardware. 8 sounds, variations on Space Invaders, some other cool games too. I hope that Space Invaders is still legit. I would hate to have to pop off the add-on board just to set a 500th place score. :)

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I would love to see some kind of statement regarding multikits based on original arcade hardware.

I own quite a few now:
-Darksoft Capcom CPS2 Multi
-Darksoft Capcom CPS3 Multi
-Darksoft Multi MVS Neo Geo Multi Cart
-Darksoft Sega STV Multi
-Sega Naomi with a NetDIMM

I submitted once for Super Street Fighter 2 on the Darksoft board and though it was ultimately accepted, it put me off trying to explain these things to suspicious people here forever. Looking back I would have been better off to spend the hours I spent writing forum posts explaining myself just doing overtime at work, with the money I would have earned I would have straight up bought several original CPS2 kits.

The best way to do whatever you want seems to be to just do it and not mention it like this guy.

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I am also curious. I would love to get a Darksoft Neo Geo MVS multicart.

High score save kits should be allowed. Noted, but allowed. I'm all for noting what's being used and accepting it if it looks fine. Then if something comes up for a particular add-on, mod, rom, multi etc. the scores can be reviewed for what non-original equipment is being used.

Let Them Play Games, I say. I didn't always feel that way but I firmly feel that way now. Hell, I didn't always like EverDrives being submitted, but I never voted NO and never discouraged. I just personally didn't like it.

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And once I actually finish restoring the machine, I'm going to push and fight to have the Atari Gauntlet Slapstik hack ruled acceptable too...

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Originally Posted by GibGirl

And once I actually finish restoring the machine, I'm going to push and fight to have the Atari Gauntlet Slapstik hack ruled acceptable too...

I will lose my mind if the community cry about that after the Splatterhouse fiasco.

Originally Posted by Snowflake

hopefully this isnt a trap, this is an important discussion

This isn't a trap :)

Truth be told, I'm more than likely going to buy one of these regardless, having scores accepted on TG using this kit would be a big bonus though.

Originally Posted by Snowflake

frankly, for me, i'm just about follow the rules, and if you dont like the rules, change them. I would have no problem with any of this as long as the rules were updated accordingly. honestly, i'd even be ok with a a rule that says you can use fake boards, or jroks or things liek that as long as they play perfectl. my objection to submitting jrok to arcade is simle that the rules outlaw it. i dont follow the rule cause i like, i follow the rule cause i believe its my job to enforce rules whether i like htem or not. if there was a change to allow things like jrok, or even closer, what you're talking about, i'd be fine with that too, i just want it officially ruled on.

Believe me, I am for the rules as much as anyone, but the Funspot accepting threw all my faith in "TG getting back on the 100% legitimate or it's not in" that I thought we'd see after Mitchell, Rogers etc.

Maybe it's time to add an additional field to the high score tables as DKF does which notes of any anomalies? Board has a save kit, addon kit, player didn't film PCB but arcade appears to be legitimate, board was a bootleg.

I don't want the scoreboard to become more complex, but I think that ship has already sailed with scores in the database that IMO shouldn't have passed adjudication.

At least with this approach, it will be easy in the future to bulk remove these scores if the community decides in hindsight that the scores shouldn't have been accepted in the first place?

Originally Posted by John73

Maybe it's time to add an additional field to the high score tables as DKF does which notes of any anomalies? Board has a save kit, addon kit, player didn't film PCB but arcade appears to be legitimate, board was a bootleg.

This is precisely what I had in mind by saying "Note it, but allow it." I love that DKF tracks it all (and even mixes MAME and Arcade - what a world!) and I think it's important that if there's ever any question they can go back and delineate which submissions were done with what component(s) and board set(s).

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I agree. I think that they should be allowed and have it specifically noted in the scoreboard what type of variation it is. As an added bonus, it would be great if you could filter the list - if you so chose - to exclude any variation, just for information purposes (just say you wanted to see who's the best 'original untouched pcb' highscorer).

