Arcade - Shock Troopers - [Points[Single Player Only]] - 3,816,000

[Points[Single Player Only]]
Score Track	https://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=200611
Rules	Difficulty: LEVEL 4Credit: ONLevel: ONViolence: ON or OFFSpecial Rules: This is a Single Player ONLY Variation! You may freely select any available character and path after Mission 1. Continues are NOT allowed!
Submission Message	Captured via a Happauge HD PVR Rocket Hardware used: Omega CMVS,OSSC The Unibios cheat database was only shown to show examples of the database and the icon for the cheat enabled and disabled. Softdip settings: Continue is set off, Violence is on, everything else is in accordance to the ruleshttps://www.twingalaxies.com/images/...97a666b46a.jpg

Welcome NeoMage to Twin Galaxies and congratulations on your TG Wr. Expert game play.

The question is arcade platform. Whatever the Twin Galaxies members agree on.
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Attachment 152168

yeah i used the darksoft multimvs flash cart to play the game. The Darksoft menu rom that boots initially has aa feature to read game settings on the backup ram for soft dip settings via game configuration. I didn't know at the time of the recording i could use a button config to access the test menu thanks to the unibios. The Omega is set to free play but i disabled continues to make it a 1 credit run.

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Originally Posted by JJT_Defender

Information
Attachment 152168

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That was the uni bios in game menu that is accessed by pressing start and select or in the case of the mvs start and coin. This was to access features like the cheat database or debug settings. I showed off the cheat database only to show that i had none of the unibios cheats enabled. Even did a example of enabling one to disable it later before resuming for those that haven't used the unibios.

More information from Twin Galaxies members that have knowledge. I am all in voting yes just need info.

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Originally Posted by NeoMage

yeah i used the darksoft multimvs flash cart to play the game. The Darksoft menu rom that boots initially has aa feature to read game settings on the backup ram for soft dip settings via game configuration. I didn't know at the time of the recording i could use a button config to access the test menu thanks to the unibios. The Omega is set to free play but i disabled continues to make it a 1 credit run.

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Forgot if i didn't mention it. The Omega is just a consolized MV1C mvs board modded with the neobiosmasta vmc and a unibios 4.0 chip.

It's all arcade hardware

Interesting. I dont know if this should fly for arcade or not. The NeoGeo stuff itself is kind of an interesting case but adding this modern 3rd console complicates things even further. I'd def be interested to know what our more tech savy, neogeo familiar members have to say about this issue.

Very cool console.

Here it is if anyone wants to check it out:
https://www.arcadeworks.net/collecti...ucts/omega-mvs

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Originally Posted by Excelliron

Interesting. I dont know if this should fly for arcade or not. The NeoGeo stuff itself is kind of an interesting case but adding this modern 3rd console complicates things even further. I'd def be interested to know what our more tech savy, neogeo familiar members have to say about this issue.

Very cool console.

Here it is if anyone wants to check it out:
https://www.arcadeworks.net/collecti...ucts/omega-mvs

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it should. a consolized arcade board is still a arcade board. The only mod done for this board was the neo bios masta vmc along with the unibios.

1st of, absolutely great gameplay!

Though, for me, it's a very easy answer: This submission is not played on a genuine Neo Geo cartridge.
Therefore this score has no place in the Arcade Track for this game.

Sorry, but for me it's a reject

(Multi cards has no place in this category)

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Originally Posted by Muerto

1st of, absolutely great gameplay!

Though, for me, it's a very easy answer: This submission is not played on a genuine Neo Geo cartridge.
Therefore this score has no place in the Arcade Track for this game.

Sorry, but for me it's a reject

(Multi cards has no place in this category)

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I agree with this. I also own a single board Neo Geo arcade board. I do not own a multi-cart. All my games are the actual arcade cartridges that are needed to play as well. The gameplay should come from all the original hardware (including cartridges or tapes).

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Originally Posted by Muerto

1st of, absolutely great gameplay!

Though, for me, it's a very easy answer: This submission is not played on a genuine Neo Geo cartridge.
Therefore this score has no place in the Arcade Track for this game.

Sorry, but for me it's a reject

(Multi cards has no place in this category)

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Neither was original 1st place on this category. He used a NeoSD to run the game on a mvs cab.
To reject it on that whiile his got approved is suspicious.

