As the score dispute case is now closed, any further discussion regarding the Jeremy Young's Donkey Kong Arcade Score Dispute Claim should be placed here.
As the score dispute case is now closed, any further discussion regarding the Jeremy Young's Donkey Kong Arcade Score Dispute Claim should be placed here.
Best of luck in the case. I've been lurking over the past couple of weeks and have been simply awestruck over it all. Not just with BM himself, but with how heated things were inside the forum.
I'll be honest. I really wanted to give these "legends" a second chance and the benefit of the doubt, but they'll never let go of the lies that created their reputation.
Todd's Facebook post showed how scummy he truly was. I actually read on Omnigamer's site that he broke down Dragster for his Speedrunning book in an effort to replicate how such a long-uncontested time could be attained in what was one of the earliest instances of speedrunning. It wasn't initially about taking him down, but after finding out it was impossible he had to bring that fact to light. It was simply the right thing to do.
As for Billy Mitchell himself, I was piqued seeing him try to "redeem" himself on Twitch. I praise his efforts, but never actually bothered watching him after seeing how blind his supporters were. Comments I saw included repeating his unprovable statements as if they were actually true, and over-the-top expectations. There was also those he chose to stay associated with, including Todd Rogers and Triforce. Immediate red flags. I want to like him, but cheaters and scammers are a big no from me.
Maybe BM is a decent person in the real world, but in the world of gaming a different picture is painted. We all wear masks. It's just that some people lose themselves in it along with their humanity.
I want to believe this will be the end, but I don't think he's going to quit that easily sadly. Oh well.
Well said, Streetwize. In my own case, I was initially looking forward to "rubbing shoulders" with some of the TG old-timers when I joined, only to find out when I arrived that nearly all of them stopped score chasing! That said, I was very glad to hang out with the old-timers that stuck around in addition meeting an active "Next Generation" group of TG members and I'm very glad that I am part of this cohort.
I agree that there's a group (visible on Twitch and Twitter) that exist to praise Mitchell, reflexively repeat his denials, and echo back his King of Kong quotes to him. I suspect that the vast majority don't care about gaming, and so there's no need to interrogate his actions - it's just the fun of hanging with Mitchell. And to be fair, a lot of "fandom" is simply that - no investment in anything beyond the interaction.
Yes, the review of his evidence package would be a logical coda to the dispute review, especially since it became clear to me that a number of people who were swept up in providing statements may end up amending them if Mitchell presses ahead, or try to back out all together. For example, whatever Walter Day's investment may be in defending Mitchell, what purpose would it serve to submit a sworn statement that Mitchell's 1,047,200 score was entered into the database against his wishes by RTM, after everyone here has re-examined all of his public emails and statements where he stated plainly and without coercion the opposite?
End as it should, I'm not sure that Mitchell's bravado will give him enough space to step back without loss of face.
Thank you, Twin Galaxies, for coming to the correct decision on the matter! Thank you for maintaining the cheater Billy Mitchell's lifetime leaderboard ban, for making a public statement to that end, and for making this ruling affirming competitive honesty and leaderboard integrity even in the face of actual legal threats. And hey, with the official dispute closed again, thank you also for giving us an official spot for continued discussion.
I especially appreciate the comment than anyone with new evidence can reopen a dispute without a lawyer. What i've liked best about the new TG, is doing away with the old "one set of rules for the refs and another set of rules for the players". no more of the refs can see everyones secret tactics and use them, but for non-refs tactics must be a highly regarded secret. No more of scores imported from magazines that beat refs get removed but scores imported from magazines that dont beat refs get to stay. No more of the inmates (refs) running the asylum.
i do realize a lawsuit creates a special case, so i couldnt fault special treatment of the special case too hard. however, i'd like to applaud jace for finding a way to deal with this special case without resorting to special treatment.
That is by far what delights me most about this. It really is no small point that EVERYONE can reopen a dispute in the same way billy did. Same rules for everyone.
I suspect Billy will always profess his innocence and there will always be this mass of evidence against him. Why would he want to add a failed lawsuit to that? KOK2 maybe?
If this is true, "Mitchell's 1,047,200 score was entered into the database against his wishes by RTM"why does billy seek to have the score reinstated??
Does anyone else her think that it's a bit dumb to threaten legal action with an "evidence package" that actually contained NO EVIDENCE?
The mind boggles.
so i'm prepared to accept this may be a stupid question with no answer but....
in cases like this is there any idea at all when/if the lawsuit will be filed. like, if nothing happens in X weeks (where X is a number you can state) does that mean the matter is dropped for good?
I'm fully prepared to offer a stupid answer. I should point out that I'm not a lawyer, but I have seen several episodes of Law & Order. Presumably Mitchell would claim defamation by libel if this were ever to be filed. All states have statutes of limitations on those actions, so they had better hop to it if they want to be heard.
On a more speculative note, the evidence packet as presented was clearly not prepared by a lawyer, and does not appear to be ready for prime time. My suspicion is they paid a lawyer $200 to prepare a demand letter, but have not even confronted the amount of time and effort needed to make a legitimate filing, much less a supported argument.
good point about statue of limitations. i was more concerned about just repeated demands with different evidence each time, but i think you hit on the most relevant point. ok, i looked it up, and if a 3 second internet search is to be trusted, the california statute of limitation for defamation is one year to file. the valid extension reasons such as the filer not knowing about the alleged defamation yet certainly dont apply. It looks like the clock might have run out before this even started.
on the brightside, jace has made known disputes can be reopened without threat of lawsuit, so for people just wanting the truth these statutes are no roadblock to continued investigation.
even still thank you for the clarification. that is likely what they meant.
I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that is correct, that A) the suit has to be filed in California (note how the witness statements each list both the signer's home location and California), and B) the statute of limitations for defamation in Cali is one year. However, I've heard there are obscure legal tricks to extend the window on things like that - for instance, he could possibly have filed a preliminary filing before the statute expired, giving him more time to prepare his case - so I wouldn't necessarily count out legal action by Billy based solely on the one year window. (Again, not a lawyer, and I'd love to hear from a real lawyer on this. This is just stuff I've heard of before.)
Funny you bring up "what you've heard of before". I'm not a lawyer either, but from what I've gathered from pre-litigation, case law is used quite often. It's been a long time since I took law studies so my knowledge is going to be rough. It's basically referring to outcomes of past cases to define any legal precedents for the current case. Not everything is so clear-cut, and there's a bunch of grey areas, so no two cases are going to be alike. That's why multiple cases are used. I wish I could bring up examples, but I'm scared I might end up doing something wrong.
I'm glad that whole thing has finally been dealt with. I was worried it would turn into a LOOOOOONG thread like the Dragster one.
RTM REPLY - Walter sold me out on multiple occasions already so his actions here do not surprise me at all...
-> Cheating me out of 10% stock ownership in TG - Aug/05 conference call with Brien King
-> Disavowing previous statements RE Roy during a radio interview with Roy - AllGames Feb/07
-> Coercing me to accept Steve's taped 1.049M based on "the totality of the performance" - Nov/06
-> Claiming revenue-generating ideas that I gave to him as his own - Sep/05 in B/ Mae's Lodge in front of then-fellow referee Todd Rogers
-> Attempted "hush money" payout to silence me for 10 years - Dec/13 E-MAIL from Joel West
-> Offering no support during the Atari 2600 "split", a project that I fought him against for over a year as a waste of TG resources before he directed me to implement it
This is just what I remember. So it comes as no surprise to me that Walter would sign such hogwash in the here-and-now to support the Claimant. One can only wonder whether he will go so far as to commit willful perjury on the stand in support of that egomaniac...but I think we all suspect the answer to that already.
RTM REPLY - think long-term for a minute. Everything post-KoK is unfolding to such an extent that a sequel-story is almost inevitable...sequel meaning more $$ for those directly involved with the producer and director. Off-off Broadway plays are not out of the picture either. I'm actually waiting for Billy to attempt trademarking of "Road to Redemption" at some point. And should the matter actually go to trial, no matter how brief, "The Trial of Billy Mitchell" is likely another possible story to tell down the line.
Put it all together and you may one day have a ghost-authored book about the life-story of Billy Mitchell and a related made-for-cable-TV movie.
In short, he could theoretically turn adversity into $$ over time. It's all possibly part of some plan...a public relations crisis management plan, but a plan nonetheless.
Much like his arch-nemesis, Roy Shildt, Billy seems to be of the belief that there is no such thing as bad publicity.
Consider the old Howard Stern Radio Show back in its hey-days. More people listened who HATED Stern than people who liked him...and they listened just to hear what he would say next.
Billy, comparatively, issues a single "Tweet"...I think it was that he only plays live and never submits tapes, whatever the verbiage was in the dispute thread. When you consider the YouTube count of recent views of newly released videos to the rapid escalation and growth of the dispute thread, he is apparently thriving on bad P.R. just as much as if it was good P.R.
I wonder...I just did a Google Search on the two words "Billy Mitchell" and Billy the video game player comes up first before the other Billy Mitchell, the one out of history. Makes me wonder if that Wiki page had any SEO performed on it to make this happen, but even if not then it is likely that recent negative P.R. is driving the hits thus causing that page to appear first in a search. I'm sure that Billy is quite aware of this as well. Years back he informed me post-KoK of various posts being made as he had "alerts" going to his phone/handheld device which had to do with his search criteria...so I know that he monitors to some extent recent media posts involving his name. But that was post-KoK and no lawsuits were underway, so that tells me it was done for the same reason that today's teenagers and tweens check how many "likes" their posts and pics garnered.
Bottom line is this...attention. Bill thrives on it, and whether it comes good or bad that does not matter. In the entertainment-slash-sport of Pro-Wrestling, more often than not a "heel" role (i.e. bad guy) can actually get more "pop" than the "face" role (i.e. good guy). Harken back to the days of "Stone Cold Steve Austin" outselling t-shirts of even "Hulk Hogan" during his heyday).
Nothing, and I mean nothing, would likely please Billy more than if he were to see himself as the subject matter of some "tell-all" tome featuring his side of the "story", or better yet, some made-for-cable movie about his "Rise and Fall" and his attempt to "Rise" from adversity. The pursuit of the score would no longer matter if that were to happen, as his true legacy would be the story itself, in his eyes.
That's what I foresee as potentially happening in the long-term. Worldwide media exposure well beyond the niche of gaming circles and nostalgia buffs. And short of that, a "People Magazine" article chronicling his "plight" which also might be the end-all/be-all for him in terms of worldwide exposure.
Don't laugh too hard, it could happen. Remember...within days of the original record announcement of Steve Wiebe's 947K DK score, articles appeared nearly overnight in USA Today, CNN.com and even was part of a Jay Leno opening monologue...so when it comes to nostalgia, never discount anything.
RTM REPLY - remember, Billy publicly in Lincoln Center, with Walter right there alongside for the ride, proclaimed his 1.014M score as the world's first 1M+ score on DK. And he pressured both Walter and I NOT to accept Steve Wiebe's score as the 1st TG-recognized 1M score on DK as well.
This is not Billy trying to "right a perceived wrong" or even a perceived "slight"...it is simple ego, pure and simple.
Steve's 1M score threw a monkey wrench into his earlier MTV interview promise of a "great feat" in gaming "that has never been done before". THAT is the core of his incessant drive to claim the recognition of first 1M on DK.
Billy just HAD to be recognized as "first" in terms of the "Perfect Pacman", and the same applied to being the "first" 1M on DK. Massive ego, pure and simple. Small wonder in that parody sketch which he sued (and lost over) that his head was drawn so disproportionately huge. And small wonder that in the now-classic "South Park" episode Billy's antics were so masterfully captured by Trey and Matt...the source material, Billy himself, was so transparent that the outcome was inevitable.
Regardless of how or when this ad trafficking came into effect, wouldn’t it be considered more of a response to these events instead of a direct influence or manipulation? I don’t see how that could be considered something shady against TG’s integrity during this time of damage control, esp when former administrations promoted top players for exposure while completely ignoring other players like Tim Sczerby to fuel a narrative and/or spotlight other players.
so which is it? is billy the bad guy trying to stop you from accepting the score you wanted to accept? or is walter the bad guy trying to make you accept thescore you didnt want to
nevermind, i know which. you dislike steve as well. thats why after you were banned one of your final comments on the way out was how you had no regrets on how you treated steve and why you have no problem bashing steve's wife publicly.
walter and billy arent very popular, and you can ride that. but try not to over play the saint card. you had your fair share of involvement in all this nonsense as well. its great to see you finally swap sides and all, and finally take the right side, but dont go with your revisionist history to absolve yourself.
RTM REPLY - makes you wonder what that toilet paper was that Billy was waving at everyone claiming it was "Evidence" seeing how so much of what is in that 150+ page "package" were statements and affirmations dated within the past several months.
My guess is that it was "Krusty Brand" toilet paper
Although the dispute review thread is now closed, there's one element I wanted to have posted here following the publication of the EGM article "The Split-Screen Man" (30 September 2019). It pertains to the color output of a Two-Bit converter which was used by Childs for Mitchell's direct capture to VCR. TG tests found that the converter signal output was recorded in either in black and white/monochromatic, in contrast to the Mitchell games that were rendered in full "standard" DK color schemes. With a little troubleshooting, Pineiro reportedly found a VCR set-up that captured the Two Bit output in (almost) full color, a situation that was cited in the evidence package as a specific demonstration of the ineptitude of TG and Jace Hall. New information cited in the article, however, puts TG's initial test results and hypothesis back into play.
The Color Issue (Evidence Package: page 128)
"TG claimed that a two-bit converter could not capture color, which it supposedly did in Billy Mitchell's performances...They [TG] were going to claim that the equipment used in Billy Mitchell's performance can't produce color, therefore, Billy Mitchell's performance couldn't have been produced by an original Donkey Kong machine. However, these claims were debunked in less than 24 hours.
After receiving the phone call from Jace Hall, Carlos Pineiro and Neil Hernandez began attempts to produce color through a two-bit converter. Almost immediately, Hernandez suggested the issue lied within the dry resistors and capacitors on the game board. Hernandez and Pineiro decided to put new resistors and capacitors onto the Donkey Kong game board, and it resulted in the two-bit converter producing color to a 95% match of Mitchell's alleged tapes. What Hall and his technicians failed to do for over a month had been easily done in a few hours...However, this debunked claim is probably the most significant, because it highlights Jace Hall's and his technicians' incompetence better than anything else in the entire dispute. Hall and his technicians had spent "over a month" researching this, and were so confident that this converter could not produce color that they published an entire article about it. This event highlights Jace Hall's inexperience with arcade equipment better than anything else."
In the article "Split Screen," author Josh Harmon touches on this very issue, with a significant addition to the story:
"The evidence package makes a point of stating that the major developments in the investigation and testing process originated from Mitchell’s team, not from the tests being conducted by Twin Galaxies. In particular, it points to the efforts to produce stable color from the Two-Bit Converter. Pinero agreed that he and those helping him made breakthroughs Twin Galaxies could not, including on the color issue. What he left out of his official reports, however, was that maintaining this color wasn’t just a matter of finding the right VCR and replacing the dried-out capacitors and resistors on the Two-Bit Converter. To record color, someone also had to place a finger in a certain position on the convertor’s chip and hold it there the entire time, Pinero told me. He speculated this was because poking the chip in the right place increased the resistance by just enough that the VCR could interpret the signal."
I think it's fair to say that it's a massive stretch to consider someone volunteering to press their finger onto a chip for six-plus hours of attempts at getting a world record, let alone something you'd forget to highlight in describing said set-up for TG and other third parties.
Twin Galaxies, it is time for you to release the gameplay footage used as evidence of the record which was the target of this dispute. Continuing to keep this footage secret is harming the credibility of your claims of transparency, Twin Galaxies, so you ought to desist from doing so. To help you locate the videocassettes containing the footage, here is what they look like:-
2.) Yes we were and still are 100% confident that the converter can not produce the color seen in the score performance video we were evaluating without modification to the defined description of how the original recordings were made. It has yet to be proven otherwise, by anyone.
3.) The reason that the Two Bit converter does not produce a signal that a VHS recorder can properly record is because the signal being output does not conform to the required specifications that VHS recorders need. This is consistent among all TWO BIT converters that are outputting an original unmodified Donkey Kong PCB signal. It has nothing to do with resistors or capacitors being old. The TWO BIT converter we were using was brand new. All one has to do is measure the differential gain and differential phase components in the signal with any cheap network spectrum analyzer to see and understand that what is coming out of the TWO BIT device is likely not going to get you what you need for a matching recording.
Certainly, there are a number of methods to "correct" the signal to perfection (not just "almost" as Carlos' human finger-resistance method reportedly obtained) - which we could have easily done, but all of which require adding an element that was not specified in the description of how the original footage was reportedly captured.
It is important to understand that you can make one piece of hardware do anything you want if you allow modifications to accomplish the goal. I could make a DK PCB output a Harry Potter movie with enough modifications.
It is not helpful to the investigation and verification process of the recording method claimed to be used, by providing information about a method for a different recording process. Not sure how that creates supportive evidence of the original recording process.
If modifying the claimed process is acceptable, I would suggest that instead of using a human finger to fix the signal to get a good color recording (that still doesn't match the tapes), you may want to use something like this instead. Might be better, might not. Who knows!: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...Corrector.html
It looks like someone has copyright struck Dwayne Richard.
You've likely already seen this, but it suggests that it is absolutely one of any of the Billy Mitchells out there:
Any remaining doubt I might have had about him cheating has officially ended. First threatening to sue, now resorting to this? Give me a break!
FYI: New (short) YouTube video from Apollo Legend regarding the take downs cited above:
Click image to start video
if you read the letter from his lawyer. it says he is seeking to have "all" his scores reinstated
He was not the first to 1million tho.. That game was the one he used MAME and saved states on.
I came across a video of Roy Schildt interviewing Todd Rogers (august 2010) about the 1,062,800 score. Not sure if this came across here.
It a clip from “DK MC Conspiracy pt 5”, not pt 6
(better save before gets taken down)
- “There was no intend in the beginning to make any records”
- “I told you earlier, nothing was arranged”
- "And it progressed into, since I am here, I want us to steal a performance. Show me what you got on Donkey Kong. And that developed into a gameplay”
Also talking about the idea of BM against TR playing DK blindfolded, clearly no mention of a well planned high score event like it is said in the evidence package.
This contradicts some statements regarding the 1,062,800 score about a planned High score attempt (with a referee who wasn’t planned to be there).
("I was contacted in regards to a Billy Mitchell world record attempt", "Delivered it to Boomers for a high score attempt") etc.
RTM REPLY - this is nothing more than an attempt by "Team Billy" to squash the truth. Billy's not truly protecting his "brand" as there is nothing to copyright about whatever his "brand" is short of showing pics of his hot sauce bottles within a frame.
Due to Billy's elevated recognition status in the public eye he is subject to fair-usage more so than most of us...he's perfectly fine when it works for his benefit but throws a tantrum when it does not. I'm surprised he has not taken further similar actions on the multitude of additional videos out there let alone the Podcasts and this very "Post Dispute" thread itself.
Geez, even Roy did not engage in similar antics.
YouTube's policies governing copyrighting may be found here - https://www.youtube.com/about/copyri...roubleshooting
There is a series of options to click to learn more, and it is difficult to know exactly under what auspices that the video was taken down.
The Streisand Effect will insure that does not happen. There are already a half a dozen reposts of The Perfect Fraudman and The King of Con up on YouTube. The irony is that those films are hard slogs to get through, but now I feel compelled to bear down and re-watch them.
Again with the speculation: I would be surprised to learn that Mr. Mitchell filed that copyright notice. There is some very stern language presented when making that claim about being criminally liable for filing a false notice. It just would be a lot safer to have a toadie file it and maintain your "plausible" deniability in the event Mr. Richard were to counter sue.
If that is in fact what has happened, the strike will fall apart shortly after Mr. Richard files his counter notice.
Personally, I hope he does file a counter-notice. Odds are regardless of whether or not it was actually him, it'll only make him look worse.
RTM REPLY - interesting points. Assume a "toadie" filed at Bill's direction, much as he used to have people like Dwayne and myself make posts to counter KoK claims after that film's release. There's no proof of this and he can always, if it suits his needs, throw that "toadie" under the bus and state that no such instructions were ever given.
So if no one raises a ruckus over these "yanks" of videos by YouTube, then Billy gets to sit back and do nothing. But if a stew pot is boiling over he can then claim "wasn't anything that (he) asked someone to do on (his) behalf)".
As always he plays the media like a fiddle.
I wonder...pure speculation...WHAT would happen in the here-and-now if someone dug up an old, obscure small-town local newspaper either from stateside or international, where a local kid many years ago, perhaps that town's local arcade "Top Gun", was the first documented 1M+ on "Donkey Kong" WAY back in the early 1980's, and yet that town never heard of "Twin Galaxies" back then. Wouldn't that be something, indeed.
as a side note, i could've sworn I heard Roy's contested scores also had newspaper documentation. So if those rumors are true, the both pre-tgsap and modern day tgsap are unified in not just ceding authority to the news
No one but the owner of content --or someone acting directly on behalf of the owner in an official capacity-- who must be named in the form can make a claim of ownership to the content they say someone else posted, either in part or full on their video. It is electronically signed and binding. Ive filed dozens upon dozens of these against channels from stealing some or part of my largest earning vids, its very prevalent on youtube.
It would have to be filed by Billy himself or someone who signed they are acting for him and he is aware of it.
On the dispute thread TG mentioned:
"Twin Galaxies has completed its review of the materials."
When will TG decide an outcome of the review? Does this mean Billy scores are re-instated or not?
Does this mean a legal action will follow from either side or not?
So nothing will happen now? any next steps /actions expected from TG?
Read the response letter attached to the TG final post:
"Let there be no confusion, Mr. Mitchell's Donkey Kong sores (sic) of 1,047,200 (the King of Kong "tape"), 1,050,200 (the Mortgage Brokers score) as well as any other de-listed scores that were attributed to him will not be restored to the score database. There will be no retraction or reinstatement."
I might as well plop my theory here, hopefully someone can poke a huge hole in it. It's not an original theory or anything.
I think Robert Childs was tasked with making a solution for recording gameplay from a DK cabinet by his old friend and arcade legend Billy Mitchell. So he set about the task, and he came into possession of the two-bit converter board but didn't use it because he couldn't get it to work. Anyway he got some other help and it turned out to be some sort of emulation solution, and it worked great.
Whenever Billy wanted to do some recording, Robert would show up and "hook up the VCR" which consisted of converting an arcade cabinet into an emulation cabinet etc. Billy would play on non-original hardware and otherwise legitimately play the game and obtain new high scores as it recorded to VHS tape. Referees (Todd Rogers, etc) stand by and adjudicate the gameplay.
Years pass and the tapes are determined to be non-original hardware, and the scores are removed, etc, etc.
Robert Childs doesn't remember the setup because he'd have to confess to using emulation and letting down his friend. Meanwhile his friend makes up every cockamamie theory in the book because as far as he knows he played on a cabinet, and there's no way his friend would let him down so badly.... knowing how important it was to set the records in an authentic way.
It vindicates Billy and Todd, at least as it relates to the DK scores and not all the other shenanigans.
What's the hole in this theory?
Twin Galaxies, it is time for you to release the gameplay footage used as evidence of the record which was the target of this dispute. Continuing to keep this footage secret is harming the credibility of your claims of transparency, Twin Galaxies, so you ought to desist from doing so. To help you locate the videocassettes containing the footage, here is what they look like:-
I think the biggest issue with that defense is billy claimed nintendo certified his board before and after. That would mean, they had a legit donkey kong board, yet for some inexplicable reason rob screwed billy by not using that board and instead using the emulation. At that point you might as well switch the "dwayne did it' to a "rob did it" set up where rob maliciously screws his friend when he didnt have to just waiting for years for someone to find out.
another issue is the screen orientation. the output which was recorded was inverted, meaning, if billy was playing that in a machine he'd be playing upside down. hard to imagine he wouldnt notice that. i guess in what if world some solution can be found where rob is so malicious he finds a way around that, but still a strech
weaker issues are things like there being no sound. mame at the time the sound was a giveaway. meaning not only should someone like billy have noticed the sound was off but further theres the intentional coverup of leaving sound out.
if the tactic is going to turn into some sort of claim robert childs maliciously set billy up on purpose, while thats not 100% impossible, its so improbable I just dont think its valid
You would have to roll your own operating system to prevent the startup of MAME from revealing itself. It seems pretty oblivious of Mr. Mitchell to not have noticed that Donkey Kong started with a lengthy and distinctly more modern power on self-test than usual. Also, that seems like a lot of initiative for Mr. Childs (or anyone for that matter) to proactively perpetrate a fraud on Mr. Mitchell's behalf.
Jump skip to 7:55:
In the evidence package, Matt Furgal (page 39) attested that "I am extremely familiar with donkey Kong cabinets, 60 in 1 cabinets, anniversary cabinets. I am very familiar with the boards that go in them, and the connectors that facilitate those boards. This is relevant because Nintendo hardware has unique connectors to other cabinets including emulation cabinets....Throughout the event, I frequently visited the situation to have reassurance that everything was operating correctly."
Joe Tortorella indicated "It was easy to identify this as an authentic Donkey Kong machine based on the physical hardware inside the cabinet. During the performance, the backdoor of the machine was off, and all the internal hardware was viewable for anyone to check."
Billy Mitchell (page 45) also claimed that "Throughout my time playing, the back of the machine was left open for the entire public to view. If at any point there was anything abnormal occurring, the entire world could have seen."
This is not really a direct response to your question, but I'd be curious as to your speculations in light of your theory:
Why did Billy Mitchell hastily position himself between the camera and the cabinet?
It's really an awkward movement. More awkward, even, than Todd Rogers' offer to gift Mr. Mitchell 50 points.
"Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software, and architecture. ... See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section "What Works Are Protected.""
the performance itself however is copyrightable
Think of a televised poker game. The video of the game itself can be copyrighted. the tactics used though cant be patented.
however, all that said, even the performance itself -- especially when claiming its newsworthy -- definitely has fair use. so i agree that any copyright based on a snippet of gameplay is likely not going to hold up
Windows Movie Maker would have been available back then and could have been used to edit MAME footage no worries, with no need for fancy stuff like changing the MAME source code. Not much skill required.
After Weibe's issues with not recording the machine boot-up, one would think that Mitchell would have been very aware to make sure the recording of any authentic video had the entire boot-up captured. However this was not an option using MAME (due to the differing boot-up screens) so there's no boot-up recorded on the videos I've seen. This is enough to rule out Billy somehow being 'duped' into playing on a MAME machine.
RTM REPLY - you can't copyright a video game pattern. There is nothing "artistic" about doing so. Copyrighting a sewing pattern stands a better chance of succeeding in court of copyright law, truth be told...at least that would be deemed "artistic".
My post-dispute theory on what happened, in general.
-> Billy for years had proclaimed that he never used MAME
-> Yet more than a decade after some of these performances, it is clear that he did on at least a few occasions
-> His credibility took a hit because of this alone
-> Likely it never occurred to him years back that such a scientific and detailed analysis of his performances would be made
-> Add to that the fact that these scores were submitted to TG and that's a bigger credibility hit
-> And now he and "Team Billy" are in full-blown P.R. Crisis Management "damage control"
The irony here is inescapable. There were multiple anecdotes from yesteryear where Billy, the self-proclaimed "sheriff" of his local arcade before Walter finally met him, would challenge other peoples' scores even going so far as to contact them at their own homes.
Truly this is a case of "what comes around goes around" as the old adage goes.
Walter himself is huge believer in "kharma" so it should come as no surprise to him that the very definition of "kharma" is unfolding right before his very eyes even though he insists on viewing Billy with blinders on.
RTM REPLY - I can't say with certainty what happened with that one...it's hard to keep track nearly 12 years later which tapes are where, but the overwhelming majority of my TG tape cache was shipped out way back in November of 2007 via Brian Kuh delivering the tapes to a fellow TG staffer still active at that time in Maine. So before I put my foot in my mouth, the answer is that I am not sure what happened with that one.
Perhaps I stated this specific tape's whereabouts years back somewhere on the forum. I recollect a few very specific tapes that did not get shipped off with the rest such as the "Carnival" and "Tempest" records which I sent to Mark Longridge but those are the only two that I clearly recollect after so many years.
wow david race wow
15 hrs ·
My name is David Race.
- I have played 7 perfect games of Pac-Man on 5 +1 settings and one on 3+1.
- I have the fastest completion time for a perfect game(5+1): 3hrs 28 min 49sec.
- I have also played a perfect game of Pac-Man turbo on 5+1.
- I am the current high score holder on Pac-Man Plus, have kill screened Ms. Pac-Man on both factory and turbo speed, and have scored over 1 million points on Jr. Pac-Man factory and kill screened Jr. Pac-Man turbo. Needless to say,
- I have a keen interest in Pac-Man and related Pac games from the early 80s. I am also interested in the history of Pac-Man and related stories, the quest for the perfect score being one of them.
After looking over the Billy Mitchell Evidence Package that was made public during the first half of September, I noticed the following claims certain witnesses were declaring, under penalty of perjury, to be true and correct to the best of their knowledge:
"5. . . . An announcement came that Billy Mitchell would be traveling to Funspot on the 4th of July weekend and that he would achieve a perfect score on Pac-man." - Ken Sweet's Statement ( p. 62)
"4. A public announcement was made that Billy would be at Funspot attempting a Perfect Pac-man on the 4th of July weekend. The location was an obvious choice, Funspot, also known as the world's largest arcade." - Chris Ayra's Statement (p. 66)
"5. I practiced approximately 6 weeks, and made a public announcement that I'd be traveling back to Funspot on the 4th of July weekend. In this announcement, I promised a perfect score." - Billy Mitchell's Statement (p. 73) ( https://drive.google.com/…/1BMbW-_fSwCFQ1Kzl59pj7TnoQi…/view )
These and other statements made over the years contradict what first hand witnesses have consistently affirmed.
There is an article from WIRED dated 07/02/2008 titled, "July 3, 1999: Gobbling Up a Record". It begins with, "The world record was set by 33-year-old Billy Mitchell of Hollywood, Florida, during a U.S.-Canada clash over the Fourth of July weekend."
Later in the article, it goes on to say, "Mitchell and an American friend had spent the previous year in a grudge match against a pair of Canadians, trying to achieve the first perfect Pac-Man score as a matter of national pride.
In May 1999, one of the Canadians, Rick Fothergill, came within 90 points of the perfect score while playing at the Funspot arcade, described then as the world's second-largest arcade, with about 500 games.
The foursome set a Fourth-of-July-weekend rendezvous for their head-to-head competition."
( https://www.wired.com/…/07/july-3-1999-gobbling-up-a-record/ )
The statements having to do with the 4th of July weekend are false. There was no agreed-upon rendezvous set for the 4th of July weekend between Billy, his American friend(Chris Ayra) and the Canadians(Rick Fothergill and Neil Chapman). This brings me back to the statements quoted above and the "public announcement" which Billy and others are now claiming took place in advance of his arrival at Funspot in July of 1999.
I have been looking for any evidence of such an announcement and have not been able to find it.
I have asked Billy to back up this claim by pointing or linking to a source that I can check out for myself. I have yet to receive any response which references any source that can be verified to date prior to July 3, 1999.
Pat Laffaye, who was at Funspot the day after Billy achieved the perfect score, stated in a CAGDC forum post("Billy Mitchells 1999 Pac Man achievement", Reply #11, Nov. 15, 2007), "As Gary Vincent told me later that weekend, Mitchell called him to ask if he could come up to make the attempt without anyone else's knowledge. He agreed and was sworn to secrecy, and it so happened I did not walk into Funspot that day of the WR. That would be July 3, 1999, not the actual holiday on the 4th. I certainly would have seen him playing, but missed it completely." (http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/…/topic,345.msg2280.html… )
I have communicated with Rick Fothergill and we were both shocked to hear about this "public announcement".
We had discussed this issue with Billy during a 3-way phone conversation some years back and these recent claims in the form of signed statements were news to us.
Billy Mitchell on more than one occasion, when retelling the story of the perfect Pac-Man, stated that Walter Day did not even know he was at Funspot until he called him upon reaching the split screen(https://youtu.be/MfNvVnG_cZk 11:50-11:55).
The same goes for Chris Ayra.
On July 4th of this year during a livestream from Funspot, Billy arrived at the split screen and began to describe what happened in 1999, "So what happened is I, I took out my cell phone and I called my friend, who is like equally as good as me, he just didn't get it done. And um, he's, 'What's going on?' I go, 'Oh I'm at Funspot.' He goes, 'You Are?' And I go, 'Yeah. .', he, I go, 'I played a perfect game so far I'm on the split screen.' He goes, 'Nuh-uh.' I go, 'Yeah I am.' He goes, 'Who's there with you?' and I go, 'There's a kid standing right here', I go, 'There's a lot of people..I'. He said, 'Give somebody the phone. . ." (https://www.facebook.com/bret.k.2013/videos/2792636480763443/UzpfSTI1MDQ2NjYxODkzNTMxMzozOTQ0NDYzODc4NzA2Njg/)
In a youtube video that was published on June 14, 2016 Billy said, "I didn't call Chris, I had somebody standing next to me call him, they go, 'Hey Bill's here at Funspot.' 'No he isn't.' 'Yeah he is. He's right here.' He goes, 'He's at the start of the split screen.' Chris says, 'Yeah, what's his score, what's the screen say?'"
( https://youtu.be/MfNvVnG_cZk 12:22-12:33)
If Chris didn't know Billy was at Funspot, how should we interpret Chris' statement in the evidence package which says, "A public announcement was made that Billy would be at Funspot attempting a Perfect Pac-man on the 4th of July weekend."?
If this was true, is it reasonable to believe that Chris wouldn’t know that Billy was at Funspot?
Either the statement he signed is false, or Billy is lying.
At the end of September I asked Walter Day if he knew that Billy was at Funspot before he received the call on July 3, 1999? He responded in the affirmative, so I put the logical conclusion of his answer before him, namely if true, then Billy’s account is false.
Either Walter is mistaken or Billy is. The law of non-contradiction remains in force. Both stories cannot be true.
In May of 1999 a gentlemen’s agreement was made between the Pac-Man competitors at the end of the 1st Funspot tournament. No one was to play Pac-Man to get the perfect score until they met again to go head to head at the next Funspot event/tournament. Walter Day announced that this agreement had been made between Rick, Neil, Billy, and Chris(who was in Florida).
Unfortunately, Billy Mitchell violated this gentlemen’s agreement and went to Funspot behind everyone’s back in order to achieve the perfect Pac-Man first. This was not during a tournament or an agreed-upon time where Rick, Neil, Billy and Chris could meet in head to head competition.
There was no honor or integrity in what Billy did.
Honestly, after seeing the response to Carlos Pineiro’s statement and the video Carlos posted to set the record straight, I believe that none of these signed statements were ever intended to be seen by the public.
You obviously can’t challenge something of which you are unaware.
It appears these statements have been embellished with false claims in order to present Billy Mitchell in the best possible light.
I don’t know how someone could even think such a thing was justified in any way. Yes, much can be said about everything leading up to July 3, 1999, but it wouldn’t change the fact that Billy Mitchell is still the first one to achieve a perfect game of Pac-Man as far as we know. Rick Fothergill openly acknowledges this. One can try to make a case why the score should not have been accepted by Twin Galaxies, but it still would have been a legitimate game where a perfect score was achieved. Those who bring up Bill Bastable are either ignorant concerning the situation or purposely withholding information from their audience. A recent video by Apollo Legend is a prime example.
( https://youtu.be/LbCQKvlMsbY )
It’s bad enough that Billy violated the agreement not to go for the perfect score until the next Funspot tournament, but the fact he felt it necessary to lie about it now in the advancement of a case to clear his name really undermines his credibility and integrity. The same holds true for anyone else who may have signed a statement containing information they knew to be false.
I’m sorry but “the end justifies the means” is the mantra of the ethically challenged and morally bankrupt.
Anyone who wishes to discuss this can contact me at: email@example.com.
Note to those who have my telephone number:
My phone is currently set to automatically record all calls. If you do not consent to being recorded, then don’t call. Any attempt to continue after informing me that you do not give your consent, will result in the call’s termination.
Thanks for posting Race's Facebook post, Damien. It's a significant rebuke of Mitchell's Pac-Man claims, and I think it mirrors a larger problem we also found in the other witness statements. Changing well-established and long-held understandings of basic events to fit the needs of "counter-arguing" the evidence is not a winning strategy. As we've seen, you just end up alienating a bigger and bigger audience. Perhaps Mitchell is banking that his Twitch audience won't care about these changes, but obviously the broader gaming community will. With Race's post, I can't help but be reminded of portions of The Split-Screen Man article where both Pineiro and Knucklez are basically imploring Mitchell to come clean because they couldn't stand the illogic of pretending the evidence isn't compelling, and yet Mitchell keeps pressing head, doubling down, tripling down. It goes to show you as much as Mitchell claims he's out there battling for the reputation of his friends, he's actually accomplishing the opposite, so much so that friends are basically pleading with him to confide the truth in them - even if they have to keep it a secret - just so they can begin to have full faith in their senses and rational faculties again as a reassurance that they're not going crazy. That said, I do believe that ultimately Mitchell doesn't have to "release them" from the prison of the mind - as adults they can make the decision to trust their own judgement and stand on their own, as Pineiro and Race have done.
The one person who can never walk away on their own, however, is Billy Jr. It's in his DNA. Mitchell's his old man, and because of that Billy Jr will never have the option of stepping back on his own accord in favour of his own judgement. If the Mitchells are continuing to follow the content here closely, then let me make a personal appeal: Billy, if you're going to press ahead with the lawsuit, please ask Billy Jr. to step back. Clearly, he's a talented young man with a bright future ahead of him. His enrolment at West Point is a testament to his patriotism and dedication to country. But the success or failure of the possible lawsuit shouldn't be on his shoulders. For example, from what I can tell, Billy Jr. may have well written over 75% of the evidence package. In reality he shouldn't be within a country mile of the dispute, let alone in the trenches. Sometimes I wonder if the only reason this whole package came together was because Billy Jr's continuing faith in your denials required it. I think a lot of us have noticed through Robbie's and McCurdy's Twitch chats, BillyPacman Twitter posts, Facebook exchanges, etc., that Billy Jr. is being affected and not in a good way. The fact that he's shielding you from (former) friends, calling them a cancer and threatening to call the cops - he shouldn't be doing any of that. As parents, our goal/hope is to lift the burdens of our children, not pass on our own. He deserves to face the future with a clean slate.
I might have missed something over the years, so i'm asking....
1......Has TG given a reason for not releasing the tapes?
2......Given his chronic love of self promotion, why hasn't Mitchell ever released the footage?
3......Simon, what do you think the footage might show that disproves his "first perfect" claim to be true?
4......Supposedly given that the then TG admin changed the rules to 5 + 1 men to accommodate Mitchell, did someone already get a perfect on 3+1?
if Billy is lying about his achievement played a perfect pacman on 3rd of July which was publicly announced as 4th of Jly and no one really there to see if it was real, then maybe the tape is also a "make-up" and not real?Quote:
Either the statement he signed is false, or Billy is lying.
So maybe he did not achieved a perfect pacman game if the end of the game is not on the tape!
Therefore the reason Simon is asking for the tapes.
Make more sense now, to believe he never actually got a perfect pacman if his timelines and witnesses never attend or was there on 3rd July nor on a phone call?
hey guys i've thought about this issue since dread raised it, and since all i can do is speculate, i'd rather give the longer answer (i know, no suprirse) so that you know the facts i'm basing my speculation on
when billy recently redid the perfect pacman and failed in some attempts, i saw some of his fans celebrating that he got the perfect. they confused the split screen with a perfect. also, (no i wont names publicly, the point isnt to shame) at least one very loud witness in billy's defense who saw the original perfect pacman didnt even know the dot regenerate. that tells me that witness may not have seen a perfect after all since he didnt even know what to look for. a life lost when the witness wasnt there, well sine this witness didnt see the whole thing, nor did this witness know what a perfect score even was, and based on those things combined it hit me the only thing he really witnessed that we can be sure of is the splitscreen. I think you're gonna have similiar issue with witnesses of any score. they know a game was played on a certain day, but they didnt notice the score nor did they notice all rules followed. in other words, they only witnessed a game was played, not the score, not the perfect
also dread makes a good point they dont know how long it took. do we really believe 5.5 hours exactly down to the second? further, in billy's evidence package when they tried t list what he does and doesnt submit they even admitted not all the scores are accurate but maintained thats not the point since whether or not it was submitted yet on the leaderboard is the point. well, Mr.Mitchel may think the accuracy of his scores or the leaderboard isnt important, but i think he's hard pressed to find many of us who agree. i can only speculate he's refering to the time of perfect pacman, but to be fair it may have been another of his scores. point us, even in his write up (which i think was his son, not him, but with his blessing so i'll still attribute to him), he acknowledged incorrect scores while also claiming it doesnt matter
this leads me to believe
1. At a minimum billy got a split screen that people confused for a perfect. he failed in his perfect attempt but upon noticing how many people gave him credit for a perfect, he took that credit -- I do not subscribe to this theory, but i find it plausible
2 I complete reject the theory he never did it all, too many witnssesses, he must have done something
3. since he did redo it fairly shortly after, and he didnt need to rush a fake score, actually i do believe he got the perfect
4. because he's billy mitchel, and the rules are different for him, when "fastest" perfect was added, i think they were just to lazy to rewatch and time the tape. we already know in many cases the rules were different for him. so i think they juts guessed the time.
dread and i both agree bily just guessed his time for the perfect and it was entered. this is egregious and the score should've never been there. it shows just how much special treatment billy got, how blatant it was, and what a joke pre-tgsap folk treated the scoreboard as. this wasnt some unknown, this wasnt a mistake slipping through the cracks, this was their poster boy, and they just didnt care how bad they looked. i guess they thought other gamers were all stupid or something
However, where i disagree with dread, yet respect where hes coming from is i do believe he did the perfect, so dont confuse perfect pacman track with fastest perfect pacman track. yes yes, maming dk, guessing perfect time, of course this makes you want to doubt everything the person did so i'm on board stripped all scores. we just cant be sure of any of his scores due to all the special treatment he got. however, if i were forced to guess i'd guess his perfect.
tl;dr there are facts that allow us to speculate. and based on the facts I think its reasonable to conclude his perfect pacman score was valid, however they just guessed/lied about his time. that track isnt as big a deal to him, and they were too lazy to reverify.
