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Marcade
05-08-2019 at 10:17 PM
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PETITION: For the Pinball Platform to count in the Overall WR and ESI member leaderboard tally.

I am an avid gamer. I play everything. From Atari 2600, to classic computer games such as the Commodore 64, the NES, the Genesis, and Playstation 1-4. Once in a while, I dabble with some games on my Android. My latest #1 obsession for many years, and recently attempting to revamp the competition here within, there is no hiding it... Pinball. Pinball. Pinball. Myself and a few other active TG gamers here are currently submitting towards it, thus finally reviving a once, long and forgotten platform. Scores are being accepted once again, but this time under a full transparency system! Pinball has been around since the 1930's. It is still here today. Every pinball convention and event I attend, I always noticed an entire new generation that shows much interest and enthusiasm. Both old and new tables.

Apparently, here at TG, the "Pinball platform" and all its scores, do NOT factor in its overall "TG World Records, and Expert Skill Index" member leaderboard. This is also the ONE AND ONLY platform, that for some reason, does not (purposely) tally.

Please refer to a brief and past conversation from 3 years ago...

https://www.twingalaxies.com/content.php/4142-In-Case-You-Missed-it-STATE-OF-THE-GALAXIES-BROADCAST-2-26-16

Please refer to the latest forum comments on the scoreboard error thread, discussing it...(pages 92-93).

https://www.twingalaxies.com/admin-staff/wall/3296/scoreboard-errors-report-them-here/page/92#comments

I now ask... Why the prejudice?

*Because it has the most entries of historic and tournament scores, compared to any other platform?

*Because if we rank EVERYTHING here, (as we properly should), the top 10 in ESI will all be solely pinball player bias?

*Because the majority of the top 50 in ESI per platform, are not registered currently, and are no longer active members? Why should THEY care? (Yet, some of the top past players on the scoreboard, still DO play in real tournament circuits around the world, future up and comers as well )

For those that back my stance on this, feel free to "like/thanks" this petition in your support, along with any additional comments and opinions. Opposition opinions are always welcome as well.

Remember, you dont have to love or hate a platform, to appreciate its competition, whatever it is. (eg. Donkey Kong anyone?) ;) If you love it, you play it and participate at will. If you hate it, you ignore it, and instead play instead what you love and enjoy. In the end of it all, a game is a game. Real Pinball IS a game of REAL SKILL. Thus, we have the TG ESI system. If the EXPERT "SKILL" INDEX means just that, then ALL GAMES and PLATFORMS count. Recently, all TG WR are now officially TG WR's (Regardless of how old or new, TG created, referee or member created, or by how much volume and entries a track has, high or low current participation, past, present and future) Now... pinball (REAL PINBALL) needs its justice served once and for all!

Thank you for everyones time to read... Comment away...




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Comments
  1. datagod's Avatar
    Amen!


    Pinball!!!!!
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  2. Snowflake's Avatar

    just reiterating my conditional support -- not looking for a debate or argument since this is a peititon i'm merely clarifying the degree of my support. i'd be happy to debate it elswhere there.

    I do have an issue that since pinball imported huge amounts of scores from off site, and since esi is based on how many people you beat, pinball scores give artificially high esi. this is a bit of an apples to oranges scenario and harms esi. HOWEVER i do believe the ability can be rectified by any number of ways. For example, removing all imported scores -- not truly a fan of this, we dont a repeat of what happened to atari and nes. Ideally find a way to have esi only calcuate real tg non imported sores -- not just your tg scores, but only count tg scores you beat. also, a reverse "premium track" idea where only user created pinball tracks gets esi, but the TG tracks (sorry if its offensive, i really think they screwed up) dont get esi

    anyway, i know programming/managment will likely implement my compromise, nor will many people likely share my opinion so i know my support is largely symbolic and effectively non existant, but i felt i should point out there is a way i can support his.

  3. Snowflake's Avatar

    ah screw it, things are alrady apples to oranges anyway, i'll support you regardless. i'd still ideally like the imports to not count for esi, but in the meantime i'll still support. consolte level esi is awesome. merging platforms has all sorts of apples to oranges issues. currently esi is basically just mini games (angry birds, guitar hero...) and mame. if we dont mind mame and mini games pushing everything else out, why care if pinball pushes everything out?

    petition signed.

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  4. MyOwnWorstEnemy's Avatar

    I'll restate my opinion that ESI value erodes the further its aggregated above the game level. However, this petition is not about that .... it's about consistency of ESI aggregation at the site level. I would rather have consistency in the ESI, "a powerful, logical, holistic statistical measurement system that can analyze total achievement across all video games, platforms and categories". Pinball is a defined platform so it has a place in the ESI Calculation.

    YES - X~~~~~~~

    Signing this petition.

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  5. Pixe Sukola's Avatar

    Regardless of oaths, blood pacts and all the good things a gang does, I'm gonna have to disagree with you guys.

    I may be wrong but I don't consider Pinball machines to be videogames, at least not at the same level as consoles and arcades.