The darksoft mullti-mvs is a flash cart not one of those 161 in 1 carts.

Dunno about the system-I do think NEO Geo is a bit of an anomaly, and I'm actually inclined to think the system is as valid for arcade scores as anything would be, but I do admit to not knowing enough about it to be firm in my opinion.

The cart itself tho, is almost surely fine, as it was a cart-based arcade system in the first place-the flashcart is no different than what we are allowed to use on consoles-I DO understand where owners of the arcade cabs could hope for exclusivity, but technology is technology, things are just more accessible than they used to be.

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Originally Posted by Rogerpoco

Dunno about the system-I do think NEO Geo is a bit of an anomaly, and I'm actually inclined to think the system is as valid for arcade scores as anything would be, but I do admit to not knowing enough about it to be firm in my opinion.

The cart itself tho, is almost surely fine, as it was a cart-based arcade system in the first place-the flashcart is no different than what we are allowed to use on consoles-I DO understand where owners of the arcade cabs could hope for exclusivity, but technology is technology, things are just more accessible than they used to be.

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The system is a mv1c that's been consolized. It's basically using the jamma edge connection for controls,a/v,and power. If it'll satisfy the curiousity i'll post a photo of the inside of the Omega

i dont know if the particular cart is an issue, but its surely not an auto reject as flash carts are typically allowed here unless theres a reason not to. Also this is pretty much like a super gun which has been used before. Originally arcade was expersnive and home version cheap, but now arcade is cheap and home expensive. So theres plenty interest in consolizing the arcade board and buying the cheaper arcade carts. i mean with neo geo nothing is common so rare as this is, its common within the realm of neo geo. its also worth noting neo geo boards are in case anyway, so even for an arcade you're not gonna see the board, you're just gonna see something that looks like a weird toaster

In my opinion the only score besides yours should also be disqualified too, as it's not done on original hardware.
So, that was a huge mistake it got approved...

One can own this game on cartridge, and it should have been done on such original cartridge/hardware.

In order to dispute a game, one should have at least 4.000 credits, and that I don't have yet..

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Originally Posted by Snowflake

i dont know if the particular cart is an issue, but its surely not an auto reject as flash carts are typically allowed here unless theres a reason not to. Also this is pretty much like a super gun which has been used before. Originally arcade was expersnive and home version cheap, but now arcade is cheap and home expensive. So theres plenty interest in consolizing the arcade board and buying the cheaper arcade carts. i mean with neo geo nothing is common so rare as this is, its common within the realm of neo geo. its also worth noting neo geo boards are in case anyway, so even for an arcade you're not gonna see the board, you're just gonna see something that looks like a weird toaster

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And the winner gets a prize. Sorry couldn't help myself but that's all the omega is.
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Originally Posted by Snowflake

i dont know if the particular cart is an issue, but its surely not an auto reject as flash carts are typically allowed here unless theres a reason not to. Also this is pretty much like a super gun which has been used before. Originally arcade was expersnive and home version cheap, but now arcade is cheap and home expensive. So theres plenty interest in consolizing the arcade board and buying the cheaper arcade carts. i mean with neo geo nothing is common so rare as this is, its common within the realm of neo geo. its also worth noting neo geo boards are in case anyway, so even for an arcade you're not gonna see the board, you're just gonna see something that looks like a weird toaster

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If the original hardware isen't used in Arcade tracks - what's the point having an arcade track?

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Originally Posted by Muerto

In my opinion the only score besides yours should also be disqualified too, as it's not done on original hardware.
So, that was a huge mistake it got approved...

One can own this game on cartridge, and it should have been done on such original cartridge/hardware.

In order to dispute a game, one should have at least 4.000 credits, and that I don't have yet..

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all a flash cart is just another piece of software. Sorry it's not "Pure ORIGINAL" but as someone on a fixed budget i can't go hunting down original carts. The main thing is that was this gameplay on original hardware i.e A MVS Board. Yes..was the original score on a MVS Board. Yes.

Sorry that technology advanced to the point where 1 person can put a game on a sd card and save space instead of having hundred of cartridges that take up space.

