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Max
01-13-2020 at 08:58 AM
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Puyo Puyo Tetris

This post is In reference to Sean Christo's performance on Puyo Puyo Tetris for the Nintendo Switch. https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/212663-Nintendo-Switch-Puyo-Puyo-Tetris-Marathon(Endless-Mode)-21-343-536-Sean-Christo/page5

This submission and the topic of pausing is being discussed at some length on a few different threads. These discussions will likely continue for some time. TG appears to acknowledge that new global rule language is required and they are working towards new language (along with the community).

It hit me today that without getting TG admin involved @SincerelyFranny , this specific submission won't ever resolve. The purpose of this post is solely to discuss if creating a new track that allows pausing should occur, and if everyone agrees, having the existing submission that has already passed adjudication by Alvin Garcia that includes pausing, be moved to this newly created track.

Why am I posting this?

1. Sean's existing submission is unlikely to move out of adjudication

2. Sean posted his submission with the best intent and with his understanding of what the very vague TG rules were based on his research. While numerous pauses took place in this submission, he had no intention of hiding his pausing to gain some sort of advantage and the video clearly shows this.

3. There is an existing submission on this track that has passed adjudication by Alvin Garcia that employs pausing.

What needs to occur, assuming everyone agrees:

1. Create a new track that specifically contains pausing language (anyone can do this)

2. Move Alvin Garcia's score to this new track (TG admin involvement required)

3. Request that Sean resubmit his existing performance to this new track

It should be noted that the creation of a new track or moving Alvin's existing submission to this new track has absolutely no impact on global rules, or the discussion of what global rules should be. Global rules discussions may continue until resolved on other threads.

This seems like a win for everyone involved.







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Comments
  1. Ninglendo's Avatar

    My favorite part is that JJT ( a person that is supposed to be silenced) started that mess. Even funnier yet he voted yes on the previous submission that had pauses but now it's not ok to do so. As always screenshots were spammed on the adjudication thread.

    A week or two ago I broke the TG record (not the actual WR) on the 100% category for Super Metroid. I will not be submitting the run here even though I followed the TG rules. Why? Because I don't want the headache of going through the adjudication process. I already know how it will go. I will submit, JJT will spam the crap outta the thread, I will be asked to show my console, a picture of the game, then it will be a debate if killing a boss too fast is a glitch even though its not. The thread will go on for 10 pages of people debating pointless things. It just isn't worth it to go through all of that.

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  2. Snowflake's Avatar

    i wanna apologize ahead of time for being verbose but i've tried a few times here to be succinct, and those few times i tried it immediately backfired with people twisting my words and getting even more offended than from my long comments so with that said....


    I'm fine with the proposal you lay out and wont complain at all if its implemented, however I do see some potential unintended consquences that i think should be at least considered


    I have huge sympathy for sean, he did the research, took the time, watched the other performance (more than i can say for the adjudicators that approved it) and then got a very bad welcome to tg. This is a huge problem that isnt even slightly sean's fault. Alvin i have less symathy for -- but dont twist my words, no criticism either. for alvin there was a lack of documentation and he made a best guess, oh well, he got the guess wrong, it happens, for sean he did the reserach and was given false information. so this isnt a criticism of alvin, its just a defense of sean.

    heres the problem. you're talking about creating a track for free cause tg members screwed up with blind voting (and yes it was blind since another submission with the same issue was rejected by at least one of the same people). to lay out my issues with that

    potential issues/unintended consequences
    1. can anyone just get a free track by breaking rules on an old track, wait for blind voters to approve it, then later get a split? why are we paying for tracks if all we have to do is submit a performance with the rules we want to get that track for free

    2. the entire reason to move the score is because the score doesnt belongthere. that means the adjudicators got it wrong and their cred should be hit. why do i care about their cred

    2a. blind voters have more voting power, without the occasional cred hit they can force through scores that shouldnt go through and in fact is what led to this problem in the first place. if the blind voters had more cred hits this would've never been a problem, and the multitude of posts on this show just how large a problem has been created.

    2b. simialir to above, why would blind voters ever care for accuracy if they know their mistakes can just be fixed with a move of tracks and no cred hit

    3. this is a special case, but it isnt. pauses come up alot. if we split this track for free, how many other tracks will cite this as a precedent, and have the same thing happen with blind voters just relying on a split to save them later


    so while i agree this is a special case (but not that special see point 3) i see some minor issues. Again, i wont argue much or complain loudly as i get this one is complicated. But in my opinion the best solution is to pretty much do as you describe, but with one additoinal step. dont simply move the old score, rather, dispute it, reject it, then readd it to the new track and penalize the blind voters credibiilty accordingly. yes yes, credibilty is more a matter of principle and concern over the future than it is about solving this specific issue, but we have to care about the big picture too and what other problems can be created. solving an issue in isolation without caring about the overall affect on other issues well ultimately create more issues than solved.