David Race's post prompted me to re-examine the Pac-Man information contained in the Evidence Package since I recalled that Mitchell claimed his Fast Time was never submitted to TG with his permission, along with Zaxxon and the 1.047 DK score.
"Reckless Lack of Care for the Truth (pg. 78)
Billy Mitchell never submitted the Zaxxon score of 76,650, the Pac-man Fastest Completion Score, or the Donkey Kong score of 1,047,200. These scores were put into the Twin Galaxies database without Billy Mitchell's permission."
As before, it just defies reason for Mitchell to argue that these entries were accepted, verified, and listed on his Player page without his knowledge given his intimate involvement with TG and proximity to Walter Day:
Like with the 1.047m score, it looks like Mitchell made the decision to throw out his own Pac-Man fastest achievement as a tactical move. I recall others pointed out the varying times associated with his score (close to 6 hours, 6 hours over 6 hours), and it was suggested that by settling in on 5:30, he insulated himself against accusations that he took extended (illegal) breaks that would be more difficult to refute if he had a 6+ hour session. That said, I'm not completely aware of how rules were enforced at this time.
Curiously, Chris Ayra points out in his statement that a referee was present (pg. 66) although the TG verification was Video.
Does anyone know why the Zaxxon score would be pre-emptively excluded by Mitchell?
As an interest piece, here's an interview with Mitchell from 2000:
Despite a statement attributed to him after Funspot that he was retiring, his competitive spirit was still strong in the interview. Interestingly, his next goal was to achieve a new fastest completion record, clocking around 3:45 because "history will honour the fastest time as the best performance." In a statement that I might be misinterpreting, it looks like Mitchell argued that he didn't use any patterns to clear the game because "I wanted to raise the bar higher - to a level that no one else can match." That said, he does state that he went "off pattern" at about 1.9 million points in another interview.
RTM REPLY - to my best recollection Tim Balderramos (spelling ?) was the first gamer to submit a 3+1 "perfect" on MAME after the rules for arcade had already been changed to 5+1. He was unaware of this and in short order submitted a "perfect" 5+1 on MAME and I believe he did that on arcade as well at some point thereafter
Prior to TG changing the rules to 5+1 was the pre-2000 era and I don't believe that back then anyone had claimed within the then-TG forum/database a score of 3,333,180 using the original 3+1 settings.
Rick Forthergill's 3,333,270 at the very first ACAM event was the highest ever submitted under the new 5+1 settings at that time
Just my 2 cents as someone who has used emulators for a couple of decades -- I think Billy must have had help from someone who knows a thing or two about MAME. In the dispute thread it was pointed out that any CS student could have commented out the lines in the source code and I agree with that, but that is only part of the story.
Tool-assisted superplays were in their infancy in 2004, I'm not even aware of any arcade runs from that time, the few videos that existed back then were all for the NES using an emulator called Famtasia. You'd have to be totally brazen to even attempt a TAS with the early versions of MAME, considering 1) MAME used samples for the audio up until version 0.116 in 2007 so that would be a giveaway; 2) the timing was slightly off, which would also be obvious to competitive players; and 3) MAME did not support re-recording until 2010.
MAME did have save states early on but they were not perfect, if you tried to string together a series of states into one input file there was always the chance it would desync, you could edit the .INP in a hex editor but again that's not something I'd expect Billy to be able to do on his own. If I were trying to make a high score run using the tools from back then I'd probably opt for splicing the video segments together digitally rather than trying to build the perfect .INP.
At any rate I'm wondering if Billy or one of his pals ever reached out to anyone on the MAME development team (or maybe the MAME Action Replay Page?) to ask how to make MAME look more like a legitimate arcade performance. For example the site forums.marpirc.net has posts on recording MAME input files dating back to 2002, from the name I'd presume there was also an IRC channel back then. I'd be very curious if any of the people involved in recording DK ever got an e-mail or message back then because I just can't see Billy or any of the people in his circle figuring out on their own that they needed to set the refresh rate to 60.6 or underclock the CPU.
In fact here's one post from that forum where a poster says he called Billy and Walter to discuss an .INP file in 1999, the post is about Track n Field but it shows they were well aware of MAME early on: http://www.marpirc.net/viewtopic.php...270c17693#p620
EDIT: just saw your post, great research!
On a related note, I wanted to see if @RTM or others recall the second arcade tournament at Funspot in 2000 and the account contained in the following magazine
Tips & Tricks magazine (August 2000) no. 66
"Fun spot 2000 Classic Video Game Championship
The second annual Funspot Classic Video Games Championship was once again the site where players could show-case their skills and set new world records in 100 different classic video and pinball titles. The tournament took place June 1 to 4 in Weirs Beach, New Hampshire. For the first time in history, three Ms. Pac- Man players scored over 800,000 within minutes on three separate machines: Rick Fothergill of Canada, Chris Ayra (the current Ms. Pac-Man World Record holder from Miami) and relative unknown Darren Harris from Long Island. Harris surprised everyone by picking up the Ms. Pac-Man Funspot tournament title. "Player of the Century" Billy Mitchell was praised by Walter Day, the head of the Twin Galaxies Intergalactic Scoreboard, in an awards ceremony following the tournament. Mitchell was honored once again for becoming the first person to play a perfect game of Pac-Man and for breaking his own Donkey Kong world record of 874,200 (set back in 1982!)."
There's a typo with the 1982 score (should be 874,300), but does anyone recall the score that Mitchell apparently achieved? It doesn't appear on the donkeykong blogspot timeline, sounds like it was overlooked. On the blogspot timeline, Tim Sczerby is credited with achieving a score of 879,200 on 17 August 2000, verified by video on 23 April 2001 by TG. It would be interesting to confirm if Mitchell presented a "new" score that just squeaked past Sczerby at the 2000 Funspot tournament, although I should point out that the tournament took place in June so it wouldn't be a "direct response" unless there was word a "new guy" was closing in on his old score . According to the blogspot timeline, Mitchell surpassed his 1982 record in 2004 at the Midwest Gaming Classic with a score of 933,900. The final caveat - I was pointed to a 2009 thread at CAGDC about this question, where PL suggested that the report about the new high score didn't occur at Funspot, that the reporting might have been wrong, but "perhaps a video tape was brought to the tourney." (tongue in cheek). No one who was there chimed in to clarify, I'm hoping someone might remember here.
Turns out I was wrong, concerns over cheating with MAME to create fake scores go back further than I'd thought. A few posts:
October 30 1999, discussion of a closed-source MAME fork to discourage INP file cheating:
"I now have a preliminary version of MAME 35 Final, where the
major flaw I referred to is now impossible to do. The file format
of the INP file has been alterred, the INP files created with
this version will only playback with this version."
"I'd like to see Ben Jos play this version for Donkey Kong, and
German to play Frogger also, only to show the nay-sayers that
their games were for real. I'd also like to see Phil Lamat play
League Bowling and get a perfect game with this version...
only to confirm their great skills are for real."
June 8, 2000, another mention of Billy (playing at Funspot):
"Donkey Kong Bill Mitchell 655,200"
March 10, 2003, discussion of using AlphaMAME to prevent cheating:
"The vote is here because everyone should have a say in how it is to be done. For now, we can't think of a precise way to award more bonus leaderboard points to different mame versions, because the math just gets too complicated. But it is possible (and most importantly easy for zwaxy) to give alphamame recordings a stronger stature and to award a player for using a mame that is impossible to cheat with the currently known cheating methods (slowdowns, rerecording, pausing)."
October 10, 2003, how to handle cheaters:
From p. 3:
"The problem for cheating at a level where you are fudging an inp file is where MAME is an open source project, any kind of utility could be written to fake this or that in an inp....including cutting/splicing segments together etc. from separate inps
Anyone that seriously wants to cheat that badly to take steps that tedious and extreme just to cheat will find a way to do it regardless what you do to MAME to try and make it secure.
What happened to alphamame is a perfect example of this.
In most cases if MARP just had a requirement that for anyone where cheating has been proven, they will have all of the regular mame recordings deleted. Only their alphamame and wolfmame recordings will remain with a requirement for that player to always use alphamame or wolfmame for future submissions."
This thread also has several mentions of players changing the speed to cheat, they did it to slow the game down to make it easier to play but it shows underclocking was already a common practice.
March 1, 2004, a DK thread that mentions Billy:
"I think BJW did not stay up "maximizing" points jumping over barrels, as I saw Billy M do."
March 5, 2004, a thread on editing INP files to fix desyncs:
September 24, 2004, a poll on what's considered cheating, includes save states:
"The question about save states being cheating was actually raised at the Twin Galaxies panel discussion at California Extreme 2004. My answer was that I do not consider it cheating. It is simply a quicker way to learn how to play a game. It is definitely an advantage over playing a game over and over in an arcade, although games which have a rack advance dip switch (eg, Pac Man) can be learned in a similar manner as saving state."
Summary: Discussion of INP file abuse for Donkey Kong goes back to 1999. Billy and Walter were contacted about MAME INP files on January 21 of that year. In 2003-2004 there were multiple discussions about cheating with MAME, including save states and re-recording. The Twin Galaxies panel at California Extreme 2004 was held on August 7-8 (http://www.caextreme.org/2004-show/index.html). By the time Billy's first million point DK run appeared, the idea of using MAME to put together a high score was already well documented and he and Walter were already familiar with the process.
What are the tools that would be used in this brazen attempt? I'm super interested in the mechanism by which the contested tapes were produced, so I want to understand what you're proposing as a means to accomplishing that superplay.
3) MAME did not support re-recording until 2010.
I'm sorry I don't recognize the term "re-recording" in the context of MAME. Is that referring to the playback of an INP file?
Edited to add:
https://code.google.com/archive/p/mame-rr/ says "MAME Rerecording is the rerecording version of MAME with many customized features designed to aid in recording movie input files." Is a "movie input file" the same as an INP file?
It might be of some interest for you to see what I meant by "easily edited code" in my earlier comments. Below is the routine in which some code can be commented out, nixing some file access messages. Those messages would otherwise overlap gameplay needed to be captured for a fraudulent tape.
You can quickly find this routine in usrintrf.c by searching "Save to position" or "Load from position"--the text from the targeted messages. The computer takes a lot more time to compile mame.exe for the first time than it takes to setup the compiler environment and type MAKE into a command line.
Basically, you can be recording an input file with no breaks, which is usually easy enough to program and having it working without issues Re-recording is when you are able to load a movie save state during the progress to re-record the movie from that point. This could often be an issue with the movie file not syncing afterwards, if all the emulator and in-game values aren't saved properly in the save state you made.
Many emulators could have a feature to record input files, but this alone isn't useful when it comes to TASing, as it needs the re-recording feature to work properly. Quite often, for any casual gamers/runners, this feature isn't neccesary, and it can be a real struggle to get it working properly, so it's often just ignored.
People at TASVideos made their own re-recording version of MAME: http://tasvideos.org/EmulatorResources/Mamerr.html Both this and the re-recording version of FinalBurn Alpha are being used to create Arcade TASes for the site.
Just some random stuff...
I knew that people were doing TASs using MAME-rr so that's where the 2010 date came from, but I was wrong on that because as the MARP forum shows concerns over re-recording go back much earlier. If you're able to save and load save states to build one .INP file then you don't need to edit anything in the MAME source because it won't display messages during playback.
I had never even seen the MARP forum until today, I just found it while Googling WolfMAME. Since people from there were in contact with Billy (one mentions a 2 hour phone call on .INP files) he must have been aware it was possible to put together a MAME run using save states.
So far I have not seen anything on setting the refresh rate to 60.6, I am wondering if I'll find something on that if I dig through the MAME changelog or the forums on mamedev.org. Even if that wasn't well documented at the time, anyone who had both a copy of MAME and a real arcade machine could put both side by side and realize MAME is running slightly faster, and the practice of underclocking the games via the CPU settings was already common as mentioned in the posts.
If you were trying to pass off a MAME run as direct feed I think it makes sense to actually create a direct feed to see if it's feasible, plus then you'd see that it's easier to capture the video than the audio, which is just too convenient because now you have an excuse to leave out another piece of evidence.
So you add it up, you have the knowledge of how to create an INP file with save states, you figured out to underclock the CPU to match the timing, you have the perfect excuse not to include audio, all that's left is to record to a few generations of VHS tapes to add some good old fashioned analog distortion, even if there's an anomaly you just blame it on the recording setup. It's like the perfect hoax.
Looking quickly, an INP file created with MAME 0.71 appears to be mostly a snapshot of the button states, packed in bits, at a fixed sampling rate. Also understood, perhaps wrongly, is that DKONG does not seed its pseudorandom number generator. So, from a reset ram, it should always generate the same sequence.
That's pretty interesting. I still maintain that it takes no Brainiac to cut and compile a little code, but INP stitching might have its efficiencies as well. Thanks for responding.
The non-standard refresh rate of Donkey Kong is listed in Nintendo's operation manual, see the bottom of p. 17, it lists the crystal at 61.44 Hz (I don't know why I kept thinking 60.6, I guess it was in the previous thread).
Here's a MAME config file from 2003 where someone is using that exact refresh rate for some games, although just looking at the command line I can't be sure if it's for Donkey Kong. Either way the idea of manually setting MAME refresh rates was already documented.
I came across a post on marpirc where Stephen Krogman recounts his visit to the Classic Gaming Expo in Las Vegas (1999) where he watched Mitchell play Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, and Burger Time on a MAME cabinet - I think it’s made by a company called Hanaho - he describes a PC/Home configuration and a stand up version.
In a follow-up post from John Rhodes, he describes the product as the Arcade 2000 (but upon some brief research it looks like it's more properly called an ArcadePC) - the game was played through MAME DOS 35 via Arcade@Home front end. Does anyone have familiarity with this product? I was curious if the product permitted user intervention along the lines of MAME saves states, etc.
Here's a link to Hanaho's website, November 1999:
There's definitely something I do not understand about how video refresh rate is wired to the game's performance. I've sought out some Donkey Kong PCB repair videos, but do not have a good understanding of how that purpose-built computer varies from more general purpose Z80-based computers.
Presumably the Z80A in Donkey Kong has a crystal in the MHz range, so the video refresh could just be counted off from that faster clock. I've seen references to that CPU clock crystal being 6 MHz. Some Z80As are rated at 4 MHz.
Here's the MAME 0.116 xml for DKONG.
Donkey Kong (US set 1)
Nintendo of America
That 60.606061 Hz shows up in the splash as well.
Edited to add:
Then again, the video signal could be produced by a mostly independent circuit, on its own clock. It would need to look at shared video memory, but that should not present a problem for the CPU if its not going to touch. If some EE has already torn one down on video, please let me know where I can see it.
The 61.44 Hz crystal is only for the video hardware and has nothing to do with the Z80, which has its own crystal.
One thing I remember in early MAME is that loading a state would often get the audio out of sync (maybe because they were still figuring out how best to implement multiple CPUs?) but if you aren't recording audio then it's not an issue.
Here's a link to an overview of the ArcadePC product, circa September 1999. Interestingly, the cabinet can be (or is) configured so the PC sits in plain site, a keyboard draw slides out from under the panel. This product would be a compelling platform since you're not playing MAME on a computer keyboard but are using arcade quality sticks and buttons.
That said, it's not a huge stretch to imagine someone opting for a traditional PC configuration using the company's Hot Rod control panel:
If that "35" is referring to version 0.35, that would represent a fast-moving period in MAME development, there where several version 0.35s as they used a suffixing scheme for a bit before going back to a serial number. The MAME 0.35 epoch, judging from release notes, was uneventful for DKONG, with only a conversion from SAM to WAV samples. The rom set was staid throughout and two years beyond.
Sorry--can't figure out tables in BBEdit. Oh--while I'm on a tangent, does anyone know how to turn off those automatic wiki link pop-ups for words like MAME, Donkey Kong, version and people?
There are several indications that MAME 0.35 does not have state states. I know that MAME 0.53 can do that a couple of years later, but there's no talk of it in the release notes before that point. I'll see if I can get something running to confirm one way or the other.
In terms of what MAME 0.35, here's a link for reference to the creation of a MAME .35 TG version which had some anti-cheating measures built in:
The earliest canonical version of MAME that includes save states appears to be 0.37b13 aka 0.49. It's the first binary package that creates a sta folder when unpacked. It barely runs in a Windows XP emulator, but allows the creation of a *.sta file with the usual Shift-F7, then slot select key combo. 0.37b12 aka 0.48 does not unpack a sta folder, nor respond to Shift-F7 to create a *.sta file.
Edited to add: MAME DOS 0.35 does not save state with Shift-F7 or through any other means I can discover within the program or its documentation. (I forgot I had a DOSbox install with WFW 3.11 so I can get my Icebreaker on.)
No apology necessary--I don't feel side-tracked at all. The circumstances of this dispute are a confluence of varied and long-held interests, making this topic irresistible.
Why would Billy get Carlos to try and reproduce a girder finger on original arcade hardware if he really understood why the finger girder appeared in the first place?
Did he just not know, and hold out some small hope that it was possible? Was he stalling for time to create the 'evidence package'? Was he trying to create doubt and uncertainty?
I ask because ultimately it was a very bad idea that truly helped seal his fate. It really looks like the charge of the light brigade.
And then to try and get Carlos to lie in a written statement? yeesh. How do we make sense of it all when there's so much lying.
I think it's because at the end of the day he really doesn't understand how the hardware works, that there is no way to get a 180 degree rotated screen orientation and girder finger without introducing a frame buffer at some point in the process.
To me that is one of the most ridiculous aspects to his evidence package, yeah we used this direct feed setup from 2003 to 2010 but no one can remember the equipment involved. I also like that the girder finger is evidence that Dwayne edited the tapes but then near the end they claim it can appear on original hardware... so which is it? If you're telling me the game can do that already how do you know anything has been edited?
Well said. It doesn't compute when someone has to offer several different explanations to explain a singular act - the simple task of recording DK gameplay. We went from the original explanation - "Billy used a RGB to NTSC Video Converter Board to record his footage...The TRANSLATION of RGB to NTSC changes the video’s appearance and characteristics of the signal (as in a CGA monitor) to a "more MAME looking signal output"" to a completely unrelated out-there "new" explanation - accusations that a well-known arcade game player decided to "frame" Mitchell by seeding the Internet with copies of expertly-edited copies of Mitchell's actual gameplay footage to include MAME transitions and then wait many years for a third party to discover these transitions and a new TG ownership structure to introduce a dispute review system to finally take up said footage in a dispute. All of this work in explaining the presence of MAME transitions on Mitchell's tapes was then compounded by fading memories of the set-up and the degree of people's involvement at the heart of the original explanation when only a year earlier memories were clear, emphatic, and declarative.
To return to your earlier question Benasselstine, "How do we make sense of it all when there's so much lying," all we can do is discard these "explanations" since they don't add up, and we're left with Mitchell's DK tapes that have MAME artifacts for performances that were submitted and claimed as performed on original non-modified arcade hardware.
Shout out to @robertsantellan for sharing this on Twitter; he received a link to the TG web archive that outlined the rules surrounding score submissions. While his specific interest on Twitter was to discuss the false use of copyright strikes against Dwayne Richard and his documentaries, I wanted to include it here as well for reference.
A common refrain in Mitchell's past rejoinders to the dispute review evidence was that the "real videos" that proved he didn't play MAME were sent to TG, but were lost by the organization. You can see the attempt to put TG in a bind despite the fact that it obtained copies of the 1.047 million and 1.052 million submission tapes.
At the time Mitchell submitted his 1.047 million tape to TG for verification, these were the rules in force.
The most pertinent section for this discussion relates to videos:
"What happens to my video tape that I send you?
Make a copy of your videotape to send to Twin Galaxies. Do not send Twin Galaxies your only original copy. All videotapes submitted to Twin Galaxies become the property of Twin Galaxies and will not be returned. Since Twin Galaxies is a free service, expenses are minimized by avoiding the "return-postage" charges incurred by returning submission packages."
We already saw that Mitchell brought a copy of the 1.047 million score to London for CGEUK in August 2005 despite an Evidence Package statement that RTM took the only copy directly from Funspot when it was shown there earlier in the summer. Given that these submission rules were in force since at least 2001, perhaps a second look through the Mitchell household video collection is in order to compare his personal copy with the TG submission copy for the sake of thoroughness.
Perhaps I'm going insane, but I have a recollection of an interview snippet, with Billy Mitchell, where he's explaining that he never lies. I've been trying to find that clip, but I don't think its in King of Kong. Does anyone recognize what I'm talking about, and can direct me to a source?
RTM REPLY - I was there for that event. Darren Harris (aka "Ghost" on the old TG forums) showed up and was playing side-by-side with Chris Ayra on "Ms Pac". It was amazing to see.
Back in those early events the "format" was that on the very last day the event winners were typically announced once the organizer was satisfied with the calculations. Walter then, typically, was given an opportunity to give some announcement which often included some accolades for one or more games.
I wish I could speak more as to the specifics of the Sunday announcements, though. In that era the gaming stopped at some point between 2-5pm (I forget when) and then the announcements typically took place but I personally would start the drive back to NYC with my friends and often missed these announcements either partially or entirely.
Gamer Pat Laffaye typically attended these post-event announcements in full and likely would be the best person to ask for a recollection. David Nelson as well as I believe that those two attended each of the early events.
tg copy of dk video perfect match to 2005 dk images
Just for fun....
What would the odds of two different replays showing a perfect match as above?
There is a formula for working the odds out. But when the odds are obviously over a TRILLION to ONE, you don't have to bother doing sums.
Mitchells been busted again!
I wanted to provide an update on a line of inquiry that was first aired in the re-opened (now closed) formal Jeremy Young dispute review thread. Following my post about CGEUK 2005 and the playback of Mitchell’s 1.047 million Donkey Kong tape here, TG member Oxfnord shared in this post that there was discussion at rllmukforum.com about a CGEUK 2005 DVD that contained photos and video content about the event. I followed up with members of the forum and was able to obtain a copy of some footage that was shared publicly back in 2006-2007 but wasn’t subsequently posted on YouTube or another video platform.
The footage is from the TG panel interview at CGEUK 2005 featuring Walter Day, Steve Sanders, Tony Temple, Billy Mitchell, Doris Self, Brian Kuh, Donald Hayes, Perry Rodgers, Shawn Cram. This interview is also captured in an existing YouTube video that was uploaded by gtwportal entitled “CGEUK 2005 - Part 1.” However, the footage I reviewed is from another camera and it includes the entire panel discussion, which wasn’t the case with the aforementioned YouTube video. The panel discussion is a point of historical interest, both for the commentary from top TG members but also when you consider that this appearance occurred roughly 16 months before the debut of the King of Kong, which provided a new inflection point for TG’s public image and controversy within the TG community.
The segment that I highlighted below begins with Steve Sanders who interjects as Walter winds up (ironically?) a discussion about the tracking and submission of MAME performances to TG:
[If the video starts at the beginning, please move forward to (32:56). Click image to start video]
Sanders: Walter, I know we're just about out of time, but you were to make an announcement about a video that we've got with us. To show.
Day: Do we have the ability to show it?
Day: Okay, so it turns out - [turns to Mitchell] what's your name? Oh, Billy. [quiet laughter] It turns out that Billy Mitchell has supplied us with a video tape - that's the one we're talking about? - and the video tape is of a performance on Donkey Kong. So --
Sanders: Worth the watch. It's worth the watch.
Day: Worth the watch. Yup. So essentially, you know, you hear them talking about championship level play, but you actually have to see this being done to believe it, because the level of play, the level of difficulty, is so profound, and so demanding, and so absolutely confronting and bewildering that you have to see Donkey Kong, which is the tape, being played on the level that Billy's playing it on this tape, which reaches the score --
Day: Have to watch it. You have to watch it.
In summary, the video provides useful additional context where we see that Mitchell himself orchestrated the playback of the 1.047 million performance, which in turn was afforded special attention during the panel discussion and presented as a unique opportunity for audience members to witness "championship level play" for themselves.
I'm currently following up on a couple of more questions about additional video, so I may post again on this subject but at this juncture I think we've probably identified and reviewed all of the existing video related to the playback of Mitchell's 1.047 million tape at the CGEUK 2005.
Saturday 10/19/19, Billy Mitchell will be making two kill screen attempts: one for Pac-Man and one for Donkey Kong. Both of these runs will be done on Free Play machines, Pac-Man being at Retropalooza and Donkey Kong being at Free Play Arlington.
This is no news at all. For a player capable of a 1.05M+ score on DK and a "Perfect" score on "Pacman", a kill screen "attempt" at either game is like Tiger Woods "attempting" to make par at a masters tournament. He's done a "kill screen" so many times at each title that doing so yet again is no big deal whatsoever.
Now, if he "attempted" to beat his personal best of 1.05M+ on DK or "attempted" to do a "perfect Pacman" in under 5 hours, THAT would be a big deal. Otherwise he's just doing this, and likely additional future performances at different venues, to generate build-up for some already-planned future event where he gathers all the media to announce "something big"...not unlike what he promised on MTV back in 2000.
This set of "kill screen attempts"...and likely the future ones that no doubt will take place over time...are also intended to obfuscate public opinion from "did he cheat" to "can he score that high". Once public opinion is swayed towards the latter, the former drops off into obscurity.
With the 40th anniversaries of both "Pacman" and "Donkey Kong" coming up over then next 2 years, mark my words that Billy at some point will announce a "big event" which builds on the accumulated media pop from events such as the one today, all to score the big media payday down the line...and I'm sure with Walter in tow.
If you can't get to the YouTube clip from the link above, search for "Huge Billy Mitchell News! New Donkey Kong & Pac-Man Attempts!" by YouTube poster "Free Play Arcade".
It's been an interesting journey following Mitchell's next steps after his banishment from TG, DKF, and Guinness and the removal of his world records. I think it's fair to say that his Evidence Package, while trumpeted as the basis of his exoneration, has actually created even greater confidence in the original findings. I now feel that there's a super-majority consensus in the classic arcade community that Mitchell's actions fall far short of the standards of honesty, integrity, and personal responsibility that lie at the heart of high score competition.
That said, Mitchell's preferred category of competition has always been "the most famous." And while he absolutely needed world record fame in order to have a reason for why anyone should care about his video game playing, when it comes to conventions and comicons where he's now taken his show, he may have found a workable formula where the general public is broadly unfamiliar (and perhaps unconcerned) with the details of the evidence.
On the topic of simply reaching kill screens today, Mitchell had higher aspirations at one time. In June 2000, Mitchell predicted that on a Perfect Pac-Man he would achieve a time under 3 hours 40 minutes - "and when I do that, that's it, I'm not playing again, mark my words...it'll be about 18 minutes faster than anyone else could ever do. It'll be a speed record that'll live forever." David Race holds the record today at 3 hours, 28 minutes, 49 seconds.
Refresh rates versions of MAME were available, see here "NoNameMAME", "AdvancedMame", "SmoothMame", "TVMame" ect..
Especially for running games to sync with specific refresh rates.
No Name MAME:
Earliest version I could get was 2003
Smoothmame is a win32 mame derivative, and was created for users who desire silky smooth displays in games that
use a non-standard refresh rate of 50 Hz or higher. Very simply, when using this build, all games in mame will run at exactly 60 Hz - which results in less flicker for many of them
"In normal mame, use triplebuffer and you get the smoothness without the speed change.
It really does work well without it. If your system can't handle triple buffer, thats where smoothmame really helped. It changes the speed of the game to your monitors refresh... but on many games that changes the speed by 5-10% (56.333fps -> 60fps makes the game run a bit faster. And 52fps is a HUGE difference)."
Advanceed - Mame since 2001Quote:
I'm not a "SmoothMame" user.
That being said, and for what i can tell,
'smoothmame' is build from Mame core, and like Mame itself, does _NOT_ include any special graphic drivers for running at arcade resolution.
Only the OS system resolutions are available.
Thus, for running 'smoothmame' at a given arcade resolution,
you will have to provide a third party PC to arcade graphic mode utility, and load it _before_ launching 'smoothmame'.
The only thing 'smoothmame' is able to do is, smooth scrolling in games whose original refresh rate was different from 60Hz, by tweaking the game driver to run at 60 fps. Nothing more, nothing less.
If you're a newbie, then i'll advise you to use AdvanceMame in conjunction with AdvanceMenu.
TVMAME32 is a MAME32 (not to be confused with the Win32 version of MAME) Binary that was compiled on the understanding that televisions or Arcade Monitors using Scan Converters run at fixed frequencies. If you've been MAMEing for a while, you've probably noticed that some games don't run at 60Hz natively, such as the Cave games, CPS2, early Namco, Irem, etc... These game drivers have either been sped up (if faster than 50Hz) or slowed down (if above 60Hz) so that their refresh rates now match 60Hz.
This is not a new concept as for a long time MAME's source code has been released for people to play with, and many already did modify the divers for their own personal use to run at whatever speed was most appropriate (60Hz in most cases). This build however is a MAME32 based version with those tweaks and should improve your gaming experience if you do use MAME with a TV or Arcade Monitor with a Scan Converter.
As the games refresh rates have been modified, there will be slight slowdown or speed up in modified games, but it should not be anything which drastically changes gameplay.
Later other utilities emerge thereafter like:
RATREFRESH arcade controls forum:
So the knowledge to change refreshrate for smoothness did exist very early between MAME savvy users or developers
One of my biggest bones of contention with the "Evidence Package" was a few statements made by Billy that I bore "hatred" towards Steve Wiebe...statements that I said before I considered libelous as they were without basis and were harmful to me on social media.
I stated for the past 14+ years that I made Steve Wiebe a personal and fair offer to fly out to him at my own expense with a TG-approved "Donkey Kong" boardset in-tow...which he could keep...for the purpose of watching him play as many times as he wanted to in my presence.
Below is definitive proof of not only my asking this of Steve but his response acknowledging as much. From the link below, read posts 49, 50, 51 and 61 especially.
Here are the "Highlights", and my thanks to gamer Darren Harris for spotting this thread and supplying me with the relevant info...again, everything stated below is taken from posts 49, 50, 51 and 61 of that thread, posts by both myself in the capacity of then-TG chief referee, and by Steve Wiebe posting on his own behalf.
The following are key posts from a 15 year old thread….
Response from Steve Wiebe regarding 1,006,600 point DK DVD
11-09-2004, 07:51 PM
I come in peace :D, merely stating the facts of what has become a convoluted mess to say the least.
First, I was given as a gift by a TG staff member a DVD of my million plus game. When I first submitted a score of 985,000 about a year ago, I was asked if I would like a DVD of my game or if I already had made one myself. I said, "Thanks. I'll take a DVD from you." I have this 985,000 game on DVD as well and this one also says, "Twin Galaxies Proudly Presents.."
So, I did not force anyone at TG to put on the title screen, "Twin Galaxies Proudly Presents..." It was done by Twin Galaxies by their own freewell, so I am completely absolved of any fault. The disclaimer was put on the DVD in my honesty.
However, regarding the 1,006,600 score, Twin Galaxies not only printed a DVD of the game with the "Twin Galaxies Proudly Presents..", they also publicly presented a poster at Classic Game Expo, celebrating this achievement, and wrote up a lengthy article about the accomplishment that was to be released to the public. Why would TG publicly announce the score and have a poster if they hadn't found the score legitimate? I have the banquet on video as well and a copy of the preliminary article should anyone question it. Therefore, Twin Galaxies' behavior indicates that they originally acknowledged the score as valid.
To be honest, I have sent in tape after tape for the last year and have not had a score verified. Therefore, I do not see any way TG will ever verify my million. The board was tested by an expert with DK boards, and it checked out to be a perfect, original code, Donkey Kong board. The game play as recorded on tape is that of a legitimate game. I even flew down to San Jose to show that I can play and reached the kill screen in front of TG personnel.
I wish to have friendly relations with Twin Galaxies and have no ill will against anyone at TG. I just have to speak the truth in order to defend myself when attacked. I just thought that I could kindly offer a copy of the game at a reasonable price to those interested in Donkey Kong. In consideration of TG, I pledge to no longer sell the version supplied to me AS A GIFT by TG.
Please E-mail me with any questions regarding this situation since there is more truth to be told.
Thanks for your ear and I apologize for the lengthy posting.
A Few Replies
11-09-2004, 08:56 PM
I will reply to you and use the term "3rd party individual" occassionally to refer to a certain someone that has involved himself to a certain extent in the verification process, rather than mention this person by name.
ISSUE ONE - your game was not yet TG-verified, as you know. The matter of a TG official giving you a good faith gift, as it was, with TG Presents was intended for your personal enjoyment and as a reward for your incredible still-to-be-verified accomplishment. This was not made with the intent of potential resale purposes.
ISSUE TWO - originally, you submitted a 947.2K score on DK last year, which I personally verified. At the time, this score was received much later than your 1M "DKJr" score, also verified by me. At the time, no one at TG had any prior knowledge of a "Double Donkey Kong" conversion kit.
Through sheer happenstance, a long-time TG gamer had discovered that your DK score was achieved on such a kit...after the story was released. How very nice...a huge egg on TG's face in the process.
TG pursued this with one of the developers of the kit which is based on the DKJr boardset. Technically, all it really allows is the ability to play both titles using the DKJr sound set, and also allows for stage skipping. However, standard TG policy which may not have been known to you at the time was that we do not co-mingle platforms...period.
The score was to be reclassified, at the time. And as DKJr was also believed to be conversion, the same position was taken on that title. Again, this was the initial decision, and no action was taken since as the matter is still under discussion.
ISSUE THREE - On or about January of this year, I received a call from you regarding the DK score and potential reclass. We discussed the TG position on the double DK kit. You had then expressed interest in seeking out a classic DK set to make it right, and that's where we left off.
Approx early April you E-MAILed me to inform of a 985K score, crushing your previous record. That was awesome. I informed Bill and Walter, and you did send it a tape. A story was crafted, and not yet sent as we wanted to do a double check, just to be sure, as another egg on our face we did not need.
Not too long after that, specifically 6/30, you announced an incredible 999.5K score, just missing 1M. Four days later, the 1.006M was announced. The tape was quickly sent in...I had not even finished watching the 999.5K tape article so started the new one.
The 1.006M article was sent to you for approval...all 40 pages of it inclusive of an additional bit of information as you well know by now, and which I will not mention here just yet.
The tape was sent to our expert for approval, and it was thisclose to final verification, but something was not quite right. Again, to avoid another egg on our face, we waited just a bit more for additional information to come. And it did.
ISSUE FOUR - Based on new information, largely due to the involvement of a 3rd party individual in securing you a boardset, and for technical reasons discovered due to the involvement of another 3rd party individual, we decided to be prudent and to explore these new lines of investigation before us.
We were actually less than 48 hours from going public with the story, which was not done thus the score is not TG verified.
Part of the final verification included the unusual request to have the boardset analyzed by our recognized expert in the hobby. The problem is, we no longer could.
You had called me a few Saturdays ago to discuss your 1.006M game. At the time, you had already been sent a few weeks back the draft of the article to hit worldwide. I discussed the involvement of the 3rd party individual and how it ultimately tampered with the verification process. The "test environment", if you will, was now clouded due to the sequence of events and most importantly the current location of the board.
To spell it out bluntly in medical terms, it's as if you had provided a blood supply for testing, then an anomoly is found, and as the hospital tries to go back to the sample for further tests, it finds that the sample is no longer present. A new sample may not be possible as the labratory experiment has been compromised, and new testing must begin.
Not coincidentally, a day before you called, I received another call from that 3rd party individual. Then, when you called, some of what I told that person came out in our conversation. Obviously the two of you "chatted" in the interrim. That aside, I arrived at a solution which it seemed to me that you appreciated. I suggested that I personally, at my own expense, fly to your area and spend the day there watching you play on a boardset that we are 100% certain is TG verified. This way, the results would be golden.
One day later and guess what is on Ebay but your DVD.
ISSUE FIVE - It is obvious that a "backdoor" approach to gain notoriety, maybe even without verification, is achieved by such a public sale of this item/product. This is not the path I would have taken, to be frank.
Over thirty five hours of my personal time were spent watching the action as I crafted my article and had to rewatch scene after scene to get every possible and trackable detail, so no small effort was made on your behalf to create a major news story announcing the feat.
I will not go into full details of exactly what was to be announced in totality, but suffice it to say that a very, very large audience would have been informed had the full story been released on schedule.
Walter Day, I believe, even spoke with you personally on the matter. Some inconsistencies arose over time and discussions especially relating to the involvement of the 3rd party individual and related transactions.
Prudence dictated that we wait until final verification could be made without uncertainity. That may no longer be possible with the path that the board used has taken since then. And again I stress, these unusual steps are being taken due to, largely, (A) the enormity of the historical importance of such a performance if legitimate, (B) prior lack of disclosure on the "Double D" kit used, and your re-acquitision of it during the time period of 2004.
Some good has come out of this, inclusive of TG consultants contemplating a revamp of our arcade submission protocols, to protect the integrity of the TG scoreboard and gaming community, and quite honestly, to prevent another such occurrance. involving a questionable boardset.
Steve, after all is said and done, my personal offer still stands... I will, at my own personal expense, fly out to Washington to watch you play on a TG approved boardset. But until we can work out together, if possible, how to achieve final verification on the 1.006M score...and court of public opinion cannot be used as part of the verification process, unfortunately...we have few options left open to us, I am truly sorry to say.
As always, please feel free to call me to discuss. My number at work is (212) 366-3036 and the best time to reach me is after 6:00pm eastern standard time. Hy home number is private and is not disclosed in a public forum, but I offer you the chance to call me at home on weekends as well.
Regrettably I will be unavailable from 11/13-11/21 inclusive, but can work with you either before or after and we can work out what can be done.
One More for Steve
11-09-2004, 09:26 PM
Your E-MAIL bounced back, so here is what I had to send.
Based on recent discussion on the forums, it is apparent that one of the best ways to handle things is for you to consider the last offer I made to you in our most recent conversation. All discussion aside, no one wants this matter to be put to rest that either of us, and the best way to handle, I believe, now that the board set has "travelled", is for a personal verification by a senior TG official.
My proposal is simple.
At my own personal expense, I will arrange to fly out to your home area at a weekend day that we can agree upon, with the intent of watching you play "Donkey Kong" as many times as you feel like.
I will bring in tow a TG-approved boardset in-hand that we will arrange to obtain, purchase and have verified by a recognized expert in the field.
Upon completion, that boardset can be given to you as a gift of Twin Galaxies. It is the least we can do assuming you no longer have one, and I will personally absorb that expense as well.
This is in the interests of yourself, the policies of Twin Galaxies, and to the entire gaming community.
No gamer in their right mind would want to know that such an incredible feat might not be at the right setting, in any way shape or form. Honesty and the truth is the core of Twin Galaxies values. The gaming community need not know every aspect of what has transpired...it is neither their business nor should it ever be. However, the issue of the existance of a 1.006M score is now public, and TG is obligated to define it's position clearly why such an incredible achievement has not been mentioned publicly or even on our own site's public sections.
Our overall position is simple. The score has been submitted to TG, and was watched but not yet finished with the verification process due to technical reasons. There is no vindictiveness in this position. It is a matter of fact, and one that I am hoping my solution will allow to become moot should you by chance happen to equal or better yet tie your previous mark.
So, the offer I extend once again, and without prejudice. You may contact me at either my work or home numbers. Know that I am unavailable from Nov13-21 inclusive, so if you can reach me within the next 2-3 days, wonderful. If not, then after November 21st.
As a gamer, and a very talented one, it was a distinct pleasure watching your tapes, and to be the person at TG that you contacted with your achievement announcement. This is what I look forward to as a member of TG. And although I spent approx 35-40 hours crafting the unreleased article, I consider this much more than time well spent on my part. Therefore, as a fellow gamer, nothing would please me more than to do whatever I can to help you get a verified performance registered with TG.