I've proven the game was played on authentic arcade hardware...Vote no or whatever cause i'm honestly done explaining this to someone who want's to come off as a know-it-all gatekeeper

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/HS0AA...yw7/s-l400.jpg

That should be the cartridge used in this category. (or the Japanese one)

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Originally Posted by NeoMage

all a flash cart is just another piece of software. Sorry it's not "Pure ORIGINAL" but as someone on a fixed budget i can't go hunting down original carts. The main thing is that was this gameplay on original hardware i.e A MVS Board. Yes..was the original score on a MVS Board. Yes.

Sorry that technology advanced to the point where 1 person can put a game on a sd card and save space instead of having hundred of cartridges that take up space.

I've proven the game was played on authentic arcade hardware...Vote no or whatever cause i'm honestly done explaining this to someone who want's to come off as a know-it-all gatekeeper

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Well - If you want to go there, you might as well approve Donkey Kong MAME scores on the Arcade track... Because technology advanced to the point where 1 person can put a game on a sd card and save space instead of having hundred of arcade games that take up space.

Thing is, you didn't use the original cartridge - end of story.
Bringing financial problems into this is bullshit and has nothing to do with anything,

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Originally Posted by Muerto

If the original hardware isen't used in Arcade tracks - what's the point having an arcade track?

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i i think you misunderstood me, i'm saying this is original hardare, i mean sure tis modified for output to a tc, my lengthier answer was to explain why the board so often gets taken out of the cab and used on play on the tv instead of the monitor. so there are modifications for the sake of taking it out of the cabinet and playing like a console

i guess i should also put the caveat i'm not a tech so fine for all i know, i can verify this particular one is a real board, but i want to eomphasize consolizing boards in this fashion is fairly common and so the consolization itself i dont have an issue with and I think people may be getting confused

tc=tv and when i said i can verify i meant cant verify boards on site,sorry about the typos

...so the only issue is the cart....the ROM CART that is only hardware due to pcbs that have the chips that make up the game soldered on it.


My dude...are cartridge isn't really hardware as you think...it's just software with a hard pcb and a hard plastic shell...sorry your ignorance of tech is making you feel some type of way. So would you kindly sit the **** down and shut the **** up....if you think it's not valid the vote no and go the **** away and pester another user...If this is the community that makes up this site then i feel sorry for everyone that dares to post scores.

Thanks to everyone that isn't being confrontational. I'm just so freaking done getting accused like i did what some bad apples of gaming history did and i won't name names for my own sake.

I think it's just the fact that to keep it in the spirit of competition, the hardware for the games (minus a cabinet and use of a supergun) should be original. I'm also a Neo Geo MVS owner who uses a supergun on his crt tv as well. A multi-cart sis fine for playing all the games for the system (even bootleg, conversion, and homebrew games) but in all honesty, it's just emulating the software on the hardware to play on the official board. I own at least 30 MVS carts and I do agree that it's a little expensive.

But none the less, it was impressive with your gameplay. Good luck with making more records.

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Originally Posted by NeoMage

...so the only issue is the cart....the ROM CART that is only hardware due to pcbs that have the chips that make up the game soldered on it.


My dude...are cartridge isn't really hardware as you think...it's just software with a hard pcb and a hard plastic shell...sorry your ignorance of tech is making you feel some type of way. So would you kindly sit the **** down and shut the **** up....if you think it's not valid the vote no and go the **** away and pester another user...If this is the community that makes up this site then i feel sorry for everyone that dares to post scores.

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lol.

My dude, this is Neo Geo hardware: (a single slot motherboard)
https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/p...escription.jpg

This is an original Neo Geo game, which holds the data for the game as you explained:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/HS0AA...yw7/s-l400.jpg

Did you use both of these in your submission?

No!
And, I'm not your dude (luckily) seems like a waste of time being your dude if you can't take criticism.
And - I wasent the douce who dropped the f-bomb, because you didn't like what you where reading, so - in your words: why don't you get the **** starting to FUCKING behave!

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Originally Posted by NeoMage

Thanks to everyone that isn't being confrontational. I'm just so freaking done getting accused like i did what some bad apples of gaming history did and i won't name names for my own sake.

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tmaybe i'm misreading you but you seem to feel you're being accused of cheating. People get scores rejected all the time for honest mistakes and gray areas where difference of opinions exist. ts only cheating if you falsify evidence. even if this gets rejected theres no penalty other than the submission points you used up arent refundable and you'll have to earn more for next submission.
we can be pretty blunt and downright offefnsive here but that sure does help accuracy, sometimes the rudeess or even polite rejects come off as accusations of cheating. we've all had scores rejected, heck i've had one guy accuse me of cheating for openly and transpraening not breaking any rules but wondering where the line on a grey area was, very clear admitting was i doing and asking permission. the majoriy rejected but still viewed my submission as a good faith.