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    Updated 01-13-2020 at 09:34 AM by Snowflake
  3. GibGirl's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninglendo

    My favorite part is that JJT ( a person that is supposed to be silenced) started that mess. Even funnier yet he voted yes on the previous submission that had pauses but now it's not ok to do so. As always screenshots were spammed on the adjudication thread.

    A week or two ago I broke the TG record (not the actual WR) on the 100% category for Super Metroid. I will not be submitting the run here even though I followed the TG rules. Why? Because I don't want the headache of going through the adjudication process. I already know how it will go. I will submit, JJT will spam the crap outta the thread, I will be asked to show my console, a picture of the game, then it will be a debate if killing a boss too fast is a glitch even though its not. The thread will go on for 10 pages of people debating pointless things. It just isn't worth it to go through all of that.


    The sooner we just stop tracking speedruns here on TG, the better in my opinion. There's a much better place for that.

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  4. Ninglendo's Avatar

    TG could track speedruns and could be great at it (especially from a preservation side) if people got their heads outta their arses and stop pretending we are living in the pre-SDA days.

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  5. thegamer1185's Avatar

    I will help fund the track. It is a good idea to just create a track and move the scores over for one reason only. I want new people to stay....and I guess a second reason is there is nothing in the rules and policies about pausing. There just isn't. No new member would know that, and why would they think to ask? Speaking of which, when I first showed up I was using turbo....because the rules say nothing about it anywhere.

    So I went through exactly what Sean is going through. I agree moving the tracks over is a fair compensation to this, and we correct these "hidden rules" that are known only if you have been around long enough to learn them.

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  6. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninglendo

    TG could track speedruns and could be great at it (especially from a preservation side) if people got their heads outta their arses and stop pretending we are living in the pre-SDA days.


    Which part particularly?

    I'm all for tracking everything & its mother but the main issue I have experienced with speed runs is people expecting to get accurate millisecond measurements. The technology simply isn't here (haven't research it but TG's video play back is probably capped at 30FPS - needs to be 100FPS to get millisecond accuracy) & the vast majority of evidence packages won't be millisecond accurate either for the same reason. Add on top of that the whole TGSAP need to agree on an achievement (historically a PITA for TGSAP) at frame-accurate timing - difficult enough with an accuracy of seconds, let alone sub-second accuracy.

  7. Max's Avatar

    Free tracks? I'm not sure I suggested that anywhere. The cost of a new track isn't all that relevant. For the suggestion to work, a new track is required. Who picks up the cost doesn't matter.

    As far as penalizing the voters on Alvin's submission, that's fine, but it will muddy everything up and take forever to resolve.

    Such a dispute has to acknowledge that no posted rule was broken. Voters will be penalized on a rule that isn't adequately defined by TG.

    This issue wasn't caused by a single person, rather it was caused by a lack of global rule clarity and all of the voters on Alvin's submission. Alvin and Sean did what they thought was correct. Did all the voters on Alvin's sub know that pausing wasn't allowed? Who knows? And how would they know that's a rule when it isn't defined? While it's easy to try and lay all this on one person, the lack of global rule clarity is the fundamental issue.

    Yes, the suggestion gives a free pass to the adjudicators on Alvin's sub. The suggestion also quickly resolves the situation without mess.


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  8. Snowflake's Avatar

    It is a very fair point about the lack of documentation that has repeatedly been brought up so i think many of us agree with that. Ok, i suppose there really is no fear of setting bad precedents as long as the rules are tidied up. to that end, i'd say having admin fix the rules is a higher priority than moving the track or anything else. once the rules are fixed my concerns become moot, and well, fixing the rules are just plain important for obvoius reasons as well

  9. Ninglendo's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax



    Which part particularly?

    I'm all for tracking everything & its mother but the main issue I have experienced with speed runs is people expecting to get accurate millisecond measurements. The technology simply isn't here (haven't research it but TG's video play back is probably capped at 30FPS - needs to be 100FPS to get millisecond accuracy) & the vast majority of evidence packages won't be millisecond accurate either for the same reason.

