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Ninglendo
12-13-2020 at 01:15 PM
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The Wayback Machine Is a beautiful thing,

Scores from a former ref that were supposedly done and verified decades earlier by TG weren't added to the site til way later on when they became a ref? Oooook.

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  1. Ninglendo's Avatar

    I'm starting to notice a pattern here...






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  2. voodoo_chilly's Avatar

    lol...look at my 1,818 score. at least i was honest. Wow...great research. KEEP IT UP. Time for Karma is NOW.

  3. timmell's Avatar

    51,489 in 1999 and

    999,999 in 1985? Looks like a dominon ballot reader over here.

  4. voodoo_chilly's Avatar

    i just asked him a couple questions in another thread and my posts were blocked for "Borderline Harrassment" How are these borderline harrassment?



    He even admits self-entering his own scores in his interview with Rudy Ferretti on Youtube starting at 59:30 in this video:

    and discusses documents he sent Rudy which included stock percentages of those who signed "hush money"...why is TG blocking my questions???

    at 1:12:30 "I might have shared that with you"

  5. TWIN GALAXIES's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_chilly

    i just asked him a couple questions in another thread and my posts were blocked for "Borderline Harrassment" How are these borderline harrassment?



    He even admits self-entering his own scores in his interview with Rudy Ferretti on Youtube starting at 59:30 in this video:

    and discusses documents he sent Rudy which included stock percentages of those who signed "hush money"...why is TG blocking my questions???

    at 1:12:30 "I might have shared that with you"

    In our review, you asked several questions of a specific TG Member which were voluntarily replied to and after response was supplied a specific request was made by that TG Member to cease your continued questioning, which you then did not observe.

    TG Members are under no obligation to answer any other TG Member's questions and any ongoing conversation between members should remain consensual.

    Continuing to ask members questions after they have asked for cessation moves into harassment territory.

    Generally speaking, as a forward-going environment, Twin Galaxies and its community members must keep its focus on being a place where all can feel safe and the collective recognition of achievement and celebration of accomplishment can flourish. We must all work to minimize Twin Galaxies as being a potential environment of accusation or endless consternation. That is not how it is here any longer.

    Lastly, for reference - ESI was conceived of and created after 2014. There is nothing in the past that was done by anyone in relation to deliberately accomplishing anything related to ESI, as it simply did not exist as a concept.

    It is important for everyone to keep in mind that new Twin Galaxies will not allow a repeat of any of its dead toxic past or culture to regenerate. Those days, processes, and specific culture of elitism and exclusion are over. At Twin Galaxies today, all activity of playing video games and the various achievements therein, are important and meaningful. That includes ALL of speedrunning and everything else.

    If any TG Member wants to discuss a particular issue they have with any other TG Member, please feel free to PM @Jace Hall with the issue and he will be able to examine the matter.

    Twin Galaxies is going to continue to remain highly moderated. We thank you for your understanding and support.




    Updated 12-13-2020 at 08:51 PM by TWIN GALAXIES
  6. lexmark's Avatar

    For the record. Robert(RTM) admitted years before that Rudy interview that he "self entered" MAME scores (hundreds in fact) He entered them for the reasons that he said (something about the data base) This was NEVER a secret.


    Just saying.


    john


    .

  7. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by lexmark

    For the record. Robert(RTM) admitted years before that Rudy interview that he "self entered" MAME scores (hundreds in fact) He entered them for the reasons that he said (something about the data base) This was NEVER a secret.


    Just saying.


    john


    .

    Yes, the scoreboard at the time was unable to display any track variations without scores. So Robert populated MAME tracks with scores just so people could see track. Many of RTM's INPs are still a part of the TG INP Archive (see TG's wall post).

  8. Barthax's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninglendo

    I'm starting to notice a pattern here...







    The early 2000s scoreboard didn't display most scores anyway. :P

  9. Scott S.'s Avatar

    Lot of questionable score transfers from Snipercade to TG. For example, look at the VCS scores for Enduro. The Wayback snapshot of Snipercade from February 2001 (https://web.archive.org/web/20010221152244/www.snipercade.com/atari/tg_2600.htm) lists 8 scores:

    7 of those scores are in TG's database, and all are dated 7-30-2003, except Mruczek's, which is dated 11-23-2003.

    And with those scores, all of them are incorrect, except for Mruczek's. In fact, everyone else's scores were divided by 10! I guess if rounding down scores isn't good enough, dividing down scores is... and guess who the chief ref at TG was in 2003...

    There's 3 more scores on TG also dated 7-30-2003 - Stephen Riesenberger (153.9), Alan Hewston (42.5),and Brien King (23.2). I suspect these were divided by 10 as well. I can play the game and do nothing but hold the fire button down and score 70 points.