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Originally Posted by Snowflake

tmaybe i'm misreading you but you seem to feel you're being accused of cheating. People get scores rejected all the time for honest mistakes and gray areas where difference of opinions exist. ts only cheating if you falsify evidence. even if this gets rejected theres no penalty other than the submission points you used up arent refundable and you'll have to earn more for next submission.we can be pretty blunt and downright offefnsive here but that sure does help accuracy, sometimes the rudeess or even polite rejects come off as accusations of cheating. we've all had scores rejected, heck i've had one guy accuse me of cheating for openly and transpraening not breaking any rules but wondering where the line on a grey area was, very clear admitting was i doing and asking permission. the majoriy rejected but still viewed my submission as a good faith.

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I'm just frustrated...I followed the rules and it feels like some are just saying i didn't all cause of a flash cart. The gameplay was on original hardware. I don't have the money to blow on one cart. This is something i did for fun and to challenge myself. Whether or not it's vaild on here i don't care. like i said if people think it's not then vote no. and i meant like what Billy mitchell did where he used mame and said it was original hardware. I don't want this to be compared to that.

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Originally Posted by NeoMage

Thanks to everyone that isn't being confrontational. I'm just so freaking done getting accused like i did what some bad apples of gaming history did and i won't name names for my own sake.

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If you re-read my first comment, I didn’t accuse you of cheating.

I only said you wasn’t using an original cartridge.

The answer would be to Create another PLATFORM for Omaga Entertainment Machine Neo- Geo multi MVS I JJT would gladly help create with same rules and whatever that is agreed upon to create this new track.

You would still have a Twin Galaxies world record and set more NEO GEO game records.


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Originally Posted by NeoMage

[Points[Single Player Only]]
Score Track	https://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=200611
Rules	Difficulty: LEVEL 4Credit: ONLevel: ONViolence: ON or OFFSpecial Rules: This is a Single Player ONLY Variation! You may freely select any available character and path after Mission 1. Continues are NOT allowed!
Submission Message	Captured via a Happauge HD PVR Rocket Hardware used: Omega CMVS,OSSC The Unibios cheat database was only shown to show examples of the database and the icon for the cheat enabled and disabled. Softdip settings: Continue is set off, Violence is on, everything else is in accordance to the ruleshttps://www.twingalaxies.com/images/...97a666b46a.jpg

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only admin can create new platforms and i'm not sure we should skip to that unless this gets rejected

The Omega system itself doesn't need its own platform. It's just a NEO GEO MVS board in a mod case. The question should be to make a platform for the multi-cart games. Since the multi-cart is technically an emulated hardware piece for the software, it should fall under emulation. But that would mean to make a separate platform for all the title for it as well.

Its been said this console uses the actual arcade hardware. My question is, where did this hardware come from? Did they break down a bunch of NeoGeo cabs to make these consoles? or did they make some kind of proprietary board thats supposed to act in the same way as the NeoGeo arcade harware?

Would REALLY hate for some of the opinions on this thread to be taken as facts-
Again, the cart is fine, same/same as putting the actual cart into your actual machine, I am not sure how that can be misunderstood?

1)Flash devices are allowed here-that's a fact.
2)Some people don't like them-that's also a fact.
But that still brings us back around to point number one.

This is a dead horse argument, at least the part about the cart.

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Originally Posted by Excelliron

Its been said this console uses the actual arcade hardware. My question is, where did this hardware come from? Did they break down a bunch of NeoGeo cabs to make these consoles? or did they make some kind of proprietary board thats supposed to act in the same way as the NeoGeo arcade harware?

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nope. My guess is they probably bought the board. Honestly mv1c boards are cheap.

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Originally Posted by NeoMage

nope. My guess is they probably bought the board. Honestly mv1c boards are cheap.

