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Joonas
03-05-2019 at 07:16 AM
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Leeching in games, members opinion needed!

So, I'm playing Alex Kidd in Miracle World (Sega Master System) at the moment and decided to check the TG leaderboards. There were only few scores and the only one done through TGSAP was the PAL Points track. The points tracks have ''Default Settings'' as the only rule.

Needless to say, I went and checked the records archive submission of the PAL top score. You can clearly see in the video that obvious leeching methods were used, yet this video/score was unanimously accepted.

Here is a link to that performance (Leeching starts at around 17:20):

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/146440-Sega-Master-System-Alex-Kidd-in-Miracle-World-PAL-Points-81-800-Steve-Badcock

My question is, if I use the same method and submit, will my score be accepted?

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Comments
  1. RTM's Avatar

    Looks like leeching to me. However, not knowing the game at all...
    -> Are there hidden timers (a-la "Green Beret")

    -> Does the capacity to do this inevitably end after, hypothetically, 10, 20, 30, 50 or however many iterations ?

    -> Does the game speed/difficulty remain static while doing so or substantially increase over time ?

    Depending on who you ask, it would seem, you might get different criteria that they use to determine "leeching" (aka "hunting", and "point scrabbing").

    Note that "point pressing" is generally regarded differently as it is a legitimate in-game tactic within the confines of acceptable rules.

  2. Snowflake's Avatar

    Man I havent played this game for years and my only game was to beat it so points never occured to me.

    I agree with RTM, based on appearances it looks like leeching (and a potential challenge, especially since its not fair to tell you know but allow it for the other submission).

    I have a vague memory though of the end of the game keeping track of how long it took. I could've sworn theres some benefit to speed, so in addition to RTMs questions my additional question would be

    ---> is there a reward for fast comletion?

    basically if you lose more point from the bonus then you gain for the leeching that could be taken into account as well i suppose.

  3. Snowflake's Avatar

    ok just looked up a playtrhough on youtube, my memory of timing must've been manual timing. so remove my question.


    before i issue a challenge, it has been a while, you do need to confirm there is no ingame timer. also, the unanimous acceptance, well, plenty of people dont watch the whole video. i've seen evidence that there are people who just check end score and dont verify every bit of gameplay. so rules like "5-life limit" for example sometimes slip through not enforced. so unless people in the thread explicitly state their ok with the tactic dont take it as an implied approval of said method

    thank you the question

  4. Snowflake's Avatar

    to be fair, much like section z, this game has a problem where accidental leeching is posbile. you can get lost and redo an area. although you're example shows it being done intentionally, it begs the question, what about accidents? do we just turn this into a game at whos better at faking it was on accident?

    games like this really shouldnt track points and should just be speed run because of that. or you can have a rule forcing no accidents, and accidetnally repeating is DQ -- thats not very desirable either not only will many adjudciators miss some loops that happen from getting lost, but DQ for an accident people can make means only the very best players are allowed to submit

    This is not a happy situation to be stuck with

  5. Joonas's Avatar

    I tested the leeching method myself and in 7 minutes accumulated 35000 points. There is an another part in that video where same kind of point grabbing is done (the last castle). It is only the two castle levels where this ''leeching'' can be done; in other levels the same enemies don't spawn after they have been killed.

    To my knowledge there is no ingame timer; I could test it more, but have a feeling the game would let you continue for hours.

  6. Snowflake's Avatar

    you dont have to test too long. can you imagine if in every leeching moment someone said "what if theres a timer noone knows about that kicks in after 30 hrs, until you go 30 hrs you cant be sure theres no timer".

    if there's no evidence of a timer, and it doesnt increase then no the method isnt allowed.

    i havent played the game since 2010 -- and i never played it as a kid. played it for the first time in 2010, obsessed fora few weeks, beat it 3 times, and packed it up. so though i was once an expert, my knowledge is now super weak and i need to reminded of most of it

    please though, if you have any doubts i dont want to rush into a dispute. perform any testing you need and once you're satisifed i'll launch the dispute of the score.

  7. Snowflake's Avatar

    @Retro-Steve of course might know something we dont, so tagging him here.

