Dispute: Angela Stefanski - Atari Jaguar - Battlemorph - default settings - Player: Laura Skorina - Score: 4,028,756

Atari Jaguar - Battlemorph - default settings
Score Track	https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/ba...tari-jaguar-cd
Rules	This game has no settings for the player to select, therefore no specific rules apply. Please use default settings.
Player Name	Laura Skorina
Original Adjudication	N/A
Verification Method	Referee
Verification Date	2004-06-11
Disputed Score	4,028,756 (Rank 1)
Disputed By	GibGirl
Dispute Evidence / Rationale	So, if these need to be disputed one by one, let's start the process. This score was added to the database from an external site. https://goo.gl/wUb5X8 (link to internet archive mirror) Evidence is strong that this site did absolutely no validations of any of the scores, accepting all claims as valid. Just looking at the content of the page, with just a form to "submit" a score, shows this to be likely. Further, multiple scores added to the database from this external list have already been disputed and removed due to being impossible, (see this dispute: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...13,343,567,930 ) which should itself be sufficient to show that nothing on that list should be considered trustworthy. Also, this particular score is attributed to a person that is not a TG user, and has submitted no scores to TG at any point. I believe this score does not meet any of the standards for inclusion on TG and should be removed.

I recently learned that my Atari Jaguar high scores from the late 1990s that were imported here long ago were disputed and removed based on a specious "guilt by association" argument. I created an account here and requested that these disputes be reopened so I could prove that I did in fact get these scores.

In the case of this specific dispute, I am providing evidence on behalf of Laura Skorina, who achieved her high score on my system with myself as a witness.

Since these performances were from over 20 years ago, I obviously don't have video of the actual playthroughs available, but I do have video that I just captured today on the same console showing the stored high scores that match the original submissions.

I've attached a .zip file to this message containing the relevant video evidence. I had to downscale it to 480p to fit under the attachment file size limit, but I can provide the 1080p source through some other mechanism if needed. In this case, the relevant score is the #1 score in the video. (My score was the #2 score, which is being addressed separately.)

If anything else is required to address this dispute, please let me know.

Attachment 138404

I personally agree the argument is specious and taking all scores out based on an alleged Lack of Verification.

As we all know a lack of verification does not equate to a phony score.

I can’t say your evidence will do the trick as TG decided to accept
the dispute some time ago. But I’m with you on this.

I downloaded, extracted and watched the link left by Jhaines2112, and it does contain footage which shows the players high score, which matches the score shown here at TG.
I'm going to vote No to the disputes involving this player, as all evidence points towards them having genuinely accomplished these scores.

I had mixed thoughts when the series of disputes were brought up initially. I'm not for removing everything just because there were in fact a couple wonky scores on that board. But at the same time, my understanding is there was zero validation to get a score posted there. And despite TG's importation of the scores, they did meet TG's standards for scores that were being submitted directly to TG at the time.

Do I believe that Laura achieved the score that was on that old board that is also shown in your video here? Yes, for sure.

However does this prove that Laura achieved the score under the standards for acceptance at TG? No it does not. We don't know if the all weapons code was used for example. Not saying that as an accusation, but just that it cannot be proven with the given evidence.

I wouldn't have disputed this score myself, but now since it has been, I think it should stay as such.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdwyer138

However does this prove that Laura achieved the score under the standards for acceptance at TG? No it does not. We don't know if the all weapons code was used for example.

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Your point is well taken, but I’d say two things in response.

First, I directly witnessed the original performance and no codes were used, but that’s just my word and I can’t prove it objectively 20+ years after the fact.

Second, has Twin Galaxies always required full video of a performance for acceptance since its inception (minus the imported scores, as in this case), even in the years before the proliferation of smartphones and ubiquitous digital video? If not, then how is it reasonable to retroactively apply modern standards to these older records? And if TG has always had a hard video requirement, then shouldn’t all videoless records be stricken or asterisked across the board, rather than cherry-picking ones from a specific imported list?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jhaines2112

Second, has Twin Galaxies always required full video of a performance for acceptance since its inception (minus the imported scores, as in this case), even in the years before the proliferation of smartphones and ubiquitous digital video? If not, then how is it reasonable to retroactively apply modern standards to these older records? And if TG has always had a hard video requirement, then shouldn’t all videoless records be stricken or asterisked across the board, rather than cherry-picking ones from a specific imported list?

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Its not just these Jaguar scores. There's a lot of TG16, SNES, and Gen scores that were imported from Electronic Gaming Monthly magazine. There was a successful effort a year or two ago to dispute many of those scores as they were not meeting TG guidelines either. EGM required only a photo, with no way to confirm settings, codes, continues, etc.

Historically, most scores were recorded on VHS and mailed to a referee for viewing, or if there was an event, a referee could watch the game live.

The referee then logged the score and that was it. Nothing really happened to the VHSs. Refs would keep them, transfer them to other refs, get destroyed or lost over time, or confiscated by the police even.

TG has recently obtained some of the old VHSs and I believe was in the process of digitizing and posting them. Generally speaking though, most referee era scores will never have the original video available.

Your comment of having them stricken or asterisked is a topic that has come up for debate a handful of times, and there are strong opinions on either side of the argument. Keeping them but having them moved to a separate board or being able to filter them out of the current board have been I think the most popular solutions proposed in the past.

This situation appears to be based on a misunderstanding. This specific dispute was premised on the fact that this and other Jaguar scores were compiled through a hobbyist website where there was no expectation or requirement to provide proof - you'll recall that inclusion on the Atari Jaguar High Score page maintained by the University of Evansville Gamers' Guild only required one's name, email, game & score submitted through a page form. Taking it a step further, when Laura submitted her score back in January 1997 or earlier, there was no expectation of any further acknowledgement of her feat outside of the high score list maintained by the Gamer's Guild, a site with virtually no barriers to participation as the emphasis was simply to promote like-minded Jaguar owners to come together to share their mutual love of the system. Since Twin Galaxies set out from the inception of the International Scoreboard to maintain a verified scoreboard, Walter Day's decision to incorporate unverified scores from Internet sources to bulk up the first edition of the Twin Galaxies Official Video Game & Pinball Book of World Records (Feb. 1998) has posed a conundrum. As a result, this has prompted TG to take action from time to time such as 2000s with the mass removal of Nintendo Power-sourced scores from the TG database. The dispute initiated by GibGirl is in keeping with the same rationale and past precedent by TG. I'm not sure if your supplied evidence will lead to a reinstatement, but I wanted to clarify that for the record. Good luck!

But as an associated query - would you consider replaying some of your games now to see if you can get an even better score? Since you have a TG account and a Jaguar system, it would be awesome to see some newly recorded submissions.