Although you are legally free to work with whatever 3rd party sources you may choose to interract with, you know my position on your involvement with one in particular. Ultimately, the path you take from this point going forward is your own.
The choice is yours, Steve. Let me know if you choose the path that will assist you with no strings attached, or if you wish to continue dealing with that 3rd party individual. Agaim the choice is yours.
Robert T Mruczek
Twin Galaxies - Editor and Chief referee
Star Wars classic arcade marathon champion
Just to clear things up, I am definitely willing to have Robert come out and view my performance and appreciate his generous offer. I'll call you tomorrow Robert.
For the record, my board is a legitimate board, bought from a legitimate vendor, and was tested as perfect by this vendor. Doesn't the vendor have a right to check out the board first as a courtesy to them? After all, their reputation is at stake as well, and they might want to test it before a different person tests it. Seems reasonable to me. At this moment, the board is in the vendor's hands and has not touched this 3rd party's hands. I have wanted to ship the board to TG's tester and they will have nothing to do with it. The whole thing is fruitless anyway because testing a board after a game is played proves diddly. I've said it before and I'll say it again, how does anybody know that the board in question is the actual board that I achieved the million unless they trust me in saying it is? I could have said that the board I used was no longer in my possession and no one could have argued against it. If TG doesn't trust that the board in question is at the vendor's place and is untampered, then why should they trust me when I say that the board in question is THE BOARD? Bottom line, there's no way of proving it, so I guess the only way to verify scores for any title, not just Donkey Kong, should be live. I believe that all ROM's can be tampered with to make the game play easier, so it stands to reason that no games should be verified unless witnessed by a ref and the board has been deemed legit through testing. I just hope that whoever claims the Donkey Kong title has to undergo this same process. I am by far one of the most easy guys to get along with, you can ask those who have met me, and for me to say that I am frustrated has merit. I've done everything TG has asked and am willing to ship THE BOARD to their tester right now. I flew down to San Jose with money (I did not have) to show my skills at their request. I was told over the phone that if I performed well, then the TG personnel would decide my score's fate. In 5 games, I reached the kill screen and showed I could play the game. What else could I have done to prove myself. If I was a fraud, would I have went down to San Jose? There was no mention of board testing at this time and I thought my score would stand since I did what TG asked. But then a mandatory board test was called to my surprise. All I ask is that the verification process be made clear up front and not made up as she goes. No one can expect to play any sporting game and be subject to shifting rules while the competitors are exempt from these rules. TG has been viewing several tapes of mine for almost a year now and could have said that a PCB test was mandatory long ago so that the appropriate steps could be taken. I respect what TG does and know it's a thankless job, but I think that this situation could have been handled better by TG as well. I am not trying to hide from any verification, I just want any competitor to have a board test as well, even if the board is believed valid. Components on a board can break unnoticed and alter play. Isn't that only fair?
I have accepted the fact that TG has dismissed my score and I will probably have to replay, so the above is just to shed light on what transpired. People need to hear both sides of the story.
thx, threads like this explain so much. You can really read steve's frustration. Its amazing how the old tg had no governance and just based on whim of the day changed the rules to get the results they wanted.
This does alot to explain so many fake scores getting in as well as so many real scores and even entire tracks being removed
The contents of that entire back-and-forth discussion as well as additional gamer input are unedited, so the sequence is preserved.
At that time, for the benefit of those who did not remember, Steve had already achieved his 1M submission on VHS but the score had not yet been approved by TG. While it was a collective effort, I want to stress that the major point of contention had to do with the discovery of Shildt's involvement with the boards AND, on top of that, pressure from Billy not to have the scores accepted because, and I quote, TG already had egg on its face from the 947K submission which was found to be DDK.
Truth be told...had that discovery by Kuh/Rodgers not been made, Steve's 1M score would have been recognized as the accompanying article had already been written prior to that...in addition to his 999.5K which had pre-dated that submission by a matter of days. The only other nay-saying was coming from Billy, and that whole "gummy substance" thing was basically fed to me BY Billy, Kuh and I cannot remember if Chris was part of that discussion, but definitely the other two, but Walter definitely was a deciding factor here as I was in no position to dictate TG policy on such a unique situation without fellow Board of Director approval including the founder.
damn ok i made it through that thread. I can verify almost nothing was left out. The thread fairly quickly turns into discussions about copyright and banned tactics and the banned tactics turn into a discussion about hypothetic mspacman glitches, and then in depth debate about rng of mspacman
there were a couple comments pretty much just saying more of what rtm listed. the only other comment i saw of interest -- which was largely ignored -- was firebrandx questioning how come often times arcade boards with PROVEN modifications were allowed as long as there was no known effect on gameplay (and i'll throw in that some with known effcect on gameplay were also allowed) yet for some reason steve's game where noone can find any difference in game play was excluded. I think this is very valid, cause often times with opinion things, two different points of view are equally valid, but jumping back and forth shows a bias. We see a real bias in how steve was treated, apparently though the bias wasnt even about helping billy or hurting steve so much as it was about hating anything roy related even in the slightest.
not wanna risk a gummy substance? i get it. by why ignore firebrandx very very relevant question on the point about how come all the other cases of modified boards that get a pass?
I also saw some evidence the original thread was edited as people quote and argue about things that are no longer there so i'm not sure if that affects anything.
RTM REPLY - I can't remember the exact date, or even whether this happened while I was still part of TG or not, but someone crafted a DK-specific set of rules which contained a multi-step process for submission that was so convoluted that I was unsure if anyone would be submitting further taped DK performances at that point.
Could have been back when either Patterson, Blaine or Dave was running things after I left, I just forget which.
Here are the DK-specific rules...I definitely did not write these...
RTM REPLY - this one I will reply to. If all you see here is a bias then that outlook itself IS a bias.
No other gamer in TG history was offered the possibility of a TG staffer flying out to verify performances...with a free board-set in tow, no less...at no expense to the gamer. And just how does writing a 30+ page article celebrating a performance, before that Shildt revelation, show a "bias" ? No other gamer in TG history had such an article crafted to showcase what they had done.
Cherry-picking inconsistencies in validations is all-too-easy, especially from the first phase of TG (pre-1997) which was literally "The Wild West". I won't even get into the days of TG accepting photographs, or how performances such as Chris Ayra's "Head On" score of 300K made it into the TG database when it was witness by Billy, a non-TG referee, or a number of other issues from TG's past.
Steve's original 947K score on a DDK boardset was approved without even knowing that a DDK boardset existed. Several Funspot boards were "fixed" by Mark Spaeth years back by inserting a different clock crystal than ACAM had hoped that he would have used, and who knows how many games that encompassed never mind TG-submitted scores.
The issue can be debated ad-nauseum...nothing will ever be solved considering these events, decisions, omissions, etc, all occurred anywhere from 10-38 years ago. If no one will ever move forward from these then TG should just dump lock-stock-and-barrel every single score "verified" from 2013 and prior. That would be a colossally dumb*ss thing to do, but some gamers will never feel comfortable otherwise.
But seeing "bias"...if that is ALL that you see then that is quite the myopic PoV.
however, now that we're talking roy and steve, do you remember this
im trying to verify, but sadly the article it links i cant find. basically it says roy admitted to helping steve cheat. pretty bold claim. i'm trying to figure out if thats true (true that roy made that accusation, not true that steve cheated. obviously for judging steve its hearsay, but for judging roy is a big deal), if so roy deserves what he gets. He was right about alot and mistreated about a lot, but this would really overshadow all that. however if roy never said that then the tg writer holds some responsiblity, the fact that its citing is a source is no excuse if the source was known to be unreliable, and this tg post would show further tg bias against both
unrelated to my spat here with rtm and back to all the billy stuff, i was looking at the forums about kok. i saw one thread was to handle why billy's tape was at funspot. all the other answers, had a spin we can argue, but if you want to give walter/billy any benefit of the doubt the answers could hold up, although they are kinda convenient. i saw his video tape at funspot had an answer though and thought "this will be good, i HAVE to see how they spin this"
well looks like all the time in the world couldnt explain that one
also, datagod as much as i enjoy looking at peoples browsers tabs, the pleasant tg ads i get are absolutley not from my search history. however my search history going forward may be based on my tg ads wink wink
It appears that Walter was initially steering people towards the blog post (possibly he was the author?) citing the article, but TG members rebelled. Walter ultimately changed tact, writing, "This link has been removed until Brice Richards comes to the forefront and explains his interview. We have tried to contact the writer through many different avenues, but to no avail. It is understood that the interview may well be fabricated and can't be relied upon."
so, as the evener correclty points out, this was nothing but a subject change. most things were dealt with "new info coming" and the new info didnt really adress any point so much as it was to demonize roy. further, there was the rebellion the evener mentions, and get this. if you get the link of the article, apparently, in full context it was clear to all readers the author was full of it. even rtm, a first, is in the awkward position of defending roy against the writers chargers roy is a racist. So how does walter respond? he leaves his excerpt that i posted with quotes, but removes the lnk to the article itself!!!! With the link of the article itself removed its no longer so obvous what a nut job wrote it, yet walter still gets to make roy look bad. shameful. Leaving up quotes he knew to be suspect, and removing peoples chance to see the source.
damn, the TG plot and hatred against roy really knew no bounds. If walter was willing to go to these lengths, then roy's claim he was framed for the other stuff they accuse him of makes me all the more inclined to believe it.
Getting harder to respond to this thread for some reason...takes a LONG time for the ability to come up, not sure why.
On to Roy...
I recall something about Roy being called a racist and I do remember that a lot of TG'ers, self included, quickly pounced on that one. Roy may have been (and still is) a lot of things, but a racist was never one of them.
As for TG's "hatred" towards Roy, I would not use that word. Extreme, unparalleled annoyance would be more like it. There's a veritable laundry list of offenses spanning the past 34 years that I am sick and tired of having to recap for those who were not here from the beginning of his nonsense from TG being online never mind his stunts from pre-1997.
Roy has threatened TG staffers, pestered them at both home and the workplace, at places where they vacation, posted multiple libelous videos and slanderous statements about a number of people...I won't even go into his most egregious stunts including how he contacted the president of New Line, or Chris Ayra at the supermarket chain where he worked, or Ric Fothergill while he was convalescing in Canada. Then the "legal" missives" which if they were not so laughable would have cost certain TG staffers thousands of dollars in legal fees if they were actually professionally launched. And then there were the death threats.
Nope...not "hatred"...it is annoyance on a whole different scale compared to nearly any other gamer over the decades, including Rudy.
His lies were boundless, including quite a few recent ones over the past few years where he claimed that I was the secret owner of TG.
So don't start bashing TG officials for their handling of Roy...he's lucky he wasn't hauled off to prison for the stunts that he pulled.
I read a good portion of that link posted above to an old TG thread. It's important to note the timing of when that thread was created...well before the point that it was clear that KoK wasn't merely a film product negative towards Billy but that it was a concerted effort by Seth, Ed, Steve, Billy, Steve S AND Walter all along thus some of the ideology found early in that thread did change over time.
For those who do not know, Roy had stated on multiple occasions for several years that he wanted to "blow one past TG", and the DDK boardset was the first indication that he may have succeeded once it was brought to TG's attention. Thus his involvement with the 1.049M submission once discovered by Kuh/Rodgers was treated with extreme caution from that point on. All of this was already explained in multiple threads over the years.
I make absolutely no apologies now nor ever for how TG both before my tenure, during and after treated Roy, nor how I personally handled Roy on the forum and in personal dealings with him. After spending...nay, wasting...a good 300+ hours on Roy and Roy-issues from 2001 and onward, included but not limited to his attempts to contact me at work several years back and nearly getting me fired in the process (Jace had to help me put a stop to that BS as it was out of control), Roy belongs behind bars, not "apologized to" for how he was "treated".
For those interested, Darren Harris is still active on KLOV forums. Unless he's been banned again for the millionth time.
For those interested in the MS Pac RNG that claims that the fruits might be controllable, forget it. They aren't.
RTM REPLY - "biased" against you ? Any sane person would be. Let's see...you created a score challenge against one of my 2600 scores purely for purposes of vendetta and you have blasted me incessantly on the TG forum dating back to when you did not like my contributing to certain posts, ans on and on...so if you want to call it bias, go right ahead...not stopping you there.
Your'e going back to a decision on Atari 2600 "Dodge'Em" to remove the score category for the game 1B pattern...really ? A "challenge" that could be completed while playing while blindfolded and THAT'S important to you to cite ? Get over it...that's as bad as having a "world record" on "Word Zapper" for the 2600 which was another category rightfully removed.
As for cited sources and links that no longer work...a lot of the older TG links may simply not have ported over properly into the new database. Not every forum thread was preserved and there were well over a thousand and up over the years. Can't help you if a cited link is busted...blame the transition team if you want but they did a decent job at preserving a good number of old threads.
Not sure why you hold Shildt in such high regards...he deserves to be incarcerated for his actions over the years, many of which crossed state lines. If you wish to idolize someone who launched death threats against a TG staffer (at the time it was Billy) then by all means...goes more towards your credibility and character than to Roy's.
most of your stuff, i'll take your word for and file under "two wrongs dont make a right"
"So don't start bashing TG officials for their handling of Roy...he's lucky he wasn't hauled off to prison for the stunts that he pulled."
sorry bro, but i stand by my bash -- and youll notice i did actually acknowledge you were willing to stick up for roy on that one -- so the bash actually doesnt apply to you for once. well until you change your tone here and now defend tg even in that case.
ill let the justice system decide if he belongs in jail, thats a strong claim though and really shows how you feel about him. I didnt think TG was supposed to judge scores based on the person though and rather the score. There are very much scores ofpeople who have beein in prison, and belonged in prison, but their scores stayed because belong in prison doesnt make it for two to also commit a wrong.
so this one is at walter, not you -- you should like that you love bashing walter. though your defense here and other places fine, i'll lump you in if you want.
For walter to share an article that was clearly false, and to keep out of context quotes up even after realizing that, and to do so for no other reason than to distract from the questions about billy (and quetions about you) and turning it all on roy means walter/tg owes not just roy, but everyone he was trying to hoodwink an apology
I remember when we disagreed cause you didnt read the rules and started bashing everyone for allowing a game genie even though the rules clealry said it was allowed on the track. tried to get jace to ban me even. all because i can read rules and you dont. you couldve simply reread the rules but chose to ridiculously argue and escalate over the rules, i learned pretty early on just how emotionally unstable and erratic you are if simply pointing you to what the rules actually say make you so crazy.
if you can do dodge 'em blind folded how come you cant even do it without a blind fold?
"As for cited sources and links that no longer work...a lot of the older TG links may simply not have ported over properly into the new database." wrong again. more quick to reply and slow to read. nope, it was expliclty removed by walter when people complained. which was the worst possible response. people complained how unfair it was, so he dealt with it by removing the context that proved it unfair yet left everything else.
i wouldnt say i idolize roy, i'm just saying alot of his complaints years later turned out to be true. and i see how underhanded and biased and provably wrong tg was in dealing with him. so when you see proof of how tg treated him and how tg didnt really give a rats ass about scoreboard integrity, yeah it makes me question what else they did wrong or whatever scores they removed just to stick it to roy.you keep saying he belong in jail, but why should i believe people who are so biased that they'll share fake posts and try to remove scores just because roy touched the board it was played on?
thx for at least opening up by admiting you were biased. you misspelled "insane" as "sane" though.
oh by the way, thx for displaying your attitude here and showing that one thing kok at least captured correctly was your attitude towards roy. your responses to this day do alot to explain exactly how so many bad scores got in the database and so many good ones removed under your "watch" if you can call that watching
RTM REPLY - actually I simply posted threads from 14+ years ago with no "attitude"...you were the one who started with the unneeded commentaries.
"KoK" captured nothing of my attitude towards Roy...if you actually listened to it and watched it I was only in the film for not even 3 minutes and only BARELY discussed matters that would have involved him...I could probably count that in terms of single digit seconds. If you think that adequately "captured" an attitude towards Roy, THAT'S inherent bias...and reading between lines which are not even there.
Now, you said "so many" bad scores in the database...and "good ones" removed".
Here's your chance "D'ohflake"...let's see how many of them you can list for each one of these statuses.
The "good ones" removed...only a few removed scores were put back that I remember, including David Palmer's "Star Wars" TGTS score and Paul Dean's "Spyhunter" score. Most removed were done so with good reason. I gave an interview on one of Richie's old Podcasts and discussed close to twenty of these high-profile removals and all but a scant few were warranted. I exclude Roy's TGTS claim as to date he has yet to prove he actually did it in the first place, and his dip switch setting argument never came into being until after 2005, 20 years after the score claim, and ONLY because a former TG staffer posted the wrong settings into the TG database.
As for "bad scores", there were I am sure a number that should never have been accepted. It's easy to do the backseat driving in the here and now when there were 10,000+ scores coming in annually and only about 4-5 active referees back then were responsible for them.I'm not going to stand by and said things were mistake-free back then. They were not. And pre-2001 where photographs were accepted was far worse. All I will say is that over a period of 5-1/2 years I watched 20,000+ performances and of those, based on the ones entered into the database as either first-timer scores by the person for a variation or scores that beat their previous, the overwhelming majority were good. Again, I'm not going to say things were perfect...but they were not the travesty that you seem hellbent on painting it as either.
That stated, YOU try to do what we did back then while simultaneously maintaining a job. Two words...good luck.
heck, i even agreed that it did demonstrate it wasnt about you hating steve. but you were the one that felt the need to argue since apparently you hate roy so much, you couldnt stand to even see my fault tg and opted to take roy's side, you had to rush to the defense of anyone bashing roy
i noticed now that tgsap is up, your cred is pretty low, you complained pretty loudly to jace for letting your cred go down and calling you a "passive voter" when your passive voting dinged you and he refused to reverse the ding. why dont YOU try doing what WE do and actually watch what you adjudicate and adjudciate it correctly, instead of getting angry at jace that your passive adjudicating style doesnt work anymore.
but i tell you what, you're right, i couldnt do what you did, so maybe i should admit that. i cant remove good scores, i cant defend bad ones. i can cop out and say i dont want that power, but fact is even if i did want it i'd have no idea how to get it. so you got me, i could never ever pull off the corrupton you did no matter how hard i might try. sick burn you got on me there.
you know what else not even ROY could do? Roy couldnt be so offensive and dangerous to tg as to get the punishment you got for your stunts. why jace ever unbanned you is beyond me considering you were given the harshest ban in history -- harsher punishment that the big bad roy got -- for a reason
seroiulsy man, this didnt even start as me hitting you. you could spin it as me hitting walter and billy if you like. but the invovlement of the hatred of roy is VERY germaine to understanding what went down. your need to turn this into a pissing match just shows how strong that hate is and that you're still a problem to this day
back to roy (and this part doesnt hurt rtm unless he wants to somehow make new comments here about it that do reflect on him), even in 2010 roy accused billy of doing his score live in an small unknown event so that sure people would say they saw it, but without criticis eyes, he could later swap in a direct feed tape and claim it was the live one.
think about that, yes yes, official stance is just "billy did not play on official umodified machine". but tg has to be cautious and leave it at the absolute provable. most people that think billy cheated think he did it on mame and then just said he did it live. i find it interesting roy was making simliar accusations back in 2010.
just a crazy guy making stuff up wouldnt have been able to get so lucky. so this tells me both that the leadership shouldve/couldve/did? know, and it also shows the real reason to silence roy
now i wont provide the link directly as i dont want the video playing on my comment, but do a google search on"kooks of kong" if you want to see whati'm talking about. look i never said roy embodied all i want to be, just said he was right. his video starts off with some pretty sexually explicit stuff, so you need to skip to second half. he sure made it easy to be discredited due to his uncouth ways, but uncouth or not he was right, and considering old tg didnt have the no sexual predators rule that the new tg has, dont tell me he was banned for being uncouth.
Two of my favourite quotes at KLOV about Shildt's video:
"Watch all of it. ALL OF IT. GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!"
"He's got a screw lose but he definitely has a valid point."
The video is vintage Shildt, but the truly shocking part comes when he sits down to comment on the launch of the International Video Game Hall of Fame (IVGHOF) in Ottumwa, Iowa. Among its inaugural group of inductees is Billy Mitchell. When I heard Shildt lay out his predication for Mitchell at IVGHOF in his video, my jaw dropped and I had to recheck the upload date multiple times.
The video was uploaded on 26 July 2010. This date is important for what Shildt says next, which is eerily prophetic.
Recall that Mitchell claimed he achieved a new world record on Donkey Kong AND Donkey Kong Junior on the same day while at Boomer's arcade, which was 30 July 2010. Then Mitchell goes on to announce his new "world record" on DK and DK Junior at the IVGHOF on 7 August 2010.
What that means is Shildt uploaded his comments four days before Mitchell visited Boomer's, and 12 days before Mitchell's WR announcement.
Roy Shildt: "Billy Mitchell’s former world record Donkey Kong score of 1,050,200 points on July 2007 is a sham. It’s been reported as being filmed by direct feed, not of Billy playing the game, and under that criteria, it is an invalid score. In July 2007, Billy played that score at an out of the way Broker convention as a smokescreen so he couldn’t be scrutinized, and we must assume that Billy’s world record score was actually played at another time and place and was somehow switched for what Billy played that day - if he played at all.
Billy’s induction to the International Video Game Hall of Fame he set up with his friends in Ottumwa Iowa this August 6 through 8th is also a sham, not to imply that the whole Hall of Fame is a sham. And here’s the proof. Right now, Billy Mitchell doesn’t have the world record Donkey Kong score but “Billy has a plan” like he always does - and here it is: Between now and August 7, he’ll probably reclaim the Donkey Kong world record with some bullcrap scenario and then on August 7th he’ll make sure that a Donkey Kong machine is not there, and if there is one, he’ll come up with some lame excuse for not playing it - and if he doesn’t play, he’d better prove that his former world record is not a direct feed."
In reference to the "bullcrap scenario," I don't know if Shildt anticipated another direct feed, and he certainly didn't anticipate Robert Childs dropping staged Boomer videos the same day, but I think it's same to assume they would fit the criteria of said scenario. And although Shildt is unsure about the direct feed of the 1.05 million score, TG uploaded the last few minutes of Mitchell's 1.05 million score in 2009 on YouTube as part of the Settle it On the Screen channel and acknowledged in the description it was direct feed.
As we know, Shildt attended the IVGHOF event in August 2010, and interviewed Todd Rogers about Mitchell's record at Boomer's which occurred a week earlier. Thanks to his interview, Shildt captured Rogers claiming that the world record event came together at the last moment and that the original reason to visit Boomer's was just so the two of them could horse around on DK machines playing blindfolded, and only after Rogers goaded Mitchell to try a serious game on DK did he decide to play seriously, which flatly and completely contradicts the witnesses statements of Mitchell and other Boomer personnel in his Evidence Package. This probably explains why the package had a witness statement from Rogers for the 1.05 million score at the Mortgage broker's convention and NOT for his "live verification" of the Boomer's score.
RTM REPLY - I'd like to add to that...when I posted the links to the old forum exchanges with Wiebe, the "take-away" should have been, as I had indicated, that proof had been found to support that Wiebe was indeed given a publicly-stated opportunity for a TG staffer to visit him at no expense and that based on his gameplay alone, no recording even necessary, his best game score would be honoured...plus he would keep the board. That was the purpose of my post...period.
You seem to have isolated the negatives from that old TG thread and focused instead on the Roy-element which, at this point is a done deal. Extreme caution was the result once his involvement was discovered...period. And that's fine...your ending every post with Roy being "Right" is indicative of your stance on such matters even in light of his 34 year history of shenanigans versus TG many of which are criminal in scope.
i actualy acknowledged your point was correct but also wanted the other points included here as well. it is you who pick and choose and only want a few points while acusing me of picking and choosing since i actually look it all including the parts you dont like.
and there you go still tryig to bring roy's alleged criminal histroy into deflect. did anyone else have their criminal histroy -- proven criminal history mind you, not just alleged -- affect their scores? why only with roy? i'd really like to hear how roy claiming to be the daddy of madonna's baby or other nonsense from him in anyway means the boards he touched must be tainted despite the gameplay being fine.
also, while you continue to point to roy's antics -- which some of them i can acnowlwedge, but others i have my doubts -- you do nothing to explain how he could've see so easily billy was cheating.
Billys pattern was SO RIDICULOUSLY transparent that it takes O HINDSIGHT it was foresight. it was such a pattern roy could predict it in advance. so how could crazy roy see something in advance that the tg refs couldnt even see even after the fact, even after it was brought to their attention?
Why were proven criminals welcomed in, but a suspected criminal who called out billy and was right kept out? drop your nonsense about it being his crimes, if that was true tg wouldnt have awarded a convicted sex offender award and you wouldnt have sent him so many letters in prison that the prison itself told you to limit it a little. Face it, TG doesnt (and i agree shouldnt) investigate crimes or enforce laws. The treatment of roy wasnt about his shenanigans, the treatment of roy was because he was right and needed to be silenced
its called a "signature" i dont actually end my posts with it. its automated and applied to even old posts from before the signature. if i change my signature then even in uneditable threads it will be changed
come on man, signatures like this are very common. how can you not even know the basics of turning on a computer. take some computer literacy classes already, learn something about technology. i'm amazed you even knew how to work a vcr, then again considering the scores you verified maybe you never quite did learn how to work the vcr after all lol
RTM REPLY - hopeless arguing with you. If you want to seek out the negatives in every single post and advance your agenda go right ahead...keep up with the tunnel-vision, knock yourself out.
No one is trying to "control" conversations...but you most certainly don't know how to HAVE conversations...you seek out adversity at every opportunity.
Keep dredging up the old nonsense such as "rounding scores" from that one single thread which, a few posts later in that thread I retracted those words. Same old basis for conjecture.
Believe what you want about Steve and Roy...your opinions are obviously set in stone.
Back to my original posts these were 14+ year old threads which was the first concrete evidence to support some earlier statements made, but also to refute a comment made in the Billy Mitchell "Evidence Package", the main purpose of this thread. YOU decided to make comments about your anti-old TG agenda. Well done, you succeeded.
the rounding, shouldnt never even been one thread, and it was a deep argument, that you still owe me an apology for for bashing me for saying we shouldnt round. and it actually wanst even truly just one since even after you backed down -- only because it was proven the score was wrong for other reaons -- you shortly there after defended other scores with impossible digits yet again going back to the idea that impossible digits dont matter. so no, you never backed off the stance that impossle digits are "picking nits" and that we should just let the fake scores stand
you admit you only want one aspect focused on, you fault for showing full context and accuse me of tunnel vision? i cant really accuse you of tunnel vision thouh, cause you see all this, you just try to hide it from others. you have failed miserably in doing so, your run of hiding the truth is over.
you dig up the old thread, and you think its fine for your agenda, i point out full context of the same thread and i'm awful for dredging up what you dreged up. you definitely get the award for biggest hypocrite of millenia
we do both agree some concrete proof is in that thread though. too bad the funny thing about the truth is, you cant just take the parts you like.
still waiting for you do a game of dodge 'em without a blindfold since apparently you think its easy with one.
Another small (strike that, large) update on the CGE UK 2005 footage and related news. I had a chance to review the DVD that was authored by Robert Hazelby, which features video from different aspects of the gathering. In addition to the panel footage discussed previously, it includes a second discussant panel (not TG-related), footage of the arcade area, the retro console area downstairs, and an awards ceremony led by Walter Day. The DVD features interesting content and is worth a watch - I'll look to set up a download link soon for those interested (it's roughly a 4GB download). From my examination, there isn't anything new found on the DVD that speaks further to the 1.047 million playback at the event. Something that caught my eye was a poster that Day was handing out to award winners - it's a poster entitled "Billy Mitchell: Live at the CGE UK - August 13, 2005"
There's a LOT of text on that poster, so I'm curious how Mitchell was selling himself to an audience that generally didn't know who he was, particularly the months before the King of Kong was released. If anyone has a copy, I'm be grateful if you could upload a copy, or summarize the text here for the curious, especially if it references Donkey Kong in any way.
As a related example, check out this photo of the TG table with the Pac-Man themed advert about "Searching for the world's most famous video game player, Billy Mitchell."
Even at the panel, Day went out of his way to single out Mitchell for introduction as the world's most famous video game player. I haven't seen too many examples where famous people promote themselves as famous people. Of course, there are areas of life like a given sport where a group of individuals stand out as "famous." But usually that fame is spread by word of mouth by friends, the media, or something you become sensitive to yourself if you become part of that sport community - those who are known and stand out. Besides outbursts of "I'm the greatest in the world" by some well-known sports figures, the constant drumbeat of promoting ones generic "fame" rather than a specific feat seems unusual.
Getting back to the 1.047 million score, it's funny how you can search the internet, and months later, a completely new item pops up based solely on your keyword combination. In this case, I was searching for content related to CGE UK 2005, and this article came up in the search results. It features an interview with Seth Gordon, Steve Wiebe, and Steve Sanders:
There's nothing brand new per se, but interesting anecdotes from the three. On the issue of the 1.047 million score in KoK, Gordon said something interesting about Mitchell's comfort about the score:
Seth: "What we were aware of was that Billy had always talked about how you've got to do it live for it to really count. Then the tape had, again, such spectacle around it that it felt like the intention was for it to count. Then when he agreed with Walter [Day] that the tape could be submitted - later on he had second thoughts about that, by the way - and the score entered that night, Walter was a huge fan of Billy submitting that score. He was saying, "I don't know why he doesn't just submit it. We've all seen it. It should count." But I don't think any of that took into consideration how that would seem to Steve, especially when he'd been asked to travel across the country to prove himself."
We saw back when Weibe and Mitchell both co-submitted their own videos to RTM to be adjudicated for the first million points scores (this is a year or two before King of Kong) that when Wiebe's was disqualified - for using a double DK board I think - Mitchell immediately withdrew his tape and score. Such a move always struck me as odd - why would you back out when the field is now wide open to claim uncontested the first recorded million score on DK? Back in 2000, it was Mitchell's stated goal on a podcast to clinch that score because "people said it couldn't be done." I think we could speculate that a fear of discovery about how the game was actually made might have induced a certain level of stress, and so when the immediate need to contest Wiebe for the first million point game was removed, Mitchell backed out - maybe hoping to clinch the first million on real hardware. Then with the 1.047 million, Mitchell apparently wavers, but Day is eager to promote the prowess of the world's most famous video game player.
EDIT: It bears worth remembering that Wiebe achieved 985,600 on the very first day he was there, on his third game. That's spitting distance of one million, and not only is Wiebe in position to get another world record, he's sitting pretty to clinch the first verified million point game - live and witnessed by TG staff - the very title that Mitchell backed out from securing himself earlier. What's Mitchell to do? Remember what FirebrandX said - Mitchell is keen on milestone "I was the first" achievements, and after Pac-Man, the first million is his next "I was first" goal. Recall from KoK, it's evening and Brian Kuh borrows a phone to call Mitchell, now the 1.047 million tape is "more important than ever." Does Mitchell agree to have it aired publicly, with a bounty attached to ramp up the pressure on Wiebe on his second day of attempts? Does he go further, and have it verified, just in case Wiebe pulls off something crazy and gets over the million point line and steals his "I was first" thunder?
Then when the film is nearing release and Mitchell learns that his tape submission makes him look hypocritical - along with Wiebe's last minute submission that beats out Mitchell at film's end - Mitchell decides that he has to act. So just a few weeks before the film hits wide release, Mitchell pulls off this miracle game at a broker's convention as his personal "gotcha" towards Gordon and Cunningham for how they made him look. And then it's downhill from there.
great find on the poster and i loved you commentary of promotinng fame. i noticed this myself some time back. its interesting, one other guy, who i wont mention, cause i'm really not trying to bash him so much as highlight the "fake it till you make it" "famous for being famous" approach.
people want to meet famous people. it works. even a famous person you dont care about, or even knew about, you want your picture taken just that you can share with people who do care. heck i've seen people bragabout knowing someone who met a celebrity.
so anyway, this other guy, he learned what a cycle it was. he'd push and push till some local news would do a piece on him, and eventually get it. he'd then go to conventions, and prove he was a famous gamer by pointing to the local news pieces. he'd then go to the local news and get more pieces on him by pointing to the convention to show how important he was, he'd then use those more news pieces to convince other conventions to get him. an entire cycle. conventions advertised him as the famous player from the news, the news reported him as the famous player from conventions. yet noone talked about what made him famous. only this guy, billy, and walter seemed to know that cycle.
I would've never come up with the idea, so i admit its brilliant. i can only see it after noticing them do it. they figure out how to be famous for being famous before it was even a phrase. they figured out fame is a cycle, and you can break into it by lying even about famous, but once the first person believes the lie, now you have a seed that can spin into something real
its actually really interesting.
I know, it’s Friday night, I should be out having fun, but I have to wait on a few family errands. While waiting, I wanted to follow up on that CGEUK 2005 poster to see what it said about Mitchell as an introduction to a new UK audience.
First and foremost, I have to extend a big thanks (which I’ve neglected to do previously) to Paul Dean @ CAGDC and acknowledge the wonder of the Internet Archive (Wayback Machine). Dean is a prolific documentarian, and he has proven time and time again that “things get lost on the Internet.” With his thorough review of news events at CAGDC, he’s preserved hyperlinks that have long disappeared from Google search results. Take these hyperlinks, and very often the Internet Archive has captured the original page. This has proven to be the only way to search the old TG - unfortunately, a lot of the older content in the current iteration of the site has disappeared through migrations, or it’s simply unrecoverable from a hyperlink perspective.
Now, to frame the post, a reminder about Mitchell’s incredible claim from the Billy Mitchell Evidence Package:
“When it comes to score submissions, Billy Mitchell holds himself to a high standard. Mitchell only submits scores performed at live events under proper adjudication. Mitchell has never submitted a score via video tape.” (page 6).
“The King of Kong movie totally falsifies the narrative that Mitchell submitted the 1,047,200 performance…Robert Mruczek, the only person that contends the score was submitted, has conflicting testimony, and doesn’t tell a straight story. His story about Mitchell shipping him the tape is falsified.” (page 12)
William “Billy” Mitchell Statement: “I have never, under any circumstances submitted a video taped world record. I only submit scores done live, in public venues, under proper adjudication…During the Twin Galaxies investigation, in early March , I explained to Jace Hall that I never submitted the 1,047,200 performance.” (page 17)
Pretty strong stuff that serves as an outrageous and insulting example of gaslighting. And I know - we long ago debunked this senseless claim. We raised hell, and put a prop under it. We’re well beyond the shadow of a doubt - we’re standing in blazing sunlight here.
But after coming across this, I had to post it for public transparency and posterity. It comes from a Twin Galaxies article entitled, “Billy Mitchell Creates More Memorabilia to Document Video Game and Pinball History” (30 August 2006). The article outlines Mitchell’s passion for creating collectables like posters. “People will be playing video games and pinball for hundreds of years to come,” says Mitchell, ”so I want to leave historic memorabilia to commemorate what we did in our own time to show future generations that our contribution to the heritage of electronic gaming was significant.” The article includes a comprehensive archive of posters for the reader to sample. One poster I found particularly striking was presented on March 4, 2006 as part of “Twin Galaxies Coronation Day.”
The original link is here:
1,047,200 score? Check
Special ceremony held at Rickey's Restaurant in Hollywood, Florida, where Mitchell works? Check
Twin Galaxies-recognized world record? Check
Verified through video tape submission? Check
Award conferred to Billy Mitchell? Check
Recognition by Walter Day? Check
Limited 5 poster edition? Check
So yeah, there you go - that’s how Mitchell debunks TG’s findings and restores his credibility.
Final observation: if you go to the original link for the evidence package, Mitchell’s document is called “Billy Mitchell Evidence Package (First)”
Do you think we’ll ever see a (Second)?
hold up, are you claiming you actually had the maxout submitted? i know you like to claim you and todd would do this one blindfolded, though i think you've burned your bridge of getting him to go in and vouch for you on this one now. but you're not just talking about doing it in private with todd as your witness? you're actually saying you had 1080? I just wanna make sure i dont get accused of wrongly putting words in your mouth. you are stating you actually got the 1080, so oh i dont know, if a copy of the scoreboard from then where to show up, and youhave less than 1080 that would be impossible right?
O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.
Sir Walter Scott
Following the latest information concerning the recognition of Mitchell's 1.047 million score, I thought it was time to give the last word on this subject to Mitchell himself -- courtesy of a 2007 interview. Without the glare of the dispute review to contend with, Mitchell was in complete agreement that thanks to his verified 1.047 million score, he was able to dethrone Steve Weibe from top spot. For added measure, it's worth noting that Mitchell's recollection in 2007 about the 1.047 million score echoes what RTM had to say on the subject recently, as well as what Walter Day originally shared back in 2008.
Dispute review, page 35:
"I hereby testify that after the 2005 event when we watched a low-quality VHS tape of Billy's 1.047M performance, I personally removed the associated score that Walter had entered into the TG database unbeknownst to me at the tail-end of that event.
Further, several months after the event, I ended up receiving in the mail from Billy Mitchell the "master" tape of that performance, where the infamous "glitch" in the mid-high 600K range was no longer as prevalent.
The tape was sent to me for the purpose of watching and adding into the TG database, which I did, and Walter was aware of this."
The score was verified on January 31, 2006:
Issue #4 - Why Billy Mitchell's Videotape score was Accepted
"I, Walter Day, am solely responsible for accepting Billy Mitchell's videotaped score during the Funspot 2005 event. When Billy requested recognition for the score over the phone, asking that it be viewed as an official submission, as shown in the movie, I approved the score believing that the problem of the frame-skips would be minor and that Billy's original master tape -- when it would finally arrive -- would prove to be free of any defects that were seen on the "duplicate" tape shown in the movie. But, before the Funspot weekend was over, I realized I had made a mistake and planned on taking the score down when I returned to my office the next day, on Monday.
But, before I could take the score down, Chief Referee Robert Mruczek, on behalf of the Twin Galaxies Board of Referees, took the score down. They also agreed that it was a mistake to accept the score. [snip]
Interestingly, this means that Billy Mitchell's score was only published for 48 hours, and then the world title reverted back to Steve Wiebe's score of 985,600 points. Steve Wiebe's score of 985,600 points would remain the world record for the next 240 days. The movie does not reveal the fact that Twin Galaxies immediately reversed the decision to accept Billy's score and that Steve reigned as the champion for nearly three straight years (June 30,2003 - January 30, 2006)."
240 days after the Funspot event in June 2005 works out to 8 months, bringing us to January 2006.
Broward Palm Beach Times, "Kongfrontation," John Linn, 6 September 2007
"We feel Mitchell's icy grip from afar as he plots against Wiebe via telephone. We see Walter Day — founder of Twin Galaxies, an organization that acts as gaming referee — squash Wiebe's aspirations of claiming a record through live play by posting Mitchell's seemingly dubious taped score as the new record on the TG website.
Mitchell's betrayal of Wiebe is all there on film, as vivid as the colors on an arcade screen. So how could it be wrong?
Easy, Mitchell says. It's all in the emphasis. That tape he sent with Doris Self? It was "just for fun," not an elaborate tactic to cheat Wiebe. The score from Mitchell's tape was yanked from TG's website just days later, and Wiebe actually reigned as Donkey Kong champion for the next eight months — a fact the film doesn't reveal."
Eight months from early June 2005 brings us to the end of January 2006, the date where Mitchell's submission was confirmed as a world record. A special event ("coronation day") for Mitchell would be organized and held at his restaurant in Hollywood Florida to celebrate his million point achievement weeks later.
I'd like to extend a big thanks to Simon Roberts for sharing additional video footage of the Classic Gaming Expo - UK (CGEUK) gathering at Croydon in 2005. Simon originally worked with Robert Hazelby to compile footage and create a master DVD of the event. More recently, Simon set about to find the original footage on source tape, which he then transferred to digital format for upload to YouTube. Thanks Simon and Robert!
In all cases, please click the image to start the video.
CGE UK 2005 Part 1
CGE UK 2005 Part 2
CGE UK 2005 Wing Galaxies Q&A Panel
The Twin Galaxies panel is a higher quality upload, and includes some "extra footage" that was originally edited from the "final cut" that was used on the DVD.
Similarly, with Part 2 is the "walk about" that includes some additional footage, such as Mitchell standing among attendees as they watch the playback of a Pac-Man game that's at the TG table (the video equipment is the same one that Mitchell used for the playback of this 1,047,200 million DK game). I spotted the Pac-Man screen in some other CGEUK photos, but this is the most direct view I've seen. At first, I thought it was probably Mitchell's Pac-Man game, but then I recalled from Jace Hall's review of the Mitchell's DK tapes - for a moment towards the end of the review, he played back some of Mitchell's Perfect Pac-Man and the camera angle is different. After watching an Apollo Legend video featuring Dwayne Richard I thought it matched Chris Ayra's game, but then I remembered that Donald Hayes achieved a perfect game a couple of weeks before the London trip. I couldn't find any video of Hayes' Pac-Man run to compare at this point, though. So at this point, I'm not entirely sure whether it's Ayra's or Hayes' game that was featured at the event alongside Donkey Kong.
CGEUK 2005 Pac-Man
Just heard that Billy's score's is going back up on Guinness??? WTF??
How is this even possible??