    The technology exists to get accurate measurements. Again, we don't live in the early 2000s anymore. There is ways to count each frame in a run they are called "frame counters" which I used on one of my submissions here with the help of @timmell .

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/168449-nintendo-entertainment-system-a-boy-amp-his-blob-trouble-on-blobonia-ntsc-fastest-completion-04-45-0-glen-updike

    It's how people track the Super Mario Bros. leaderboards over at speedrun where people are literally competing with frames. So again if TG would quit being primitive speedruns could actually be tracked properly if people were willing to put in the extra effort with subs.
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  10. timmell's Avatar

    Once again it goes back to how serious is TG going to be when it comes to recording and supporting a scoreboard for very competitive people/ games. Data collection and creating boundires is the most important thing for TG to successful. But that is always on the back burner. Sroka 2020.

  11. EVN's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by timmell

    Once again it goes back to how serious is TG going to be when it comes to recording and supporting a scoreboard for very competitive people/ games. Data collection and creating boundires is the most important thing for TG to successful. But that is always on the back burner. Sroka 2020.


    Let's be real here, there's not even accurate and up to date guidelines for basic submission standards let alone speedruns. I thought the wiki would fix that but leaving it to the users to build leaves us no better off than arguing on the wall over things. TG needs actual technical people with the power to set up the rules or it's dead in the water. I've only been here a few years and seeing the same arguments go around in circles over and over again without intervention form anyone in management gives me no hope that it's ever going to be fixed.

    The way we set precedents here is farcical, basically fight over it in an adjudication thread in and around a mess made by JJT and hope for the best.

  12. SallowDay's Avatar

    Where will that discussion regarding the global rules take place? Forgive me, I'm a newbie.

  13. SallowDay's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Max

    Free tracks? I'm not sure I suggested that anywhere. The cost of a new track isn't all that relevant. For the suggestion to work, a new track is required. Who picks up the cost doesn't matter.

    As far as penalizing the voters on Alvin's submission, that's fine, but it will muddy everything up and take forever to resolve.

    Such a dispute has to acknowledge that no posted rule was broken. Voters will be penalized on a rule that isn't adequately defined by TG.

    This issue wasn't caused by a single person, rather it was caused by a lack of global rule clarity and all of the voters on Alvin's submission. Alvin and Sean did what they thought was correct. Did all the voters on Alvin's sub know that pausing wasn't allowed? Who knows? And how would they know that's a rule when it isn't defined? While it's easy to try and lay all this on one person, the lack of global rule clarity is the fundamental issue.

    Yes, the suggestion gives a free pass to the adjudicators on Alvin's sub. The suggestion also quickly resolves the situation without mess.



    I largely agree with this sentiment. It's true that adjudicators who voted accept on Alvin's record did no wrong because no posted rule was broken. But those that voted accept on Alvin's record and reject/abstain on mine really have no logical ground to stand on.

    Either they somehow missed Alvin's pausing (which I don't understand because I didn't) or didn't actually watch his record. Either way, their integrity as adjudicators has certainly been thrust into question, and I do hope that's a question that gets resolved.


    In a post on his feed JJT said he made a mistake but did not elaborate, by the way.

  14. Max's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by SallowDay



    I largely agree with this sentiment. It's true that adjudicators who voted accept on Alvin's record did no wrong because no posted rule was broken. But those that voted accept on Alvin's record and reject/abstain on mine really have no logical ground to stand on.

    Either they somehow missed Alvin's pausing (which I don't understand because I didn't) or didn't actually watch his record. Either way, their integrity as adjudicators has certainly been thrust into question, and I do hope that's a question that gets resolved.


    In a post on his feed JJT said he made a mistake but did not elaborate, by the way.

    The normal penalty for incorrect voting is the voter is penalized with a CR hit (5% of their CR balance). However, this only occurs when an incorrect vote is made (more likely to occur if one blind votes). This penalty applies to any voter who gets any vote wrong on any resolved submission.

    I'll be blunt. Absolutely everyone is aware that JJT didn't watch Alvin's video in full. There is no mechanism in place to resolve this particular issue where a voter exposes themselves as a blind voter other than TG admin to step in and make a one off call. I've never seen TG do this, though this situation has never presented itself in such a matter of fact manner before.

    As far as I can tell, Jace's involvement on this wall initiates TG's conclusion to work towards a more defined set of global rules. https://www.twingalaxies.com/thegamer1185/wall/7693/pausing-is-it-allowed

    To give you a fair heads up, changes or adjustments at TG can often take a very long time.