    The second reason may be a little bias and it is the ESI thing. I believe that if suddenly the top 10 or 20 is nothing but innactive pinball players that would be a huge detriment to motivation, and in my opinion Twin Galaxies comunity is already very small and this wouldn't attract more gamers, it would do the opossite.

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  6. ILLSeaBass's Avatar

    No vote here... I do suggest adding a "Pinball ESI" leader board to the Member Leaderboard page. I agree with @Pixe Sukola .. I also don't consider Pinball machines video games and vice versa.


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  7. RTM's Avatar

    If pinball is allowed in, so must the novelty title section, inclusive of those pre-1970's baseball grand slam type games, the ECMs, etc.

    Then you have to deal with those "pocket watch" games which at some point had their own category.

    You can't include one category without including the rest, otherwise that is exclusionary.

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  8. sdwyer138's Avatar

    Agreed with keeping them separated. Also the stuff in the existing "novelty" platform should probably also be separated from video games


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  9. RTM's Avatar

    Personally I feel pinball is a platform so uniquely different than video games that it has to be kept separate.

    Consider for a moment...it is the only platform which has physical parameters as part of the rules (elevation of the table legs in the back), and it is the only platform where physical conditions of the playfield...pits here, grease marks there, bumper and flipper tightness varying, etc...where each game is quite literally playing under slightly different circumstances than the last. In this respect it is a lot like bowling and pool/billiards.

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  10. Desidious's Avatar

    Sign me the **** up. If novelty games are included so can pinball. STILL and always will be a game of skill and is always found right next to our beloved videogames.


    Without pinball, where would we be anyways.


    Yes.

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  11. datagod's Avatar

    Since when did Twin Galaxies become the "we only track video games" score board?

    A game is a game. If you can play it, you can compete. If you can beat me, you get a point. It is pretty frigging simple. You don't like your ESI because somebody in a huge pinball tournament beat you? TOUGH TURDS!!!!! Do what Marc and I did. Travel the country looking for pinball machines to compete on.


    In May of 1996, Roger Sharpe proved in court that pinball is NOT a game of chance. It is a game of skill. His testimony and demonstration of making a skillshot (twice!) saved pinball!

    https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...xmv0ruhjpg.jpg 3x" data-chomp-id="18x75gxmv0ruhjpg" alt="Illustration for article titled How One Perfect Shot Saved Pinball From Being Illegal" sizes="743px" srcset="https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--OHkCBqWb--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/18x75gxmv0ruhjpg.jpg 2x, https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...xmv0ruhjpg.jpg 3x" class="fr-fic fr-dii" style="width: 815px;">

    https://gizmodo.com/how-one-perfect-shot-saved-pinball-from-being-illegal-1154267979

    Video games require skill. A lot of them have randomness. Who cares what the method of display is? How is it relevant? There are games out there that are Audio only, created for blind people. Should they be banned from ESI because they are not VIDEO GAMES??

    Yeah, this pisses me off. I thought I was doing fine after my "forced vacation", being in a better mood overall with Twin Galaxies, but then people bring up this kind of crap.

    Pinball is alive and thriving. NES, Sega Genesis, Atari 2600 are dead folks. Sure people play and compete, but they are not still being manufactured and sold. Pinball tables on the other hand are still being cranked out by Stern and others. HUGE tournaments all the time. HUGE payouts.


    Gee, I wonder what the frigging hell these books are talkign about...

    Image result for twin galaxies pinball

    Image result for twin galaxies pinball


    Oh, if you don't like the fact that a person had their score imported, and it should only count for ESI if they register, than that is elitist boolshot. A score is a score. If it is imported, it is recognized by TG and is official. If you don't like it, please dispute it.


    Image result for twin galaxies pinball


    Please note, this was NOT at the museum of retro consoles. It was the Museum of PINBALL.


    Pinball is part of Twin Galaxies. PERIOD!



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  12. Snowflake's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by RTM

    If pinball is allowed in, so must the novelty title section, inclusive of those pre-1970's baseball grand slam type games, the ECMs, etc.

    Then you have to deal with those "pocket watch" games which at some point had their own category.

    You can't include one category without including the rest, otherwise that is exclusionary.

    All those other things you mention are in fact currently included in esi. So I would think by the logic here since those other things are included then you would feel including them but not pinball is exclusionary

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  13. Desidious's Avatar

    This is literally included in the esi: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/185815


    This might ruffle some feathers but I believe that only those that are eyeballing the top esi spot are the one that wouldn't want to include. I would like to be proven wrong, however so please change my mind.

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  14. Marcade's Avatar

    Again, the purpose is for the sake of consistency. A reminder...The TG WR and ESI tally DO properly reflect on ones own page profile, therefore TG does count it...

    What is not counting is the rankings within overall membership leaderboards.

    As far as different physical parameters go with pinball. That is NOW a dead issue...

    We had several Arcade game scores get accepted under TGSAP, even without the use of a physical cabinet. Therefore, the arguement is moot.