I guess Mitchell rolled them. Do you have any details? I saw a reference to 'scores' too, but I'm not clear if it's just Perfect Pac-Man. Since that score was removed as part of a comprehensive score removal penalty, I always felt it was possible they would elect to recognize the score anyway. The only way the removed DK scores are reflected at Guinness is with the First Million on DK - if Guinness truly values their partnerships with trusted "scorekeeping" organizations like TG, they shouldn't be doing anything with the 1.047 million, which was the basis for that distinction.
Besides, as I made clear in my own correspondence to Guinness, that score has been renounced by Mitchell as a verified score in his own Evidence Package. So with TG's determination and Mitchell's "defence," there's no reason to restore the First Million, and it should rightly fall to Steve Wiebe.
I've quietly heard this "Guinness is reinstating Billy's scores" rumor before. I never repeated it because it was never properly sourced (it seemed to be originating from Team Billy themselves), and I've been skeptical for a number of reasons. Why would Guinness even acknowledge a legal threat at all? Why would they care about a dead-on-arrival lawsuit of lies? Why would they care about making Walter Day or Billy Mitchell happy? Why would they risk giving an invitation to any yahoo off the street to sue them over alleged world records? Regardless of the speculation now, the more and more time passes since the September legal threat, the less likely it seems that Guinness will do anything they haven't already done. And it's not clear to me whether this now public rumor (which Dwayne Richard attributes to Jace Hall) is a "This is definitely a thing that's happening," or just speculation on what could end up happening which Dwayne heard and is now running with. Bottom line: I'll believe it when I see it.
Reinstating the 1.047m DK score (i.e., "first million") would be complete crazy town at this point. That score is nothing but lies, all the way down. If we were to talk possibilities, I could maybe see Guinness offering a settlement to reinstate perfect Pac-Man (and only perfect Pac-Man), partly on the basis of the witness statements from Funspot, and partly on the authority of Walter Day, who has worked with Guinness before. But Guinness wouldn't just give that away for free in the midst of a legal threat. It would be part of a package deal: You get this and you agree not to sue for anything else. And that would depend on whether Mister "Never Surrender" would accept the offer. No agreement, no dice.
EDIT: I would strikethrough the claim that Dwayne attributed the rumor to Jace, but my attempts to do so aren't working, so I'll leave the text as is. As explained below, while Jace was the only person Dwayne named in his video, and while Jace contacted Dwayne discussing the matter, they both agree it was more of a speculative conversation asking "What would the reaction be?" And Dwayne, while streaming off-the-cuff yesterday, worded everything a bit poorly. (Note also how Dwayne's wording characterizes it as a foregone conclusion, which suggests confidence in direct knowledge, but they both agree that's not actually the case.) For my part, I can confirm again that this rumor predates their conversation.
Oh, and before anybody does a search and makes a big deal over what they find, Billy Mitchell's name does still appear on the Guinness website. Specifically, this page refers to him and his 1999 Pac-Man score:
But that's not a current acknowledgment of a world record. That's a daily digest, posted on the date listed. Billy's Pac-Man, which at the time was considered a world record, was tied into some news story about Saturn's moon. Here's the same article on Internet Archive from 2012:
There were no captures from between last year's dispute verdict and now, but I'm pretty confident no editing was done on this old daily digest. In other words, the reference wasn't removed and then reinstated.
The page you would want to keep an eye on, which used to be the home of "First perfect score on Pac-Man", and which currently leads to an error page, is here:
I attempted to offer tipster a correction:
6 hours ago
This report is not accurate
4 hours ago (edited)
I responded to your other comments. But to respond to this, I do not feel that my reporting was inaccurate. I merely showed Dwayne's statements and presented several questions based on them. I appreciate your feedback. But I respectfully disagree with your observation.
3 hours ago
@Tipster at 3:53 in the video you literally say "It was revealed during that conversation that Guinness is actually going to be restoring Billy Mitchell's scores..." - This is 100% not true or accurate. You have pulled this "fact" out of thin air with no substantiation. This was not discussed or revealed on my call with Dwayne, or any other call I have been on. This comment is the specific section I was referring to and hoping you would edit out because the reporting here is inaccurate. Please listen to Dwayne's statements, and then listen to what you said in the video. Dwayne made no such statement I told him any such thing. I appreciate that you disagree but, Im not sure how you can justify that disagreement? Up to you to correct or not - I appreciate you at least allowing me to provide additional information.
3 hours ago
I pinned your comment to allow the audience to see your clarification. But I have no intention of editing the video as I see no issue with it as is. Again...I appreciate your feedback. But I disagree.
2 hours ago (edited)
@Tipster I appreciate the pin but not sure how you can disagree.
Let me print the full literal unaltered word-for-word statement that comes directly out of your mouth:
"He had a conversation on the phone with Jace Hall. He discussed this situation with him and it was revealed during that conversation that Guinness is actually going to be restoring Billy Mitchell's scores." - This is 100% a fabrication on your part. It's completely false. Was not said and did not happen.
In Dwayne's video he says no such thing, and I definitely did not reveal or discuss this statement that you made. I am not sure why you want to misrepresent this instead of correcting. The error in reporting is plain as day and not debatable based on the Dwayne video you directly show.
It's confusing to me why you are resistant as I always had the impression that you were interested in factual depiction. However it is your show/video so of course you can do what you want.
Please know that I have tried to be very specific and exact in the information I have provided and if you choose not to correct your video it will continue to push out some false information to your viewership. Up to you.
I do appreciate your efforts overall regardless.
For reference, this is how Dwayne characterizes the exchange in his video:
“I’m tired of this **** man, there’s no f*cking point, it’s just - no one f*cking cares, and it’s irrelevant, it’s just a f*cking video game score, and whatcha call it, ah, Guinness is actually going to put f*cking Bill’s score back up. Jace contacted me yesterday night, or a couple of days ago, and said ‘how are people going to react’ - I don’t f*cking know, I don’t f*cking care”
Been a while and I'm just curious if there has been any update on this. I know litigation makes discussion about the case at hand not easy, so if that's the reason it's fallen silent I fully understand.
I wanted to include a post at classicarcadegaming.com that was shared with me earlier today.
As we know, Mitchell has denied using MAME in the past for gaming, with the exception of gameplay on an ArcadePC cabinet in 2005 (which is still in fact a MAME set-up):
DJEmergency Post #3145 - "X Cast" Interview with Billy Mitchell 13 February 2018 - 14:43 mark
Mitchell: "My easy answer is that I never played it [Donkey Kong] on MAME, but I'll give you a more serious answer. When we were in California there was a company called "Arcade PC" by owned by Conway...The first time I ever played against Steve Wiebe was at the Classic Game Expo in 2005 or 4 in San Jose and that was on Conway's "Donkey Kong" and that was a MAME machine with a computer inside. So the fact is.. have I ever played MAME? If we push that kind of circumstance aside, the answer is no. Have I ever sat in front of a computer and played MAME? Not a chance, None."
Thanks to posts from francoisadt, grinder2112 (see posts #86-89 as an example), and NickWalker (see post #71 and #73 as a recap), we've examined Mitchell's past use of MAME and general awareness about it. We established that Mitchell had direct experience with MAME stretching back to 1999 with an extended gaming session on an ArcadePC typet set-up, and NickWalker documented that Mitchell and Day were contacted directly about possible MAME INP abuse in the same year.
Thanks to the digging of @francoisadt, he discovered a thread that shed further light on this issue.
The original thread was entitled Billy Mitchells 1999 Pac Man achievement (November 15, 2007)
MDARULZ (Mark Alpiger): "When I talked a couple of times with Billy (the only times that I have via phone) around the turn of the Millenium, he said that he had actually proven this, by setting MAME to cheat mode, and used infinite lives to show that you needed the 240 dot count to advance past the splitscreen. BTW, he said that the next screen was the normal screen 1 in every way, except that the prize item line at the bottom right remained intact from the previous screen."
The topic of advancing past the split screen in this way is revisited in 2016:
I can't remember exactly but years back I shared within the TG and/or CAG forum one anecdote regarding Bill Mitchell, Chris Ayra and their efforts towards mastering "Burgertime". Note that I possibly deleted my CAG post of thread response but it might still be there somewhere.
It was around the time that Bryan Wagner was setting the new world mark. They told me that they had been experimenting on MAME at the advanced levels and were between the 10-15 million range.
There's no proof of this of course...they were very careful not to commit to anything in writing...but there is no doubt that Billy is well versed with MAME, maybe not WolfMAME but definitely the MAME of yesteryear.
So I'm doing a new polish on my "The evidence against Billy Mitchell" post over on Donkey Kong Forum:
There's one item I'd like to add that I don't have a good single source to point to, so I'll just put it here. It has to do with a claim by Billy's friend and "hired" specialist Robbie Lakeman, as part of his game play analysis (submitted with the September 2019 evidence packet). Specifically, on page 96 of the original 156-page version (seen here - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BMb...oQiuAdgcJ/view ), he says the following:
I decided to look up this incident he talks about. It's located at 1:31:00 on this video:Quote:
The argument for Billy risking "The danger zone" with Donkey Kong throwing wild barrels is also invalid. He actually noticed, and avoided it on level 13-5 in his 1,047,200 game. It shows that he does look for that possibility during his games.
Turns out, when you actually watch it, it's quite the opposite! Rather than waiting a moment for Kong to release a barrel, thus making it safe to climb up to the next girder, Billy climbs right up the ladder without hesitation. He recklessly walks right into the trap of a potential wild barrel. And instead of falling into that trap and dying, at the very last moment he sees the barrel coming and backtracks, narrowly averting death. The fact that he avoided death is then presented as proof of some sort of careful consideration, when in reality it's a demonstration of the recklessness of his game play (one which didn't fall victim to Billy's save-stating or whatever, since the outcome was acceptable). While surely one must take risks if one wishes to seize a world record, no matter how Team Billy likes to gloss them over, big risks without any perceived upside are inexplicable, especially so deep into a world record pace run.
Speaking from a first-hand account of when this performance was initially shared in front of his peers privately, and then publicly a few days later, when we watched the performance at the time the general consensus was that Billy was "pushing the envelope".
Remember that at that point in time the very thought of Billy cheating, or for that matter even needing to cheat, had never even crossed our minds. To say that he had been given the benefit-of-doubt would be a fair assessment. In the eyes of a great many of us, it was the game that he had built his rep on and the one that he knew better than anyone based on all that we had seen and heard of up to that point in time.
In retrospect, "The Legend Outweighed Common Sense" to coin a phrase.
Anyone who was witness to the phenomenal prowess of Donald Hayes on "Centipede" for example would not even blink an eye at him taking out four individual/disjointed and far-apart centipede segments in the space of a single second as I had seen him do this on many an occasion. Billy was afforded a similar level of "trust" for lack of a better word. It may not have been the fairest PoV or even smartest, but there was no denying this at the time.
A few years back, more than five now actually, I was privy to someone who had used WolfMAME "save state" to concatenate a performance on "Pandora's Palace", something at the time I helped contribute my insight to as I had been one of the better players on that specific title. The gamer in question also as I had been told performed a similar stunt on I believe it was "Galaga" or "Gyruss", one of the two. In any event, a similar amount of recklessness with "Pandora" had been clearly evident, but I was quite skilled at the title and could easily place myself into the position of "what would I have done ?" as opposed to merely watching an expert at DK seemingly getting away with near misses and attributing that to a similar degree of decades of skill at the title. I also had the benefit of watching the world's best "Pandora" player perform right in from of me both decades prior when we learned the title and decades later on MAME, so my level of understanding was light-years ahead of what it was for DK.
When all of us at the cabin for the first showing of the 1.047M (part 1) and then again in Funspot/ACAM for the entirety, the only "kill screen capable" player on premise was Steve Wiebe, who never watched that tape as he was too busy reaching 985K on the arcade original as the tape was playing for the masses. And the NEXT most capable player on-premise was Brian Kuh who was dividing his time running back and forth between watching Wiebe and the tape as it played.
Minor historical note...I can't believe that I forgot this but it MIGHT have been the very first time that Brian ran around the arcade telling people that a "Donkey Kong kill screen was coming up if anyone is interested".
RTM REPLY - I was not actually referring to a world record performance by Don but his gameplay in general. His actual BEST achievement on "Centipede" is on the 3-minute challenge ROMset whereby he had "looped" the centipede and reached 4 stages further years back...that was absolutely phenomenal and was three solid minutes of near-robotic perfection.
I have thought of posting this earlier at TG site but did not but think TG and yourself, anyone on this forum will find this useful.
I already posted on DK forum first and now here as well.
Hi Ersatz_cats & TG and Forum MembersQuote:
Originally Posted by Billy Mictell
This is not a true statement.
The comparison test between Arcade and specific released versions from MAME-DEV Team site, to match the time frame of when these games of Billy were produced, are not complete or impartially tested by only looking at the standard versions of MAME released that do exist at the time of submissions.
It is a "known" fact to hard core MAME hobbyist and Mame based Arcade Cabinet Builders that other versions and custom ports of MAME exist which are not the standard MAME releases.
Custom versions of MAME that are able to change refresh rate to look more like arcade and are able to slow down the emulation
to effect the graphics/sprites to display differently in sequence than normal MAME are:
- custom Apple versions using SDL
NOTE: [There were a few others I did found a few months ago on archive.org but have lost those links. Someone else can go and dig to find other nonstandard MAME versions on archive.org]
Those that are more technical inclined and want to change the behavior of standard v-sync and horizontal sync with lowering refresh rate rendered through video cards, may start reading the links below. It is NOT an inclusive list but is enough evidence that tweaks could have been done by custom MAME versions at that time. Some links even contain the code what need to be done.
About FPS, Refresh Rates, Smoothness And Mame:
"Disabling throttle and enabling "sync to monitor refresh", it should generate the "right" number of frames to ensure 1:1 ratio. Since I use a common mainstream LCD monitor, this means that MAME forces the game to render 60 fps (to sync to my monitor's 60Hz refresh rate). In case of a game running @ 59.12 Hz on original hardware, this leads to a tiny 1% of more speed. And pressing F11 while ingame I can effectively verifiy that I have 0 skip and 101 to 102% of original speed."
"I know there is a MAME flavour, named GroovyMAME, focused on this but if I correctly understood an AMD card (I have Nvidia) and a CRT monitor are required for it to give the best results."
Emulation vs Framemeister a few questions:
"MAME attempts to faithfully emulate the amount of time it takes for the actual arcade game to process an input and provide output - in some well-regarded arcade games there's already a couple frames of latency between the moment an input travels through the JAMMA connector, and the moment the RGB signals are sent back out across that connector. As far as I know, it's the MAME vision that this timing be represented reasonably accurately (whatever that means). However, MAME as a program runs in non-realtime OSes like Windows and (most variants of) Linux. There are all sorts of tricks one can try to reduce the time inputs and outputs spend within the operating system, but this will never get to an "instantaneous" level. In fact it's been quite a challenge for many users to get it to the sub-frame level (which would be "more than good enough" for many users) in many cases, especially when the monitor is concerned.
Long story short - ShmupMAME tried to eliminate some actually original sources of lag as a way of finding some "free" performance in games, to counteract the lag from the program within the OS. As it turns out, a number of arcade games cannot simply be hacked like this while remaining faithful to the originals. I know that visuals were affected in some cases.
There are a number of things that are possible or should shortly become possible to help fight these new sources of latency, without compromising MAME's ability to present the games accurately."
"MAME can be lagless--you just can't enable v-sync.
V-sync is the only thing that really introduces lag with MAME. Like I said before, if you run fast enough, the extra frames compensate for any lag introduced by the OS or the emulation itself."
ShmupMAME hacked MAME to **** in an attempt to reduce input lag and still enable v-sync.
"precisazione importante sul funzionamento di GroovyMAME":
For instance, 1942 won't run at 60 Hz with CGA settings. 256 are too many lines, it will only reach 58 Hz or so. However, if you use the H9110 settings, that game will be rendered at 16.6 kHz hfreq, so it will run at exact 60 Hz.
Input Lag - MAME iteration comparisons vs. the real thing?
Minimizing input lag is HUGE (as many already know) especially when it comes to very time sensitive game types like shmups and fighters. The "tricks" used by ShmupMAME has garnered it the "unofficial" non-actual-hardware choice method of playing the game Super Street Fighter II Turbo. In fact, some work had been done to draw direct comparisons to actual hardware:
"sometimes i have to play with the sync to monitor refresh , triple buffering settings for some games to run smooth. sometimes emulation speed
time crisis , ace driver , ridge racer , mortal kombat 4 all dont run smooth from the getgo
sometimes if i start mame the first time it runs slow as hell then after restart it runs smooth again"
Various resolutions used in video game monitors...(that are used as input to tweak parameters)
Making twin cobra/kyukyoku tiger smooth in MAME?:
As for the refresh rate issue, yeah I put my monitor in 58 to 60 hz for most games as it makes to image visibly smoother to me and deal with the tearing. Or if it's an old game with no precision dodging I just turn on tripple buffer because I can deal with a frame of lag in those.
MAME Mac OS X savestate trouble in DDP:
try experimenting with the following:
samplerate: i use 48000 (same as what i run pulseaudio at (i'm on linux), which is also my sound cards native sample rate). if you still have sound issues at 48000 try lowering this to 44100.
audio_latency: default is 2, though i have it set to 1 with no problems. if it's skipping try increasing this a bit.
waitvsync: i'd suggest only disabling this if it gives you problems or if your concerned about input lag.
syncrefresh: i have this disabled. when combined with waitvsync this will cause mame to sync the game to your monitors refresh rate (~60 fps for most monitors) rather than the games actual rate. this may provide a smoother experience, but if the games actual refresh rate is different from your monitors it will come at the cost of the game running a little faster or slower then it was intended to (faster in the case of ddp).
Shmupmame 4.2: Lagless Mars Matrix, Strikers 1945, Galaga 88
There is no other method of reliably showing the entire emulated frame exactly once per frame. If you turn off vsync you will get tearing or frame skipping or frame duplication. Vsync will add *at worst* one frame of lag. Depending on how exactly the CPU based timing works it might not add any lag at all. You can reduce the lag to almost nothing if your CPU is fast enough and your OS scheduler is good enough by adding a delay (preferably spinning the CPU, not yielding to the OS) just before the input polling. My black frame insertion hack does this as a side effect of its simple CPU time wasting implementation. I've actually made a version of MAME with both black frame insertion and extra pre-input-polling delay, but the delay needs to be carefully tuned to remove as much lag as possible without being too long and causing frame duplication, so it has to be carefully tuned for each game and CPU combo, and I never got round to figuring out MAME slider controls and I got annoyed with having to recompile to change the delay so I gave up on that idea for now. It's only a few milliseconds at stake. If you're running at 60Hz then it's more serious.
SHMUPMAME & Front-end
For what it's worth, that speed inaccuracy also comes up if you play MAME with VSync on. If you remove that inaccuracy, you get screen tearing. You have to choose the lesser evil. Obviously for a console port, screen tearing is something you just don't want to happen, so they opt for turning on VSync. The only way to avoid screen tearing AND have the same speed, is to be able to set your monitor's vertical refresh to the game's original refresh rate, which happens to typically be quite difficult. MAME tends to be inaccurate often times. Many of the CPU cores don't count cycles properly or wait-states are not emulated (most importantly, the 68000 core that's used by more than half the games that MAME runs; this issue is particularly obvious in almost every CPS1/CPS2 game), and the sound emulation is pretty mediocre (MAME .99 [base of SM3.0b] was much much worse in this regard, and was downright awful for many sound chips).
What is the point of playing gimped arcade ports?
No, throttle just keeps the emulation speed at 100%. IIRC, to force the game to 60hz (or whatever your monitor's native refresh is), you have to enable "Sync to Monitor Refresh" and disable multi-threading. This can be a neat thing to play around with, but I don't use it because the sound is weird.
Article: What is ShmupArch? Why Does it Matter?
GroovyMAME is only for CRT's/15KHz and only works with old AMD GPU's; no, not only it can provide the same benefits with LCDs (100% refresh accuracy on everything and lag reduction) and of course assuming your own flat panel is flexible enough to accept many if not every modes (mine does from 50 to 75Hz and it's a basic full-hd not even freesync, it's worth trying) but it's been expanded to work with 4K and the upcoming version of CRT_Emudriver will support up to Vega.
What I made for GroovyMAME is to create a third thread of execution to deal with video updates (draw + wait for v-sync), so the window thread is always free to process input messages as soon as they come. This *seems* to keep input lag as low as what you get with -throttle alone.
Split from ITALY v.s. SHMUPS.COM thread:
"I'm sure they already know. Fact is, if you've got a display that refreshes at 60hz (for example, an LCD), and you want to display a game that updates at 59hz, you are going to have tearing or jumping somewhere. You can try this with 19XX for example. Someone tried to tell me I was wrong, and that the original board suffers the jumping issue. Er.. whatever (I own one, it doesn't ;-) ) Only way around this is a setup where the refresh rate is fully controllable. That very much depends on your graphics card, monitor, OS, and IIRC using AdvanceMAME."
"Even with a graphics card that can be tweaked to a specific refresh rate, you will still not be able to get it "perfect" as the card has one clock, and your CPU another. I've worked for a month trying to get the perfect mame setup with perfect picture, and always have a ripple running through the display because DDP uses a 57.550644Hz refresh rate :? Even speeding up the emulated framerate to lock everything in at 60hz, my tri-res monitor sees it as 59.99998...and still get a slow ripple"
"Nothing comparable to the 1 frame of input lag you could find on non-shmupMAME (which has 0), it's like 3 or 4 there, it's ridiculous."
Why Project64 2.0 is banned from SRL
To clarify those reading:
If frames and sprites are not from an Arcade (those that occur as per Billy Mitchell's game play) as per TG claim and DK Forum and the emulator versions TG has test / compare against, were MAME standard versions, to test/compare of MAME able to produce same images for Billy Mitchell submissions, I do mention it now (maybe too late) but that a non-standard MAME version could have been used by the gamer instead of assuming that a standard release version of MAME from MAME-Dev site would have been the one would have been used by the gamer.
Therefore it is very easy for the gamer then to claim: "MAME Version" does not exist.
Of course such a MAME version would not exist if you only look at standard versions and IF the gamer did use a non-standard version which can be tweaked produce different results.
Instead : The what if analysis have not been done if non-standard emulators produce these same non-Arcade images and frames.
Non - standard emulators are proven to produce different frames with different sprites in different screen video refresh rate sequences than what is hard coded in standard MAME version.
Non standard MAME ports were created exactly to enable a gamer to do this:
Manipulate the input lag and output sequence of graphics in higher speeds that reflect and rendering different than what standard release versions of MAME do.
Before I joined TG in 2001, there was a version of MAME which I was told was referred to as "MAME 35 TG3" or something like that.
As I recall, it was developed specifically for TG for the express purpose of having selected Williams titles set for TG settings or something to that effect. I knew very little of it although I do remember using it at some point back in the pre-2001 era.
Being that TG and Billy were so intertwined back then, is it remotely possible that back-in-the-day yet another alternate version of MAME was designed...one specifically commissioned by Billy...for his own personal usage inclusive of concatenating performances (i.e. save state) ?
To clarify those reading:
If frames and sprites are not from an Arcade (those that occur as per Billy Mitchell's game play) as per TG claim and DK Forum and the emulator versions TG has test / compare against, were MAME standard versions, to test/compare of MAME able to produce same images for Billy Mitchell submissions, I do mention it now (maybe too late) but that a non-standard MAME version could have been used by the gamer instead of assuming that a standard release version of MAME from MAME-Dev site would have been the one would have been used by the gamer.
Therefore it is very easy for the gamer then to claim: "MAME Version" does not exist.
Of course such a MAME version would not exist if you only look at standard versions and IF the gamer did use a non-standard version which can be tweaked produce different results.
Instead : The what if analysis have not been done if non-standard emulators produce these same non-Arcade images and frames.
Non - standard emulators are proven to produce different frames with different sprites in different screen video refresh rate sequences than what is hard coded in standard MAME version.
Non standard MAME ports were created exactly to enable a gamer to do this:
Manipulate the input lag and output sequence of graphics in higher speeds that reflect and rendering different than what standard release versions of MAME do.
Thanks as well for updating the Mitchell dispute evidence thread at DK Forums that you originally compiled in 2019 - it's a great reference for anyone who doesn't want to read 300 plus pages in the original TG dispute thread, either as someone new to the issue or as someone who wants a well-written and researched refresher.
How long have you been playing Twin Galaxies? And how long have you been a member of this forum? I am an old player. I even cannot remember when exactly I started playing it. I think it has been several years for sure. But I am new to this forum. I am from https://areaphonecodes.com/united-states/561. And where are you from? I see a lot of interesting topics are discussed here.
In this day and age, legal threats are considered to be such a great enough threat that it usually doesn't come to that. It seems Billy is hoping that with enough legal saber rattling, he'll convince Twin Galaxies to reverse their decision.
I agree Grizzlymm, it doesn't make a lot of sense to threaten legal action on the basis of what they ultimately presented, but as Lauren Tyler pointed out, sabre-rattling to achieve an outcome (reversal of TG's decision) without actually involving the courts could be at least one factor in the mix. Mitchell's repeated hints over the course of 17 months following TG's April 2018 decision that he would take action to prove his innocence was likely another factor to "follow through" lest his supporters grow skeptical of his claims. Looking back on the events that followed the release of the "Evidence Package" in September 2019, one consequence (based on my anecdotal observations) is that the number of people from the classic arcade scene who previously supported his claims (or at least gave him the benefit of the doubt) has declined. This was due to his cumulative failure to address the technical evidence as well as his dramatically revised accounts of non-controversial past events or evidence offered in the course of the original dispute, which further undermined his credibility.
its amazing how often people forget what a bluff is
"why would he do that, if hes guilty he'd suffer so much, only an innocent man would do that, the only way a guilty man would do that is if hes an idiot, is he an idiot"
"no, a guilty man would do that because he'd know you'd say the above and give him a pass"
a bluff, thats how it works. you purposely make a bad move knowing your opponent would figure no way you'd make a bad move and falsely assume its a good move
also, for someone in desperation mode, buying a few more weeks of beliving among the true believers is better than giving up and having zero weeks of belief.
the problem is trying to analyze this legally and scientifically while ignoring the psychological element. Walter, Billy and no doubt some of their friends are psychological geniuses. They are wayyy out of all of our leagues in that domain.
Aaaand now he's gone ahead and filed his lawsuit. Here we go again...
Anyone do have the link to his lawsuit document?
Ask and you shall receive.
Previously there was a very long document focusing on the validity of removing his scores.
So now the focus is different? So I understand the context and focus have moved?
...Maybe a first step.. towards his bigger plan..
What concerns me is that he might ask those involved in the dispute to testify. Which means I'd have to travel a long distance.
I know that it sounds clichèd to post here on this thread as my first post, but since the link to the article has not been mentioned, I will go ahead and mention that. I don't mean the PDF, I mean the article, where it does says that the court is planned to happen in July.
Anyways, I'm still trying to figure out this forum... it's a little confusing because there's no quick tools, so like you have to manually add bold instead of click-and-write archetype.
Welcome to TG, Michele. If you're interested in reviewing the original dispute review, the link is contained in the first post of this thread, which runs chronologically from August 2017 to April 2018. In September 2019, Mitchell sent a demand letter to TG with an accompany Evidence Package. That discussion begins on page 326.
For more information about the site in general such as submitting scores to TG, there is a link to "help and tutorials" under Site Info.
RTM REPLY - under present-day circumstances a remote deposition, if push comes to shove, might have to be acceptable. The sheer pomposity of his defense team pushing a judge to have people travel under present-day circumstances because their client's ego was bruised would likely torpedo his case in a flat second if the presiding judge was reasonable at par minimum.
And I hope that Jace's legal team looks into whether the assigned judge needs to be recused because of prior legal dealings with the Mitchell family or the restaurant business.
Would be nice if a true "jury of his peers" were picked...and by peers I mean gamers. Outside of a half dozen die-hard supporters at least half of any potential jury comprised exclusively of gamers are likely sick of this whole sordid saga by now.
Welcome Michele to Twin Galaxies.
I am surprised this still going on wow!.
Here is some information you also checkout here below plus you can PM private message TG members and staff
@Jace Hall @SincerelyFranny @admin staff @TWIN GALAXIES
- 1Policy What is Twin Galaxies?
- 2Policy How to sign up, get registered and become verified!
- 3Policy How to submit a score to Twin Galaxies
- 4Policy What should I put in my submission evidence package?
- 5Policy Guidelines for recording a video game score performance
- 6Policy What video file formats does Twin Galaxies accept for upload?
- 7Policy General Gameplay Global Rules and Guidelines for all Submissions
- 8Policy What is "Leeching?" - Policy Information and Guide
- 9Policy Video Game Marathoning A Policy Information and Guide
- 10Policy Official MAME Platform Submission Rules and Guidelines
- 11Policy How does Twin Galaxies adjudicate scores?
- 12Policy How can I participate in the adjudication process?
- 13Policy Adjudication Basic Guide: What to look for?
- 14Policy How can I add a new game or game variation to the database?
- 15Policy What are Credibility Points (CR), Submission Points (SP), and the Expert Skill Index (ESI)?
- 16Policy Activities That Can Get You Banned For Life!
- 17Policy The Dispute Process - Guidelines and How To Submit a Dispute Claim
RTM REPLY - I doubt a judge has been assigned yet...but if Billy is suing in Florida especially within his county the possibility then exists that the assigned judge could have previously presided over a case involving either the restaurant, the hot sauce business or a member of Billy's family (including himself), thus a good defense team would always explore this possibility in advance of such much as jury selection as a presiding judge would be present even at that early stage of the process.
Personally, I think scores in old games are nothing much than just score, which is constantly beaten by new tricks. Weibo may have got 1 million in a legit run, but it's still just a score that got beaten by several, legit players. BUT I can understand how serious cheating is. I'm sighing at how he's still trying to dispute that it wasn't cheated when there's a LOT of evidence against that, considering he seemed in cahoots with Todd (the cheater of Dragster), I don't remember well. (It was late when I was reading.)
Then Twin Galaxies & Jace Hall attorney's would motion for a 'Change In Venue' that would be the most obvious choice of action.
here are the most common reason to bring up
1. to move the trial from one state to another due to the potential unfairness of a trial in the first state. or to different county within the state of Florida
2. for a different judge due to the assigned judge's potential bias.
RTM REPLY - having a judge recused due to bias is one thing...justice must be blind. But requesting a change of venue is a different matter...it could be interpreted that the defense is worried in some capacity about the lawsuit outcome, which further suggests that the defense is worried that the plaintiff may win.
However, if the likely jury pool will be comprised of local community members who hold Billy in favourable status due to the restaurant business, then a change of venue would be warranted, especially if it's a small town as members tend to stick together.
Well this sure transitioned from “best to say nothing and leave it to jace” to giving detailed speculative legal advice real fast
Apollo Legend: Angry Cheater Sues Me For $1,000,000
It looks like his GoFundMe is going to make it. 80% of his goal in three hours.
I love it, Billy tried for almost a year to raise 10k for Kong Off. Apollo puts out a video asking for help to counter sue Billy, gamers raise 13k 4 hours.
I swear, Billy Mitchell doesn't know when to quit.
I'm still hopeful we might learn the "how and who" of the production of those fraudulent tapes. Up to this point, in the absence of a coherent alternative, cheating by Mitchell is the singular explanation. (His Broward County filings make the assumption that fraudulent tapes are equivalent to cheating, so I guess they've come to the same conclusion.)
Beyond the technical explanation, I would like to know the intensely human story that led someone to so brazenly risk becoming a universal pariah in the pursuit of such a narrow slice of glory.
Apollo Legend: Billy Mitchell Won't Be Sued (For Now)
Face, meet desk.
I am new to this site, and I cannot for the life of me figure out how to reply to Tim McVey's post found at https://www.twingalaxies.com/sprinte...itchell-scores
Therefore, this is the most relevant place I can respond.
Tim, in the beginning of your post, you claim "People think I hate Billy." Why do people think that? As someone who is friends with you on Facebook, let me be the first to answer: nearly every other post that wasn't political was about Billy Mitchell. There was a slew of memes making fun of him on your wall (ie posts to the effect of "Make America MAME Again") and walls of text about your feelings about him and how he cheated. You're a cool dude otherwise, but if you don't hate him like you claim, you damn sure have an unhealthy obsession with him. It's also quite convenient that after Billy was cleared by Guinness, all those hateful posts were deleted, but still no sign of you being a man and saying "sorry" to him.
Now, was I "there" as you were? No. In fact, to this day, I've never stepped foot in an actual arcade. I grew up playing arcade compilations such as "Midway Arcade Treasures" on the PS2. I enjoy games casually, as I most likely will never have the talent or skill required to be on top of any game. I never grew up idolising any of you guys or aspiring to be on any leaderboard because that is an unrealistic goal for me. As a result, I never knew about Billy Mitchell (or you or anyone else) until Todd Rogers appeared on the Ben Heck Show and made me aware of that controversy. So why am I here, defending a man that I don't know and doesn't know me? To give a fresh perspective from someone who doesn't have all kinds of emotional ties like most here seem to have (you included).
The dispute thread was started with two pieces of evidence: 1) the board swap video; and 2) "I heard it back in the day from a friend who heard it from his sister who heard it from her girlfriend who heard it from her cousin who heard it from a prostitute that Billy Mitchell cheated". I think it's clear the second bit of "evidence" can be thrown out entirely, as the OP never even bothered mentioning who he heard it from specifically or called them up to get a statement, but even if they did, people hear lots of things. Turns out, doesn't make it true just because someone opened their pie holes and said something. Now as for the board swap video: it it anomalous? Absolutely. I can't begin to imagine why that video exists. It serves no purpose, so I'm not sure why Billy decided to have that filmed. I do truly wish he would sack up and address why that video exists, as opposed to doing what he did and cowering out when asked about it. Having said that, what does the board swap video prove? How does a faked video show Billy cheated? It doesn't, at least as far as I'm aware. I've never heard one person correlate the existence of that video to him cheating. So my best guess (currently) for why it exists is maybe this was footage for King of Kong 2, or some other fake documentary. It's no surprise that the first film was just that, a movie. It may have been presented as a documentary, but just like with "reality" TV shows, it was staged. That could very easily explain why he would stage the board swap video, as sloppy as it was.
Six months later, the first piece of real evidence arrives: the girder finger. Now we are getting somewhere! That only exists in MAME, so Billy cheated, right?! Well, hold your horses, buddy! What was interesting about that is in the dispute thread, it was proven that such anomaly exists between versions X and Y of MAME (don't remember the version numbers by heart, it's just not that important to me to commit to memory, but it's easy enough for anyone to find). If we look at when the three videos were filmed, there would be nothing I could say against the idea that the 1.05 and 1.06 million tapes were filmed using MAME, but the 1.04 million tape was filmed several months before version X of MAME (the first version to show the girder finger artifact) was ever released! This fact was brought up in the dispute thread before, but was subsequently buried by thousands of hateful anti-Billy comments and thus was never evaluated. So what explains that? Was Billy secretly a programmer on the MAME project this whole time, or is he a time traveller? That would be the only ways you could explain how the 1.04 million tape exhibits the same anomaly as a version of MAME from months into the future. Nevertheless, the community (and you, by extension), labelled this MAME footage without ever considering the full facts.
You say Billy was given more than enough time to defend himself, but he was only given two months after the first real piece of evidence came out before he was deemed a cheater. The dispute thread had no time limit whatsoever to come up with actual evidence, but Billy was given a short and arbitrary time to explain his side. Now, put yourself in his shoes. Imagine being accused of something from years ago, and you have to defend yourself. If someone accused you of cheating, do you already have written statements prepared, just in case? Most likely not. So what did he have to do? Find the original equipment and send it out to be inspected and verified, find and scan receipts, find people who attended the events in question, track down said people and ask them to send him written and signed statements, and figure out a plausible defense or explanation as to why the girder finger exists. Do you really expect this to all happen in two months? How is it fair for the dispute to have NO evidence for six months, but Billy was expected to have everything done in two? At the very least, if you allow people to dispute scores at any time in the future no matter how old the scores are (which, for the record, I agree with), then you should also allow people who have been wrongly accused of cheating to submit evidence that clears their name no matter how long it takes. Does Billy have that chance to clear his name here?
As for evidence from Billy, he did submit an entire packet of evidence to TG and Guinness in September of last year. That packet of evidence is publicly available (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BMb...oQiuAdgcJ/view) and has been for the longest of time. Have you even taken a look at it? In addition to this, Guinness has done their own due diligence and came to the conclusion Billy is innocent after all. This investigation is independent of the evidence Billy provided. I encourage that evidence to be made public, and I don't ask that we just arbitrarily trust Guinness and their assessment, but their credibility is now on the line more than ever. Imagine the disaster it would be to their business to publicly defend a cheater. I doubt they would be willing to risk their reputation of a single dude, but I could be wrong. You might think it's because of the threat of a lawsuit, but that would only prove further that the conclusion that Billy Mitchell cheated is a false narrative. In the USA, there are laws against slander and libel, especially in cases where it impacts someone's ability to earn income. Whether you like his success or not, or whether you believe being a "celebrity" or "influencer" is a career or not, is entirely irrelevant; the fact is, Billy has made tons of income because of his records that were in question. As a result of being labelled a cheater, this directly impacts his ability to earn income. Billy has gone through lawful and legal means to clear his name. This is in contrast to others, such as the Immortal John Handcock, who abused the broken copyright system to silence his critics on YouTube. Has Billy abused the copyright system to take down the Apollo Legend videos?
Finally, what can I add to all this? Some knowledge of electronics. If I pick up a random 100 ohm resistor, it has four colored bands on it. One brown, one black, and another brown band indicate that in a perfect world, this resistor would have 100 ohms of resistance. The fourth band, however, is gold. This indicates a +-5% tolerance, so in reality, assuming the resistor is free of defect, that 100 ohm resistor might read anywhere from 95 ohms to 105 ohms. Even though your electronics may work just fine, they are, in fact, far from perfect, unless you get industrial grade components where that +-5% might cause a machine to swing and kill your coworker. No arcade cabinet was ever manufactured with industrial grade components, so all machines are off spec by some amount. This is especially true for older components that are not just worn, but also were manufactured many years ago when tolerances were looser and components were less efficient. The "investigation" done by Jace Hall never took a look at what the impact of those looser tolerances are, nor what impact age may have on a board, nor what would happen if just one failed component were replaced with a modern equivalent. So how was the investigation enough to convince you Billy cheated when it raises more questions than it answers? The investigation was not complete; they did the bare minimum to find one tiny flaw that wouldn't exist in a perfect world and deemed that enough to destroy a man's reputation. I am willing to bet anything that part of the evidence found by Guinness involves a more thorough probing of the equipment than TG was ever willing to do, which will most likely reveal that in fact it comes down to something that basic as the tolerances of electronics, but that is purely speculation. Even if they do post that evidence, would that finally be enough to convince you he's innocent? I remember everyone saying "well, if he is, he should just play the games again and show he's capable". He's done so, several times on his Twitch channel. So after this evidence is released, will the goal post be moved again? "I won't believe he's innocent until Billy submits to a polygraph exam, a DNA test, and colonoscopy to determine if he cheated"
A lot of careful research and analysis was done into this matter. It wasn't just a matter of 'there's something that only happens in MAME so that means it's fake.'
Furthermore, two months is more than enough time for Billy to at least make a statement to say that he could prove that it's legit and then take the time to present his evidence.
Also, your sarcasm at the end isn't helping your case either.
"A lot of careful research and analysis was done into this matter."
As someone who read every single page of the dispute thread, I'm well aware of the "research and analysis", and yet that still doesn't explain Billy Mitchell the Time Traveller, does it? And if it isn't about MAME, why does LITERALLY everyone continue with the narrative that it is? Because also notice, no one has thus far in the "careful research and analysis" been able to show even one frame of evidence in three videos to suggest he used MAME (under the assumption this would give him the benefit of using save states). Can you point me to that magic frame that shows he did use save states?
Sure, he could have put out a statement in those two months, but would he have been given the chance to present his side if it took him this long to come up with what he has so far? No. So why bother making a statement when he could better use the time finding actual evidence.
And I'm not here for any "case". Again, I don't know the guy, I don't have anything to gain by defending him. These are my observations, and my observations include the sarcasm because I find it absurd that no one is willing to listen to any side but the "Billy cheated" side. That time and time again, the goal posts kept getting moved around, originally from the two pieces of non-evidence, to the girder finger, to him playing live, to now we need more evidence. Again, I'm all for that evidence going public, but at some point, it's time for you guys to put down the pitchforks, reflect inward, and say "I'm sorry". I know that's a difficult thing to do, but even Tipster was able to congratulate Billy for being able to clear his name.
All of that you mentioned does not surprise me. And be careful, he likes to edit or delete posts on those that disagree, or simply question or mock his own motives (even in a friendly way, eg."so...so...so...so"... haha...)