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    Updated 12-14-2020 at 04:38 AM by Scott S.
  10. Scott S.'s Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES
    TG Members are under no obligation to answer any other TG Member's questions and any ongoing conversation between members should remain consensual.

    They are when there's a question regarding the validity of something, or someone.


    It is important for everyone to keep in mind that new Twin Galaxies will not allow a repeat of any of its dead toxic past or culture to regenerate.

    TG continues to support those who helped create that past toxic culture. It's time for TG to take a critical look at those individuals.

    If any TG Member wants to discuss a particular issue they have with any other TG Member, please feel free to PM @Jace Hall with the issue and he will be able to examine the matter.

    With all due respect, such conversations are best held in public view. As a new 'old' member of TG, I can tell you first-hand trying to resolve such issues privately for years never led to any solutions. Instead, it led to them being swept aside and ignored in the hopes they would be forgotten. Transparency is the way forward.

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  11. TWIN GALAXIES's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott S.

    They are when there's a question regarding the validity of something, or someone.

    If there is a specific claim or question about the validity of a score, a dispute claim for that score can be filed and the definitively objective evidence supporting that claim can be presented for review.

    A TG Member broadly questioning the "validity of another TG Member" as opposed to a specific score that is stored in the database as you suggest can quickly become a form of harassment and TG Members are under no obligation to answer any other TG Member's questions of that nature. Any ongoing conversation between members should remain consensual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott S.

    TG continues to support those who helped create that past toxic culture. It's time for TG to take a critical look at those individuals.

    TG is not here for TG Members to "take a critical look at other TG Members." That is specifically a toxic exercise and works to generate a toxic environment. It is also part of the kind of conduct that took place at TG in the past and drove many people away from participating at TG. This policy has nothing to do with "supporting those who helped create that past toxic culture" and has everything to do with making absolutely sure that the past toxic culture does not and can not return.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott S.

    With all due respect, such conversations are best held in public view. As a new 'old' member of TG, I can tell you first-hand trying to resolve such issues privately for years never led to any solutions. Instead, it led to them being swept aside and ignored in the hopes they would be forgotten. Transparency is the way forward.

    We have looked at the entire discourse on the matter. There is no specific "issue" or goal stated being resolved or even being proposed to be resolved in regard to the TG Member who asked to be left alone. What we do see is an accusatory environment starting to be re-created yet again at TG and that will not be happening. TG will be a safe space for all members to focus on gaming achievement and discussion. Members will conduct themselves appropriately and reasonably toward other members if they want to maintain their membership.

    If anyone has an issue with a specific score in the database, they are more than welcome to file a dispute claim and provide whatever definitive and objective evidence needed to support that claim. TG will certainly review it.

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  12. TWIN GALAXIES's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott S.

    Lot of questionable score transfers from Snipercade to TG. For example, look at the VCS scores for Enduro. The Wayback snapshot of Snipercade from February 2001 (https://web.archive.org/web/20010221152244/www.snipercade.com/atari/tg_2600.htm) lists 8 scores:

    7 of those scores are in TG's database, and all are dated 7-30-2003, except Mruczek's, which is dated 11-23-2003.

    And with those scores, all of them are incorrect, except for Mruczek's. In fact, everyone else's scores were divided by 10! I guess if rounding down scores isn't good enough, dividing down scores is... and guess who the chief ref at TG was in 2003...

    There's 3 more scores on TG also dated 7-30-2003 - Stephen Riesenberger (153.9), Alan Hewston (42.5),and Brien King (23.2). I suspect these were divided by 10 as well. I can play the game and do nothing but hold the fire button down and score 70 points.

    We will look at the database and see if the decimal is being misplaced accidentally during database conversion or if it is how we received this track data originally.

    From what you present, it seems to be a database error but we will see.

    Thank you.

    In the future it would be helpful if you placed finds like this in the scoreboard errors thread for review.

  13. Ninglendo's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax



    The early 2000s scoreboard didn't display most scores anyway. :P

    The issue I have is the score done in the 90s is only 5% of the score that is claimed to be done in 1985. Per old TG policy if that score was challenged back in the day and the person could only come up with 5% of the claimed score the score would of been tossed out.
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  14. Ninglendo's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES


    If there is a specific claim or question about the validity of a score, a dispute claim for that score can be filed and the definitively objective evidence supporting that claim can be presented for review.

    A TG Member broadly questioning the "validity of another TG Member" as opposed to a specific score that is stored in the database as you suggest can quickly become a form of harassment and TG Members are under no obligation to answer any other TG Member's questions of that nature. Any ongoing conversation between members should remain consensual.