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Well obviously they bought the boards, but where can one buy hundreds of NeoGeo boards? If all the boards have come from NeoGeo machines then I'd imagine you'd have to buy them one or 2 at a time from private sellers for the most part. Maybe get lucky occasionally and find a seller with a handful of them but...
This company has presumably made hundreds, maybe thousands of these Omega consoles.
And theyre not the only ones making consoles out of the NeoGeo boards, looks like there lots of consolized MVS systems out there. Just seems kind of weird if they weren't not being newly made at some point.
None of this really has much to do with the validity of your submission, if at all. I was just wondering.
Something else I was curious about, what type of controller did you use? Joystick?

For the record I see no issue with the game cart as long as it acts in the same way other ROM storage/loading devices like flash carts and optical drive emulators do, ie using legit ROM's stored on an sd card or similar storage device.

This is an awesome console. If/when this goes through you should submit for some of the other NeoGeo games too.

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Originally Posted by Excelliron

Well obviously they bought the boards, but where can one buy hundreds of NeoGeo boards? If all the boards have come from NeoGeo machines then I'd imagine you'd have to buy them one or 2 at a time from private sellers for the most part. Maybe get lucky occasionally and find a seller with a handful of them but...
This company has presumably made hundreds, maybe thousands of these Omega consoles.
And theyre not the only ones making consoles out of the NeoGeo boards, looks like there lots of consolized MVS systems out there. Just seems kind of weird if they weren't not being newly made at some point.
None of this really has much to do with the validity of your submission, if at all. I was just wondering.
Something else I was curious about, what type of controller did you use? Joystick?

For the record I see no issue with the game cart as long as it acts in the same way other ROM storage/loading devices like flash carts and optical drive emulators do, ie using legit ROM's stored on an sd card or similar storage device.

This is an awesome console. If/when this goes through you should submit for some of the other NeoGeo games too.

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Thanks. I'll see about it. I'm gonna take some time to practice some of the games.

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Originally Posted by Excelliron

Well obviously they bought the boards, but where can one buy hundreds of NeoGeo boards? If all the boards have come from NeoGeo machines then I'd imagine you'd have to buy them one or 2 at a time from private sellers for the most part. Maybe get lucky occasionally and find a seller with a handful of them but...
This company has presumably made hundreds, maybe thousands of these Omega consoles.
And theyre not the only ones making consoles out of the NeoGeo boards, looks like there lots of consolized MVS systems out there. Just seems kind of weird if they weren't not being newly made at some point.
None of this really has much to do with the validity of your submission, if at all. I was just wondering.
Something else I was curious about, what type of controller did you use? Joystick?

For the record I see no issue with the game cart as long as it acts in the same way other ROM storage/loading devices like flash carts and optical drive emulators do, ie using legit ROM's stored on an sd card or similar storage device.

This is an awesome console. If/when this goes through you should submit for some of the other NeoGeo games too.

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I used the brook ps3/ps4 to neo geo super converter. Let's me use my dual shock 4 for the omega.
https://www.brookaccessory.com/detail/95441291/ <---- brook's page for this converter

I use the exact same convertor for my games as well since my Supergun uses that connection. I also bought a NEO GEO style controller that also has the DB15 connection type. I just finished upgrading the stick and buttons.

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Originally Posted by comboace

I use the exact same convertor for my games as well since my Supergun uses that connection. I also bought a NEO GEO style controller that also has the DB15 connection type. I just finished upgrading the stick and buttons.

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Nice. Man i wish i held onto the aes stick i owned back when i had the neo geo cd before an unfortunate modding screw up.

Would Twin Galaxies adjudicators accept a Donkey Kong arcade submission in which the gamer took the PCB out of its original cabinet, modified it so that it could be played with a SNES controller, and then hooked it up to his living room TV and performed it like that?
I doubt it.

Here's my concerns:

1) the use of a PS4 controller - This is being submitted to the arcade category. No one who plays this on an arcade has the option/ability of playing with something like a PS4 controller. That's an unfair advantage IMO over someone actually playing this on a Neo Geo cab. If this precedent were set it could greatly effect the arcade leaderboards. Imagine games where scoring high enough is only possible with the use of certain (non original, non arcade) controllers, thereby making it so the only way to compete is using a board modified to take console controllers.

2) the boards - Since this submission came up Ive tried to do some digging. There are thousands of these single slot Neo Geo boards being sold. There's 2 ebay sellers I noticed who have each sold 100 or more single slot Neo Geo boards, there are several companys' producing these consolized neo Geo one slot systems, I dont see how thats possible without them having been reproduced.