He means well in spirit, but his rants and past temper tantrums are sometimes outright pathetic. ) In the end, him and some of his buddies are very vocal and outright jealous of Billy. For what reasons, I really do not have a clue why! People are who they are, and I do sometimes find it all VERY amusing actually! The Nibbler film (if you didnt watch it) IS VERY entertaining, and I would highly recommend it. Walter and Billy played their roles as well.
In my eyes, Billy is just one man, with a 1980's haircut, who (with Walter's help) promoted himself to the hills, playing a 40 year old video game that less than 1% of all the gaming population actually do care about. Billy is interesting say to the least. Its a character, nothing else. Easy to see, if you have the pleasure of meeting him, one CAN read between the lines.
If you do some research on the dispute itself here, you will find that Billy was never "accused" of cheating. He simply did not play on actual hardware. The punishment was harsh here, but justified in my opinion.
Carry on... :)
Welcome to Twin Galaxies.
Your passion and viewpoint are appreciated. I believe that most of the information you seem to be looking for is within the dispute thread so perhaps you may have overlooked something and can find it later, but if there is any specific question you would like to ask, please feel free to do so. The Twin Galaxies community encourages discussion and is always interested in getting more relevant information on any matter that it is concerned with.
If you have the time or interest in making a significant contribution, it would be very helpful if you (or anyone you can direct us to) could provide the community with any information that can definitively show how an unmodified original Donkey Kong Arcade PCB produces a direct feed recording to a VCR that displays all of the image characteristics and rasterization properties found in this particular video:
Example of one of the of the image characteristics and rasterization properties found in this particular video:
If this could be simply demonstrated by someone it would disprove Jeremy Young's dispute claim assertions of it being impossible to do. TG would immediately reverse its position in relation to this assertion made by Jeremy Young.
In theory, demonstrating this should not be that difficult. One would assume that it is just a matter of turning on an unmodified original Donkey Kong Arcade PCB and recording its output to a VCR.
As many in the community know we have tried to accomplish this ourselves with extensive efforts and still can not seem to produce a direct feed recording to a VCR that displays all of the image characteristics and rasterization properties found in the above video. Several unrelated 3rd parties have tried on their own and also seem to have run into similar challenges.
Here is an example of an unrelated 3rd party attempting to accomplish the goal even as recently as little over a month ago:
SET UP - https://forums.arcade-museum.com/sho...&postcount=365
RESULT - https://forums.arcade-museum.com/sho...&postcount=369
It's now been over 2 years and we continue to welcome all new information that may help.
For clarity, this specific matter has nothing to do with any evaluation of anyone's gameplay, or any person in general. The information that is being looked for is from a purely technical perspective.
From my examination of MAME versions, I can say that 0.35 < X <= 0.36. MAME 0.35 (July 4, 1999) does not have an option to overclock the cpu, but it's there by MAME 0.36 (March 22, 2000). There are 13 beta, and 2 release candidates in between.
By setting the CPU to 99%, the apparent video refresh frequency is proportionally bumped from 60 to 60.606 Hz, as the board is driven by a single clock, multiplied for use by the CPU and video circuitry. Note that 99/100 is exactly 60/60.60606060606 (repeating). By MAME 0.85 (August 7, 2004), you can explicitly set the video refresh to 60.606 Hz instead of underclocking the cpu.
The distinction between emulated video refreshes and dedicated arcade PCBs is broader than the girder finger, and arises out of the emulator's need to copy the emulated video memory to the host computer's actual video memory for display. The arcade PCB need only read that memory directly to produce a signal for the analog video output to the tube.
If the emulated video refresh is 60.606 Hz, the familiar girder finger begins to appear. In fact, other slight variations from 60 Hz will produce different characteristic artifacts. I'm not sure if it meets the proper definition, but those artifacts are reminiscent of aliasing effects.
Edited to add: CPU underclocking was brought up mid-March 2018, within the dispute thread.
I hate to say, you might want to go back and read through the dispute thread again (as you suggest we do with Billy's September 2019 evidence packet, which I assure you we have definitely done). At any rate, I'm happy to address a few points of interest:
Goal posts have never moved.
The board swap video, while suspicious, was not sufficient to remove the score (hence no activity on the dispute thread for months).
The MAME evidence, of which the girder finger is a part, was compelling in and of itself, and has never been sufficiently addressed.
Only casual observers suggested Billy could address this by playing live and "re-creating" his scores (which, I would note, he has still failed to do).
Which takes us back to the MAME evidence, which never "moved", and which Billy has still failed to address.
Two months was plenty of time for Billy to do the things you suggest. They were able to get a full technical analysis in that time. Billy was reportedly in contact with a number of his alleged witnesses from the old days. Does it really take a whole day to track down one witness? To have a quick chat, write up a signing statement for them and email it to them to sign? I'm doing all this on my free time strictly out of a desire to see truth prevail. Surely, if one has the motivation of defending one's supposedly legitimate gaming achievements, that would be extra motivation to have that documentation ready to be provided. (To that end, how come we have still never seen Billy's "original" tapes to be reviewed?)
There's no real indication, other than their word, that Guinness has done any due diligence whatsoever. I don't consider them independent when A) they have a longstanding history with Billy and Walter Day, and B) they were subjected to threat of lawsuit if their "investigation" did not provide the desired outcome. Billy is within his legal right to pursue litigation, but why not publish this evidence, allow interested parties to come to their own conclusion, and maybe reserve the right to litigation to a future time?
Exactly how much are you willing to bet Guinness' "investigation" involved "a more thorough probing of the equipment than TG was ever willing to do"? We have pretty thorough documentation of the hardware analysis by both Jace Hall and Chris Gleed. If Guinness did hardware tests, why were they not published? I see no indication the people at Guinness were so much as in the same building as a Donkey Kong cabinet at any time. What Guinness cited was "newly sourced eyewitness testimony, plus some new expert game play analyses and hardware verification" (each of which I'd be happy to address). To the point, they don't even claim to have done the hardware research done by parties in this dispute, all of whom came to the conclusion that the video seen on Billy's tapes could not have come from authentic arcade hardware. There's no reason for others to claim Guinness took measures Guinness themselves won't claim to have done.
As for the method of cheating, people have been reluctant to discuss specifics for what I hope are obvious reasons. We don't necessarily know the precise methodology used (nor was it necessary to prove that methodology in order to prove the tapes were not produced as claimed). The most likely method was an input playback, where an "input" file is replayed. This is a legitimate MAME feature for recreational use and for evaluating competitive submissions, but also could be used to replay an illegitimately produced "input" file while the player claims to be playing it live. (This is like speedrun cheaters who pretend to play TASes live.) This would show no splices, and none of the obvious instances of save state use you allude to.
And that brings us to the infamous "Girder Finger". I'd been considering writing up a brief history of Mr. Girder Finger. I believe this should answer your questions:
The "Girder Finger" was not an identified aspect of the original MAME evidence published on February 2, 2018. It was there, you could see it, but people had not identified that element specifically. What was identified was that MAME drew to the game board in a significantly different way than authentic arcade. This was true across each of the four game "boards" (barrel, conveyor, elevator, rivet). You can go back to page 19 to review the totality of the evidence across each of the game boards:
The critical barrel board screens, are as follows. MAME:
Arcade direct feed, via Chris Gleed:
And Billy's two surviving tapes:
Look again on pgae 19 and see that no specific reference was made to the "girder finger".
The core dispute was simply that MAME does not load screens in the way arcade does. Rather than just looking at similarities and differences, it helps to understand why this is the case. Both systems draw to a video buffer in the same way, but MAME draws from that buffer in snapshots, while arcade does so in a left-to-right sweep. A good illustration of this effect was posted by bh, which you can see here:
To be clear, this isn't a manufacturing error, nor is it a simple matter of resistor tolerance. They didn't produce three random Donkey Kong cabinets in fundamentally different ways such that three different scores of Billy's, years apart, on three different machines, all showed each of several MAME signatures while never showing a definitive arcade identifier, with this phenomenon never happening to anyone else ever. This is a fundamental difference in the process of MAME and arcade. No connection to a VCR is going to change this, not that dispute participants didn't attempt it anyway just to confirm the results.
As to the girder finger, it still wasn't a specifically cited element of the case against Mr. Mitchell until almost a month after the February 2 MAME evidence presentation.
On February 28, in comment #1570 of the dispute, Asterra attached an illustration of a particular item to look for, stating "What you're looking for is underscored here." Asterra named the image "right here":
In the following reply on the following page, Omega175 remarked:
FBX later down the page, in elaborating on the MAME evidence package as a proverbial "smoking gun", added to this notion of a "girder finger":Quote:
This is as if the game gives Billy Mitchell "the finger." lol
From this first bit of traction, it took off. Asterra's image was reposted by Wes Copeland on page 172, and Muf on page 173. The "girder finger" would also sometimes be called the "girder tail", such as on March 13, 2018, when DK competitor Wes Copeland offered a $1000 bounty to anyone capable of reproducing the "girder tail" on arcade hardware:Quote:
That 'finger' on the girder effectively screams out "Billy used MAME", and there's no getting around it.
But "girder finger" became the surviving parlance. Asterra's image would often circle around other off-site locations as sort of a singular smoking gun, one particular item which Billy's people could not explain.
Naturally, it became the centerpiece of a number of jokes and memes as well:
But the important point of this is that the "Girder Finger" was not the only aberration found, nor was it even considered particularly relevant at the time. In fact, as Billy's people rightly pointed out later, versions of MAME which showed the girder finger by default were not released until after Billy's earlier scores (the key words here being "by default"). This was, again, because the people assembling this evidence were not using the girder finger as a smoking gun. We were being asked to view the totality of these transition screens, and how MAME fundamentally functions differently from arcade. The important observation, at that time, was that MAME's screen had two full girders and one partial, while arcade had five partial girders. (And that's just on the barrel board.) The reason different eras of MAME drew slightly differently was because tiny little settings (such as decimals of refresh rates) were being fiddled with along the way. Once this discrepancy of MAME release dates was pointed out, it took mere hours to track down. It was a simple matter to adjust the refresh rate of earlier versions of MAME to match what was likely the refresh rate of original arcade, and thus the girder finger appeared on those earlier versions as well. Billy's tapes still matched MAME in several ways, based on several different MAME identifiers on dozens of occasions, including (when altering the refresh rate) the "girder finger". In contrast, no unique arcade identifier can be found even once across any of Billy's tapes. They do not match arcade in any way.
If you'd like to know more on the overwhelming evidence against Billy Mitchell, I did a pretty exhaustive write-up over at Donkey Kong Forum:
i actually agree with alot of what skarkeylaser said, so dont take my focusing on the disagreement to mean i disagree with all, theres just no point regurgitating the agreed upon points
i'd like to talk about the claim billy wasnt given enough time. I would hope its understood you cant give infinite time. But, jace did offer to extend the deadline for billy. Billy at least never made any formal public statement until after the resolution, if he discussed anything privately with jace obvioulsy the rest of us dont know about it. Joel West certainly seemed to be talking on billy's behalf, as they're friends, where on shows together discussing the dispute, and billy never contradicted joel's claims i have to assume joel really was speaking for billy. Billy could've of course made this simliar by speaking for himself, but it is what it is
anyway, joel asked for an extension and was given it. Joel missed the deadline by a few days if i recall, but jace still waited those days. Joel then made very clear they would sue if the scores were removed and they would not be turning over evidence since it makes no sense to give your legal opponent information about an upcoming lawsuit. Once it was made clear the team would be turning over no additional evidence why wait any longer? they were done with the dispute, they were done trying to defend and moved on to the lawsuit angle. both sides agreed there was nothing more to discuss.
I do recall discussion back in 2018 that the MAME version that existed at the time of the 1.047 million score couldn't draw the girder finger - the news circulated widely within 24 hours or so (I think it was brought up by Triforce and others at the Kong Off 6 Billy Mitchell Dispute Panel / Arcade Expo 4.0). However, there was more to that development. Other TG members confirmed that versions of MAME available at the time of the 1.047 million score could in fact display the girder finger following an adjustment to the software's refresh rate setting.
In addressing the fact that earlier versions of MAME could ultimately display the girder finger with this game setting adjustment, it was then argued in the Billy Mitchell Evidence Package (September 2019) that “there is no logical alternative explanation of why Billy Mitchell, or somebody working for him, would have changed the refresh rate to 60.6Hz, if he was playing MAME…The 60.6hz refresh rate does not match the arcade settings, meaning it would only create differences between MAME and the arcade, which would be stupid for someone to do if they were trying to pass off MAME as arcade.”
In fact, the refresh rate adjustment is a common experience in the MAME community for the simple reason that gamers are a demanding lot and wanted to create a gameplay experience as close to the arcade original as possible. Many classic arcade games run at 60.6Hz, including Donkey Kong. Failure to make this adjustment can result in gameplay stuttering, which would directly impact the quality of the game and of any recording output from it. Discussions about tweaking settings by MAME users for the ideal arcade experience stretch back to MAME's first release in 1997 - here's an exchange on alt.games.mame from 2003 that discusses gameplay issues related to improper refresh rates, and possible solutions including different MAME flavors:
People here absolutely have recourse to share new information after a dispute review decision is rendered; there is no benefit to the TG or wider gaming community to stand pat and defend a wrong decision for the sake of defending a wrong decision. Like you, I would really like to see the evidence that Guinness used and that it be made public, especially since any new evidence they examined would be directly relevant to TG's consideration of the matter as well. In fact, it seems counter-intuitive not to share the information publicly.
What Billy Mitchell wanted most was all his Guinness world records back in the book and he got it.
With Guinness book of world records he will be remember for years to come.
Twin Galaxies is just about reputation.
Twin Galaxies member Dispute Discussion: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800 it tarnished reputation, it made him look bad in the gaming community & world wide, then people looked at him differently not as a idol but as someone that cheated just to gain a record by any means,that he resorted to using MAME for Arcade game Donkey Kong & Billy Michell was embarrassed, his invincible armor was broken.
The evidence of the finger changed all that, funny can you imagine the karmais a word meaning the result of a person's actions as well as the actions themselves. It is a term about the cycle of cause and effect. According to the theory of Karma, what happens to a person, happens because they caused it with their actions. but this time he got the finger.
he beliefs or opinions that are generally held about someone or something."his reputation was tarnished by allegations that he had taken bribes"
a widespread belief that someone or something has a particular habit or characteristic.
Billy is not looking on getting his records back on Twin Galaxies but pay back vengence to hurt Twin Galaxies If he wins money, having Twin Galaxies pay all court cost, attonry fee, damages of reputation etc. and whatever he that was agreed upon after the verdict.
On versions of MAME:
On this thread on post 156 and 157:
I did post for those that want to investigate into OTHER versions of non-standard MAME that do enable the gamer to set refresh rate and graphics rendering at lower level than standard MAME versions/ports.
So to look at standard MAME comparison is not sufficient - if one really wants to find the needle in the haystack you have to look at the non-standard MAME ports as well.
On Graphics Rendering:
Would be fantastic if someone else that can read Z80 program code or really understood and explain in better means than I do
(below), how arcade render the images from provided sprites from the PCB to the CRT in the exact steps.
In summary from my understanding "way back then, please correct me where my memory fade me...):
In essence rendering in arcade machine is not 100% the same as PC/Mac.
In Z80 program code the exact memory addresses are pointed to what small "snippet/raster image" must contain/hold at that memory location. Each sub-image must certain sprites - therefore building up the larger image what must be / to be displayed
at the exact memory starting at a specific memory address for that sprite.
So it is impossible for Arcade to starts render an image one memory block left from original offset as in the case of MAME.
Girder finger starts one position or more positions from original memory address offset because the whole image was
flushed to the screen as a whole.
When one look at Arcade the screen point position at memory code and sprite position in memory code always match
and can go in an offset position but not producing a bleeding image sprite but the "small sprite itself".
See here examples what can go wrong with Donkey Kong video.
Example of sprites in incorrect places from above URL.
A .pdf attached as DonkeyKongGraphicGlitches.pdf in case the URL get lost.
You will see the only means to reproduce is to have faulty ROM or RAM chips (depends upon the chip):
"Replace each ROM file used by the game PCB with a "faulty" ROM file that contained all ones. So, one by one, one would save a copy the original ROM file, then overwrite it with a "faulty" ROM file of the same size, but that contained. Then one would run the game and see what happened. Assuming the game would function, one would then take various snapshot images of that particular failure and note down what matched with which chip failures. "
So as one person mention hardware do have margin of error but in the case of Arcade PCB, the chip is either working or not working or voltages and pins on chips can be "shorted" which can made sprites go off the offset of the memory block but not "bleeding a partial image like a "finger". No partial staircase or finger sprite exist in DK at all only small inner whole sprites that makes up that one WHOLE image to be drawn at a SPECIFIC memory location.
Although it appears to have stalled before completion, there is quite a bit of information here in a commented disassembly of the arcade Donkey Kong roms:
Also, here is an interesting article about using MAME's debugger:
I'm uncertain if its a debugger for CPUs emulated by MAME, or just a debugger for MAME itself. I'm guessing the latter, which would still be useful, but not as surgical as being able to set watches and breakpoints in the rom's code. More on this later.
Edited to add: Ok, I should have taken half a minute to read my link above. The debugger is for MAME's process, not the virtual process being emulated.
It has already been addressed elsewhere in this thread, but I wanted to briefly comment on this speculation:
A Donkey Kong PCB is a purpose-built digital computer. Although inputs and outputs could be analog, the logic of its operation is entirely discrete, and does not need "tuning" the way an analog computer might. Although failed and out-of-spec components can effect the computer's operation, not in a way that would so radically alter its rendering order, as we see in those fraudulent video tapes.
I probably should not attempt an analogy here, but it's a bit like suspecting gritty pencil lead might cause an applicant to accidentally enlist in the army when they were attempting to be hired by a McDonald's franchisee.
I'm surprised nobody has commented on exactly what Bill's legal team's 40 Page Document is stating and wanting removed in a potential case and in contrast TG's Reply with Text Message hard evidence of the contrary.
This is laughable if it doesn't get thrown out immediately.
i'm working through it, i do have some questions but i'm not asking yet since perhaps they'll be answered later with in the papers. I have noticed more names being named. If those people read it i can definitley see them voicing disapproval.
It's late, and I'm still trying to dig through all this stuff, but something just has to be posted. Here's a few things I snagged out of the 41-page Billy declaration. This is NOT a comprehensive list of everything relevant in that declaration. Just some easy and fun target practice. Each of the blockquote items comes from Billy's declaration.
My most successful start-up occurred in my hot sauce company called “Rickey’s Hot Sauce.” I started the company in 1980, building it into a successful small business in the State of Florida. I continued to grow the company from 1980 to the present day.
Not gonna waste much time on this, but I'm pretty sure there's a ton of documentation back in the day where it's referred to as his "father's" restaurant. Also, Billy was born in 1965. You do the math.
Twin Galaxies verified my Pac-man record through on-site referee adjudication via the Funspot Arcade staff.
Were there any TG staff referees on site for his impromptu, unannounced, mad dash in the night attempt at nabbing the first perfect Pac-Man? Did a ref, like stand and watch him play or anything?
On February 14, 2018, Jason Hall officially engaged Mr. Chris Gleed as his “third-party” investigator, who possessed no qualifications beyond that of a casual videogame
Chris Gleed created his own direct feed setup (an ACTUAL direct feed setup) before it was cool. Pretty sure he was qualified.
Also, at the Donkey Kong World Championships, the allegations against me became materially impossible. Hall, Young, and the Dispute Thread alleged that I utilized “MAME” emulation in my records. However, the specific version of MAME was not created until AFTER I achieved my 1,047,200 record. I believed this discovery absolved me of the allegations, and proved that the lost chain-of-custody videotapes were altered. However, Jason Hall assisted the Dispute Thread in fabricating explanations in an effort to circumvent this fact; nevertheless, these explanations failed to refute the discovery.
They're really still repeating this tripe? When the discrepancy was pointed out, people figured out pretty quickly a simple refresh rate change syncs older MAME up exactly with the screens on Billy's tapes, which regardless never came anywhere close to what arcade produces.
Hall then inserted the tape, and the videotape clearly displayed my Pac-Man world record game. Unlike the Donkey Kong videotape, the Pac-Man videotape shows my physical appearance, and my audio is present in the footage. At the 15 minute mark, Mr. Glen Updike stated, “Hey, look there is [Billy’s] reflection on the screen,” and at the 17 minute mark, Mr. Mat McGill noted, “You can hear Billy playing,” meaning that my voice was clearly audible on the videotape. Furthermore, several other participants generally asserted that the videotape clearly belonged to me. Despite his entire audience pointing out these facts, Hall ignored them, electing to answer different questions. After roughly 15 minutes, Hall quietly removed the Pac-Man videotape, and never provided public access to it thereafter.
Billy goes on and on in his declaration about Jace being unwilling to praise Billy for his Pac-Man tape. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, other than perhaps his own insecurity.
However, within a few days, Mr. Neil Hernandez debunked this claim, producing the correct color with the converter board.
Hmmmm.... pretty sure this came up in the EGM article last year. Let's see...
Sure, they produced color, as long as someone stood there and pressed on the converter board the entire time. I wonder if that counts as a modification of the set-up Rob Childs claimed he used and then later said he never knew anything about?
Guinness World Records announced the full reinstatement of my records on June 18, 2020. Guinness World Records reinstated my records based upon the same evidence which Twin Galaxies ignored in its original investigation and the retraction demand. (See Exhibit 18).
Another confirmation that Guinness didn't rule on any special secret evidence, which we've already gone through. Also Twin Galaxies didn't "ignore" the retraction demand or the attached evidence. They posted it to the dispute thread. We all reviewed it. It didn't impress. It failed to address the core dispute assertions. People were unconvinced.
As a result, I issued Twin Galaxies a second retraction demand on June 18, 2018.
Pretty sure he meant 2020, but whatever. Years are hard.
Shortly after Guinness World Records reinstated of my records, Ars Technica wrote an article titled, “Guinness Reinstates Billy Mitchell’s Pac-Man, Donkey Kong Records.” In the article, Jason Hall responded to a request for comment, where he sent a meme of Kermit the Frog sipping tea as an adolescent insult, showing how little he cares about the truth and how little he cares about the impact Twin Galaxies’ statements have had on me.
Really? This is childish. And no, I don't mean Jace using a figurative way of saying "None of my business" while under a lawsuit. I mean what Billy wrote is a childish characterization coming from a grown man.
employing a clearly biased third party investigator;
Billy's talking about Chris Gleed here. Cute use of the word "employing", as I don't believe Gleed was ever paid for his assistance to the dispute. Gleed offered to help. Not sure why it's a problem to have an additional investigator, even if they did start out thinking "Yeah, this dude's probably guilty." Maybe, instead of complaining about Chris Gleed's secret vendetta against you, you could just show how genuine arcade renders screens like MAME.
Hall hid the Pac-Man videotape for two reasons: 1) The videotape would have provided me undisputed evidence to publicly refute the Twin Galaxies allegations; and 2) I would have utilized the videotape as evidence for Guinness World Records to justify a reinstatement of my Pac-Man record. Hall clearly wanted to avoid any public relations nightmares for Twin Galaxies, and as a result, he elected to bury the videotape from the public eye.
This is, like mental illness territory. Nobody cares about your Pac-Man score, dude. The tape would have refuted absolutely nothing to do with the DK dispute. There would have been no embarrassment by Guinness reinstating just the Pac-Man thing, if they had chosen to, no more than it embarrasses TG for Donkey Kong Forum to recognize your old DK score of 933k. TG was within their rights to ban you from competition across the board.
On or about March 12, 2018, Hall called Walter Day to ask, “How will you feel when I announce that Billy cheated?”
Ooooh, spicy! But this is coming from Walter Day, so who knows if it's true.
In its investigation, Twin Galaxies selected a long-time member of the accusatory group, Jeremy Young’s Donkey Kong Forum, to shepherd the investigation as a “third-party” investigator.
This is so patently, ridiculously, absurdly false it is beyond belief. Jeremy opened the dispute in August 2017 on the basis of the fake board swap video, and it gained no traction until the MAME evidence in February. TG never "selected" him. Billy knows this. It's a bald-faced lie.
In Gleed’s entire period as the “third-party investigator,” he never contacted me for evidentiary inquiry or provided me an opportunity to defend myself.
Yeah, I don't want to talk to you either, you ******* cheater. Nor do I enjoy sitting and listening to a conman in a suit tell me a bunch of lies. Now, if I was an adjudicating official, sure, I would sit and hear you out, no matter how skeptical I was, because I'm not derelict in my duty. You'd have to set forth some compelling evidence in the face of what we were presented in the dispute, but I'd certainly hear you out, if that was my role. Jace heard you out. But since I'm not a score adjudicator, and since I'm not the one making the final call, and since you have a public forum to make your case or add evidence yourself, I'll spare myself the ocular damage of containing my eyerolls as you try to convince me Dwayne Richard flew in on a magic carpet to draw little MAME signatures all over your tapes. You put evidence before the public, and I'll consider it - conversations with you not required.
Gleed’s position as a “third-party” investigator represents a single-piece of the onesided, pre-ordained investigation from Twin Galaxies. Hall engaged Gleed, who possessed no qualification beyond that of a casual hobbyist, in order to present legitimacy to his investigation. However, Gleed simply acted a pawn to facilitate the Twin Galaxies sham investigation.
This stuff is wild. He just keeps going on about Chris Gleed.
During the Twin Galaxies investigation, yet another observer, Mr. David Race, took it upon himself to research the allegations against me in an effort to disprove them.
Billy never gets around to adding that David Race now thinks Billy lied.
Lastly, the Twin Galaxies Special Motion to Strike intentionally misrepresents the Twin Galaxies “voting system” to support its allegations. The motion claims that 211 users “voted to adjudicate the score dispute (198 agreeing with the dispute, and 13 disagreeing).” Twin Galaxies clearly fabricates this narrative to falsely portray that its decision possessed legitimacy. However, Jason Hall himself previously stated that the voting system possesses no influence on the adjudication of the score dispute, but “only guarantees that [Twin Galaxies] administration MUST review the claim.”
This is like some weird framing. This isn't some surprise bomb revelation. This isn't a big "gotcha" moment. We all know how the dispute process works. It's not a secret. And yes, it is somewhat relevant that the vast majority of users voted to approve the dispute, even if they aren't the deciding factor. Although, that's not nearly as relevant as the fact that your tapes, including the one you presented yourself in 2010, could not have been produced by authentic arcade hardware.
To the contrary, as shown in thorough documentation, I incurred $951,236 in special damages.
*puts pinky on lip* ONE MEELLEEON DOLLARS
Other events forced me to settle for less money, such as Southern Fried Gaming Expo.
Oh, you poor thing. An event which you eagerly attended for the opportunity to do your little presentation where you waved a stack of papers around, paid you less than they usually do.
As a result of the Twin Galaxies statements, company revenue dropped to $410,267 in 2018. A true and correct copy of a summary of Rickey’s Hot Sauces Sales from 2018 is attached as Exhibit 56. Monetary damages continued in 2019, resulting in $364,435 more in special damages. A true and correct copy of a summary of Rickey’s Hot Sauces Sales from 2019 is attached as Exhibit 57. The documentation proves $750,236 in special damages to my company. I calculated these numbers by simply subtracting the 2017 revenue from the 2018 and 2019 revenues, respectively.
Gosh, I wonder if that had anything to do with the state of Billy's website. This is what Rickey's home page looked like on March 2, 2018, courtesy of Wayback Machine:
Here's what the active page looked like when I went there on April 7, 2018:
Woah! That doesn't look good. Surely that got corrected soon, right?
Okay.... website maintenance? That was my screencapture from May 14, 2018. Surely that would be fixed by the end of the year.
Nope. February 2, Groundhog Day, 2019, website still down.
The months go by. We get that silly evidence packet of Billy's in September. Say, I wonder if the site's back up yet:
Nope. That was September 19, 2019. Well, SURELY the site is back up by now, right?
Oh, good. It's finally back up. Although.... looking more closely, when I put "800hotsauce" in Google, it actually took me to the "About" page. What happens if I click on that little link on the left side that says "Home"?
Seriously. That's what you see right now, still, to this day, when you click on this link:
Check it out for yourself here on Wayback Machine:
The site worked fine, until about halfway through the 2018 dispute - so mid-March. His website's been a holding page for over two years. And now he's suing and trying to claim it was all Jace's fault his business lost money.
Say.... You don't... suppose he... deliberately... sabotaged... his own...... NOOO!! Billy's psycho, but nobody's THAT screwed up in the head. Perish the thought.
In total, combining the damages incurred to my videogame career and hot sauce company, I suffered $951,236 in special damages. The damages occurred in a booming economy and there is no argument that Twin Galaxies bears the responsibility for these special damages.
I.... I'm not sure that means what you intended?
One may ask, “Why would Twin Galaxies do it?” The answer is simple. It all occurred in an effort to generate internet “clicks,” attention, and revenue for Twin Galaxies. Twin Galaxies received only 75,000 site visits in August 2017. From August to January, it created a public spectacle out of the Todd Rogers investigation, which raised its monthly site visits to roughly 1,000,000. Coincidentally, it initiated an investigation against me just days after, which rose its average site visits to 2,500,000 in April 2018. Attached as Exhibit 58 is a true and correct copy of a graph showing the Twin Galaxies Website Traffic from August 2017 to April 2018.
This was brought up when the dispute was reopened September 2019, and it was quickly pointed out that the TG dispute thread did not have ads at the time, and thus did not generate revenue. Notice how he tries to suggest the same thing now, but now he dances around where this revenue is coming from. Also, TG didn't "initiate" the DK dispute. It actually was a coincidence. Narcissism, it's a hell of a drug.
It's my understanding that David Race has devoted a lot of time to delving into the history of arcade Pac-Man competition, so he might be able to shed light on other sources I haven't come across or considered.
Mitchell achieved the perfect game on 3 July 1999 at 4:45pm EST.
Walter Day issued a press release dated 4th of July 1999 about Mitchell's score:
In the release, Funspot supplied the camcorder/tapes used for the recording, and while Funspot staff were undoubtedly present and observed at least portions of Mitchell's game and presumably the split screen - perfect score moment (Mitchell started his attempts on July 2 I believe, and I recall spent the entire day at Funspot playing Pac-Man), I haven't read any contemporaneous reports where Funspot staff were identified as surrogate TG referees.
TG's own metadata on the achievement circa 2006 cites the date of achievement and verification as 3 July 1999 and the official verification method as video.
Walter Day has provided a clarification around about the circumstances of the 1,047,200 score (see footnote 1 - "Letter to Guinness"). Recall that Mitchell's September 2019 Evidence Packages cites in several places that it was never an official submission:
It's still not clear to me whether Mitchell still stands behind his earlier Evidence Package statements (which would effectively require him to surrender claim to Guinness' first verified million point score on DK), or where Walter stands vis-a-vis the ceremony in Hollywood FL in March 2006 crowning Mitchell the new DK champion in view of his 1,047,200 score.
The update can be found on page 16 of the pdf (page 5 of Day's statement, pg 14 of the overall package) here:
For comparison, the original statement from Day ("Letter to Guinness") shared in September 2019 can be found here:
"Regarding the statement that Billy Mitchell didn't submit his tape for verification to Twin Galaxies. At the time that Billy Mitchell's tape of his 1,047,200 point score on Donkey Kong was taken down by Robert Mruczek, Billy was fine with the score not being recognized by Twin Galaxies. As the months wore on, I witnessed Billy vacillate between "approving" and "disapproving" the score's removal. His vacillations were greatly caused by the huge psychological pressure that the King of Kong movie were putting on him, me, and others. The score remained unrecognized for about 240 days while Steve Wiebe continued to enjoy recognition on the scoreboard. I recall numerous times that Billy actually would advise us not to recognize the score, while there were different times that Billy did inquire about the score being reinstated. However, never once, as well as I can remember, did he take action to get it reinstated. Billy Mitchell categorically denies Robert Mruczek's assertion that Billy sent him the videotapes via mail. I believe that Billy's inference that he never submitted the tape for verification has truth, because I believe his assertion that he never mailed Mruczek the videotape. I hope this explains the genesis of this."
Jace, thank you for posting the publicly available filings, including all documents, details and evidence in the dispute thread for community review. The costs for obtaining these public documents for an individual (a fee I understand that is charged by the court to recoup the cost of providing them) quickly adds up, so I appreciate the opportunity to review them.
You indicated that these are all the public filings, so I wanted to confirm that the contents of the original Mitchell Evidence Package, including the series of signed statements offered therein, did not form an official court submission/disclosure from Mitchell's lawyers? I see a series of updated declarations from Mitchell's lawyers in the filings you shared, but at least a few are missing from the original Evidence Package, such as the statements from Robert Childs as another TG member pointed out to me.
I see what you mean about that added footnote. That wasn't there with the threat packet last year. Man, they just want to have it both ways, don't they? "He didn't submit it, but he did, but he really didn't, but he still kiiiinda did, except not."
One wonders, if Billy wanted that score to count so badly, why didn't he just take a weekend, go somewhere with a lot of actual gaming witnesses and actual cameras like E3 or PAX, and just smash out a score on his first or second try? Like he always said, his real PB was much higher. And the insane pace charts on those totally-real tapes proves he could do it. /s
Also, if Billy never sent Mruczek the tape, WHERE THE HELL DID HE GET IT FROM!?!?!?!? Did he conjure it out of thin freakin' air!? (Oh, that's right. Dwayne and his time machine can do anything.)
Also, you could argue that Walter Day misrepresents the nature of "Exhibit A" by suggesting that the letter, as it is seen in "Exhibit A", is a representative copy of the same document and same evidence/testimony that was presented to Jace, who he accuses of disregarding it. Like, what if that footnote was the missing piece that would have totally changed Jace's mind? Day didn't include that, even though he's now suggesting he did.
Like Johnny Cash, I'm takin' it one piece at a time. There's a lot of little things I want to check on later in Todd Rogers' statement (signed October 20, 2019, so after the legal threat), but for now, a couple items stood out:
That's what they call "hearsay", my dude. You really think you're going to fool a judge with that?
That's a pretty brazen thing to sign under penalty of perjury. You all just insist on blaming Jace for everything! Even if you Billy buds didn't just take the bag of tapes home yourselves, even if they were left in the custody of unidentified TG people as you all claim, how could their disappearance be the fault of a TG administration that didn't begin for another four years? (Wait wait, I know.... Dwayne.)
This is from Kimberly "Morningdove" Mahoney's statement:
Wait, I thought the story was that the machine was padlocked? How exactly were you able to confirm the machine was running on original, unmodified hardware? Did you have the key? Are you just guessing?
If you want a good laugh, look at Mitchell's declaration exhibits (the recent 241-page one), go to "Exhibit 20" on page 69, titled "Chain of Custody Brief". Whoo, this thing is a real hoot! Let's check out some highlights:
First up, we're back on the classic "Dwayne did it." They're not even beating around the bush, they're just like straight up "Dwayne altered Billy's tapes to frame him!" Also, check out that first sentence. It sure makes it sound like TG was out to get Billy before they even had the evidence to do so. Of course, in reality, this was all initiated by the publication of the MAME evidence by Jeremy Young. TG simply started looking into the matter once that evidence was published, and that included tracking down the tapes.
Now we're gettin' to the good stuff! Yes, yes, added frames, gray border. Somehow the sketchiness of Billy's tapes gets twisted into proof someone edited them after the fact, and not proof they were bogus in the first place.
Hahahahaha! This is wild! "Well, just because the game play is the same doesn't mean someone didn't unreel his VHS tape and use some sort of magic tool to draw little MAME signatures all over the transition frames. Nor does it mean they didn't rip the tape to their computer, edit frames in a video editor to draw little MAME signatures over each and every transition, while making sure these edited transitions are all consistent with the VHS quality of the surrounding playback, plus adding several other MAME identifiers while never missing an arcade transition or an arcade signature (like "rivet ramp" or "bonus before barrel") anywhere, and then re-recording it to the VHS without any loss in quality." Next they're going to try and tell us someone recreated all of Billy's exact game play and game RNG in a 2.5 hour MAME playthrough, while saying "tHiS iS nOt aN iNsUrMoUnTaBlE tAsK".
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!! Did they really just say that last part? "The load screens are too quick for the human eye, so how could anyone really tell the difference that easily? Also, you'd think someone would've seen this and brought it up years ago!" Don't tell me they let Billy Jr write this sh*t again. XD
But no, they're still on this whole "TG lost the custody, Dwayne altered the tapes, You're trying to compare it to 2005 King of Kong footage even though you never see transition screens." Gosh, if only we had footage of Billy's tapes from 2005, which current TG never touched, which Dwayne never touched, and which did show transition screens. If only...
Well, we don't have 2005, so I guess we'll have to settle for the footage we have from 2006:
Funny how Billy never gets around to addressing this. It's like it didn't even happen.
"Type to enter a caption"?
I mean, it's a little more polished than the Sept 2019 legal threat. There's not, like pages upside-down and sh*t. But still, did they actually do a once-over before hitting "Send"?
If it's not speculation, then it's a 'he said-she said' which proves that someone is not telling the truth. Either way, I'd say Billy's case isn't as solid as he'd like to think.
having witnesses, i dont care if its millions of witnesess, if none of them vouch for you, then they arent "witnesses". just the fact people were there in no way lets us know what those people would testify seeing.
being in the location doesnt mean you actually witnessed the event
witnesses the event, but not testifying doesnt mean the witness supports your version
further, and this is very relevant for games, seeing someone play/witnesseing doesnt mean you saw or know enough about the game to vouch for it. for example, did the witness just walk by for a minute? did they see the player play but never see the score? never see proper setting? how can they know the tapes and score from the event they saw match the entered score in question?
something that really reminded of this was one of billy's witnesses, no i wont be saying names. not just cause we all have to careful with legal stuff, but because i'm bringing this up more as a general point for other scores by other players
i was in one of the facebook arguments over a year ago on billy's score. one of the people witnesses the pacman -- cool i dont think any of deny the pacman. well sometime later for billys perfect pacman attempt, billy failed, hit the split screen, and this same person started celebrating pointing out how billly did the perfect again. othes pointed out bily didnt get it and would need to try again. he asked what the difference was, as long as you make it to the kill screen isnt the score the same? so this person (and again not shaming them, not doubting their character, just pointing out not all viewers are valid witnesses for gameplay) could watch a game and think a perfect pacman score was achieved when it clearly wasnt. didnt even know what the perfect score was or that invisible dots even exist. I think that shows pretty well how an honest person can truly witness something, but not quite know what they're witnesses
so in reality, all any of these witnesses prove is that yes, they saw the player playing the game of that name. setting, score, and rules arent really "witnessed"
Thanks for sharing the results of your review, ersatz_cats.
As you mentioned earlier, the GWR decision is woven through a lot of the Mitchell documents. Although it's relevance isn't clear to me in the context of the legal action, I'm nonetheless curious about the extent and scope of Guinness' review.
For example, in the course of their investigation how did Guinness reconcile recognizing Mitchell as the first million point Donkey Kong player with his score of 1,047,200 when Mitchell declared in the very same package that he doesn't submit video taped world records, that the 1,047,200 score was never an official submission, that it was for entertainment purposes only?
Were they troubled by contemporaneous TG forum posts from Walter who explained that RTM would verify the 1,047,200 tape when Walter later declared that Mitchell only submits live world records?
How did Guinness react to Robert Childs statement that he created a video that was uploaded to his YouTube channel on the same day that Mitchell announced his world records at the 2010 IVGHOF entitled "After DK record Billy Mitchell goes for donkey kong junior record" that showed Childs swapping out PCBs at Boomers in Mitchell's presence (stated to be DK replaced by DK Jr by Childs before he decided to remove the video dialogue and replace it with classical music) but was in fact the same DK Jr PCB the entire time - a video that was apparently intended to be a promotional video done in the form of a near satire, information that was only divulged 8 years later ("you want to know what the fake board swap video was? It was a YouTube moment") in response to a direct question by Apollo Legend who travelled 3300 miles to do so at Childs' Florida arcade showroom during the height of the dispute?
I know the core focus is on the technical (scientific) evidence concerning the use of original unmodified arcade PCB, but I would be interested in learning more about Guinness' methodology since the role of witness testimony was highlighted in their press release for reinstating the scores.
So coming full circle, I was struck by what wasn't included in the new declarations as well as by what was found there - particularly in the latter case where, for example, arguments presented in Mitchell's collection of documents appear to (in my opinion) uphold and validate TG's approach to the witnesses statements contained in the original Evidence Package.
I got a question out of curiosity.......
If the court accepts that Mitchells declaration is in fact a "false claim" (as per the TG evidence above) does that mean that Mitchell could be charged with perjury?
Also, if there happen to be many proven "false claims" does that mean many charges of perjury?
What's the penalty for perjury in the USA?
According to a law firm's website in California:
"Committing or suborning perjury in California is a felony and is punishable by up to four years in jail."
OK. Thanks for the info.
I'm pretty old and spent a lot of time in a mining town. I know a hell of a lot of peeps that have been to jail.
They ALL give the same feedback (those I still speak/spoke to).......
1.....there's free food (if another inmate doesn't take it off of you)
2.....theres free accommodation (guaranteed)
3.....there's free sex (guaranteed)
4.....the above applies regardless if you are male or female, or how old you are. As per what I've been told.