  8. Pearl2hu's Avatar

    if it can be done infinitely, it is an infinite milk/leech

  9. Joonas's Avatar

    Also I don't want this to come off as an attack particularly on Steve's score; especially since his score is the only one we members can see video of. The NTSC track has one score and it's 14000 points higher than Steve's (95800); would really like to see that DVD. I have calculated the max. score without leeching, and I'll just say that scoring over 90000 points without leeching would be an extremely impressive run.

  10. Snowflake's Avatar

    look in a way its true that tgsap scores get screwd compared to the old, but thats kinda the pont of tgsap. if you want the tgsap label near your name you have to earn it. TGSAP needs to mean something more. so thats no reason to give TGSAP a pass for known errors just because the old scores are hidden.

    as for steve in particular, its not an attack. noone is accusing him of cheating. Just because someone uses a banned tactic doesnt mean they knew it was wrong. honest mistakes happen. if this is leeching (and it sure looks like it is) and the score gets removed, there will be no punishemnt to steve. no rule agaisnt mistakes. no punishment for a score removal. i think some cheaters being punished has made peole paranoid that any mistake will result in a simliar punishment, such is not the case

    and as for the old scores themselves, yes without the video its darn near impossible to challenge fake old scores. proving a maxout is also very difficult as it always begs the question if theres some hidden points you dont know about. This is again where i fall back on, at least verification method is listed. and even if noone can beat the pre-tgsap score you can at least have the honor of having the highest TGSAP score. I know i personally a respect a fifth place score thats highest tgsap more than i respect a first place score thats pre-tgsap

  11. Retro-Steve's Avatar

    Wow, haven’t been on this site in a while - then someone tags me and I get an email.

    This may sound stupid but what is leeching?

    Also, didn’t really think my score would stand this long as I didn’t even complete the game lol

    ThanksSnowflake thanked this post
  12. Retro-Steve's Avatar

    Ok, I think I worked it out myself, I’m assuming when you change screens to have the enemies repsawn so you can kill them again and again?

    Didn’t realise this was cheating, more than happy for my score to be taken down 😁 my apologies

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  13. Snowflake's Avatar

    Hey steve, thanks for responding. Theres a long answer to cover technicals and corner cases. The short answer though, is if you go do something failry easily forever without progressing in the game. Basically the idea is noone wants competition to turn into just sitting in the same spot rehitting the same spawning enemy all day.

    There is a very long technical defintion to cover grey areas and corner cases that i can dig up and you link you to, but thats the short answer above

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  14. Snowflake's Avatar

    oh, and for semantics i definitely wouldnt call it "cheating". "cheating" implies you sneakily and knowing did something against the rules. This would be more of a rules violation. The C word is pretty harsh and i want to be clear that noone isaccusing you of cheating.

  15. Retro-Steve's Avatar

    I totally understand, no worries, I see how you could technically sit there forever and accumulate points.

    As I said above, happy for the score to be removed

    ThanksSnowflake thanked this post
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  16. Snowflake's Avatar

    ok i've launched the challenge

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/200608-Dispute-william-rosa-Sega-Master-System-Alex-Kidd-in-Miracle-World-PAL-Points-Player-Steve-Badcock-Score-81-800


    if you've been gone a while you might not know the challenge system works. Basically anyone can comment and vote. Obviously it would be too much power and to open to abuse if we could just vote to remove socres we dont like. All voting does is vote on whether or not this is important enough to deserve admin attetnion. so scores have two levels of protection. first the community must vote that its worth removing then admin must decide if they agree with the community and make the final call.

  17. Retro-Steve's Avatar

    Ok no problem 👍

  18. Ragequit's Avatar

    To answer your question, no submission will be accepted by me using any such tactic.

  19. D.B. Cooper's Avatar

    Just wanted to point out that this is a perfect example of why TGSAP scores that have had video evidence disappear need to be removed. The argument that just because a score passed TGSAP it must be good is not valid.

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  20. nads's Avatar

    I just re watched as I was the first person to Accept back in 2015

    And I still find this Acceptable.

    If 3 minutes of gather points constitutes excessive leeching then so be it.

    I have no problem getting the Cred punishment if this gets removed.


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