I get that Neo Geo is a bit different than most arcade systems in its ability to change out games so its entirely possible my suspicion of these being reproduced is unwarranted, but in the arcade collecting hobby getting 50 of the same arcade board is something thats pretty unheard of, let alone 500 or 5000 of them. I talked to one of the eBay sellers and he told me he gets them from a vendor. I assume this ebay seller is not the vendors only customer, so this vendor alone has likely sold thousands of single slot Neo Geo boards. Plus Arcadeworks and the other companies who make consolized Neo Geo one slot systems have presumably each sold hundreds or thousands of these boards. How is that possible, where could all these boards be coming from if theyre not being reproduced?

exceliron is making great points but i'd also hate to see this rejected. maybe we can feed two birds with one scone here. neo geo mvs should really have its own platofrm the way aes does for multiple reasons. If mvs got its own platform its alot more justified to make special rules for it than if its under arcade.

Your reply is not showing, it is invisible, unless you highlight it.

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Originally Posted by Snowflake

exceliron is making great points but i'd also hate to see this rejected. maybe we can feed two birds with one scone here. neo geo mvs should really have its own platofrm the way aes does for multiple reasons. If mvs got its own platform its alot more justified to make special rules for it than if its under arcade.

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1) the use of a PS4 controller - This is being submitted to the arcade category. No one who plays this on an arcade has the option/ability of playing with something like a PS4 controller. That's an unfair advantage IMO over someone actually playing this on a Neo Geo cab. If this precedent were set it could greatly effect the arcade leaderboards. Imagine games where scoring high enough is only possible with the use of certain (non original, non arcade) controllers, thereby making it so the only way to compete is using a board modified to take console controllers.

#1 I agree it would clearly be advantage then the solution would be for Twin Galaxies @admin staff create a platform for the track and rules, problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Excelliron

Would Twin Galaxies adjudicators accept a Donkey Kong arcade submission in which the gamer took the PCB out of its original cabinet, modified it so that it could be played with a SNES controller, and then hooked it up to his living room TV and performed it like that?
I doubt it.

Here's my concerns:



2) the boards - Since this submission came up Ive tried to do some digging. There are thousands of these single slot Neo Geo boards being sold. There's 2 ebay sellers I noticed who have each sold 100 or more single slot Neo Geo boards, there are several companys' producing these consolized neo Geo one slot systems, I dont see how thats possible without them having been reproduced.

I get that Neo Geo is a bit different than most arcade systems in its ability to change out games so its entirely possible my suspicion of these being reproduced is unwarranted, but in the arcade collecting hobby getting 50 of the same arcade board is something thats pretty unheard of, let alone 500 or 5000 of them. I talked to one of the eBay sellers and he told me he gets them from a vendor. I assume this ebay seller is not the vendors only customer, so this vendor alone has likely sold thousands of single slot Neo Geo boards. Plus Arcadeworks and the other companies who make consolized Neo Geo one slot systems have presumably each sold hundreds or thousands of these boards. How is that possible, where could all these boards be coming from if theyre not being reproduced?

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Originally Posted by Snowflake

exceliron is making great points but i'd also hate to see this rejected. maybe we can feed two birds with one scone here. neo geo mvs should really have its own platofrm the way aes does for multiple reasons. If mvs got its own platform its alot more justified to make special rules for it than if its under arcade.

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Honestly I can reason arguments both for and against the use of the PS4 controller.
And as for the boards, like I said, my suspicion may be completely unwarranted. IF thats the case there wouldnt be any reason for it not to be accepted. Im not necessarily against the submission being accepted, I just wanted to raise my concerns. It would help to know the number of Neo Geo single slot cabinets SNK produced but I havnt been able to find any info like that.


PS: I could see Snowflakes comment just fine, though Im always in Darkmode

PlayStation controller not the original clearly advantage.

Best solution is for @admin staff create a Platform for this track problem solved no more concerns or issues by Twin Galaxies members.

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Originally Posted by comboace

The Omega system itself doesn't need its own platform. It's just a NEO GEO MVS board in a mod case. The question should be to make a platform for the multi-cart games. Since the multi-cart is technically an emulated hardware piece for the software, it should fall under emulation. But that would mean to make a separate platform for all the title for it as well.