I just remembered, I know 2 peeps pretty well that went to jail for perjury. That was only about 4 years ago.
I was going to apologize for maybe being off topic, but maybe I'm not? :)
Earlier today, Billy Mitchell filed a "Motion to Strike Reply Evidence."
This motion seeks to prevent the court from considering all the evidence that Twin Galaxies provided in its recent Reply that informs the Court of facts missing from Billy's Opposition papers...
It alternatively asks the court to grant more time for Billy to respond to what Billy calls "new evidence" that has been presented.
In response, the Twin Galaxies legal team filed an "Opposition to Motion to Strike" - which explains to the court that the evidence of Twin Galaxies on reply is not "new evidence" but is instead reply evidence that informs the Court of facts missing from Billy's Opposition papers.
Presentation of these facts is necessary to ensure Twin Galaxies is afforded due process in the pursuit of vindicating the First Amendment right to free speech.
You can find both Billy's and Twin Galaxies' motion documents here for download as they are in the public record now.
The Community can rest assured that Twin Galaxies will continue to fight for truth every step of the way without hesitation. TG has nothing to hide and will continue to maintain full transparency in this matter.
In the meanwhile, Billy Mitchell (or anyone else) is always invited to provide Twin Galaxies with any technical information that can definitively show how an unmodified original Donkey Kong Arcade PCB and TWO BIT converter can produce a direct feed signal to a VCR that when recorded and played back displays all of the image characteristics and rasterization properties found in the 1,047,200 and 1,050,200 score performance recordings that Jeremy Young's dispute claim discussed - and which Twin Galaxies has previously issued its opinion and decision on.
While I'm super duper appreciative that TG is sharing everything, and i commend that, i thought that in legal matters you were supposed to keep things secret. So again, totally not complaining, very happy about the transparency, just wondering if sharing so much is wise in legal procedings. the nerd in me wants to understands law as it relates to this case better.
The advantage here is that, by publishing these filings, a number of *ahem* interested parties are given an opportunity to dissect the claims for themselves. Twin Galaxies is absolutely in the right on this. Billy's defense is all smoke-and-mirrors, deception, misrepresentation, and flat out lies. The more that comes out about Team Billy and their defense statements just makes them look worse and worse.
On page 135 of Billy's declaration exhibits:
Oooooh, now I'm curious.
Skipping a bunch of stuff for now. (Not skipping it in my review or my notes, I'm just not commenting on or addressing/debunking every little thing I could at this time.) But here's something funny I noticed, on page 192 of Billy's declaration exhibits from June 22:
"Exhibit 54" is only cited once in Billy's declaration, strictly in the context of him being shown in his restaurant in the movie. Except... that's not actually a screenshot of the actual movie. (Do they not have a copy of the movie? Like, anyone among them?) That's a screenshot from an Apollo Legend video. The words "King of Kong" in the corner are in the font Apollo uses to identify clip sources.
You gotta admit, the guy is determined to win at any cost.
Presuming the judge finds his case to be a Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation, then...
Defendants prevailing on an anti-SLAPP motion (including any subsequent appeal) are entitled to a mandatory award of reasonable attorney's fees. After an anti-SLAPP motion has been filed, a plaintiff cannot escape this mandatory fee award by amending its complaint.
If anyone had any doubt as to how Guinness' announcement, coordinated with Mr. Cheater, would factor in to Mr. Cheater's legal strategy, they make it crystal clear, here in their opposition to TG's anti-SLAPP motion filing:
From Pineiro declaration located here:
From what I've read, signing something like that under duress means it is not legally valid.
I believe that to be true, but am unconvinced that a threat of being sued meets the legal standard of duress. Furthermore, I trust it's not libelous for me to write that Billy Mitchell is no Symbionese Liberation Army.
Quick thing I noticed a moment ago. In Billy's declaration exhibit filing, starting on page 113 they have seven pages dedicated to silly nonsense about the "peach-like" color of Billy's game tapes shown at Big Bang. At the end, on page 119, they have this dual-image:
The filing attributes both of these stills to the following footage, uploaded to YouTube during the 2018 dispute by GDLarcade:
I saw that and thought "Man, that's a sweet shot of the three girder screen on Billy's TVs there. I'd been looking for a nice shot like that. Thanks for the damning MAME evidence, Billy!" But then I went to look through the video to find it for myself, and I could not. With the five stacked Kongs there, that places it just after an elevator stage, and only one such transition exists on the GDLarcade video, and it's not nearly as crisp. It was then pointed out to me that the game play seen on the GDLarcade video has two lives in reserve throughout, but in that clear shot, you see one life in reserve. That had to have been photographed or filmed off the TV as it continued to play after the presentation (and after Roy Shildt's heckling of Billy).
For one thing, it's misattributed in Billy's filing, though given that it's actually pretty damning I'm not sure Jace should object to it. But it begs the question: Is there another video of the Big Bang event floating around somewhere? I checked it against the following two, and it's no match to either (and, with the one life in reserve, it would have been after the conclusion of these anyway):
Could this maybe be from David Race's footage? Since he's no longer on Team Billy like he used to be, I don't suppose he might be willing to make his footage available?
So I was recently given some anonymous assistance on something which I'd seen discussed before, but proof of which I'd never really seen spelled out. I shall spell it out now.
As most here know (but I will re-establish anyway), on Saturday, August 7, 2010, the same day Billy's two claimed world records on Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Junior were announced and displayed at the "Big Bang" event in Ottumwa, his buddy and tech Rob Childs uploaded three videos to YouTube, which were presented as having been filmed the same day the scores were achieved. Obviously the intention was for these videos to serve as added public authentication of the scores, even if Team Billy would later deny they were anything but "satire".
The three videos are here:
"Billy Mitchell speaks (july,2010) moments after breaking donkey kong record" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFLGF933tgc
"After DK record Billy Mitchell goes for donkey kong junior record" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvJEaAYSp9k
"We have a new donkey kong junior record July, 2010" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvdrEgk2l6g
In the DK community, it had been known for quite some time (I don't know exactly how long) that the second of those, featuring a swap of two arcade PCBs, was faked. Rob claims to be swapping a DK board for a DK Junior board, but it's a DK Junior board both times. The following video explaining the difference between these boards was posted to the dispute thread:
The actual video is clearly old, as it is addressed to "Hank" (Chien) and "Steve" (Wiebe). At some point, Robert became aware that others discovered the board swap in his video was fake, and he replaced the audio with royalty-free music, which you hear over the video on his channel now. Thankfully, someone saved the original video before that. You can see the original version here:
The TG dispute was initially opened on the basis that this piece of evidence for the score was bogus. This didn't meet TG's evidence standards for score removal, and no action was taken at that time.
Much has been made of the board swap video, but I'd like to point something out in the other two videos.
While Billy had previously never deigned to address the obvious charade seen in those videos, that changed after the publication of the damning MAME evidence. Billy's scores were now on the chopping block, and explanations were being expected. At Kong Off 6 (during the active TG dispute), Triforce hosted a panel in defense of his friend Billy, and it was at this panel that Kong Off competitor George Riley asked Billy about the matter directly. Starting at 51:10 in the following video, this is what Billy himself had to say:
"You want the truth, I'll give you the truth. You stop, I've got the whole story. We finished, we ate. An hour later, he goes 'I want to put this on my YouTube channel.' And everybody went back over to the game, and he took out a board, and he put a board in, and he's too lazy to grab the other board, and he did it for his YouTube channel. He's an idiot."
Gosh, I hope getting thrown under that bus didn't hurt Rob too badly. We're supposed to believe Billy participated in making fake evidence boosting his scores for no reason other than to build up Rob's YouTube channel, which seems to have never been the focus of any other channel-building exercises at any other point in time. So nice of Billy to go out of his way for his good friend Rob like that.
But seriously, there we have it from Billy himself that the board swap video was filmed later that same day/evening/night/whatever. They finished, they ate. An hour later, Rob's like "Hey, I want to shoot a video!"
Discussion of the fake board swap seems to have disappeared from their latest filings, but they did address it in their September 2019 legal threat. Here's Rob Childs, on page 44 of Billy's 156-page evidence packet from September (the initial one before Team Billy made changes), explaining the incident:
Okay, so he had put the DK board away "earlier in the day". Once again, seems pretty clear he means the video was done later the same day as the scores, right?
Let's see what others had to say. Todd Rogers' testimony regarding the Boomers score was conspicuously absent from the September evidence submission, but he does make a new statement in Billy's latest declaration exhibits filing, starting on page 40 out of 214. As I said, this board swap seems to have become a non-issue for them, and Todd never addresses it directly. (Even though it seems likely he was the one filming that video featuring Robert and Billy.) Regarding the timing of events that day, he has this to say:
Ah, so they ate dinner in between DK and DK Junior? And he suggests Billy should attempt DK Junior "that night". But he does say it was "relatively early" when he said that, so maybe an early dinner?
Okay, so they left for the "evening". That's pretty vague, though. 6pm? Just past sunset? Also, hilariously no mention of these videos he participated in. Like they just aren't important. You don't think that's going to come up at some point? Are they actually trying to win a case or just throw a bunch of witness statements at the court to bully the other party into conceding?
Morningdove Mahoney's statement follows on subsequent pages, but her statement is very devoid of detail, simply reiterating Team Billy talking points about a tripod and assuring the reader there was no emulation happening anywhere in sight. She doesn't give any time of day, but she does make a reference to Joe Tortorella giving her tokens to use in her free time, even though my understanding was that she was supposed to be refereeing Billy's games.
On page 59 of Billy's declaration exhibits, you see the same Matt Furgal signed statement from page 39 of the Sept 2019 evidence packet (the one that oddly switches back and forth between two different fonts). He says the following:
Okay, so Donkey Kong was finished late afternoon, then they went and had dinner, and then returned for a three-hour game of Donkey Kong Junior. Seems to go with Todd's statements about a "relatively early" dinner. Still not really the specificity we're looking for here.
Joe Tortorella didn't really add anything. Basically, "Yeah, I was the manager, they played some Donkey Kong, I'm sure it was all legit."
Then we get to Billy himself. Specifically, pages 45 and 46 from the 156-page September thing:
Here we go! There's the juice. "Todd's words motivated me to at least attempt that night." "Around midnight, I achieved..." "...most people had gone home since it was late at night." All right above Billy's "under penalty of perjury" signature. So maybe some time passed before he started his three-hour Junior run.
He also makes clear, both chronologically in his statement and in specifying the words "After the performances" (and then again, "long after the end of my performances") that the swap video occurred after the completion of the DK Junior score. (In fact, if you took Billy's KO6 explanation literally, the swap video was an hour AFTER he completed the score "around midnight".)
Point of all this being: It was super-late when they claim they filmed the board swap. Even during summer in Florida, it should've been dark as f*** outside.
At this point, you probably see where this is going, and I know exactly what Team Billy will use as their next excuse. But don't worry, they torpedo that as well.
The board swap video stays pretty closely focused on Rob, on Billy, and on the DK machine. But thankfully, we have two other videos from that session. Note, by the way, how their above statements only reference the one "video" of the board swap. Did they just forget they did two other videos as well? Or are those still supposed to be considered legit score documentation of the record-achieving moment? Since they were addressing the board swap video anyway, why would they not just take the opportunity to say "Yeah, those videos [plural] were all stunts"? Why not disavow them all when you had the chance?
In the other two videos, you see a bit more of the scene around them. You see various lights here and there, but it's hard to tell what's a window and what's an electric sign. In filming these two videos, Robert still keeps things very close to people's faces, and he definitely favors the side of the building with the DK machine (denying us a good look at what's behind him... for the most part). In the "We have a new..." video, at 1:07, Robert briefly turns the camera on himself:
He does this to remark to the camera and to Billy, "You pulled me out of bed, man!" (As if he wasn't there with them, filming these three videos in sequence.) When Robert does this turn of the camera, he makes sure to point it up to the ceiling and away from what's directly behind him. It's the same sort of comical concealment you see throughout the videos (such as earlier that same video when Billy quickly backs up to block view of a DK machine which should be showing his high score).
But Robert wasn't so careful with the "Billy Mitchell speaks..." video. Perhaps he filmed that one first, and then later realized he should be filming up and away, but maybe he (or Billy) just felt lazy and didn't want to redo the first video. (Remember, they supposedly had a real DK board in the car, but just didn't feel like going and getting it for their fake board swap.)
At any rate, let's take a look at what's behind Mr. Childs in that first video.
Boy, that sure looks like an outside door, don't it? What with those glowing red exit signs and all.
And what's that behind his other shoulder? A rock wall?
Yeah, that's definitely a rock wall. Not as clear a shot of those bright exit doors this time, but they are there.
But still, how can we really be sure those are outside doors, and not.... Well, I'm not sure what else they could even be. But still, is there any closer photo we can get?
Boomers in Dania Beach, Florida, was closed in 2015 and demolished to build a shopping center, but there still exist photos from when it was open. An anonymous tipster sent me the piece I was missing, a series of photos from before the demolition:
Scroll down and you'll find this one:
Well, look at that! Forget the two random kids who are probably in college by now. You've got those rock walls we saw over Rob's shoulder, and you have two exit doors, which definitely are exterior doors and not like big bright vending machines with exit signs over them. That's it. Not much arguing with that.
Rewatching the video, it feels pretty obvious, too. Listen to the ambient noise around them. It doesn't "sound" like past Midnight, if that makes sense. It sounds like a summer vacation afternoon. (I'm sure the ever-sycohpantic Triforce would never take that quote of context. "Look right there! Their entire argument is that it sounds like an afternoon! That's all they have!")
Now, here's where we get to the thing Team Billy will say about this. Because again, in their statements above, they never address the other two videos, just the board swap one, which they had to admit was fake.
The first most obvious thing they'll try to say is "Oh, those videos were all just jokes, all of them." But even that excuse wouldn't explain why they would lie about these increasingly disavowed videos being filmed at night when they were clearly filmed during the day. As if it's inconsequential that they continued lying, so specifically and so blatantly and in such detail, in their own signed witness statements, well past the point of where they needed to be candid. Nor would it explain the ongoing problem that all these other photos and videos they claim to own which would prove their scores were legitimate were never published in the way these staged videos were. Nor would it address the fact that, ultimately, Twin Galaxies has to rule based on the evidence it has (such as the fact the accused lied and fabricated evidence), and not based on what hypothetical evidence an accused cheater argues could theoretically exist.
And that's where we get to Team Billy's next possible out. "Well, we didn't lie. The board swap video was filmed after Midnight, like we said. We just didn't tell you that these videos were filmed at different times. Sure, that one where you see the exits was filmed in daylight. That doesn't mean we didn't film the board swap one later on, after dark."
Notice of course Todd, Billy, and Rob are all wearing the same thing in each video. They're (conveniently for us) on record saying the board swap video was later at night following the DK Junior record. I should hope they wouldn't expect us to believe they all reconvened, each on different days, all wearing the same outfits as before, all to stage different videos and pretend they were all done the same day as the DK and DK Junior records (though with what they've asked us to believe so far, I guess I couldn't even put that past them).
But no, the easy answer at this point is "Well, we filmed the one video with daylight in the late afternoon, between games, then Rob decided he wanted me to participate in falsifying more evidence of my scores because it might help his YouTube channel, so we did two more videos later at night" (the board swap one, and "We have a new..." where Billy states his exact DK Junior record).
But then how do you explain this? The following is a quote from "Billy Mitchell speaks...", starting at 20 seconds. And remember, this is the one of the three videos where we can see in the video itself that it was filmed during daylight hours. Here's what Billy himself had to say:
The fact of the matter was, on the eve of the opening of the video game hall of fame, and wanting to set a record, Boomers has such a tremendous history in the gaming world, I thought it was right to come here, to do it here, because so many players, so many champions, so many world records were created because of what was created here at Boomer's so many years ago. There was a little problem in the fact that they hadn't had a Donkey Kong in here in probably about ten years. So we made a contact here with the manager, as we call him Joe T, he was more than cordial, he basically gave us the place, whatever we wanted, here, there, playing all hours, day and night, any place, any position we wanted, and it worked out great. We set up our recording, set up our games, had everything ready. And, uh, it was a little slow getting started, but then once the records came, they came. And I guess that'll come out in a press release."
As a further reference to ersatz_cats' post, here are the two moments with Robert - the first after the DK score, and the second after the DK Jr score. Recall that behind Robert are the entrance doors to the space (visible on the lower left in the after DK image). The arrow identifies a common and only visible point of reference between the photos.
If Mitchell is saying that Dwayne altered the tapes to make it look like something else (MAME signatures?)
Then WHY was Mitchell helping Carlos and Steve to try and re-create those non arcade signatures on his original equipment?
Shouldn't he have instead been working on a method to show how Dwayne actually managed to introduce those transitions and stuff from his supposed unaltered tapes?
And I meant to do this in the post and I unfortunately forgot, but I meant to credit Evener and his always fantastic work with some of the elements from that presentation. (I believe Evener may have brought attention to those exits behind Rob prior to it being pointed out to me. Also, after I had cut out the part of Billy's statement where he talks about the board swap, I sent it to Evener and he pointed out to me the portion right above my cut specified it was around Midnight.)
No problem, the exits were brought to my attention from the same TG member I suspect that raised them with you, big thanks to them for their research!
While TG's determination was based on the video tape recordings used to justify the 1.047 and 1.05 scores, if the case is heard by a jury and the associated witness statements for the 1.06 million score are raised, I think it's highly likely that the 3 Boomer videos and the related testimonials will be of significant interest to them as well.
Carlos Pineiro's Statement on Billy Mitchell's Upcoming "Power Supply" Move.
If that is a forthcoming explanation, I think we'll all be interested in examining their findings, especially as it pertains to the 5 volts feeding the PCB and having the chance to see how they reproduced the results.
In my experience as a hobbyist, a malfunctioning power supply usually leads to blown fuses and the game going down, which is by hardware design in order to protect the circuitry of the PCB from voltage spikes that might damage components. If the fluctuating voltages weren't enough to burn out the fuse, one could expect all manner of non-standard gameplay behaviour. But it strikes me as implausible that a voltage change affecting interactions between the Z80, video ram, and video board would result in a single repeatable "glitch" that doesn't adversely affect overall gameplay in any way and is limited solely to how the graphics are drawn to the screen in a manner that would neatly match, frame for frame, those outputted by emulation such as MAME (if that's where this impending power supply news is headed).
For reference, here's a post from bh_ about arcade and MAME differences.
EDIT: Okay, they're not going that far!
More to the point, a malfunctioning power supply would present itself in a way that would have rendered Carlos' tests impossible. But if they have a new discovery on that point besides an unsubstantiated attempt to discredit Carlos' work, we'll hear it of course.
So, recently I have problems with my Ms. Pac-Man PCB and I did discover that indeed voltages do change character display.
Plays, Images are 4 1/4 of the left side of a Sprite repeated. Placed slightly to left of Marquee box (Ms Pac). Motion & Demo are jerky
In this case the problem was voltages and pins did not connect properly.
The Databus RAM chips (DR3 to DR7) on the database & Program RAM chips 1E and pin6; RAM chip 2E and pin3 & pin4 & pin5 and pin6 were dirty, touching where they should not and were going low on voltage.
High - means that the pin isn't pulsing or going low. If you had a scope and you were probing that pin it would just show a straight line at the 5 volt level.
Short is when two pins are supposed to be separate, somehow are now touching or are connected somehow when they shouldn't be. So if you have two boards and one is shorted and the other isn't you would be able to take your meter and put it on ohms and then measure on the good board between those two pins you would get a higher ohms reading (~1000 ohms or no reading at all "open") rather than a (0 ohms) shorted reading on the bad board.
As seen in Ms. Pac-Man the a misalignment are consistent for all ghosts...but this cannot prove that a Donkey Kong PCB girder do have a finger on one spesific edge; why not the other girders also?
It does make aware misalignment are possible in Arcade PCBs.
Francois du Toit
Hi Francoisadt - thanks for your examples of screen-displayed glitches on Ms. Pac-Man - that's a great reference document from Mike's Arcade.
On the issue of the potential sharing of new evidence concerning a faulty power supply and DK play, I think that we as a community need to see what exactly is being claimed so we can assess its merits in view of the dispute review. But when reflecting on Carlos' message that a forthcoming claim may point to a faulty power supply as being the culprit for what we see on the tapes (therefore rendering them "inconclusive,") I am fundamentally skeptical that a power supply issue would affect the PCB in such as way as to produce MAME-like transitions for the simple reason of 1) the astronomical odds/cosmic impossibility that an error caused by voltage issues would randomly produce such transitions, frame for frame, on the four unique levels of DK, multiple times on three different gameplay recordings from three different cabinets, and *only* affect that aspect of the game, and 2) the ways that arcade and emulators like MAME draw are notably different, and these differences aren't based on the fact that emulators produce the transitions they do as a result of a voltage issues.
I would also point out that the graphical errors identified on Mike's Arcade are documented as to the source of the problem (eg. bad video RAM, corrupted ROM, high/low pins), and are repeatable.
if we one talk one in a million what ifs, maybe aliens used a mame ray they aimed at the machine to frame bily, you cant in the real world rule out every ridiculous possilibyt
However, this is where TG's marvelous wording works. Even if it was the power supply, that may prove bily didnt cheat, and that it wasnt intentinal, but it also demonstrates it wasnt a legit machine and so yes the score was invalid. i'm not sure if "modified" is the right word as modified implies doing it intentionally, bad a damaged machine cant truly be called "unmodified'.
this goes just fine with "did not achieve on an authentic unmodified donkey kong pcb"
Wasn't there a short MTV Interview with Robert Mruczek that had Billy's game footage in the background? This would suggest TG already had his footage before it could be edited.
And there was a questionable video of Billy at Boomer's with someone who was changing the DK board for a DK Jr. board. The claim says both boards were the same. I can't confirm or deny that, but always thought it was strange that clip even exists since it was the only footage captured that weekend.
And lastly, didn't Guinness Gamer's edition , publish something about Billy's records being removed? Something along the lines of incorrectly stating Pac Man, and not DK, were the performances in question?
Electrical issues can certainly lead to memory corruption, but as you point out this is not reproducible. I saw a game game where the ground wire came loose. It glitched and the player went on to score 20 million points. As cool as it was, this isn't a reproducible error. Even if these errors arose reproducibly, random bit flips cannot reprogram the game to have double buffered video.
Same here for common Visual Glitch Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Jr Errors, no where graphic sprites that are stretched
to have additional spites like a girder finger ..
Errors on this site are 100% repeatable the guy posting it even explain on one page how he repeat the error with bad rom swops.
Just for reference, I scored over 20 million points on donkey kong through power supply manipulation. I still saw the 5 girder pattern during the transition as expected.
So I've been chatting with an anonymous someone (NOT the anonymous person who cued me into the Boomers video stuff). I don't think they want to be identified, but they asked me a good question, about Walter's footnote in the Guinness letter.
Specifically, they wanted to know what this "huge psychological pressure" on Billy was. Here's that footnote, as seen on the bottom of page 16 (of the 214-page declaration exhibits):
And I thought I had an easy answer: "Well, Billy specifically wanted to have the record when King of Kong hit theaters, and so there was the pressure to get it done." But then I realized we weren't talking about the mortgage brokers score. We were talking about the earlier 2005 score. Sure, they were filming a movie at that time, the exact nature of which people weren't really yet aware of. (The filmmakers did follow and film for a bunch of different gaming stories, although it could be argued they knew all along they intended to focus their film exclusively on the DK competition involving their friend Steve Wiebe.)
But why on earth would King of Kong, a future movie not to be released until 2007, be putting that much pressure on Billy? He still had plenty of time to just show up to some public event and smash out a world record by playing at that excessively high pace at which he always killed off his games. And he was certainly free to submit a tape score if he wanted. Literally, no one would have cared if he did (other than the fact that he himself always talked about doing things differently). So why was this an issue?
Then we got to talking about the Walter Day footnote itself. As was pointed out on page 22 of this thread, that footnote was NOT there in the September 2019 evidence submission (despite Walter, in his latest declaration, misrepresenting it to the court as a true copy of the letter he sent in September). This got into a discussion of whether the footnote is newly written, or whether it did exist back in September and was accidentally omitted at that time. (Note that even if its omission was an accident, it's still not appropriate for Walter Day to misrepresent its inclusion to a court of law. This isn't like correcting some small typographical error.)
Anyway, I wrote up a response to this question, and I liked my response enough to post it here, as follows:
Honestly, I highly doubt the footnote was accidentally omitted before. Maybe if they were more trustworthy in general, I might give them the benefit of the doubt. But not these clowns. They've lied too much already.
What I know is this: Billy had always had this act about "I never submit taped scores", and then of course he submits that tape. We all saw that in King of Kong, of course. He never really addressed this discrepancy before the dispute. Then, in the Sept 2019 evidence packet, he and Walter Day finally explain that the 1.047m wasn't a "real" submission and was, according to them, entered against Billy's wishes. This wasn't, like a passing reference. Of their original 156-page evidence packet to go with their letter to TG and to Guinness (before they started adding pages), they devoted pages 5-18 just on this topic, under the header "Section 1: 1,047,200 Was Not a Score Submission". This was a significant point they set out to make.
It's important to understand, the reason they took this angle was because they're trying to disavow the tapes altogether. Basically, "You based your dispute on these tapes, but these tapes were never used to verify my scores, which were verified by referee. The tapes were just for entertainment, therefore they don't count." (Yes, he also claims the tapes are fake and not his. He just likes throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks.) And he can technically, on some level, argue that the 1.05m and the 1.062m were not entered strictly on the basis of these tapes, as both "events" had Todd Rogers as his referee (even though an article at the time of the 1.05m referred to his tape as "added verification"). The problem there is, the 1.047m never had any referee, and was added strictly on the basis of that tape. So rather than simply acknowledge that score and that tape, their strategy was to disavow that score altogether. "Nope, never submitted it. It was entered against my wishes." (Which doesn't explain why he himself bragged about that score, or referred to it as "verified through videotaped documentation". Nor does it explain why he wanted Guinness to reinstate his first million record on the basis of that tape he claims he never submitted.)
Again, in terms of his defense to this dispute, this whole "I never submit tapes and that 1.047m score was entered against my wishes" thing was new as of Sept 2019. Well, obviously in the dispute thread we all had a field day with that. When I did an update to my "Evidence against Billy Mitchell" post over on Donkey Kong Forum in April - https://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2706.0 - I added a nice sizable section to just how ridiculous that new claim was. I happen to know that Team Billy has reviewed that post because A) obviously they would, and B) they included in their recent court filings at least one image I put together for that post. (It was the one that shows the TVs tilted different directions. I checked my work folder and confirmed I grabbed those stills and put them together in that way.) So I know they read my bit about how preposterous the "I never submitted that score" line of defense was.
So now, this missing footnote gets added, which tries to skirt the line of perjuring themselves based on what they said before, but also tries to have it both ways. "Well, he still didn't, but he kind of did, but he didn't, he also decided that maybe he should, even though he didn't, while simultaneously he did." [Added note: I forgot to add this in my reply to anonymous, but that section on how 1,047,200 was not a submission is now completely gone from their recent filings as well.] Personally, I see that as a direct response to having tested the waters with their previous story, and finding out it didn't line up with what they had said before, and realizing maybe they should take a different approach. So now, Walter Day's using this surprise footnote to ease off the gas, as if they didn't totally say what they were saying. There's just no way that footnote was there in September. At the time, they were all in on the other story.
If Billy wants to vacillate on recognizing "direct feed" submissions-but-not-submissions, why bother with the 1.047M? He displayed a 1.014M tape to the public in July 2004, with Walter in attendance, and submitted it to TG (@RTM can go over those details). Surely Billy would retain a copy of such a momentous score, right? I mean, it obviously occurred before the 1.047M, which he now states on the record as occurring on or about December 28, 2004. And surely he wouldn't want Guinness to be promoting the wrong dates or scores for the first ever 1M DK score, right?
And it's July 4th today. So, happy anniversary to America and to Steve Wiebe's 1,006,600 DK score.
Are the court proceedings for this case allowed to be recorded on video and distributed onto the internet?
I'd be interested to watch.
On July 3, 2020 David Race uploaded previously unreleased footage of Billy Mitchell's Big Bang 2010 - Donkey Kong 1,062,800 score performance that he captured with his video camera during the event.
We have been examining the footage frame by frame:
As has been well documented, it is established that an unmodified original Donkey Kong arcade PCB will ALWAYS output FIVE GIRDERS on this frame and it has been tested and shown to not ever render a THREE GIRDER configuration under normal operational circumstances.
It should be noted, that we have also learned that we should always take "rolling shutters" into account when looking at game footage captured with a camera pointed at a screen, as many video cameras have rolling shutters. The shutters are not necessarily synchronized with the screen and not necessarily open for 1/60th of a second.
However in the particular captured frame above from the Big Bang 2010 we seem to be witnessing a near complete rasterization with only the bottom 1/3 of the TV screen (think of the TV rotated to the right, sitting in its natural position) missing its second scan line pass to complete the raster.
So from this we may determine that there is absolutely no 4th and 5th girders being cut off by a rolling shutter camera capture.
The electron gun has seemingly already made its first pass across the entire screen (every odd line) - which is why it appears to show those 'faint' completed girders that are on the far right (bottom) of the screen - and appears to be now 2/3rd of the way down the screen on its second pass (every even line) filling in the rest - so this is likely why the "left" side of the 3 girders (which is actually the 'top" of the tv) is bright and filled in and the far "right" side of the screen showing the 2 girders is 'faint" and possibly not yet completely filled in. The TV being used is NTSC.
Based on our testing as well and numerous unaffiliated independent 3rd party testing, in the above snapshot, an unmodified DK arcade would likely be showing girders 4 and 5 as well on the 'right' side (bottom) in a "faint" depiction just like the girders above their position since the electron gun has already made one full complete pass on the screen filling in every odd scan line.
We find this new evidence to be interesting and will continue to study it further and give it fair consideration. We encourage the community to examine the footage for themselves and share whatever conclusions they may draw from this new post-dispute evidentiary entry.
This explanation is sacrificing accuracy for simplicity and conflates rolling shutter, frame rate, and shutter angle. There's nothing wrong with that, but a non-expert audience may be confused.
Rolling shutter is a phenomenon where a camera's frame is read out serially. This means some pixels in a frame are older than other pixels in a frame. It's very easy to see this in fast moving objects, like airplane propellers, where they end up with severe distortion. A global shutter exposes all of the sensor pixels simultaneously. Cameras with CCD sensors have a global shutter while those with CMOS sensors have a rolling shutter. If I recall correctly, most current generation consumer video cameras use CMOS while older consumer cameras tended to be CCD.
Frame rate measures the number of frames per second. Shutter angle is a measure of how long each frame is exposed relative to the length of a frame. The terminology comes from old rotary shutters. A 180 degree shutter exposes the frame for for a duration equal to one-half the length of the frame. When a camera runs 30fps with a 180 degree shutter each frame is exposed for about 16ms. The larger the shutter angle the more motion blurring will appear. A sufficiently low shutter angle might allow you to see the leading edge of the light gun, assuming the CRT phosphors dimmed rapidly enough. Cameras don't have persistence of vision like human eyes, so comparing the two can get very strange.
The Nyquist sampling theorem tells us that we need to sample the frames quickly enough if we want to reconstruct the original signal without aliasing. As Jace correctly explains, we're seeing consecutive frames on the CRT getting combined together on the camera. Even without rolling shutter this can happen given a low frame rate, large shutter angle or many combinations of the two. Introducing rolling shutter makes this even weirder because it could combine consecutive frames even with a high frame rate and low shutter angle.
Your detailed explanation and contribution is both thorough and appreciated.
Regarding the effect of consecutive frames on the CRT getting combined together on the camera, since this THREE GIRDER display actually takes place after Billy Mitchell enters in his high score initials "USA" we can know for certain that the "faint" partially rasterized girders that are being displayed in the following frame is NOT from a previous screen frame that had them present.
We are able to discern that these frames are in fact new to the display at that time and therefore can not be explained as "having been there previously" (a result of previous frame persistence caused by camera or otherwise.)
Below is a frame-by-frame slow motion capture of each frame both BEFORE and AFTER the THREE GIRDER display. Transitioning from the HIGH SCORE display, straight to the Donkey Kong attract mode. Again, this seems to show that the THREE GIRDERS could not have been left over from a previous screen display.
One thing to say one or sort of CRT and Camera combination do XYZ, another to explain what does these finding connect to for this case?
So what doe this imply:
"Again, this seems to show that the THREE GIRDERS could not have been left over from a previous screen display."
That this can or cannot happen on original arcade hardware or emulator?
What does this mean to the images rendered by Billy videos recording images?
What I'd like to know is why this evidence is only being revealed now?
These aren't new revelations as I remember them being discussed in the dispute thread.
Quick update regarding today's "Case Management Conference."
I was told that the Judge's researcher wanted more time to study all the evidence, so the hearing date was moved and the first available court date was Oct. 15th.
That's pretty much it.
From my perspective I was personally pleased with hearing that the court is interested in looking very closely at all the presented evidence to make sure they understand everything. I would not want them to skim through it quickly - as it has become quite apparent that most people who do spend the time examining the full details of the matter tend to come to a certain definitive conclusion.
I'll just set this bail money aside for now.
I guess in a way it's a win for Team Billy as their actual goal is to waste at much time and money as possible.
Face, meet palm.
The researcher will make a recommendation to the judge based on the review, and support that recommendation with the various materials.
At that point the judge will then review the researcher's recommendation(s) and also review the complete case materials themselves before making a final decision.
That is my general understanding, however I have not explored the full detail of this.
With that being said I would think that there is not a lot of speculation to be had when the Judge's researcher asks for more time to review everything in the case. It would seem to mean that the court likely intends to look closely at the matter to make sure they understand the detail of the issue.
This is a very good thing in my opinion.
You want to believe your heroes are real... :(
I want to say the truth should be obvious here, but in a court of law anything can happen. Hopefully this gets settled without needing a jury. If he gets one then Mr. Mitchell may have a chance to win. It's easy to twist the truth when you only have so much time to present your case to others and they're not allowed to look into it themselves. The only thing jurors can use is the facts presented and the knowledge they already have. They're supposed to be impartial so the most likely ones are those who know little-to-nothing about the situation and those involved.
It baffles me how Team Billy's defense is throwing so many people under the bus without acknowledging other damning evidence. I haven't had time to read over everything, but it seems they scrapped a good bit of their original story and made a new one that once again mainly only swears under perjury that it is the truth? Save the words for testifying in front of a judge. It could have at least had more evidence than word of mouth half of the time. Yes experts should be allowed to testify, but these testimonies on Mr. Mitchell's behalf are a waste of time and paper. I. Hate. Liars. People make up white lies to not hurt people, but the truly dishonest will change their story as many times as they need to so they can cover for themselves and cover up their victims. There is a difference between elaboration and going off tangents.
I do want to point out that the suggestion of "PC artifacts" in Dwayne's supposedly-edited videos is a double-edged sword. Those artifacts could just as easily be used as proof that *HE* recorded the game off of a computer. That's not a sturdy leg to stand on if you can raise enough doubt. Their case is no exception to why he wasn't caught cheating sooner. Apollo Legend's first video on him shows that the second 1M tape has signs of editing, so something did happen, even though I can't say who or what. Besides, Mr. Race's video shatters the very foundation of their argument, if not the case itself. I hope these judges are smart and follow Occam's Razor. Did someone go through 2.5 hours of footage to replace no more than 30 seconds of the entire video with signatures over a year before said person actually had them (How can I simplify a wordy story like that?), or did the player simply use what created said signatures? The simplest explanation is the most likely, especially when you take in all the other falsity claims TG presented in their rebuttal. The only thing this case is doing is revealing even more truths that would have been otherwise irrelevant. He's shooting himself in the foot here and sinking further into his own hole.
My main question now is that since everything is now being reviewed, does that mean no more can be submitted? While I do believe in the right to dispute and retort in the name of fairness, Team Billy does not deserve the opportunity to keep revising their story and make up new lies in an effort to cover their tracks. If the anti-SLAPP goes through I suppose this won't be a problem, but I'm concerned nonetheless.
This has gotten to pathological lying. I studied psych for two years yet I didn't need that to know self-victimizers never come clean unless they get some personal benefit out of it. If he really was telling the truth, he shouldn't need to backpedal so much in the first place.
Sorry for the double post, but I rewatched some videos and remembered I had one more question that was bugging me. In the video of BM talking about his double world records set back-to-back, he has two TVs displaying what appears to be gameplay of both DK and DK Jr.. What are those videos supposed to be? His records? Some random gameplay? It seems irrelevant since nobody has brought it up, but I'm really curious.
That's at the inauguration of the International Video Game Hall of Fame, where he featured his records set at Boomer's a couple of weeks prior. The tape of the 1.062M Donkey Kong score was ruled as inconclusive in the dispute adjudication.
There's a corresponding full magazine page, printed for the occasion, announcing his new world records:
I mispoke when I said "tape of the 1.062M Donkey Kong Score," as I'm uncertain if any such tape still exists. Mitchell has stated that he currently has no tapes of any of those performances. Anyhow, here's the bit that notes the 1.062M score could not be adjudicated:
- The 1,062,800 (the Boomers score) Donkey Kong performance does not have enough of a body of direct evidence for Twin Galaxies to feel comfortable to make a definitive determination on at this time.
There is a bit of a "tape of a tape," of course, when Mitchell's demonstration was videoed at the event. I recall in an earlier discussion, that the 3-girder rendering did appear in that brief capture, but the other "direct" recordings are enough to support the conclusion on their own.
I might be wrong about that, but it would be in the previously cited dispute thread. Be prepared to dig.
and yes the dk screens showed the same evidence of mame. i dont know as much about dk jr but i've heard others claim the dk jr screen also shows mame. the TG response was that clip was too short to make a conclusive decision from so it did not factor into the formal decision but it definitely factored into many individuals unofficial beliefs
Reference to the DK 1.062 million score was cited by xelnia in his post here:
The only surviving footage of Mitchell's Boomer games is found in the recordings of people who attended and filmed Mitchell's IVGHOF announcement. I'd be glad for anyone who attended the IVGHOF announcement to confirm, but it's my understanding that Mitchell offered the public to view the play back of his two games during his announcement only, which happened an hour or so before everyone gathered in the theater for the induction ceremony. Importantly, only the last 20 minutes or so of his two games were played back for the public at the event - apparently no one outside of Todd Rogers has ever seen the full recording of his games, which Mitchell claimed was 2 hours 42 minutes for DK, and 3 hours 58 minutes for DK Jr.
Given that links can get quickly buried in multi-page threads, I've included a link to the Boomer's announcement for anyone just catching up:
As others have said, the 1.06 million game was not officially "ruled" upon by TG during the dispute. Part of that is due to the lack of extensive gameplay to review. On this point, in xelnia's post there's one transition cited in relation to the 1.06 million game, the pie factory. However, as you saw, David Race recently uploaded more extensive footage of the IVGHOF announcement, and in analyzing that footage, an additional girder transition was identified.
The only footage associated with the 1.06 million DK game that was widely available to the gaming community were the three videos recorded by Robert Childs and uploaded to YouTube - one on August 7, 2010, the day of Mitchell's IVGHOF announcement, and two on August ("Billy Mitchell speaks (July,2010) moments after breaking donkey kong record"; "After DK record, Billy Mitchell goes for donkey kong junior record"; "We have a new donkey kong junior record July,2010"). This footage was cited when the dispute was originally launched. Over the course of the dispute, both Childs and Mitchell confirmed for the first time that the footage of the "board swap" was faked, a development that will undoubtedly be of interest should the lawsuit proceed to a jury trial.
Due to all evidence in the matter of the Billy Mitchell Lawsuit being publicly available ( get it all here: https://bit.ly/31m354G - come to your own conclusion), Twin Galaxies is receiving increasingly more and more additional communication evidence (text messages, videos, screenshots, emails, etc), new sworn testimony, and independently interested 3rd party analysis of the available facts surrounding the matter. There seems to be no end to the number of people in the community stepping forward and supporting all efforts made toward finding truth-in-fact.
We continue to receive these materials (some of which are quite shocking) and they will all be made publicly available at a future date when they necessarily become part of lawsuit exhibits through additional TG filings in response to any further falsities put forth by Mr. Mitchell.
Twin Galaxies would like to thank all of the new people who are stepping forward. It is tremendous.
Recently a 3rd party reached out and wanted to make sure that our legal team did not miss what they felt may be some seemingly concerning and significant misrepresentations made by Walter Day in his sworn testimony and statements to Guinness World Records.
We assured them that our legal team has not missed anything regarding the facts of the whole case and has documented many items that will be definitively proven to be false through irrefutable physical evidence (such as below).
Certainly, we are incredibly disappointed in what we may be witnessing below with Mr. Day's testimony, and of course it causes us to potentially question a number of other historic items that Twin Galaxies administration previously accepted on the basis of just Walter's word - but that is a different discussion. In the meanwhile, an example for public consideration below:
Is there a record somewhere of who these "Twin Galaxies representatives and witnesses of impeccable credibility" were?
In other words, has anyone ever named any of those people?
Video played August 7 Saturday
7 days later.