    TG is not here for TG Members to "take a critical look at other TG Members." That is specifically a toxic exercise and works to generate a toxic environment. It is also part of the kind of conduct that took place at TG in the past and drove many people away from participating at TG. This policy has nothing to do with "supporting those who helped create that past toxic culture" and has everything to do with making absolutely sure that the past toxic culture does not and can not return.


    We have looked at the entire discourse on the matter. There is no specific "issue" or goal stated being resolved or even being proposed to be resolved in regard to the TG Member who asked to be left alone. What we do see is an accusatory environment starting to be re-created yet again at TG and that will not be happening. TG will be a safe space for all members to focus on gaming achievement and discussion. Members will conduct themselves appropriately and reasonably toward other members if they want to maintain their membership.

    If anyone has an issue with a specific score in the database, they are more than welcome to file a dispute claim and provide whatever definitive and objective evidence needed to support that claim. TG will certainly review it.

    And this is exactly the type of stuff that happened back in the day. I can't speak for everyone but I can speak for myself. Lots of scores and players were being questioned for an example Todd Rogers. Everyone that questioned these scores were silenced. Anybody that gave any sort of criticism were scrutinized and labeled "toxic". That type of stuff drove people away that wanted an accurate scoreboard not the other way around. The people being protected had no reason to leave. It's the reason why I chose not to submit til TGSAP became a thing. Well I did try to submit before TGSAP but magically all 12 of my VHS tapes of various scores were "lost in the mail". This happened on separate occasions and when I would return to the site months later I would find that some of the games I submitted to had updated rules that went against my strategies i.e. the bump back rule in Lifeforce.

    I would bring these issues up in private and I was either ignored or told not to worry about it. When I brought these issues up in public I was labeled "toxic". This right here in my eyes is no different than what happened in the past with Rodrigo, Todd, Billy, etc. You question these people and their scores and you are either silenced or labeled a toxic person. There is valid concerns with some of these stuff I have been finding while digging up TG's past. Particularly scores that were apparently done in the 80s but added to the scoreboard once people had power. Does this sound familiar? Sounds a lot like the Dragster score. On top of all of that the person admitted more than once to self entering score just like Todd did.

    I understand there is a way to dispute specific scores but when there is more than one score that is sketchy I find it best to have all available data on one thread before any disputes are started. That way if there is a mistake that mistake wont be attached to the score. This has been done in the past on wall threads with zero concern. I don't wanna claim there is special treatment going on now but it certainly feels that way.
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  15. Ninglendo's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES


    We will look at the database and see if the decimal is being misplaced accidentally during database conversion or if it is how we received this track data originally.

    From what you present, it seems to be a database error but we will see.

    Thank you.

    In the future it would be helpful if you placed finds like this in the scoreboard errors thread for review.

    Check out this "database error".

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/chopper-command/atari-2600-vcs/ntsc-game-1-difficulty-b-points/?fbclid=IwAR2UeqAB7KPVP31cAgUEvem94cLyYEokja4ELJbX 3MbhaSpOugWd-7HM7ug


    All the other maxouts are listed chronologically except for the person on top. Funny how all these "database errors" only benefit one person and one person only.
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  16. TWIN GALAXIES's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninglendo



    Check out this "database error".

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/chopper-command/atari-2600-vcs/ntsc-game-1-difficulty-b-points/?fbclid=IwAR2UeqAB7KPVP31cAgUEvem94cLyYEokja4ELJbX 3MbhaSpOugWd-7HM7ug


    All the other maxouts are listed chronologically except for the person on top. Funny how all these "database errors" only benefit one person and one person only.

    This is a false statement. These scores are not all listed chronologically, For some reason this track (and there are probably others) is just simply not listed chronologically.

    You will see that numerous ranks such as 20, 23, 24, 27, etc. are completely out of order as well.

    It is fine to request that the track order be corrected, but it is improper and may show bias to characterize this condition to imply there was some planned and calculated benefit to the order by someone. Additionally, there are likely many tracks with this condition that do not contain the person you are referring to.

    TG is being unbiased in its evaluation of these matters as it relates to any individual member. Please keep in mind that current ownership did not have anything to do with the historic process and will not let the negative legacy continue.



  17. Ninglendo's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES


    This is a false statement. These scores are not all listed chronologically, For some reason this track (and there are probably others) is just simply not listed chronologically.

    You will see that numerous ranks such as 20, 23, 24, 27, etc. are completely out of order as well.

    It is fine to request that the track order be corrected, but it is improper and may show bias to characterize this condition to imply there was some planned and calculated benefit to the order by someone. Additionally, there are likely many tracks with this condition that do not contain the person you are referring to.