My opinion is that if someone finds out 2 years down the road that a specific variation has a bug or particular advantage, then that can be disputed. For acceptance into the leaderboard to begin with, there's just too much information to know and no one has the ability to investigate every intricate detail of a game's gameplay. That will all come out in time as more people participate (because it's more open) and more people understand how the games work.

I plan to have a crack at Out Run arcade at some point, and my PCB has a highscore save and freeplay mod in it. I guess I'll face the same questions and scrutiny when (if) I finally submit a score.

nice, it seems most of us on board with "allow but note"

if i may get a little bitter and negative (not at anyone here but tg). I find it odd, that jrok which has super thorough testing and has been proving to play identical is split to a seperate platform, whereas numerous modifications that havent been so thoroughly tested are merged. heck, in asteroids they even allowed a speedup hack -- and remmeber for marathons playing the game faster actually makes it easier since you dont have to endure as long

so why does tg seperate things with proven identical play but merge things with different play? though they never admit it, the only pattern i can find is whos toes you step in. Joel west got beaten in berzerk by people using jrok and made a big stink how they cant be merged. you know, the same guy that when he was beat even on a real board, created a new rule and new track preventing the tactic that beat him and had his score moved to that new rule track even though theres zero proof he actually followed that rule but hey who cares if he submitted to the old rule track, lets jut move his score to the new track rule just so that less people beat him and his pal whos now in prison. real stand up guys.

its more than just billy mithcel allowed to play on mame and not even show his board or have a live witness, its more than everyone else having to jump through all sorts of hoops. rules in place for a select few favorites extend quite a bit beyond mitchel and the more you dig the more frustrated i think alot of you are gonna get

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oh and let me add to that, though speed up kit has allowed for asteroids, high score kit wasnt. so same game even, apples to apples. are you gonna honestly tell me refs seriouslyu thought a speed up hack was more acceptable than high score kit? only difference is the guy with the high score kit was not well liked by some refs and so bam, dq for him.

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The speed up hack for Asteroids was allowed because Walter and Leo Daniels were buddies. The high score kit is not allowed because it causes the game to play different. In Asteroids, the big ship can come out when the score is zero to 30k. Using real hardware the game rolls every 100k while the high score kit changes that to 1M therefore changing how often the big ships appear during your game. If someone wanted to submit a sub 100k score using the high score kit, I would have no objections.

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thanks, the post i saw the answers were very evasive and screamed of bias. no one mentioned the high score kit difference in it, so it came off as very ingenuine to state disallowing that over mod but not mentioning the difference.

appreciated.

the acceptance of the speed up for leo though still shows the point of specail treatment rather than science affecting rules

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Fully agree on special treatment being a problem in the past, and thus leading to inappropriate precedents.

I'd like to think that the guiding light when determining the acceptability of a performance/hardware/software/etc. is that the playability is the same. In the Asteroids instance (thanks again Dick for the insight on that) both the speedup hack and the high score kit cause the game to play differently, and in a pretty obvious manner it seems. Neither should have been allowed.

It's one thing to not notice something latent and have it come up later. If it can be seen up front that it doesn't play the same, it should be an instant DQ.

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This also ties into @timmell earlier request to split ntsc/pal/emu

At one point not only were they all on the same cosole, they were all on the same track, despite proven differences being found. clearly tg finally made the right call, but man you should read the threads, it was a fight with counter arguments to the line of "well sure they're different but not different enough to justify a split".

splitting differences, as well as merging identicals are different sides to the same coin. "allow but note" handles both. I dont see either issue going away and I really hope admin is looking at both.

Originally Posted by Snowflake

so why does tg seperate things with proven identical play but merge things with different play? though they never admit it, the only pattern i can find is whos toes you step in. Joel west got beaten in berzerk by people using jrok and made a big stink how they cant be merged. you know, the same guy that when he was beat even on a real board, created a new rule and new track preventing the tactic that beat him and had his score moved to that new rule track even though theres zero proof he actually followed that rule but hey who cares if he submitted to the old rule track, lets jut move his score to the new track rule just so that less people beat him and his pal whos now in prison. real stand up guys.