So between the records being recorded and displayed 7 days later...
A magazine writer interviewd Billy, and wrote and article...that got to print, and the magazing was printed, and available in Ottumwa...
Does it seem odd to anyone else, that happened within a 6 day window?
Factor in his records supposedly ended late Saturday night... the earliest the interview could have occurred was Sunday. I'm assuming the magazine wasn't printed Sunday night. So now we are down to a 5 day business week, to get this story completed, edited, sent off to the magazine, printed, assembled, and shipped to Ottumwa in order to have copies to sign and sell on Saturday?
So was the rest of the magazine complete, just waiting on Billy? Or was this all done at an earlier date... and the date of July 31 just used as the fake board swap video, and to put a time and date on the "performances"? Assuming the magazine was complete, and all they needed to finish was the actual scores themselves... Is that short of a time frame feasible to go from print to public?
I wonder how long say, EGM magazine took to go from print to public for example?
Getting information printed into a staple-bound magazine within a day is no challenge, as long as most of the layout is done before that last scrap, like a couple of scores, is scant.
You referred to it as EGM, which I'm taking as Electronic Gaming Monthly. Was it a regularly scheduled issue? I was under the impression, without any factual basis, that it was a special issue prepared for the inauguration. The text of the dual high score announcement suggests its a report on the event? Dunno.
Does a PDF of the whole magazine exist? Edited to add: https://archive.org/details/video-game-collector-012
I want to restate again that I really hope this case doesn't fall to a jury. Not only would it mean more money and time to spend, but any opportunity the plaintiffs have is an opportunity to win. A quick Google search shows that Mr. Mitchell doesn't have as much financial resources as TG, so that's a huge plus thankfully. As someone who served last year, I'm trying to speak from experience. One misunderstood question could easily sway the verdict, and the legal world loves to push the English language to its limit just to confuse those with the power of choice. You do bring up a point about the aspect you mentioned though. What started the dispute was dismissed by the plaintiffs, and despite there being some sort of evidence it appears that the real evidence works against them. It would be the perfect opportunity for them to finally present proof of this record's existence, though it likely won't be the same video from a decade ago. Will their act of "finally being honest" sway the jury or will there be some way to definitively prove that it is also fake? I hate to be cynical or petty but I'm worried that somehow TG's entire case will be pushed to the side to focus on a few points Team Billy can take advantage of instead, or that all the lies previously stated will conveniently vanish while they contradict their original statements. Granted, I always thought it was a low blow when defense attorneys tried to discredit witnesses by focusing on their character instead of scrutinizing testimony like they're supposed to; I really shouldn't say this, but that doesn't sound so bad when you know the plaintiff's team is dishonest.
Some talk recently about the magazine at Boomer's. If you haven't already seen this, check out ersatz_cats' recent "The evidence against Billy Mitchell" post where he points out that the publisher of that magazine is also Billy's manager/agent. It's about 2/3rds of the way down the post.
It's certainly correct Streetwize to suggest that one shouldn't be overconfident or complacent in assessing the risks of a jury trial, but my own personal feeling is that the risk is at least equal for Mitchell.
In Walter's statement he says he ONLY accepted live scores in the 80s (per Guinness' demands) so the legitimacy cannot be questioned. Well if you go back and watch various interviews with him or go back and watch the documentary Chasing Ghosts that is not the case. Steve Sanders' bogus DK score was submitted via letter to Walter. Phone calls and letters were enough "proof" to get scores submitted back then.
Im curious on the semantics of "live" scores. I mean every single score, every video taped ones, were done for real "live" at one point. I could definitely see people stretching the term "live" when it benefited them. Unless you just enjoy debating, it'll probably be a big annoying waste of time to try determine what "live scores" meant to the people saying "live scores"
It's like "fresh frozen" food. Like, "is it fresh?" "Yeah, I mean, it was alive at one point in time!"
In the 2020.06.22 Declaration Exhibits [Mitchell], looking at Exhibit 1 - Walter Day, Paragraph 4:
"From 1982 to 2014, Twin Galaxies adjudicated records through two methods: on-site referee adjudication and video adjudication. In the 1980s, Twin Galaxies solely operated through on-site referee verification, because players rarely possessed video equipment. In the 1990s, we introduced video adjudication, so players could participate from their homes remotely."
This is what Walter remembered in the first edition of the Twin Galaxies' Official Video Game & Pinball Book of World Records (Fairfield, Iowa: Sunstar Publishing, 1998) as TG's origin story in February 1982 under the heading "Receiving Our First Score":
Casey Murphy, of Goodlettsville, TN, had scored over 565,000 points on Galaga. Like a million other kids, he was on fire to learn if his score was the highest in the world. Calling MIDWAY GAMES in Chicago, IL, he thought, was the way to get his answer.
Little did Murphy realize that merely twenty-five minutes before he called MIDWAY, a very thankful receptionist had scribbled Twin Galaxies' phone number in her Rolodex and was now, with great relief, forwarding his inquiry to us.
I told Casey what the highest score in the world was (it was achieved by our night manager). Casey's score and the night manager's score were the only two scores we had on Galaga. "You have the second highest score in the world," I announced solemnly.
Casey was ecstatic. He shouted the incredible news to someone else at his end of the phone. He promised that he he would get back on the game immediately and try to become number one.
The scoreboard started simply as this. The next day we had two phone calls, one of them from Casey with a newer, much higher score...
By the end of March, the scoreboard was getting about twenty-five calls per day. In April, international calls started arriving from Japan, Mexico, Italy, and Canada. I changed the name of the scoreboard to the "Twin Galaxies International Scoreboard." (pp. 759-761).
EDIT: Not to put too fine a point on it, but TG's promotional efforts to be the "official scoreboard" led to significant press coverage back in the day. A quick search through the newspaper archives will provide numerous examples of articles about local players calling into TG to have their score accepted as a world record; other papers carried a TG sample of high scores with information about how players could submit their own scores like this example from the Charlotte Observer 10 Sept 1982. TG records and submission info were also carried in gaming magazines like Joystik. In light of Walter's central role in TG's administration, his exhibit that "Twin Galaxies solely operated through on-site referee verification" during the 80s is confusing and inaccurate.
Again if you go back and watch Chasing Ghosts Walter credits a kid named Steve Juraszek as the first to ask about a video game score through Williams on the game Defender. A couple years back when we interviewed Walter on Settle It On The Screen that whole story was changed with a different kid on a different game. I remember doing the interview live and in my head I thought "Wait, what?".
I'm not the one that found this link but it was shown to me earlier today. I think the contents of this forum thread is very interesting. Where Mark Alpiger recalls a phone call with Billy.
Mark says and I quote --
"When I talked a couple of times with Billy (the only times that I have via phone) around the turn of the Millenium, he said that he had actually proven this, by setting MAME to cheat mode, and used infinite lives to show that you needed the 240 dot count to advance past the splitscreen. BTW, he said that the next screen was the normal screen 1 in every way, except that the prize item line at the bottom right remained intact from the previous screen."
Another interesting link that kinda ties into that forum discussion.
I am shocked - SHOCKED! - to find out there's lying going on in Team Billy's establishment!
[QUOTE=Ninglendo;1087757]Just in case that forum thread gets deleted because of added pressure to do so here are the screenshots.
Yes. It is interesting that threads, names, and scores SOMEHOW always seem to disappear when the heat is on.
Especially during the "Jurassic era", when the corrupt dinosaur referees roamed the "galaxy".
To Streetwize... If the Anti Slap doesn't throw out Mitchell's case in October, which is likely to happen, Mitchell has to prove that Twin Galaxies knew the 3 DK scores were legitimate after the dispute process, but purposely removed them because they don't like Mitchell in essence.
"Defamation". TG along with others like Carlos Pineiro and myself assisting Carlos, who were initially on behalf of Bill, thoroughly examined the footage of the 2 scores that had long been represented as arcade records for years until a dispute was brought to TG, which triggered the investigation into the recreation of the direct feed setup on the exact equipment used to allegedly record the games on the tapes, in the case of what Carlos and myself were privy too from Mitchell, and similar equipment that TG, Chris Gleed, and others used to also recreate the direct feed setup, and also examine the footage of the games, which they did, frame by frame, and even received digitized copies from an ally of Bill's which showed even more clearly the emulated signatures throughout the entire course of the footage of those games. It is not a question of "IF", but "When" the truth will come to light in a courtroom if it goes that far.
Hi Steve, thanks for your comments. Working with people on Team Billy, what are your thoughts on HeadCasey Ross making hit videos now in an attempt to shame or embarass former members or investigators?
Here she is mocking Carlos and Apollo, calling them terrible names. I really don't see her helping Billy at all. She seems to have replaced Joel West as the public relations disaster, although with less visible seething anger.
When I looked up a site mentioned in the files that was once owned by Dwayne Richard, the domain appeared to be turned into propaganda for him as a YouTube video. I left a few comments calling the uploader out for clear bias and deflection, but then someone named "Billy Mitchell" tried to rebuff me. In a second comment he just flat out calls me a knucklehead. The first comment states the same things Mr. Mitchell would, but I cannot confirm if this is actually him since the profile lacks any sort of information whatsoever. Someone more familiar with him could verify if what he says lines up with him. It could very well be someone impersonating him, or even van Buren himself. I'll leave it all here, grab some dinner, and catch up on what I missed in case there's anything I need to reply to. I know someone mentioned me earlier at least.
My archive to preserve proof
Edit: To prevent link spam since I can't seem to disregard links from editing. I only wanted to link the comment; not the video itself.
watch?v=6llcA-Gk1N4&lc=Ugwx79XEwCBBvfHOjGd4AaABAg.8rL0nyYBmI09BNqMUNw0 ui Him saying things he previously stated
watch?v=6llcA-Gk1N4&lc=UgwYkVy-ibgs5UgvdHF4AaABAg.8rMHsH-dXL79BNrOtKX_C1 Calling me a name
Oh. Turns out I only missed one other post.
It's nice to see how blind Billy is when damning himself in his efforts to exonerate himself. I don't know much about the legal world, but I can use logic at least. The way this case should go is pretty clear-cut. I'm not one to usually think too far ahead, though I'm sure they're already prepared if it does actually go to court. The way you make it sound though, Steve, is like the evidence he provided won't mean much at all if that's the crux of the case. But hey. If who commented really is Mr. Mitchell, then he's no less innocent in the YouTube harassment he wants to claim he was victim to. It's kind of an honor to get insulted by some big name whose internet presence is limited anyway. That's not something that happens every day 😜, even though it's the reason I bothered to reply and slam his "shifting the goalpost" argument.
The lady in question is EXTREMELY similar to the other person whose video I linked for the comments (vanBuren20). I'm not going to waste much time with her. The people he's getting to support him really aren't making him look good. Attacking Apollo Legend is one thing, but Mr. Piñiero is just low. Both are people who aren't in positions to defend themselves at all, but Carlos was just trying to do his job. She claims he can't get his story straight, but whatever contacts she's wearing must be really blurry. The arguments she presents have no weight at all, and the number of contradictions in Mr. Mitchell's packages between both the two of them and the facts is a pretty transparent example of someone who can't keep THEIR story straight. His story isn't even straight regarding Mr. Piñiero himself. First Carlos supposedly retracted his findings and was in support of him, and now he supposedly never represented him? Why did he go to Carlos in the first place for his signature then?
It's stupid; she's just a parrot, and the information Datagod posted about her revealed just how much of a bias she has in all this. Shame he got banned though. I know he causes some issues, but it looked like he was starting to show a little improvement. I was kinda hoping he'd help verify if the "Billy Mitchell" who commented on my post spoke anything like the real one. If anyone else can help (or if there's a way to contact him [Datagod]), I'd appreciate it.
Casey Ross, who I know little about, nor do i care too, TROLLED my facebook page a few weeks ago and tried to start **** with me by commenting on a post I had made a week earlier, ripping on some music lyrics I posted.....
Casey Ross Don't quit your day job. This isn't poetry.
Steven KleisathIf you would like to check out my day work, look up "Further Seems Forever" and "The Darling Fire" on Spotify, Pandora, or anywhere really, lol
Casey RossMat McGill touche I guess I should have said not *good* poetry. The drummer maybe should add depth of word smithing to the rhythm, I suppose.
Steven KleisathCasey Ross well considering the singer for my group is one of the most modern influential singer songwriters of the last 15 years, I guess you can only please some of the people some of the time.
Casey RossBuy my book on Amazon, Kindle, LuLu, Barnes & Noble or anywhere. We can trade.
Casey RossNah, I'm just giving Steve a little of his own medicine. He certainly has had opinions on my art. As has most the community. I'm allowed to dis art I don't like. I'm pretty art accredited. Dish and take, gentlemen.
Steven KleisathMy own medicine? Um i know very little about any of your art nor have I made mention of it.This is a post from a week ago that has nothing to do with you that you just decided to make a reply on. Lets dial down the delusion.
Casey Ross Steven Kleisath You forgot how we met, huh?
Steven Kleisath Yeah read our message thread to get re-acquainted in which i state the same thing. Initial contact was about an arcade contest that Sid Seattle put me in contact with you about. You stated what the whole thing was about , unbeknownst to me,and i gave a thumbs up. Where are the comments and insults and critique i made about your art? Please screen shot those and repost here please. I will be happy to screen our whole FB message thread here if you would like.
SO.... We have never physically met ofcourse, and we have a grand total of one private message on Facebook from almost 2 years ago in which I messaged her giving her my arcade accolades for an "arcade contest" that Sid Seattle(Robert Racek) told me she was putting together. She replied telling me it was actually a playwright she was doing and the arcade part of it was a side event and already filled up, guest spot wise at that point, and I literally thumbs upped her reply and that was it. Never any other communication again, LOL.
"Don't confuse these people with the facts"- Neil Rogers.
Casey RossSteven Kleisath You forgot how we met, huh?
This is all you need to know...The FACTS!!!
Guinness World Records Should Stay Out of Gaming (Karl Jobst)
Skip to 10:02 if you want the comments specifically about Billy Mitchell.
The date in the magazine is April 24, 1982, and the date on the scoreboard is September 28, 1982. Not a big deal or anything but it raises more questions about the quality of the old score submissions. In this case it could be a mistake in the database, or in the info Walter sent over to Joystik, or a data entry error by the staff at Joystik, and who can really say after so much time has passed. We depend on the scoreboard to have valid data, but a full auditing against TG data published elsewhere will make it more difficult to have confidence.
My apologies if this was already known and doesn't advance the discussion at all! I just face-palmed when I checked a single score and happened to find an error.
John Oliver clip referenced by Jobst:
Jump cut to 12:18
I'd consider he crossed up dates while writing them all down.
I would say "You're not going to believe this," but you totally will.
Billy Mitchell is now issuing legal threats against Karl Jobst over his latest video. He even hired an Australian legal firm to issue the threats.
Billy is issuing legal threats? Who could’ve ever foreseen this...
Fact of the matter is, BM thinks he's a professional speaker "
makes a claim that it is a fact that billy thinks X. I am not a trained public speaker, but I have been watching Scott Adams podcast for about 3 years now. I bought his book Loserthink, and now I enjoy pointing it out when I see it.
Howdy, folks! So I'd like to take a moment to collect evidence some people have found regarding the claim from Team Billy that Kimberly "Morningdove" Mahoney was acting as an official Twin Galaxies referee for the FAMB score in 2007.
For now, I'm setting aside her presence at Boomers in 2010. She indeed was an official referee-at-large in 2010, and we know she was present with the Billy crew at Boomers one afternoon, because we see her in one of their silly stunt videos. We don't see an actual Donkey Kong PCB in the board swap video, and we don't see any actual Donkey Kong play, and we don't see a high score on the machine, but we do see Mahoney there with the others (along with daylight pouring in through exterior doors during what should've been the middle of the night, but that's another story we've already covered). Instead, I'm focusing on her alleged presence at the mortgage brokers convention where Billy claimed he achieved 1.05m, and how her presence as a referee for that score appears to be a retcon.
This claim originated in Billy's September 2019 evidence packet, although not much was made of it at the time. This was because there were so many much more outlandish lies being thrown around in that document which drew our focus instead, and because Mahoney herself had not issued a statement. But let's start with that document. Here was Mr. Mullet himself, talking about the FAMB score in his signed declaration on page 53 of 156:
Here's Todd Rogers, on the following page, saying the same thing:
And here's Walter Day on page 107 of 156, also reiterating that Mahoney was there in an official capacity.
Billy reiterates this multiple times in his recent court declaration. First, on page 4 of 41:
Let's set aside the laughable notion that Twin Galaxies dictated score adjudication terms to Billy, when all evidence we have suggests he and his friends simply got together, told TG staff he had gotten a high score, and when necessary made threats of retaliation if they didn't recognize it (and that was only when Walter Day wasn't present to rubberstamp Billy's claims without objection).
Billy continues across pages 4 and 5:
Billy once again cites Mahoney as being an official referee both for his 2007 FAMB score of 1.05m (which we know to be cheated) and for his 2010 Boomers score of 1.062m (also cheated), on page 24:
In Billy's declaration exhibits, on page 40 of 214, Todd has a signed statement covering both the 1.05m and 1.062m scores. You know what he's gonna say:
Lastly, we get to the woman herself. In Billy's declaration exhibits, pages 45 and 46 of 214, Kimberly "Morningdove" Mahoney finally speaks up with a statement, signed Sept. 30, 2019 (too late for inclusion in Billy's legal threat earlier that month). I'm going to include the entirety of her statement below. You don't have to read all of it if you don't want, but I want you to notice specifically her claim of when she started working as an official Twin Galaxies referee:
(I think someone already asked the question in this thread, if the machine was padlocked, and there was no way to access the inside of the cabinet during the event, then how can she be so sure "the machine was a legitimate Donkey Kong arcade machine with original unmodified hardware"?)
Okay, so they all have their stories straight. They figured it out. Morningdove Mahoney was definitely for sure for reals at the event as an official Twin Galaxies referee. Good thing, too! After all, Todd's word is (to use polite language) significantly compromised. Billy's pretty lucky that this second referee has emerged to help corroborate their story.
Problem is, that's not what the record reflected at the time.
Let's start with the official Twin Galaxies press release. It says two referees ("experts at Donkey Kong") would later review the tape. (Side note: Remember above how Billy said "The recording of this score was for entertainment purposes and future use, and at no point was it adjudicated by Twin Galaxies"?) But the only referee noted as being on-site for the score was Todd Rogers.
Note how this is in contrast to the press release for the Boomers score three years later, which makes a point to mention Mahoney as a referee.
Getting back to the 2007 score, MTV's written coverage at the time, which included new details and new quotes from Mr. Mitchell himself, still attributed the on-site adjudication to Todd Rogers alone.
Almost two months after the FAMB event, Todd Rogers complained about Billy's portrayal in the movie King of Kong on the Digital Press forums. In doing so, twice did he describe his live verification of Billy's 1.05m (which he also mistypes as 1.5m), both times giving no indication whatsoever of another referee on site.
Gosh, what detail! Not only did Billy have Todd present as referee, but he also had a live feed of his play and another camera on a tripod. Odd no mention of a second referee, though. (Wait... Wasn't their excuse for submitting sketchy direct feeds that they didn't want to risk destroying a camera on a tripod? And where did this tripod footage go, anyway?)
Not one to miss out on the fun, Robert Mruczek, who at the time was an ardent supporter of Billy and a believer in his scores, reiterated the Todd-only narrative on the Classic Arcade Gaming forums.
Now, this is where you might point out that they don't literally directly say "There were absolutely no referees present other than Todd Rogers, whatsoever." You'd be pretty silly to think, through all these concerted attempts to legitimize Billy's FAMB event score, that they would've repeatedly failed to mention there were two referees and not just one, but if you were desperate to explain all this away, I suppose that's the story you would go with.
Unfortunately, Mahoney reached just a little too far in testifying that she was a Twin Galaxies referee starting in 2003. Because, you know, we have records for that.
Let's start with this staff list from December, 2003:
Nope, not on there. But hey, you might say, maybe it hadn't been updated in a while.
Well, here's the list, captured on February 11, 2004, after an update:
Still no Morningdove. Todd's there. No Morningdove.
Later that year, the list was completely redone for migration to TG's new website. Here's the list on August 10, 2004, still with no Morningdove:
The list goes through a few iterations until this one, on December 11, 2005 (still with no Morningdove Mahoney):
Note that that capture shows the first appearance of a referee named Christian Cram. We'll get back to her in a minute.
The very next day is a new capture after another update. Still no Morningdove:
Notice how, in the bottom list of "Trained referees available", they have three people listed as options for the New Hampshire area, but the only referee available in Florida is Todd Rogers.
March 27, 2006. Walter Day's name is removed from the top list of "Twin Galaxies staff members", for some reason. Still no Morningdove:
After Day's three month absence, he's restored to the list, as captured on June 18, 2006. But still no Morningdove:
Flash forward to January 5, 2007. A few people, including David Nelson, are added to the top list of TG staff members. Also, very subtly, a list of regional refs for North America is added in the middle of the page, to go along with the referees-at-large listed at the bottom. But still no Morningdove Mahoney!
March 15, 2007 reflects another update. Notice how Billy Mitchell's name and "Board of Directors" credit is removed from the top list, which surely has nothing whatsoever to do with any depictions of Twin Galaxies in any movies coming out around that time. But still, no Morningdove:
Flash forward to June 29, 2007. Another update. A new name in the top list. A new ref for Europe and Australia. But still no Morningdove. This is getting to be crunch time. Will she become a ref in time for Billy's event in July?
Well, the big day came and went. By August 6, 2007, Terence O'Neill had added MAME adjudication to his workload, but still no Morningdove.
Up until now, we've had to go by Wayback Machine capture date, as TG was editing their referee list without notification. But starting here, they actually change the date of this document to reflect the most recent change. Here's the capture on September 11, 2007, showing the list change from September 10 (and still no Morningdove):
October 15th update. A couple new names. Still no Morningdove:
December 19th update. A new name, plus some new responsibilities for Adam Wood. There's now a designated "Twin Galaxies Editorial Staff" section. But still no Morningdove!
January 17, 2008. They completely redid the list. Walter Day is "President and Chief Scorekeeper". Todd Rogers is a senior referee. All the categories are redone. No more list of regions. Instead there's just a list of referees-at-large to cover situations not covered by designated platform referees. Among the new names, as a referee-at-large, is Jennifer Carmichael. (We'll get to her as well in a moment.) But still no Morningdove Mahoney. Will she ever show up?
April 27, 2008 represented another complete redo of the list. Surely, Morningdove shows up now, right?
Nope, still not there.
We're now up to June 18, 2008. Yet another update. New names like Lance Eustache. (Some of you remember him from the Triforce dispute in 2018.) David Nelson gets a promotion from Senior Referee to Chief Referee. But STILL no Morningdove?
That brings us to the August 28, 2008 update, and finally, at long last, Morningdove Mahoney is added to the official list as a referee-at-large.
Morningdove claims to have "joined Walter Day's administration in 2003" specifically as a referee, but she doesn't show up on the list until August 2008.
Now, I asked you to remember the names Christian Cram and Jennifer Carmichael. You might've picked up on the fact that, between the two of them and Morningdove Mahoney, that's three women. Women are of course half the total population, but very under-represented in these referee lists, for reasons we won't get into at this time. Well, someone pointed to me a forum post in May 2007, announcing Jennifer as the "2nd female member of the TG staff".
The first female staff member would not be Morningdove, but rather Christian Cram, who was on these lists for much of their duration.
Now, I'm interested in the truth, which means I'm not looking to just sweepingly dismiss inconvenient facts. Some will astutely point out that Jennifer was announced as a ref-at-large via a forum post in May 2007, and yet was not added to the official list until it was overhauled in January 2008, despite a few smaller updates along the way. Could the same thing have happened with Morningdove Mahoney? Well, again, this is where common sense is helpful. We objectively know Jennifer was missed in a small number of staff list updates for eight months, and was included in the first complete overhaul of the list. Are we really supposed to believe Morningdove Mahoney got missed for dozens of updates, including multiple complete overhauls, consistently across the span of five years?
In my due diligence, I reached out to one Robert Mruczek, longtime head referee for Twin Galaxies, and asked him if he recalled Morningdove ever being an official TG referee during his tenure. He issued the following response:
By all means, go ahead and quote me that I do not recollect her as a referee prior to my departure from TG on 12/19/06 AND that I recollect Todd got her on staff AFTER I had left.
Of course, that date of December 2006 given by Mruczek would still have hypothetically given her time to be added to the official referee roster prior to the July 2007 FAMB event (aside from the fact that she was objectively not on the public list), but it would not change the fact that she testified to having been a TG referee starting in 2003.
But maybe you throw your hands up and say "Well, who knows? Maybe Morningdove Mahoney had a secret pact with Walter Day himself. Maybe Walter and Walter alone knew that she was acting as some sort of special secret agent referee strictly at his behest, and that no one else, not even the head referee, was allowed to know of her top secret mission." It would be a stretch, sure, but let's just entertain that last possibility.
That brings us to the last item that was found. In 2006, a forum thread was started on Twin Galaxies, asking who would be in attendance for that year's Funspot tournament. (This was the year after the infamous incident with Billy sending in the 1.047m tape to be played.)
Morningdove was not on the confirmed list, but - not that it really matters - we know she attended as she appears in a few photos from that event posted to Mark Alpiger's website:
At any rate, following the event, Walter Day himself replied to the forum thread, openly asking for hometown information on a few people who were in attendance, for inclusion in a poster. One of those people was Morningdove Mahoney:
It would seem Walter Day went from not knowing where Morningdove was from nor how to contact her in 2006, to four years later, making her Walter Day Collection card number THREE (behind only Billy Mitchell at #1 and Ralph Baer at #2).
What I find interesting is that across the 8 or 9 phone calls that BM and Friends® made to me the Monday before the Big Bang event that they only mentioned that "Todd was present" "Todd was the referee" "Todd was there".
Nobody mentioned Morningdove to me until some time later, after I raised the point that Todd was - at that point in time - no longer a referee and per Pete Bouvier's own edict was "no longer to be adjudicating scores"
To me, it sounded like a retcon.
1. Is there any documentation todd wasnt a ref
2. Is there any reason why the website regularly erroneously for a long time to follow continued to claim todd was a ref?
However, the role change was actually announced back on 31 March 2010 (effective 1 March 2010):
ah thx i was so focused on the earlier score even though big bang was clearly stated my brain was still seeing the mortgage brokers
A few years prior... Walter's role was officially defined as TG's "Chief Evangelist". In other words, a figurehead. A "celebrity" figure to represent Twin Galaxies in public without any official day-to-day role. The "Chief Evangelist" was not a ref, adjudicator or anyone who had any decision making power at Twin Galaxies. Basically TG's President Jack Tunney.
A short time before the Boomers / Big Bang farce, Walter "went to work on his music" and stepped out of the role. Pete actually WANTED Walter out of the role for reasons I never quite got filled in on fully. So Todd was bumped to the "Chief Evangelist". I was given Todd's "Deputy Chief Referee" role which was re-named to "Division Manager" at that time with Todd's move to "Evangelist"
With the move, Todd was also removed as the referee to mail any tapes into. I remember that because it meant the consoles he was covering that others weren't covering fell into my lap until / unless someone else came on board who could cover the platforms in question.
It's possible there's posts somewhere talking about this but hell if I know for sure. It might as well been a million years ago to me by now. I was informed that someone else on the staff at that time chimed in a couple years ago to vouch for my version of the series of events that went down there but I don't have first hand info on that. Might be in this thread somewhere. Might not be. Might not be informed correctly on that.
But at the end of the day... Todd was long gone from "being an adjudicator" by the time the Boomers thing came along, which is why one of my points of contention that long evening where the Mitchell World Order worked to strongarm me into recognizing it was their "Todd was there. Todd saw it. Todd Todd" thing.
At that point it was irrelevant if Todd witnessed it. And not a one of them on the calls that night mentioned Morningdove to me. Not BM... not Sanders.... not Walter and not Todd.
Wasn't mentioned until later. I always took that as a counter to my note about Todd's status at that time.
** EDITED BY DATAGOD TO REMOVE ARGUMENTATIVE LANGUAGE NOT HELPFUL TO DISCUSSION**
People who are promoted are not "removed". They are given additional responsibilities.
Here is the official TG announcement that Todd was promoted to Chief Evangelist. March 2010.
Nowhere does it say Todd can no longer adjudicate. Why would they ever make that rule. Todd was a highly respected referee with decades of experience under his belt. He was invited to many events, welcomed like a champion. They trusted him and he would be the perfect person to perform live adjudication at high profile gatherings.
** EDITED BY DATAGOD TO REMOVE ARGUMENTATIVE LANGUAGE NOT HELPFUL TO DISCUSSION**
i've also spent a while looking into this and found nothing solid but datagods comment on the same subject makes me wanna share what little i have
with it not explicitly stated either way, hard as i looked all we have is others comments. Honestly i dont think the lack of explcit comment means nothing. If the verifying remained, why state it? you dont normally say "oh by the way nothing changed". but even if he was no longer allowed to verify i can see that going unmentioned to since the focus was the promotion and it wasnt a disciplinary action.
now my above logic/speculation aside onto the hearsay.
wolf morror @fbx and this is hearsay of hearsay, remember rtm saying todd wasnt supposed to verify. RTM adamantly denied he would say such a thing. Its possible of course wolf confused rtm for someone else.
@RTM, his denial, based on the wording could be taken to just to mean he'd never say that cause hes sure he doesnt know as opposed to hes sure its wrong, so thats inconclusive
@Barthax at one point recalled todd would briefly be "deputized" and allowed to ref events on case by case basises, so while it wasnt one of his main duties any more he was still allowed to do it when the situation arose.
hearsay is never ideal, perhaps reaching out to those 3 could yield more concrete info
Ultimately: the staff page was almost always out of date for one reason or another.
OriginalPSP is accurate in this regard. Long before Walter got an official title of "Chief Evangelist" he was basically a figure-head. People clamoured after his input on various aspects of adjudication even though he had stopped adjudicating from around 2006 onwards. It was just easier to give him a title that highlighted he was an associated personality but had zero referee capabilities.
Side-note: Walter had retired multiple times from TG. I believe the "Chief Evangelist" title came after one of the retirements were rescinded but I can't be certain of the exact dates.
I want to make some things clear.
I'm only back here as time allows because Jace asked me personally to come by and add in my input to the Mitchell stuff.
I am not here to argue with people who'd try to question me if I said the sky was blue. I am not here to discuss claims about me in a thread about another topic and person. I am not here to deal with "personal" beefs from people who don't even know me personally in the first place.
I already discussed this with Jace as well. He made it clear that I won't have to for long should that start. Looks like he may have to keep to his word sooner than later.
I have no dog in this hunt. I have no reason to be less than honest about anything relating to the Mitchell topics and incidents and issues close to him. Those who pay fair attention will see that every single thing I've ever said about this has either 1). Later been seen to be true by others first-hand or 2). I've been backed up by others that were around at the time.
I've even told Jace to consider anything I say about Mitchell and related incidents to be my official statements and that I will sign a document under penalty of perjury if/when asked.
I thank Barthax for being the sole person who could put his differences aside with me in the replies above to acknowledge their accuracy. That's all I'm here when I'm here for. To add context and info to this important topic for sake of accuracy.
Let's all be adults. Let me reiterate in an attempt to get this thread back to the real world.
As per Pete and David at the time, Todd was "no longer a referee" by the time of the supposed Boomers score. Hence my literally being given everything he was (supposed to be) doing at TG at the time of the switch. He was to take over Walter's powerless figurehead role verbatim, except maybe the shirt.
The note about him possibly being "deputized" at times might have merit. But also irrelevant as neither he or Mitchell could have "deputized" him for Boomers. I'm certain that would require someone near the top at the time doing it first, but none of us were even made aware of that whole thing prior to them being there.
I was only told of Morningdove's "witnessing" of it well after the fact.
Let those comments sit for what they are.
I joined TG in 2007. Around 2008-2009, I mailed to Todd a few 2600 VHS tapes, as he was listed as the Atari 2600 referee. (Tom Duncan was co-referee during this time as well). I ALWAYS PMed first before I sent anything off, to make sure of their status. Both always responded within a few day, "go ahead"...
Todd took a while to verify some of my tapes, sometimes months, but he eventually did it.
Tom was much more of the "active referee and gamer" at that time. He typically verified within days of receipt...
When Todd became "referee at large" status a few years afterwards, then Tom Duncan was the sole referee for that platform.
I kept my own personal records on a notepad, in which I still have... The date submitted/mailed in...the game, description, score, referee, etc.
I was also curious about Mitchell's Donkey Kong Jr - was that score explicitly discussed alongside his DK score on the phone?
It looks like he already had a "zebra suit" of his own:
Im referring to Todd's timeline... I thought that is what the conversation WAS originally about, going back a few posts prior...
His status as referee, at large, chief evangelist, etc.
No idea how Walter got twisted into this...
there was semantics on what the word even means, both at large and in a tg sense. very interesting sematnics. but yes the real point is, was todd allowed to verify or not while he was chief evangelst. doesnt really matter what the dictionary says about chief evangelists or what other chief evangelists could do, all that matters is if he was tg authoirzed to ref or not while holding that title. that has become a pretty key point. and i might point out a strange one. i mean he did ref it, publicly, so the claim he couldnt when he did i'm having time following especially when theres evidence he veriifed other records while holding that title
Do we know who entered the Boomers score into the database?
In the article Split-Screen Man, more is said about the Boomer's scores and the problems the situation posed to TG referees:
"David Nelson, who was chief referee at the time and told me he has no stance on whether or not Mitchell cheated, does remember controversy surrounding whether or not to accept the scores. He told me the referees discussed the issue for hours, and were particularly hung up on the fact that Mitchell had not allowed Twin Galaxies to arrange for an impartial referee.
“When someone is going to set a world record of this caliber, really the procedure should be to contact Twin Galaxies, tell them of your intention, and we will work out how to get a referee to you to witness it, and the referee will be one of our choosing. Billy went ahead and selected his own referee to witness his score, and he did it in secret without anybody’s knowledge,” Nelson said. “It was a very difficult decision because none of us liked the circumstances but the decision came down to, you know, we’ll accept the score.”
Nelson also described a tense conversation with Mitchell and Steve Sanders, Mitchell’s friend since their showdown at the Life magazine shoot, in which the two encouraged Nelson to accept the score with an ultimatum. “I didn’t like how I was being addressed and being told, ‘Yes, if you don’t accept this score, there’s going to be trouble.’ It’s hard to take that not as a threat, but I took it more as, well, he had plans. He had plans to make the score a big deal, and he had plans to announce it here, and if Twin Galaxies says they’re not going to take it, oh, that’s going to screw up all of his plans. But then I got from Steve Sanders, I got him telling me, ‘Hey, Dave, do the right thing.’ That didn’t sit well with me either. Anybody who comes to you and says, ‘Do the right thing,’ they don’t mean do the right thing. They mean do the right thing for them. Do what’s in it for them.”
Patrick Scott Patterson, then the assistant chief referee, told me he heard a similar version of events from Nelson immediately after the confrontation took place. He also echoed the idea that at least some of the referees had reservations about accepting the scores, him included."
I would add that Todd's recollection about how he became involved with Mitchell's Boomer event evolved as well.
In the EGM article:
"In a video recorded at Big Bang, he says, “There was no intent at the beginning to make any records. I went down there to shop for tarantulas.” Rogers collects spiders, and his shop of choice, Strictly Reptiles, is in Hollywood, Florida—close to Boomers but across the state from his home. In the Big Bang video, he goes on to reiterate that “nothing was arranged” but says he eventually goaded Mitchell into attempting a record.
During our interview, Rogers told me that he drove down “primarily” to buy tarantulas. “I think Walter [Day] had mentioned something to me briefly beforehand,” he added. Day was no longer running Twin Galaxies by that point, so any communication would presumably have occurred in an unofficial context."
Compare to what Todd said in the recent exhibit declarations. Take note how Todd apparently received "delegated authority" to officiate from the late Pete Bouvier, which conflicts with information we've just reviewed, including the controversy around score acceptance:
"In late July of 2010, I contacted Pete Bouvier, the new owner of Twin Galaxies, and told him that I would be coming to South Florida to do some personal shopping. I wanted to spend time with him, as we had in the past. As my plans came to fruition, it became obvious that I would be visiting Pete during a time that he and Billy Mitchell were involved in an event at Boomers Arcade. During my visit, Pete and I went to Boomers. We verified the Donkey kong machine's settings and the recording set-up. The back of the game, with the recording equipment, was purposefully left open during the entire event for complete transparency and to facilitate the adjudication process.
Kimberly Mahoney was present as a third member of Twin Galaxies staff. Originally, I was under the impression that Pete Bouvier would officiate the world record attempt. However, he delegated the responsibility to myself and Kimberly Mahoney, deciding to go about his daily business during the weekend while making frequent visits to the venue to check on the situation."
The story of all the TG staff getting together and talking it over only adds weight to the claim that Todd was legitimately a referee.
In hindsight the score shouldn't have been accepted. Did old TG break their own rules? It seems to me that they made the rules as they went along, all loosy-goosey which is what was capitalized on.
accusing todd of being a biased referee and accusing billy of selecting his own biased referee is pretty different from accusing todd of not being a referree. in fact, its an admission from nelson hismelf that todd WAS a referee, just not the right one for the particular job
May 27 2010 Snapshot:
Atari 2600 (VCS): Todd Rogers
Atari 400/800/XL/XE: Todd Rogers
Atari 5200: Todd Rogers
Atari 7800: Todd Rogers
Atari Jaguar / CD: Todd Rogers
Atari Lynx: Todd Rogers
Atari ST: Todd Rogers
Intellivision: Todd Rogers
Rogers, Todd - Classic Gaming Evangelist
November 30 2010 Snapshot:
Rogers, Todd - Classic Gaming Evangelist
In that sense, any player reviewing the list to confirm the appropriate referee for their submission wouldn't send it to Todd.
the reason i'm nit picking this point though isnt just cause i nit pick everything (i do, but thats not the case here), rather this detail is important and goes a long way to counter morning dove being the ref by attempting an explain a motive to lie. the motive being, if todd wasnt qualifed they needed to lie and claim morning dove was. so whether or not todd had the right to continue referee duties after being a chief evangelist sounds subtle, but remember the context it was brought up in, and the point being made from it, it becomes extremely relevant.
this is about did todd have the right to verify the score or not. now you've found there were indeed issues picking job. but if it turns out he wasnt just biased, he wasnt just selected by billy and not tg itself, but he actually wasnt even a ref, well that point was major and now that its coming time to ask for proof of such a huge accusation i dont think we can dismiss it as a minor detail unless of course the accusation itself is decided to be small. but i got frustrated when something is a major point when believed, but the moment its questioned suddenly its a small point that i shouldnt be questioning
another point to consider for the morning dove tie in. its only relevant if todd wasnt a ref at all
if the problem was billy went over TGs head selecting todd, then he equally went over TGs head selecting morning dove. so it would serve no point to lie about selecting her, as claims of her selection dont solve the issue
likewise if the problem was todd was biased, i would imagine the same would apply to her
it only makes sense to say they made her up after the fact if
1. todd wasnt a ref
2. she was (or they can convince people she was)
todd not being a ref is the only reason they would need to claim another ref was there. they'd have absolutely zero motive to lie about morning dove is todd was a ref.
now on the other hand, if todd was a ref, it makes sense the secondary ref would hardly be mentioned as its so superflous. you'd only bring her up later if doubt starts to really increase and you need every little deail in your favor
so i absolutley maintain the claim todd could no longer ref is very important to verify. PSP made that statement precisely because he knew it was so huge and important, so lets continue treating it as important and do what needs to be done with all important things. verify or debunk
I may be wrong about this, but my general understanding is that a TG referee verified score was by and large (with some exceptions, yes) pretty uncontroversial. This was exactly how scores were approved at the annual Funspot tournament, for example - games were verified live, they were recorded, and later they were entered onto the scoreboard. The fact that there was any controversy or added scrutiny to the Boomer's scores when they were apparently verified live is significant, that simply saying "Todd and Morningdove were there" wasn't sufficient for TG to simply rubber-stamp the scores.
look billy has about 1001 nails in his coffin, but before we going adding a 1002 lets hold the same level of logic and evidence that we held up to this point. i feel like at first, the tg favorites were unquestonable and it was "who are you to question them" i'm starting to feel like now we've gone the other way of just immediately believing an accusation against the old favorites. and bias in the opposite direction is still bias and no better
well today has been a carpet bombing of research. I do this some of the time, usually find almost nothing that i was specifically searching for but all sorts of cool unrelated stuff. Among the somewhat related stuff that others might find interesting and I know @The Evener will find it interesting as I remember his suprise to note this earlier when it came up, was roys prediction of the event, but at the time alpiger also noticed how interesting it was roy noticed. I'd like to point out yet again the more we learn about roy the more we realize that people should've llistened to him.
