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06-21-2019 at 11:57 PM
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Welp, guess its time to set a precedent.

I feel that since such practices have finally come to light, it's time to decide whether this is a valid adjudication process or not. Thoughts? Concerns? Arguments? Counter-Arguments?

  1. RTM's Avatar

    Can't see the enclosures clearly enough and not allowing me to click on them to expand thus have no clue what the contents of these enclosures are to proceed further. Any way that you can provide an increased aspect ratio ?

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  2. Madsandy's Avatar

    For those having issues viewing the provided pictures, right clicking on the picture and selecting the "Open Image in New Tab" option will allow the user to view said picture at full size/resolution.

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  3. Garrett Holland's Avatar

    Well, I suppose that's one way to get thousands of submission points and turn those points into certificate discounts, getting a few for free instead of paying $100 cash like everyone else, no? LoL! We should probably get the feedback from certificate purchasers about what they think of this method.

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  4. Snowflake's Avatar

    i really go back and forth on how i feel about stuff like this

    i remember there was someone who purposely left a knife in an airport bathroom and called security about it. goal being to expose weakness and teach them. he got arrested. did he help or harm? he helped teach the problem but at the same time could they let him get away with it?

    i remember the secret vote club punishing blind voters by colluding to do so. i kinda agree with the collusion and feel the blind voters got what they deserved. the svc helped tg, but they technically broke the rules while the blind voters technically broke no rule

    explaining how to catch a cheater sometime is used by other cheaters to learn how to get away with it

    in other words, i respect what you're doing, and i'm not gonna give any moral lectures, its complicated. i hope this works to identify and solve a problem but its not something i could allow myself to take part in

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  5. Marcade's Avatar

    Its interesting, but I feel its really not a proper way to adjudicate, as you take out the human element of it all,. Yet, its not outlawed, so who is to stop him or anyone from adjudicating that way. I recall on the other side of the coin, @Barthax was auto submitting his archived videos using his own personal program as well.

    There will ALWAYS be "YES" blind voting across the board out there, whether we like it or not. Someone found an easier way to do it is all.

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  6. Madsandy's Avatar

    There are a couple of counter-arguments i would like to make, if for nothing more than to facilitate further discussion.

    1. @Snowflake The potential issue I see in a user using an automated adjudication systems lies not in the blind voting, as , at least in my experience, it has been demonstrated that user that blind vote will receive, at most, only a slight bias in favor of them due to the negative hits they receive for a wrong vote. It instead would lie in the actual automation of the process itself. Such a system would be able to run 24/7 365 with little to no outside intervention for what we could basically consider indefinitely. This system would have a massive advantage to those who adjudicate manually, as I have yet to experience any human that is able to perform high functioning tasks for an unlimited period of time. This leads us into the issue that, should there be a slight bias towards those that do vote blindly, the process would render the entire credibility system as obsolete, as those who have automated systems would eventually have a much higher credibility rating, and thus a stronger influence in the voting process than those who have actually participated in said voting process.

    Another item that would be rendered obsolete is one that @Garrett Holland pointed out. Those with automation would be able to obtain certificates for free, while those without would either have to wait a substantially longer time to obtain one for free or would have to instead pay out.

    Yet another issue with such a practice is that should GWR catch wind that an automated voting process is becoming commonplace between our voters, the relationship that this site has with that entity could very well become stained. If one cannot trust this sites credibility, what would stop them from finding/creating one that they could trust?

    2. @Marcade While it is not outlawed currently, sufficient action from the community could very well spark a change in the sites rules.

    I also think that while @Barthax might use an automated process to upload his videos, the amount of potential damage that such an automated process might present would be very minimal, as the threat level to the sites ability to effectively adjudicate would not be affected by such a process, thus saving it from any threats to credibility.

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  7. Madsandy's Avatar

    TL;DR for those who don't want to read essay.

    1.Automated voting would be worse than manual blind voting in terms of database integrity and site credibility.

    2. Rules can change. Automated process for record uploading does not have the same impact as automated process for record voting.

  8. EVN's Avatar

    You can't beat the humans here who can adjudicate and accept my 35 minute video within 5 minutes of uploading it :)

  9. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    SP is likely my weakest overall stat, my submission pace being so high, I really have to scramble to keep up enough voting to maintain it. I used to vote more than I do now, but anymore I'm playing or socializing and don't get around to as much as I used to.

    But that's my problem, I could spend more time voting.

    I only vaguely understand the bot thing, but going back to TG having a "user driven economy", that process is essentially stealing.

    People have different moral compasses, I know, but it amazes me when I see things done that should automatically pop up as "don't do that!"...