    If it looks right, and plays right, and the rules are followed, the TGSAP community decides.

    Novelty and electro-mechanical games already do count on the overall membership leaderboard. Are they "video" games?

    What about Baby Pac-man pinball? Is that a "video" game?

    What difference does it make? A game is a game. All platforms here are equal and deserving!

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  15. Snowflake's Avatar

    RTM does make a point about verification. for video games, many of the rules are enforced by the code itself, making adjudcaition easier. for pinball inspecting the table involves more skilled adjudicators. having the pinball table at wrong tilt would be like modifying game code -- except modifying game code is a bit harder whereas getting the pinball table wrong can happen by accident

    however, despite adjudciators needing to be more vigilant since accidents are more easy to slip in, just as adjudciators need to be experts and yes check for hints of modified gameplay so must they be thorough in pinball. the fact that pinball will have more honest mistakes and therefore require more expert adjudication is no reason to remove it. i mean if something is too hard to adjudciate, then back off and let the experts do it -- and no i'm not an expert, for arguments about fine details of the board itself i'll likely back down each time.

    i'm still in favor of the petition, i still have it signed. But there are valid objections. I think perhaps pinball should be included, but at the same time those objections should also handled. for me the greater issue is affilaites, tg has the affiliate problem far greater, but its elsewhere as well. lets include pinball, but seperately deal with the affiliate problem

  16. Marcade's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Desidious

    This is literally included in the esi: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/185815


    This might ruffle some feathers but I believe that only those that are eyeballing the top esi spot are the one that wouldn't want to include. I would like to be proven wrong, however so please change my mind.


    Very good Brandon... Thus, proving my point of the actual "prejudice" towards the millions around the world, who enjoy play REAL pinball (for fun and for competition)

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  17. Snowflake's Avatar

    @marcade as for your question about baby pacman that one has deep meaning for me. its my understanding there are only 3 hybrids.

    now noone considers terminotr 2 pinball or super mario pinball or any other pinball where you briefly have a video mini game to be "hybrid" and i agree its not hyrbird its pinball. in the case of baby pacman though and i belve the others but i'm not an expert there, frankly, its more video game than pinball

    i came to tg for one reason only -- to compete on baby pacman. somewhere along the way though i became so impressed with everything, and i know a pinball submission would be difficult to get through, that i eventually gave up on baby pac and moved on to everything else

    baby pacman is absolutele a video game with a pinball component. you start in the video section. you never have to enter the pinball section. the pinball section is really just a mini game that allows you to get power ups to aid you in the video portion. heck i sucked at pinball, but baby pacman is gateway pinball, the pinball is so damn simple it made me appreciate pinball with baby steps. its a very simple pinball table. the fact its half the size is irrelevant since anything can be scaled down or scaled up, the fact the pinball portion is so simple is relevant though

    i'd be in favor of giving hybrids their own platform, or moving them to arcade. new petition maybe?
    man i wanna play some baby pacman!

  18. Marcade's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake

    @marcade as for your question about baby pacman that one has deep meaning for me. its my understanding there are only 3 hybrids.

    now noone considers terminotr 2 pinball or super mario pinball or any other pinball where you briefly have a video mini game to be "hybrid" and i agree its not hyrbird its pinball. in the case of baby pacman though and i belve the others but i'm not an expert there, frankly, its more video game than pinball

    i came to tg for one reason only -- to compete on baby pacman. somewhere along the way though i became so impressed with everything, and i know a pinball submission would be difficult to get through, that i eventually gave up on baby pac and moved on to everything else

    baby pacman is absolutele a video game with a pinball component. you start in the video section. you never have to enter the pinball section. the pinball section is really just a mini game that allows you to get power ups to aid you in the video portion. heck i sucked at pinball, but baby pacman is gateway pinball, the pinball is so damn simple it made me appreciate pinball with baby steps. its a very simple pinball table. the fact its half the size is irrelevant since anything can be scaled down or scaled up, the fact the pinball portion is so simple is relevant though

    i'd be in favor of giving hybrids their own platform, or moving them to arcade. new petition maybe?
    man i wanna play some baby pacman!


    Go ahead and play it and have fun! (Maybe submit for it under Pinball)

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/baby-pac-man/pinball


    Dont forget to "PLUG IT IN".... Afterall, Pinball IS a "Electronic gaming platform".

    Does not necessarily have to be classified as "video game" or a hybrid, eh?

    Updated 05-09-2019 at 12:07 PM by Marcade
  19. datagod's Avatar

    @Jace Hall will you please comment on the Pinball issue?

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  20. Snowflake's Avatar

    another compromise that might help

    for ESI, as well as just navigating platforms, a few times i've pointed that we need more granulaitry than just "everything, platform, game"

    i think a hierarch would solve a lot of problems. What if between "overall esi" which as everyting, and individual platforms, there was more merging of like to like? Thinks like atari, intellivision could be in a middle category. android and ios could also be combined together under another middle category.


    there is likely a solution that solves everyting, and improves a few other things in the process.

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