A second very interesting theme, and all over TG at the time that will surprise noone, except maybe the extent, is just what a secret this event was. For a record that sites a bunch of witnesses it sure is interesting how under cover it was and how anyone that would've been a more suspicoius viewer missed their chance. In fact you can see ccag dot com that AFTER the event happened the score was still a rumor. That really highlights to me just how few people knew, even people that stay on top of this sort of thing didnt know right after it happened and only had rumors. TG threads i've found show a simliar theme where the rumor (and correct) got out about the dual records but it couldnt be confirmed. That tells you the people in attendance that did know didnt post publicly about it (though some slipped up or perhaps purposely teased the rumor through some other channels obvoiusly). Cant emphasize enough how astounding i find that. Lots of people were trying to discover the rumor, since the first rumor was more vauge that billy did something big, the second rumor was the dual records which of course later turned out to be true
but really think of that. all these hard core classic arcaders and none of them knew what it was, and those who did know were fighting the urge to post. that really tells you how many "witnesses" there were the sort of people that even would've cared versus just passer byes.
it just floors me how a public with allegedly so many witnessed was teased as rumor that something big happened and people couldnt confirm this public activity even happened for a little while.
lol heres another gem. its actually delightfully amusing seeing the different mindset a mere 10 years ago. We all know it shouldnt have been allowed, and no that wasnt hindsite, well at least it wasnt hindsite for one prophet a whole decade of his time who tried to tell people.
documented hearsay for what its worth
lol that thread is a treasure trove
heres psp himself maintaining 10 days later the score was "viewed" by two referees.. I find that interesting cause while we can argue the sematnics of view versus verify noone is denying todd was a ref.
we know have numerous sources of the time referring to todd as the ref, and documented statemet of the time of todd being listed as verifying referee. strange that someone who we supposedly now hear couldnt referee was listed on website as the referree and was cited by others as the referee (just not necessarily the most appropriate referree)
I really find it odd that Jace would reach out to Mr. Patterson for his comments. I am not sure what the goal was. Provide clarity? Provide an opportunity for somebody to say Todd was not a referee, while the forum posts say the exact opposite?
What a circus.
and now for the obvious question
which of those two refs that veriifeid billy's score went on to verify another players score?
Was it morning dove who allegedly wasnt a ref at all yet verified others scores?
Or was it todd who wasnt allowed to ref anymore, yet verified not just billy's scores but other player scores?
either way you slice it this narrative falls apart. Dont worry though the fun isnt over yet! Lets keep digging. coming up next week we'll try to prove walter day is a homo sapien despite. I mean how can we be sure any record was truly veriified if we never even see the species of the refs listed!!!!
yes i find it annoying i have to do all this reserach just to debunk the ridiculously unneeded newest claim against billy when there are already so many solid claims against him.
todd still sometimes verified things even as chief evangelist, give it time and more such examples will come out if this narrative doesnt get retracted. i've also reached out to todd, and while we all appreciate his word alone wont mean alot here he now knows of this ridiculous claim and is able to go through his old documents should he need to.
I'm convinced he was invited to participate and comment on matters - to provide us a perspective/insights of a working TG ref who was not at liberty to discuss the ins and outs of TG administration at that time. For the record, Todd was most definitely NOT a referee. I don't want to belabour with forum and Wayback links I've posted two times already, but it's there in black and white to read at your leisure.
Yes, Todd is referred to as a referee in news around the announcement of the Boomer's score - but is that such a such shock? That's exactly why Mitchell had him there - because he just happened to be in the area and decided to invite Mitchell to play some blindfolded DK / because he heard Walter Day say something about a DK game being organized at Boomers / because he wanted to hang out with Pete Bouvier and was surprisingly given responsibility to ref Mitchell's game.
The forum post you cite Snowflake from OriginalPSP, that was following the Big Bang event, after the multi-hour meeting where the refs debated what to do the morning of the planned announcement where TG finally endorsed the score. Is it reasonable to expect that in his official capacity as a TG ref, after all the hand-wringing at the Big Bang before TG finally came down and accepted the score, that OriginalPSP is going to post publicly "actually, the score should have been technically disqualified because Todd was four months removed from official referee duties"?
And now we're going to reach out to Todd to get him to confirm he had referee responsibilities and take his word over PSP's??? Save yourself the hassle and just post a link to the evidence submission where he says as much. Here it is:
Oh, that's right - he was delegated responsibility to ref the score by Pete Bouvier himself. Hmmm. That's a new, super-handy development. It actually makes the whole point of what a Chief Evangelist could do kind of moot since PSP acknowledged that higher ups could delegate, and who's more higher up than Pete? It's almost as if the other side was anticipating a possible discussion about Todd's role...
Seriously guys. If it makes it more palatable, then take OriginalPSP's statement as his "opinion" or "interpretation" of Chief Evangelist duties.
if we're gonna take people word for things why not just believe everyting billy said. we have LOTS of cases of psp and others referencing todds right to verify scores. and now years later after lots of blood bad we have a reversal.
Todd: I was a referee. I was there. I did it.
Others: no way because a Chief Evangelist would have been stripped of those duties!!!
Todd: Here is my sworn affidavit.
Others: That's just your opinion man!
Come on guys. Todd says it. PSP said it in an older post.
There is no way in Hell TG of that time period would take their most famous gamer, elevate him to a very prominent position and then "strip him of his ability to adjudicate".
Be logical. TG needed all the help they could get.
Side-note: I was not on staff by this time & have zero input on the actualities of this event.
i get not everyting is on video. i get we need witness accounts. but sometimes we have real evidence as well as common sense and a plethora old statements/hearsay/documented witnesses. not to mention the stunning lack of old statements. lots of people complained about direct feed, some complained about todd and billy being friends, yet oddly enough these people who were quite willing to complain didnt bother to bring up todd was forbiden from verifyign scores in genral. so we dont just have direct evidence, we also have lack of statemetns which at some point yes, the lack in and of itself while not a proof is evidence especialy when combined with everything else
Here The Evener himself is quoting PSP saying how there was a great deal of verification, involving many referees *including the two who saw it live*. No complaint about Todd being there adjudicating. No shock about Morning Dove being there adjudicating.
Face it. There is ZERO documented evidence that shows Todd was not permitted to adjudicate.
Why are we discussing this again?
(Not trying to detract from the possibility of Todd being deputized, even if that possibility was after the fact... just remember: TG Marketing Machine in effect once there's an announcement.)
1. fact: todd verified other scores as cheif evangelist
2. fact: people who werent afraid to complain about the score and methods of verification for some reason never (in any of the complaints ive so far seen) made any mention todd couldnt verify
3 fact: being a chief evangelist does NOT preclude one from verifying
so all we have is the word of Patrick who contradicts even himself on this, contradicts all available documentation, and for years has been shown to have strong negative feelings about billy (bias does not make one wrong, i have strong negative feelings about some people, but i would expect my word alone against them to count for squat however evidence i have against them should count, psp needs evidence not just his word)
so yes i find it more pallitable to accept dozens of peoples words including psp himselfs own words from the time, over this ridiculous new allegation of his now
My point is solely: if the words are in an announcement from TG then you have to factor in the TG "Marketing Machine" which often utilises tall words or "extended" facts. This was happening long before PSP was in on the mix, so there's no point ladeling it thick on PSP just 'cause it's his post... It's a marketing post, not (in this case) a PSP post...
yes people will give false info for many reasons especailly if its just a "litlte harmless lie" "you look pretty" when the person doesnt, got it. i'm not gonna waste time trying to evaluate psp's character and trust worthiness thats something people can do on their own but frankly i think its unneeded since we dont need to go after his credibilty for this
there was alot of "marketing" but was 2 refs being there "marketing" or was that line the kernel of truth within the marketing?
this is why i really wish TG could restore the info they had one what ref verified what record (no need for a side argument on not all records had that info, i'm just talking about the records that did have that info). If this was the only record todd verified as chief evangelist it would certianly look much more suspicoius and add weight to the accusation, but if todd verified other lower profile then it would add weight to yes chief evangelists could still verify scores.
i feel this is gonna be whats needed to convince people, since apparently when it comes to trusting peopls words, one person saying something people wanna hear is very trustworthy but lots of people saying something different is suspect (and yes even if it includes that same person). it seems we really need the documentaion of the scores that listed the refs that verified them
Conflating affidavits with signed statements is a mistake.
Having a written statement claiming you will state something in court is not the same as actually saying it in court, or getting an actual affidavit.
I know if I were to go to the trouble of collecting so many written statements I would definitely get them notarized to make my case as solid as possible.
When I called him back he told me of the whole Boomer's story, full of his typical... bravado. He wanted me to run an article about it on Examiner.com, which was a place I was freelancing apart from my role at the time of a Division Manager here (previously known as "Deputy Chief Referee").
I agreed, taking down all the info. In the piece, I noted that the scores were "pending approval and recognition by Twin Galaxies".
He called back a couple hours later and asked to see the piece before I ran it. And I broke from my typical refusal to do such a thing and let him. He told me then to remove that part, stating that the "score is official. Todd witnessed it".
That changed the whole thing into a series of calls that were apparently only supposed to be listen only. Each call had different people on it... with BM giving instructions to everyone as to how the story was going to go out there. I couldn't get a word in on any of them to raise my objections at that point... which were that they were NOT "official" and that Todd witnessing them was irrelevant given his status at TG at that point (see above).
So finally... at around 11pm... some 6 hours or so after the first phone call, I tried to interject in a call that had Mitchell, Walter, Sanders and Todd on it to enough of a point where Sanders - who I always liked personally - called me on his own moments later. I told him of my concerns, how I can't say they are official just based on that - especially given my role here at the time - and he said he'd tell the others.
I woke up to an early morning email from Walter saying they "changed their mind about my article" and outlined the Big Bang press conference thing instead. I informed David and Pete of those plans the next day and that's when the whole next part started.
To sum up... Mitchell and friend were trying to Jedi Mind Trick me into writing an article to announce the score as official, legit and recognized despite the fact that it wasn't even in the submission queue, much less in the database, and allegedly only witnessed by people who could not adjudicate at that time anyway.
Morningdove was NOT mentioned to me on a single one of those calls. It was always "Todd saw it!"
We're reaching the point with this whole thread now where I want to note a source of constant frustration over the years on this topic - and a variety of other topics - that seems to stem only from the TG-centric crowd.
I've stated for years and I'm certain this thread previously discussed this... but now things are being noted that seem to ignore the past information. I highly suggest reading things in full from time to time to help.
I wasn't happy with the whole damn thing. It was at that time - toward the end of the event - that Pete pulled me aside. Pete was the guy who made the call to "post the scores and shut him up" in the first place (and to answer another question, the scores were entered right there at the Big Bang event with about ten of us at the computer, so 'who entered it' is irrelevant. We were doing as told).
When Pete pulled me aside he told me what I was to say, reminding me that I was under an NDA with him... and varying from the 'official stance' would be seen as a violation of said NDA. That would open me up to not only forfeiture of my paycheck for working the Big Bang event but possible other legal issues.
Money was tight for the Patterson family at the time and a Donkey Kong story paled in comparison importance-wise, so I bit my lip and said "what I was supposed to" to quell any concerns.
When Pete took 4.5 months to pay us 20 percent of what he'd promised us for working the event, it led to my resignation. I was upset about the money AND the fact that I was coerced into helping this BM BS only to end up without most of it anyway. I resigned in January 2011 and my last day was February 28.
I've stated this story for years, so to not factor it in how is being willfully ignorant or demonstrating a lack of reading comprehension and retention.
When Pete sold TG, the NDA was no longer valid. I went public with this story and have told it so many times I feel like Kup from the 1986 Transformers movie. It's old news.
One must understand the difference between Brand PSP and.... just me. If you can't... then please hold questions.
As I said, I have no dog in this hunt. I have no interest in TG or Mitchell or high scores or anyone here, quite frankly. Haven't in many, many years now. I'm only interested in seeing the truth prevail and that's what me and Jace chatted about before he helped me recover my password and come here to add context.
I will only add said context from here. Not playing the reindeer games.
more useful than the article on contenders is a comment in the comment section
the contender article also has a link to a non existing article about billys score (even non existent on wayback) telling me that yes, the other article was in fact not written.
so i definitly want to explictly acknowledge Patrick has been consistent in this. Even at the time its clear he chose not to write an article he previously planned to write, and it seems completely reasonable to me to take his word on the matter that the reason is he objected to the wording he would have had to use. I totally respect that when he wasnt allowed to tell the truth due to an nda, but he also didnt want to lie, the only option was to remain silent.
these compliments/acknowledgements aside though while strongly supporting Patrick's sincerity on the matter still doesnt change that we have plenty of evidence that yes todd could still verify scores as chief evangelist.
Could you share what you recall as the internal review process/workflow at TG for a "live verified" score? If I was a Chief Referee, and I witnessed a high score and I didn't really alert anyone internally to the arrangement, did I still have the authority to sit down at a computer, log into the TG and post the score? I ask because the whole exchange in this case would have been simplified if you were asked to write an article on a verified score already in the DB.
@ersatz_cats in looking up todd stuff i stumbled on many other things, including a few points on morning dove. I dont think you found these, i read your whole post and read it again just before making this post so my apologies if you did catch this and i just missed you catching it
august 2008 is the first time the ref list showed her. yet in may of the same year she was listed as past alumni
what i find interesting, is she was a past alumni then, but we also know a future ref. is it possible she was there at 2003 briefly, left, and came back later in 2008? that could go along way to explaining the gap.
two june of 2008 posts also list her as being a ref, though that merely shows the 2008 update was late and she missed one update tops so doesnt help her case for 2003 much. also its mentioned in a more casual setting, all the refs getting together, so for someone who wanted to argue wording one could argue she was just viewed as part of the group of refs do to being close to the refs, i'm not gonna waste time arguing either position on that, but still thought the links may be of some small value
as much as i'd like to make things NOT about character and more about facts, since lets face it, biased doesnt mean wrong, as i was digging i found other things that shouldnt be ignored
remember, psp claims from some secret meeting that only he knew about and fly in the face of all other documenation including his own prior comments. but sure this secret meeting could've happened. and so now sadly we're stuck with "who do you trust", the mountains of evidence chief evangelists could verify or patricks word on his secret meeting that apparently even other refs knew about as we can see by the later comments showing they thought todd could verify they just went about it the wrong way.
now before i get into this i wanna point out i hate doing so knowing full well this will get me declared biased. I HATE how everyting is about "well that person hates me" as opposed to the facts. but here we have no facts only word and so yes bias matters
Can someone with a conflict of interest do the right thing? YES
Can someone biased do the right ting? YES
Can someone who has a reason to lie, tell the truth anyway? ABSOLUTELY YES
typically though with conflict of interest you declare it. its sad patrick felt the need to claim he has no reason to lie about this secret meeting only he can provide witnesses testimony
He strongly suggests mitchel used his influence to interfere with Patrick's career. Well my goodness, thats pretty huge. Again, doesnt mean patrick wont tell the truth, but its certainly something that should've been disclsed instead of claiing no reason to lie
further its interesting in there he points out mitchel over promoted and his accomplishments arent as amazing as made sound, possibly removed competitors scores, and yes even that the proper proedures like "no direct feed allowed" were violated in billy's submission. what amazes me is that this detailed write up of all mitchel's sins somehow leaves off todd wasnt allowed to be a ref.
and sure why not i'll declare my conflict of interest. I've felt personally slighted how jealous patrick was of some minor attention i got over minor records. so you know what, nothing i say about him i guess can be trusted. so dont trust, check out the links. i wonder if he'll make a simliar offer to provide simliar proof of his claims instead of just asking for trust.
OriginalPSP is here to tell everyone that "Sroka stole my wife's idea for Settle it on the Screen." Only after he supported our show and actually came on the show. If he was really that butt hurt about it he wouldn't have anything to do with the show. A two face liar just like the characters featured in this score dispute. Another "Video Game personality" with a hypocritical view points to position himself in the spotlight at any cost.
He is just jealous he never did this.
weird i noticed marcade was banned right after his comment. although there was some negative opinions in it, they were fairly tame compared to the anti-billy feelings allowed. can we get an update on moderation rules? because patrick himself jace made a deal with him to stop any arguing, and so in that context it sure looks biased here. pretty strong insulting language against billy is allowed, but any sort of opinioin insult (i'm grateful for my factual complaints not getting a ban) in billys defense isnt?
is there a double standard here or am i missing something?
Okay, clearly there was no love lost when OriginalPSP left TG.
His last forum post here was in 2014 just after the re-launch. Apparently he wasn't in a rush to come back.
According to his initial post
But is this the yardstick we're going to go with? "If you were pro-Mitchell in the past when part of TG staff, but critical of him today your word is mud." I can point to a few other high profile gamers who changed their view of Mitchell in a similar fashion.
Of all the things I've read about Mitchell over the last two years, a phone call between Mitchell and OriginalPSP leading up to the Big Bang event would have been at the bottom of the controversy scale.
I get that there's not a lot of goodwill towards OriginalPSP here. But as far as I can recall, he's the only ref from the Big Bang event that's weighed in directly here out of a photo that featured what, 5 or 6 refs? What he said about a pressure-filled decision process to accept Mitchell's scores was confirmed by David Nelson. Is it so outlandish that Mitchell could have called him to get some PR the Monday before the event, and then after several phone calls, Walter emailed OriginalPSP Tuesday morning to say that they were going to wait until the Big Bang? Mitchell specifically references this date in his own way during his Big Bang acceptance speech:
"It [The high scores] were something we were going to announce last Monday or Tuesday, but somebody smarter than me said the best place to announce it would be here."
From my vantage, it's less the information that's being shared here, but who's doing the sharing.
As you were.
well as i'm the group complaing about psp's comment i cant be sure if you're talking to me or others, but to iterate again, yes people are allowed to change their mind. the problem is though, is when someone contradicts themselves how do we know which statement is true? so yes its absolutely relevant to find contradictions. wouldnt you agree in court if a witness flops testimonires, sure maybe he lied the first time and told the truth the second, but that truthful statement carries far less weight after the flip flop
when all you have is someone's word their credibility is important to analyze. a flip flop -- which certainly respectable if flipping from false to true -- does still impact credibility
also, when a person falselly claims they "have no reason to lie" as opposed to declaring their conflict of interest it makes the conflict all the more supsicous.
There is a difference between changing of opinions and flat out changing facts and stories. We have already saw in old forum posts that Todd and Morningdove verifying Billy's submission was never an issue back then for PSP. Matter of fact he praised it and said it added to the credibility of the score. We saw in his official resignation from TG thread his reason for doing so was to pursue a journalist career NOT because of Billy, money, or how TG was being ran. He peacefully parted ways and said he would still stick around to write articles and keep tabs on the community. Now if writing an article about Billy's then WR was such an issue and one that would cause a person to resign why would you say in your resignation post that you would continue to write articles about TG and the player's accomplishments? Nothing that he is claiming now adds up to what was happening then. Nothing.
i'm remembering walters comment in the court papers. walter complained jace would accept all evidence agasint billy but none in his favor. i dismissed that, since the evidence in billys favor was human witnesses and the evidence against was video tapes. so of course words were dismissed but video accepted
i find it really stunning though that now though, from people who have been saying "only scientific evidnece matters", people who dismissed all sorts of witnesses testimony as unreliable, now suddenly want to accept witness testimony that goes against billy. that in and of itself is disconcerting, it gets even more disconcerting when you look deeper at all the issues with this testmony
Is any of this relevant since there is already a trial taking place that will solve all of this? People can absolutely contradict themselves years later...I know I have and I would hope to think people become wiser as they get older. I know WE ALL used to think something was this/that way when we were younger and as we got older and smarter/wiser, we realize how stupid/immature/uninformed our thinking actually is back then. Maybe OriginalPSP was forced to agree and stay silent because it was just easier than dealing with the horseshit that follows? We've all been in that situation in our lives as well. Of course he could be completely seeking attention now. None of it matters. Billy sued, TG is fighting back. Let Billy waste his time and money.
To much bad blood from the old TG carrying over now. Just leave it be. The score was proven false. Pick any God/Entity to do the adjudication on the evidence provided by Billy, they would have said it's MAME. Does any of this stuff really matter? Is it really worth your time? Two years now this score was removed and it's still being debated. Put this thread out of it's misery already to everyone can move on. The more Billy is mentioned, the longer this crap lingers.
apparently it matters enough for jace to reach out to psp -- according to psp but jace "thanked" the post with no denial, and apparently it meant enough to ban marc over.
you're right as far as billy's score goes, irrelevant, none of this changes my belief on the invalidity of his score. I'm more concerned now with the process, and yes "the truth". billy score wasnt even 10th place as i recall, the score alone was never a big deal, wasnt it always about the great search for the truth. at least for me, thats why i care, i'd be inconsistent to claim i cared about the truth, but then sat silent when i saw false information being promoted. marc being banned over it also concerns me about tg policy on the matter and frankly in turn makes me wonder if there were in fact any biases against billy behind the scenes after all
As mentioned previously, unfortunately things need to be tighten up around here. What happened in past comments is the past, and we are learning from our mistakes of letting too much slide. Moving forward we want to foster a constructive community. I say constructive because we recognize that not everything is going to be positive and there will be arguments/disagreements, but those can happen without flinging insults back and forth - Especially NOT in official dispute and adjudication threads.
I didn't think Marc said anything wrong at all, however there is a trial between TG and Billy. Maybe TG just doesn't want anything said negatively about Billy going unchecked right now because it could be used against them in the trial as being biased against Billy? Just guessing.
Previous TG was just a mess, with many ways to link everyone to everyone some how if you really wanted too. It should just be left alone. The only people I've seen banned in the last year or so poor behavior have been Kernzy, Marc, DataGod, and Desidious (I think he was, maybe not). It usually gets pretty damn bad before TG finally stops it. Maybe they are just trying to get ahead this time. I'm no to worried about that. @Sincerely Franny, why was Marc banned?
also, this forum post is now considered an official dispute? are you aware we can still edit comments since its still in the forum section. I dont think marc was aware this was being treated as a dispute, i think most of us assumed it wasa the post verdict discussion. apologies for misunderstanding that the post verdicat discussion is also classified as official dispute i honestly didnt know
Hilarious that now this is considered an official dispute thread even though it is titled "Post Verdict Dispute Discussion". Post as in after the dispute.
As for this thread, while it is not the official dispute thread it is a ancillary directly associated post discussion that warrants greater moderation.
I should also mention, there is no deal between Jace and PSP. TG simply recommended that he put his story into the thread so that it can be preserved as he would like to state it.
The same sentiment goes out to everyone here. It's just that he had not been to Twin Galaxies to post for a long time so he may not have known that moderation had been greatly increased.
Just want to quick point out some posts that came from this very thread. Both of these posts there was no action taken when it came to banning people. No warning. No nothing.
Name calling and vulgar name calling was perfectly acceptable. Say that someone is jealous of someone else and that isn't acceptable.
It's no secret to anyone that moderation for the last 5 years has been extremely lax when it should not have been. We are correcting it now. The ongoing tolerance for nonsense is at zero.
And thank you for pointing this out. We will take a look at why the censorship filters are not working.
marc didnt have to say psp would match billy in success, that may have been over the top, but his main point of jealousy was relevant as we're talking witness testimony and discussing credibiilty of witness.
sroka's comment similiar spoke to jealousy as the main point, but unlike marc, sroka's follow up provided an example of jealousy, albeit aimed at sroka and not billy so perhaps not immediately pertinent
if we're gonna have to be this careful in our wording i wonder the thread "more shenanigans with billy" will that simliarly be forced to have a name change? is calling it "shenanigans" crossing a line?
i was able to stay in line and simply post the reasons for my doubt on credibility, but i know i've been more emotional in other threads so i can understand others being a bit more emotional here. considering the theme of their comment was relevant, no swears or vulgar language was used, they simply made the mistake of going a bit in the wrong direction with their main point i think alot of antibilly will without doubt make the same misake in not long.
i've been sitting back thinking "i dont get it evener is so logical whys he falling for this", only because its you did i question myself thinking i must be misreading or missing something. I tried to imagine what if it wasnt psp and someone else giving the same testimony, but nope pretty sure i'd draw the same conclusion. however, i've been rereading this thread and i'll be damned, rereading your comments made me realize i read them wrong the first time. now i'm sure people will tkae this admission and throw it in my face, but hey, i cant very well claim to be a truth seeker if i dont admit error
so while i completely misread you, and i totally admit that, its because i assumed you read my correctly so your responses i was reading in the wrong context. I want to be clear, of course i believe billy pressured psp. you'll notice i found where psp took the article down about the event, apparently too fast for wayback to even archive it, only evidence we have it all of the article is psp linking to it in his old tg comments, so that backs his story pretty well.
the part of his story i take issue with is his secret knowlege that chief evangelists werent allowed to referee scores. thats it. I have a problem with this new info that flies in the face of so much else, and that the only evidence for is his word whereas the evidence against is plentiful. I see now we were taling about different things. you were talking about the entire context of all of patrick's statement which set the theme that billy did things against procedure and pressured people to accept his violations. I also believe billy did things against procedure and presusred people to accept. its just this one particular procedure that i dont believe ever existed and so couldnt be violated.
It was actually back in December that Jace had brought up heavier moderation. In the months that followed his post we have received numerous complaints about toxicity in the community. We are now at a point where the borderline and 'mostly tame' behavior is not going to fly.
I take responsibility for allowing as much negative behavior through that I probably shouldn't have. Jace had always left it up to my discretion on how to handle a situation. As everybody knows, excessive moderation is not something that I enjoy doing but am force to do now because of the state the community.
It's just old wounds being opened again. Never does any good. Gamers appear to be like baseball players, we never seem to just let it go. It always comes back with a high fastball to the head at some point.
That is why I am suspicious about all of this. Eight months ago Jace brought up heavier moderation but it was only acted upon once PSP made a deal (his words not mine) with Jace for what seems to be for protection from criticism and any arguments thrown his way. He was brought upon this thread per Jace's request for him to share his story. A story that contradicts his previous claims and has at least one provable lie which was about Todd being able to verify scores. We have both his previous forum posts and Marc's (one of the guys you just banned) testimony to back this up. Im going to assume Jace has access to see which ref verified what as part of the old database. If that is the case then all of this could easily be cleared up by checking that part of the database.
The other thing I don't get is that for a place that now suspiciously has a zero tolerance policy that they would bring in a person to testify knowing the person would get criticism and arguments. To me that seems like throwing gas on a fire and then fanning air into it. None of this makes a lick of sense.
I can assure you PSP's return and the increase in moderation have nothing to do with each other. Again, the reason for it is the collective growth of toxicity from the past months that has continuously turned off new members. We've reached a point that it's hindering growth. Something needed to change, because simply deleting comments and asking nicely did not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninglendo
Let's be honest here too... If this was a court of law and someone brought in a witness to testify that had provable holes in the statement the defense could prove intent of those provably false claims without being charged with contempt of court. The intent of jealousy hold water when you look at the fact he wrote an article stating he was mad Billy got booked over him (which Snowflake pointed out) and the fake DK killscreen (which Sroka pointed out). There is plenty of other examples but I rather just keep it to what has already been brought up on this thread.
really unrelated, but you know whats weird? yiou know how comments across site show on in the shoutbox/side feed on the wall page? well kyles was the last comment from here to show up. after that no future comments made its way there
i'm actually not accusing anything. i mean yes for 3 seconds my thought was "oh man they're actually limiting exposure to this thread" but then i realized no way a change like that was made this fast. so it really is just peculiar. no complain really, just a really weird thing that caught my eye
you guys went after jealousy as a reason, but my link showed his belief that billy attacked his career as another possible reason
i've gotta say i know i've been accused of "being in a gang" when its mutliple people on one side of an issue and one on the other. i feel this is slimy semantics since while techincally true -- alot of people have taken the same side, what are people supposed to do? if someone disagrees with someone else, then noone else is allowed to share their reason to disagreement less they be a gang member? the term ganging up while i concede can techincially work carries alot implication that are really annoying and false
whats extra weird here though, is the recent banning are sroka and marc. sroka is usually pretty silent. i cant imagine what gang it is sroka shows up in. and as the "recent bannings" are just those 2 people, i guess i shouldnt be sensitive as i'm obviously not in any sroka gang, but i'm still mystified
Chief Evangelist title:
It was created for Walter on one of his multiple returns to TG (Walter "retired" several times from TG to pursue his music career). Unsurprisingly, Walter's pressence with/at TG (site/events/whatever) lent a history. So it was important that if Walter was going to be somewhere where TG was, that his association was maintained. The Chief Evangelist role was created for that purpose.
Walter retired for the final time and that left a public-facing hole where the Chief Evangelist title was. (At the time) Todd was a stalwart from TG & gaming's history and so the mantle passed.
Todd had left staff previously & was occasionally deputized (I've cited the link previously but can't find it) as a referee for live events. While "Chief Evangelist" itself does not convery any referee duties, the history of Todd being deputized is a convenient way for TG to have brush the Billy Mitchell score in. It's not difficult (for me) to see the two pieces of information being used in the TG marketing machine back then - whether by convenience or design.
This conversation could go around in circles if you continue to deflect my reasoning. I can't make you believe me, but the truth is out there for those who choose to hear it.
i think every comment along the way was valid cause it was a response to a response...... however yes the end result is something different.
The topic is billy mitchel's dispute
a piece of evidence in that is patricks new testimony
counters to that evidence would also be on topic, one counter being credibilty since all we have is word, the credibility of the word factors
attacks on credibilty led to ban in some cases but not others. it makes sense after seeing a ban people would not want to be banned themselves, so a break from the dispute itself and rather a new discussion of what the rules even are becomes needed. we cant very well discuss billy without knowing how we're allowed to discuss billy.
I said in December Jace suggested heavier moderation that was up to my discretion. My discretion in the previous month had proved itself to be too lax and now needs to be tightened up. That was it on the topic of moderation. Additional, the fact that it was not impacted by PSP was the truth I was referring to. Everybody will be moderated in the same manner moving forward.
as for the radically increased severity in moderation, i cant ignore the timing, but i also know no matter when you time something its always going to coincide with something. I'll accept the answer (i mean i doubt it, but what choice do i have but accept). I also intend a little test though as i'll be paying attention going forward how comments towards others and by others are moderated.
as for suspicions Patrick in particular was given some special deal by jace, i believe i found a non toxic way to test it that noone can justifiably complain about. Beat some of his scores. While i dont deny an ulterior motive to going after his scores, thats just it, if beaten scores with an ulterior motive results in him complaining how unfair it is we took his scores and thats cracked down on, we'll know he was given a special deal after all. If however its accepted then we know timing just really was a weird coincident.
so i think i'm satisfied with that tangent, or rather, i dont think furhter dialogue will help and only time itself can satisfy concerns
Remember when Jace talked about the need to do things right because there could be legal repercussions? I think there was some skepticism that someone would sue, the implication being that Jace was taking things too seriously, that there were some posts complaining he was taking too long, there was already enough evidence, etc. Well, here we are - it got real.
Going back February 2018, xelnia wrote:
Back then, OriginalPSP's statement about a pressure-filled vote at Big Bang was looked upon skeptically by TG members. Now we've had other refs confirm it, so we've concretely expanded our knowledge of that event. Will his subsequent statements about the phone calls have any bearing on things going forward? I can't really say as one can't always foresee or anticipate when a piece of information might be useful. Sometimes it's just about having something recorded or noted, and then later on something else comes up that makes that earlier point much more significant.Quote:
And PSP always has the option of posting here and giving a more thorough account (at least if he's being honest about wanting to see Billy held accountable).
At minimum, it would seem that if Todd had senior referee rights, he could have logged into the TG database and entered the score himself that Monday since I've heard multiple times (and I think it's said as much in the evidence submissions) that a score that is adjudicated live by a senior referee is basically "verified" right then and there - it's just a formality to sit down at a computer and enter it into the DB. But instead, we had a scenario five days later at the Big Bang where TG refs had to debate and vote on the acceptance of Mitchell's scores mere hours before his planned announcement. There's zero need for that kind of situation - especially given the unpredictability it introduced in Mitchell's announcement plans - if Todd had full rights to confirm and verify the score in the DB himself. I'd like to pose more questions, and others like David Nelson may step forward to add their voice to compare. In short, I think the overall situation is serious enough that it's in our collective interest to hear someone out, get their full account down and go from there.
Toxicity = This thread.
There really is only one person who is a constant negative no matter the issue. It's JJT and at times AD. 98% of the time they are not adding anything positive to the topic, it's usually pretty harsh and negative. That's just a reality. Everybody else is pretty reasonable depending on the subject, this one being of course one of the exceptions.
Accidentally posted this on another thread so I'll bring it back here. Did Sroka really get banned for calling PSP a two faced liar and jealous? Are we know walking on egg shells at this point because moderation will be that strict or can a back bone still be used to support the stressful words of life? I'm siding with @Ninglendo on this. There have been far, far worse said about other things. While I realize @sincerely franny you may have overlooked it to the point it's now gone to far, calling someone a liar and jealous about something isn't much IMO.
I guess I hope the people who jab one another in good fun will still allowed because some of us do have a back bone and a sense of humor about things.
It's not so much that people need to be walking on egg shells. They just need to stay on the topic at hand and not bring outside animosities into the conversation when they are unnecessary. That and not call people name with ill intent. These bans were not severe in any way - It was just 24h cooldown time. As I said, I don't enjoy banning people so I try to be fair about the punishment matching the offense.
@thegamer1185 try not to point fingers. We have a fairly small community so the areas of negativity are apparent.
for what its worth, heres the original statement from facebook copied to the adjudication thread that evener pointed out some of expressed skepticism on:
Originally Posted by PSP facebook
Evener correctly points out a lot of this stuff was later confirmed by others, i would like to again point out, that despite the extreme detail, right down to the exact sum of money that resulted in psp going along with story he knew was false (note it wasnt for an NDA in his first version but rather was on a belief it would affect his pay), yet despite all that detail nothing about Todd not being allowed to referee. That alone really is my hang up. I never heard mention of this secret meeting where pete told psp before that todd couldnt verify, not even just a few years when the nda was over and this original post was made.
i will say evener made a good point that we dont always know when info will be relevant. also a point i like to make is i have no problem using wikipedia as a first stop, and then confirm with better sources for the stuff that matters. so sure, i guess i agree its good to remember this, but at the same time if we reach a point where this is info is actionable then its also worth remember this info needs much better confirmation.
I do feel that your issue is a fair objection. It seems like the ultimate factor into whether this score has any legitimacy as far as adjudication goes. Testimony by itself really can only go so far, falling out of either side's control for its validity, but I'll let one of my favorite quotes speak for itself:
"It doesn't matter how many underhanded tricks a person uses... The truth will always find a way to make itself known. The only thing we can do is to fight with the knowledge we hold and everything we have. Erasing the paradoxes one by one... It's never easy... We claw and scratch for every inch. But we will always eventually reach that one single truth. This I promise you."
He could of course just had left TG, But noooooooo, he had to starts fires everywhere to try to burn it to the ground. And for that, IMO his word around here shouldn't be trusted. As it could be partially true or all true, But why waste time on someone says who said,
"I have no interest in TG or Mitchell or high scores or anyone here, quite frankly."
i've thrown up my hands on finding the proof on another point, so i'll just state my understanding and see if anyone else can confirm
francois just quoted actually another point i was meaning to well, "argue" would be strong a word, but basically yeah. The idea that simply being a ref would automatically mean the score would've been instantly verified and entered, while typically true i believe has two major issues in this one particular case
1. I dont know if todd while chief evangelist has the technical ability to log in and do so, but the lack of such an ability wouldnt proof a lack of the right
2. and theres the big one, donkey kong in particular was a very special game. they made an entirely new ruleset. PSPs statement hints at that without stating the rules, you can also very easily find no shortage of forum posts complaining about the new rules. I am however having a great deal of difficulty finding what those rules are. My point being, its totally possible that ecen someone we all agree was a ref wouldnt have been able to auto enter donkey kong, because well, its donkey kong.
side note: In looking for the rules i was suprised to accidnetally find as recent as 2017 even tgsap created a new verification rule set for donkey kong thats crazy long. this is quite odd considering TGs rules are normally just "do you believe the score is valid" and adjudicators are allowed to use whatever metric they want to determine validity. now we have only 3 exceptions
1. direct upload is required
2. mame requires inp (at least i think thats a formal rule, if not, might as well be)
3. donkey kong in particular has its essay length rule set
personal note: i definitely understand anti mitchel sentiment and emotions in this. They made the new donkey kong rule set from what side stuff i read because they wanted to avoid king of kong style controversy in the future. That makes sense on the surface right? In order to make sure they dont get accused of any funny business or mitchel bias in the future make this new super thorough rule set. ok cool, thank you for making sure a new thorough rule set takes human bias out of the equation. but oh wait, whats this, mitchel doesnt have to follow the same rules on that rule set? doesnt that defeat the entire point? so the new rule set thats allegedly there to make sure to avoid controvery, in reality, only made things even harder for mitchel's competitors while not making verification harder for him. on the flipside, in mitchels defense "hate the game not the player". heck it was voted on after all, we have multiple confirmation of that, so this goes beyond psp, todd, and billy as the list of people that can be blamed. I find it hard to believe billy managed to intimidate more than half the voters. it would appear at least half of all the refs were in on it based on that vote.
The rules were revised in February 2008 to require a high degree of verification when scoring over a million points:
February 2009 (reflects rule change instituted 15 Feb 2008)
These "enhanced rules" were dropped by March 2010, replaced by Donkey Kong Recording FAQ
The rules cited by David Nelson that Mitchell should have reached out to TG in advance to select a neutral referee dates from the 1998 TG rule set. I'd have to consult the later editions of the TG Book of records (2005 and 2007 I think?) to confirm the language. Basically, if you were competing on what was called a mature arcade video game, you had to have a dialogue with TG. "The game becomes 'mature' when the high score becomes so exhausted that the amount of practice and continuous playing needed to budge the score up even one further point is so extreme that even the best two or three players can no longer take the time to do it." [Definition from Walter Day (1998 edition)]
In the rules there's some attention to "games played in people's basement": namely, in order to attest to gameplay and settings and have the score accepted by TG, players had to bring three witnesses together "approved by Twin Galaxies ahead of time." However, "this offer is not available if this involves a 'mature' game. This has to be arranged ahead of time through Twin Galaxies so the situation can be thoroughly examined."
now thank you for those links. a snippet of the rule which i believe goes towards both points
"All submissions for scores exceeding 1,000,000 points must be video recorded (no live feeds) and they must be witnessed by Walter Day or a Senior Referee"
This both simultaneoulsy explains why someone not allowed to verify this score is not necessarily stripped of authority, since even walter day himself is not authorized to verify scores unless theres ALSO a video recording. noone, not todd, not walter, noone was authorized to verify a donkey kong sub without video, and further rules on video rule out direct feed.
as you point out the rules changed again not long before the boomer score. Sadly its not explicit. it just gives rules on recording, no longer expliclty outlawing or allowing refing. One could reasonable assume if only rules for recording are included then only recording is allowed.
honestly in light of all this, i think twin galaxies is justified in removing billy's score solely on the grounds they broke their own rules, and that alone i think is a pretty relevant outcome that made all this worth it.
I believe this technical analysis I did about the vertical refresh rate of the Donkey Kong PCB will be relevant to this discussion.
The first sentence is rather obvious: despite being a 60 Hz monitor it isn't locked to such. The speed in DK is higher than the normal frequency yet it isn't lowered. I have no idea what it means in the bigger picture, but the next sentence seems far more crucial. Now I'm not a hardware-savvy person (lean towards software), but if I'm reading that next part right it basically means that all this investigation into recreating MAME artifacts through a regular setup was just a red herring from the very beginning: it's impossible without using MAME itself or if the board just worked that way. Mr. Childs was simply talking out of his ass... and everyone on Team Billy, including Mr. Mitchell himself, didn't know where they were going with all this.* I honestly don't blame BM for taking that route though since it all seemed like a good idea at the time. He stated in the board swap video that he's no expert in hardware, and if I were in his spot I'd gladly take the help if it led to some way to cover up the incriminating evidence with ambiguity. I could be wrong in my interpretation, and this rant would be pointless.Quote:
Originally Posted by TL;DR
Regardless, my hat is off to Carlos for his passion and integrity though I still think the analysis would have saved him a good bit time and energy.
*Edit: Obviously they had a goal, but the technical explanation offered by Childs simply was meant to muddy the water and create a possibility that Carlos intended to capitalize on.
**Edit 2: Might as well correct myself before others do now that what I overlooked got explained. The claim that the game runs at 60 Hz because of the monitor was an effort to debunk the idea that modifying MAME to replicate the girder finger is wrong. There is some math done in that post right before this paragraph that explains why exactly it's 60.6. Also worth noting is that you can see Carlos and BM allude to modification with the reference of a "cheat code" in their texts, which Mr. Mitchell wanted to believe was made up around that time to work against them.
Carlos Pineiro speaks
And here's the promised video by Karl Jobst:
Can I scream now?
After a surprisingly civil discussion between Casey and me on Carlos Piñiero's video, I was told that Mr. Mitchell plans to release another package in October. On one hand, it's something more to look forward to. On the other hand, I really just want him to give up already. How much more does this community need to break down? Every time he fights TG with alleged evidence, the community simply finds new truths that make him look worse. Maybe I'm a bit jaded with the current world issues, but this is starting to get beyond ridiculous.