    I've tagged @SincerelyFranny on this wall (initial post and now again on this post). Franny is one of the TG admin folks. It is entirely up to TG to go along with the suggestion I made on the OP, or conclude some other variant towards resolution with your submission (and Alvin's).

    Lastly, if you wish, you can make a track and define the rules any way you wish (superseding any global rules, specifically pausing). You may want to consider doing so and resubmit. You can do this at any time. I'm quite certain the community will readily fund this for you as we know you don't have the submission points required to do so as of yet.

    Welcome to TG. :D

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  15. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninglendo



    The technology exists to get accurate measurements. Again, we don't live in the early 2000s anymore. There is ways to count each frame in a run they are called "frame counters" which I used on one of my submissions here with the help of @timmell .

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/168449-nintendo-entertainment-system-a-boy-amp-his-blob-trouble-on-blobonia-ntsc-fastest-completion-04-45-0-glen-updike

    It's how people track the Super Mario Bros. leaderboards over at speedrun where people are literally competing with frames. So again if TG would quit being primitive speedruns could actually be tracked properly if people were willing to put in the extra effort with subs.


    So here's the divide as I see it:

    - current TG can track that frame-counting possibility: it just isn't created as a track with rules yet (or exists & is blocked in the --Speedruns category - don't know, haven't checked). The only blockage here is the willingness to create a "better" set of rules on a new track.

    - if it's not specified in the rules but submitters expect it to get used, the technology cannot be applied to all in equal measure across all submissions. Unfair advantage is given to one quarter or another (precision vs. rounding and will likely not be all advantage in one direction). It's similar to a metres vs. yards argument for the same track: someone will loose out in the calculations.

    - that technology isn't accurate to a centisecond (let alone millisecond) as your footage clearly proves (cycle back to my comment that the technology doesn't exist for millisecond accuracy). All SD platforms are not accurate to centisecond: it's inherent in the technology.

    Updated 01-14-2020 at 01:39 AM by Barthax
  16. Ninglendo's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax

    - that technology isn't accurate to a centisecond (let alone millisecond) as your footage clearly proves (cycle back to my comment that the technology doesn't exist for millisecond accuracy). All SD platforms are not accurate to centisecond: it's inherent in the technology.

    That's not true at all. I used a very simple way after the run was done. I could of been even more accurate if I had known that timing runs was a joke here. There is countless programs that will count the frames of each recording. For example Arcus uses this one for his Ninja Gaiden runs.

    https://imgur.com/a/OSZQPzG

    The speedrun community has been counting frames for years and has become a standard practice. If you would like to see it done just watch any speedrunner get a PB on a highly competitive game. They will either use a program that frame counts during the recording or they will use a program after the run is done. Like I said before it is common practice and sometimes mandatory depending on the game and what place the run comes in. You will never hear a top SMB player just go "Well just round the time up". That's actually pretty laughable. Look at the leaderboard over there. 182 different runs that tracked milliseconds/frames.

    https://www.speedrun.com/smb1

    So the notion that the technology doesn't exist or isn't accurate is not true at all. Imagine if someone like SomeWes or Kosmic wanted to submit their SMB run here and was told to round the time up. You think they would come back here to submit again? Probably not.

  17. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninglendo



    That's not true at all.

    What I said is perfectly accurate. What you're explaining is not the same thing as I'm explaining - we are outlining entirely different things. I'm referring to accuracy of timing (traditional TG measurement, if only to the whole second) whereas you are referring to counting frames (as you mention, common practice at other sites). Both are good measurements when compared against multiple attempts measured in the same way. In the presence of dropped frames both frame counting and direct capture are inaccurate but timing of non-direct feed is more reliable (but still not accurate to centisecond level unless the camera is capturing at 100 FPS or better - milliseconds will take 1000 FPS capture). External high speed camera wins when measuring time.

    Updated 01-14-2020 at 11:53 AM by Barthax
  18. Ninglendo's Avatar

    The only thing that matters in speedruns is the frames hence the term "Save the frames".

  19. Snowflake's Avatar

    ok maybe i'm over my head, but although timing in real life for a sprint is continuous and analog, timing for games is digital. once you're accurate enough to get amount of frames, time then millisond or nanosecond even become the same level of precision as both are more precise than needed right? once you have the frames you have perfect precision.

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  20. Pearl2hu's Avatar

    does barthax even speedrun its like shmups all over again

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