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Reviewing the rules as they stand:

https://www.twingalaxies.com/wiki_in...ll-Submissions

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Unless otherwise specified in the game's leaderboard variation rule set, the general rule is that all games are to be played with original hardware, with original game software.

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OK, so it falls foul of this one. Multiple people are citing the use of flash carts. Arcade games are _not_mentioned_ in the rules:

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Unless otherwise specified in the game's leaderboard variation rule set, console games must be run on official hardware. However, modifications needed to support the use of external storage devices such as the PlayStation 2 HDD, PS2 HD Loader, Everdrive or other mechanisms are considered generally acceptable unless otherwise prohibited by track specific rules, or the discovery and documentation of definitive unfair advantage of use for that game track during an adjudicative score verification process. This section does not apply to PC games, as they have no stock hardware.

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... so if the flash cart is not permitted for arcade, the submission potentially also fails.

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Unless otherwise specified in the game's leaderboard variation rule set, removing or altering any part of a game's software is forbidden. Examples include software mods, the crooked cartridge trick, or disk streaming. Editing config files and console commands for PC games beyond the scope of the in-game settings are only allowed for purely cosmetic changes that grant no gameplay advantages.

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So either TG needs to be petitioned for the rules to accept flash carts on Arcade or a new track needs to be created to permit the flash cart (thus voiding the global rules).

I have used Sega controllers on A800, Sega controllers on TI99 with a Wico adapter, and PS4 controller on MAME. None of that was ever called in to question. Those aren't the "intended or original" controllers for those systems. Not sure how that is too terribly different from this situation.

As for the PS4 controller, the Arcade platform is again _not_mentioned_ in the rules:

Quote:

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Unless otherwise specified in the game's leaderboard variation rule set, console players may use third-party controllers, but may not use features not present on controllers bundled with the system. For example, auto- or turbo-fire controllers are banned, except for the TurboGrafix-16 where stock controllers have it. Pressing up and down or left and right simultaneously on a dpad is not allowed as it requires hardware modification in order to do so. PC gamers may use any reasonable input device and remap keys, but may not use macros, scripts or programmable keyboards to automate button-presses.

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is it is it fair to say these are all issues
1. flash cart -- in my opinion not a real issue both from precedent on this track as well as repeated arguments over and over on this site where at arguemnt end flash always wins
2. controllers -- while this is a little more extreme than most cases, where do you draw the line? i dont think the controller argument wins either
3. modifications to actual board --ok thats fair, i can see that one both ways, we allow repairs, and most repairs arent just snapping something back in position most repairs invovle replacing a component so arguable a modificavion, i think we need to admit if we're gonna allow repairs then we need to be reasonable on mods. still i wont cry if this gets rejected for the mod i do think thats a reasonable concern
4. concern if the boards are original or repro -- we dont allow even perfect reproducictions that you get with fpga, so if proven repros, yeah, sorry its a reject, the only issue with this argument is i dont know how you prove it. so is burden of proof on submitter to prove its not a repro or is burden of proof on disputer? inc ases when we're unsure either way, what wins?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barthax

As for the PS4 controller, the Arcade platform is again _not_mentioned_ in the rules:

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donkey kong, by far the most overly pedantic arcade competitioin here allows buttons using microswitches instead of leaf, and for their advantage but everyone gets same advantage so its fine and not truly and advantage. some may remember the humorous buttongate where this was used as deflection to say if billy cheats everyone cheats as if its the same thing. but sill, yeah, while those dk buttons hardly jjusfiy competing on mame for arcade, i think it shows non original controls on arcade are fine.

@NeoMage I just want to highlight I believe the scoreboard should be accepting of all scores (including TAS & other stuff). However, the scoreboard runs on rules and so those rules need testing from time to time. Your achievement deserves to be on the scoreboard but not necessarily (because of rules) where it currently sits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snowflake

donkey kong, by far the most overly pedantic arcade competitioin here allows buttons using microswitches instead of leaf, and for their advantage but everyone gets same advantage so its fine and not truly and advantage. some may remember the humorous buttongate where this was used as deflection to say if billy cheats everyone cheats as if its the same thing. but sill, yeah, while those dk buttons hardly jjusfiy competing on mame for arcade, i think it shows non original controls on arcade are fine.