Which Joel west Berzek score .track we talking about?

Frankly, all of them. buti only disputed one to keep the conversation centralized

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/188428-Dispute-william-rosa-Arcade-Berzerk-Fast-Bullets-Random-Play-(No-Pattern-Allowed)-Player-Joel-West-Score-76-850

I lay out sources in the dispute so i'll give the summary here but go to the dispute if you want to be see my back up.

originally berzerk had no specific rules other than the obvious. settings, no glitches, oringal hardware, blah blah blah

someone then beat the old "experts" by learning where the best areas for points are, and just looped those areas.

Joel used a bait and switch suggesting a new track be created for those who dont use a pattern (despite joel himself mapping the game out and using a pattern of his own, just not a box pattern). everyone agreed to this. he then(see footnote below) though put all the old scores on the new track that outlawed the tactic and only put the new score on the old track which alowed the tactic. problem is, even though sure, probably he and others didnt use the tactic, that was never verified back when they submitted. the ref judging his and others score wouldnt have checked for that tactic since it wasnt outalwed at the time

this is especially bad, because his wording of the new rules is so all encompassing that even if you reenter the same room once by accident its a DQ. well come on, at that point surely at least one person did that once. he does way more than just outlaw the tactic in use. additionaly, to follow his "random" rules you most certainly can not play random since random play would eventually result in accidnetally reenetering a rule -- but thats a seperate complaint.

the real outrage, is someone didnt like him and his pals getting beat, so they changed the rules, split the tracks, and even worse, gave himself and his pals credit for doing what was once verified on the anything goes track and just havin the scores blindly moved to the more strict track with zero evidence the strict rules were followed. this was all after the deception of when he initially made the request making it sound like he just wanted a split but would keep scores where they belong.

footnote: now when i say "he" did it., i dont know for sure who entered what. and alot of the info there comes from facebook and private conversations. so not provable to dispute level, but frankly, the bait and switch and fact he played under one set of rules, but now his score is entered under a different set of rules is all that really matters. my talk of how he pulled off the scam is more to set context and explain how such a thing could happen. He was buddies with richie knuckles and used his friendship to get his way. i dont know if he was given a password and did it himself or was just given the privledge of having his requests made into rule, but one way or theother, the split, as well as unjustfly putting scores on the wrong track came from him.

footnote2: for those who think the name "joel west" sounds vaguley familiar, this is the liar who asked for a deadline extention in the billy mitchel dispute to get evidence and witness accounts that he knew existed but just needed time. not only did he miss the extended deadline, but he provided none of the promised evidence and instead used the time he bought to threaten lawsuits and gather what he thought was scary legal intimidation tactics to get the dispute shut down. huge liar, and you can see the billy dispute thread to catch him in the act of lying right there, also huge manipulator and intimidator which goes a way to explain how he did this all in the first place.

footnote3: he's also the guy that tried to pressure RTM into taking the hush money on TG issues. To be fair, he claimed (and others believed) he was acting on walters behalf, totally possible, but he was the one sending the letters and insults. someone else posted this packet with copies of the letters. its well known RTM and I dont get along so i cant tag him and ask for that prove, but he was very willing to share it with others, and why wouldnt he. no matter how i feel about him, insulting him for turning down hush money and continuing the pressure is a scumbag move that i would hope everyone agrees is unaccaptable. this is how joel west does things in the high score world.

+ 1 to have them be on the same track, but note anything not "original" that could be referenced later so that if differences are found, appropriate action can take place.

Also feel the same way about laser disc games with Dexter boards in them (Dexter replaces the laser disc player and disc, but leaves everything else original)

FPGAs that simulate real hardware like the Analog Super NT I also think should be on the same track as SNES hardware games, just noted.

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