    TG is being unbiased in its evaluation of these matters as it relates to any individual member. Please keep in mind that current ownership did not have anything to do with the historic process and will not let the negative legacy continue.




    Ranks 20, 23, 24, and 27 aren't maxouts though.... Maxouts on this site are always in chronological order. Please if you know about another leaderboard that has maxouts that aren't in chronological order please share.
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  18. TWIN GALAXIES's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninglendo

    And this is exactly the type of stuff that happened back in the day. I can't speak for everyone but I can speak for myself. Lots of scores and players were being questioned for an example Todd Rogers. Everyone that questioned these scores were silenced. Anybody that gave any sort of criticism were scrutinized and labeled "toxic". That type of stuff drove people away that wanted an accurate scoreboard not the other way around. The people being protected had no reason to leave. It's the reason why I chose not to submit til TGSAP became a thing. Well I did try to submit before TGSAP but magically all 12 of my VHS tapes of various scores were "lost in the mail". This happened on separate occasions and when I would return to the site months later I would find that some of the games I submitted to had updated rules that went against my strategies i.e. the bump back rule in Lifeforce.

    I would bring these issues up in private and I was either ignored or told not to worry about it. When I brought these issues up in public I was labeled "toxic". This right here in my eyes is no different than what happened in the past with Rodrigo, Todd, Billy, etc. You question these people and their scores and you are either silenced or labeled a toxic person. There is valid concerns with some of these stuff I have been finding while digging up TG's past. Particularly scores that were apparently done in the 80s but added to the scoreboard once people had power. Does this sound familiar? Sounds a lot like the Dragster score. On top of all of that the person admitted more than once to self entering score just like Todd did.

    I understand there is a way to dispute specific scores but when there is more than one score that is sketchy I find it best to have all available data on one thread before any disputes are started. That way if there is a mistake that mistake wont be attached to the score. This has been done in the past on wall threads with zero concern. I don't wanna claim there is special treatment going on now but it certainly feels that way.

    We cannot speak to the past behavior of previous TG ownership. As some may be aware we are dealing with that in our own way legally.

    In the meanwhile to be clear, a TG member was being questioned by other TG members. That TG member answered as many questions as they felt comfortable with, and was under no obligation to answer anything. After answering some questions, that TG member requested to be left alone. That request should have been the end of questions to that TG member, however it was not. This is when questioning can become a form of harassment, and TG is not a place for such activity. The additional direct questions were removed and the conversation was closed.

    This is the same treatment that any verified TG member receives.

    Nothing special about it.

  19. TWIN GALAXIES's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninglendo



    Ranks 20, 23, 24, and 27 aren't maxouts though.... Maxouts on this site are always in chronological order. Please if you know about another leaderboard that has maxouts that aren't in chronological order please share.

    We are not personally aware of others and can only fix as they are found. (We weren't even aware of this one until pointed out.) This is not the first time we have seen this. Prior to a certain Pac-Man player's score removal, this issue was pointed out by that player as his name not showing up as the first name in the list of those maxouts.

    The date sort order for maxouts seems to not be automatically considered when listed so a database service has to run through all the scores in the database to re-sort them with that consideration. Services like that can many times fail to complete and need to be restarted (you've probably seen this happen with ESI calculations a few times) and in the case of maxouts, knowing which scoreboards to check for completion of the service is challenging to do.

    @admin staff can discuss in more detail, but we've notified them of this particular scoreboard.

    Any more you can find we will fix. People finding this stuff is appreciated and helps the scoreboard be more accurate.


  20. Ninglendo's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES


    We are not personally aware of others and can only fix as they are found. (We weren't even aware of this one until pointed out.) This is not the first time we have seen this. Prior to a certain Pac-Man player's score removal, this issue was pointed out by that player as his name not showing up as the first name in the list of those maxouts.

    The date sort order for maxouts seems to not be automatically considered when listed so a database service has to run through all the scores in the database to re-sort them with that consideration. Services like that can many times fail to complete and need to be restarted (you've probably seen this happen with ESI calculations a few times) and in the case of maxouts, knowing which scoreboards to check for completion of the service is challenging to do.

    @admin staff can discuss in more detail, but we've notified them of this particular scoreboard.

    Any more you can find we will fix. People finding this stuff is appreciated and helps the scoreboard be more accurate.


    Completely different situation and bug. This leaderboard has been this way years before TGSAP and the new site was formed. Back then bugs like the Pac-Man bug and the bug that happened with Todd's scores being removed didn't exist. So things like ESI and the new website bugs to the system are completely irrelevant when it comes to this situation. Lastly, I would like to point out that with the new TG policy if I bring these concerns and questions up outside of the website I could still be punished. In my eyes that is even worse than the silencing and censorship that old TG used to do.
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