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  10. The Evener's Avatar

    Obviously you're not going to eliminate blind voting, but such brazen practices such as building a bot to vote should be banned. No one could read through the adjudication tutorial under "Help and Tutorials" and conclude that building a bot in any way accords with the spirit and purpose of an open, evidence-based submission process. I really appreciate the ingenuity, full props for having the skill set, but it shouldn't be going on. We all go over the speed limit, I get it, but that doesn't mean we should equate the driver who's doing 70 mph on the interstate the same as one going 120 mph. Now the caveat here is that it's my understanding that with this bot, there's no user intervention in reviewing individual submissions such as examining uploaded videos, confirming settings, etc. If I'm mistaken about how it works, I'd like to understand better how the bot is being deployed.

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    Updated 06-22-2019 at 06:04 AM by The Evener
  11. Blackflag82's Avatar

    Something I thought about in reading through the above (and Im not sure where I stand on this portion of it but am more posting it for discussion purposes):

    Many of us feel like the voting process is less than ideal. This is evidenced most heavily by the fact that when TG admin has lowered the thresholds to clear out the queue tons of stuff has gone through quicker and the few things that slip through that shouldn't get dealt with pretty quickly (squeaky wheel and all that).

    So in the case that we have blind voting and will continue to have blind voting, and we have a a formula that doesn't work as well as it should given the user base, wouldn't a blind vote bot just help to offset the inefficiency of the current system? Now part of this relies on the idea that the dispute system is actively monitored and upkept. But it seems like a vote bot isnt that different than a certain live adjudicator I can think of but without the spam...

    I guess the TLDR of the above is, is a bot a way to deal with an adjudication system in which the values are currently set too high to move many scores successfully through the process?

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  12. The Evener's Avatar

    For all of the problems with TGSAP, I don't see an upside to TG officially sanctioning or embracing use of bots in any way. TG doesn't have to start kicking down doors to see if bots are being used, but if people are going to self-identify, that's another issue.

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  13. Snowflake's Avatar

    There actually is one rule to voting — do you believe it’s valid. If a bot made the decision you neither think it’s valid nor invalid so I don’t think you can fall back on it technically not being ruled out since the rules do state you have to believe your vote

    So I do believe it’s against the rules but I also no sometimes a cop has to break the law to catch a criminal which always leads to big argument if the ends justify the means based on what the particular crime was

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  14. Rogerpoco's Avatar

    Haha, the right quote popped up in my mind, very loosely.

    Days of Thunder

    "There are some things that people are expected to automatically know".

    Vote-Bot, lol.


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  15. Marcade's Avatar

    Lets play some Family Feud...

    Top 3 answers on the board, here is the question...

    Why do TG members blind vote???

    1) They want SP's ASAP, so they can submit more themselves.

    2) They have no interest whatsoever in watching the videos. They just want SP's so they can obtain certificates for themselves.

    3) They dont care about the integrity of the scoreboard. They want CR wealth, so they can be on the top of the leaderboard, thinking they have real "credibility" and influence, when they actually dont. (The 5% penalty for spam voting wrong)

  16. ILLSeaBass's Avatar

    Simple captcha solution :P

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  17. Madsandy's Avatar

    @Blackflag82 While I agree with you in terms of the adjudication process being rather inefficient, I don't believe that an automated voter is the correct solution, even if it might bring short term benefits. I would much rather see some reformation that promotes increased site usage, as from my understanding, many of the adjudication issues could either be fixed or helped by a more active user base. Going forward, there should be more focus on new user retention, not quick fixes to empty the queue out.

  18. Blackflag82's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Madsandy

    @Blackflag82 While I agree with you in terms of the adjudication process being rather inefficient, I don't believe that an automated voter is the correct solution, even if it might bring short term benefits. I would much rather see some reformation that promotes increased site usage, as from my understanding, many of the adjudication issues could either be fixed or helped by a more active user base. Going forward, there should be more focus on new user retention, not quick fixes to empty the queue out.

    I agree with you 100%. A larger user base and I think and adjustment of the algorithm are both necessary and long term fixes.

    And I didn't mean to propose that a vote bot is a fix to the problem. If what I wrote came off that way, my apologies. I was more positing the question as a query into whether the development of something like this spawns out of the many problems the site has been having. Ie. In a well functioning environment users tend to interact with each other and the site as a whole much differently then in a poorly functioning one.

    In this case, someone who wants SP for a certificate might be looking at the situation and saying "I'd never spend money on this since I can't be assured it'll ever be delivered, so I may as well screw the system that doesn't care about me and is willing to steal my money and use a bot.

    There will always be blind voting, but right now the system rewards blind voting in a variety of ways...imo the rewards attached to publically viewable cred is problematic.

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  19. Madsandy's Avatar

    I have the same level of social awareness as a rock does, so believe me when I say that any miscommunication is more likely than not my fault lol.

    I agree with you in regards to everything you've said. Sadly, I fear that such practices will not only continue, but exponentially increase if reformation isn't introduced in an appropriate amount of time. With the apparent return of the site owner, I am hopeful that this fear will not be realized.

  20. EVN's Avatar

    Seriously though, if this becomes a thing TGSAP becomes a bit of a joke.

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