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Yeah, I think this is one of those cases that is strongly likely to get accepted then disputed - only to force TG to decide which way it needs to be. :(

On an unrelated note: whatever your preference for font is, it's white-on-white for me and horrendous to look at in the quotation: another TG fix needed. ;)

Attachment 152402

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barthax

Reviewing the rules as they stand:

https://www.twingalaxies.com/wiki_in...ll-Submissions



OK, so it falls foul of this one. Multiple people are citing the use of flash carts. Arcade games are _not_mentioned_ in the rules:



... so if the flash cart is not permitted for arcade, the submission potentially also fails.



So either TG needs to be petitioned for the rules to accept flash carts on Arcade or a new track needs to be created to permit the flash cart (thus voiding the global rules).

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The thing is, all these things that are exclusive to consoles (flash carts, use of other controllers) likely wouldn't apply to any other arcade systems besides the Neo Geo since its the only arcade system in which games can be switched like a console. And the NeoGeo single slot board is the only one of the two Neo Geo MVS boards thats being consolized, so its also likely the only one to see controllers used like this.

Besides, most arcade controls are tailor-made to the game, they ARE the best controls. In 99% of cases arcade controls will be the best controls because the game was designed around those controls.

If an exception is made it should be for Neo Geo MVS games only.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JJT_Defender

PlayStation controller not the original clearly advantage.

Best solution is for @admin staff create a Platform for this track problem solved no more concerns or issues by Twin Galaxies members.

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I do not see how using a PS4 controller having any advantage over a joystick style controller. If it's the standard PS4 controller, then there are no additional features on it. No auto-fire, No turbo settings. People use the keyboard all the time to play arcade games. It's just an input method to play games.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by comboace

People use the keyboard all the time to play arcade games. It's just an input method to play games.

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Can you give me some examples of that?
On MAME or Emulators yes, but not on actual arcade games.
Especially not when submitting an arcade performance to TG.

It could be argued a PS4 controller would give an advantage in endurance and tiring as ones hands and fingers are placed more naturally with fingers already resting on the buttons on a PS4 controller, while the Neo Geo arcade controls arent really like that, requiring more movement of ones hands. Whether an advantage is had or not would likely vary from game to game. Even a slight advantage in handling or anything else would make all the difference when it comes to competing on some games.

and just to be more clear about the last line on my reply to Barthax when I said "If an exception is made it should be for Neo Geo MVS games only"

meaning IF Twin Galaxies were to ever change the wording in the global rules about Flash carts and non original controllers being used, if an exception is made for this submission and others performed under the same circumstances then the exception should be for Neo Geo MVS games only, and not arcade games in general.

Again, its not likely this would ever be an issue with any other arcade systems as the MVS is the only arcade system which allows one to change out games in a similar manner to a console.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Excelliron

and just to be more clear about the last line on my reply to Barthax when I said "If an exception is made it should be for Neo Geo MVS games only"

meaning IF Twin Galaxies were to ever change the wording in the global rules about Flash carts and non original controllers being used, if an exception is made for this submission and others performed under the same circumstances then the exception should be for Neo Geo MVS games only, and not arcade games in general.

Again, its not likely this would ever be an issue with any other arcade systems as the MVS is the only arcade system which allows one to change out games in a similar manner to a console.

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There's a massive number of arcade machines which take carts, cassettes, CDs, etc. What's the logic behind being limited to NeoGeo?

Hello.
Taking advantage of the discussion.
I wonder if it is accepted with the equipment below.

Consolidated MVS Neo Geo with the MV1FZ board.
Unibios 4.0

Attachment 152406
Attachment 152407

Thanks
Fred

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barthax

There's a massive number of arcade machines which take carts, cassettes, CDs, etc. What's the logic behind being limited to NeoGeo?

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What arcade machines take carts besides NeoGeo?
I know of arcades that take Cd's and cassettes but none where you can simply put the CD/cassette in a different game and it works.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Excelliron

What arcade machines take carts besides NeoGeo?

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Sega's ST-V based systems:
Attachment 152414

The DECO cabs ran cassette tapes, like you mentioned, and I do think it was as simple as swapping out the cassette, tho I could certainly be wrong.
Obviously, marquees and stuff, but those wouldn't affect playability.
Is a system I'd actually like to know more about-due to the nature of the controls on different games, I'd assume there were different control panel configurations/types available, but again, I really don't know.

Right as I got into this whole mess, I saw a DECO cab for sale somewhere on the net, talked with the guy, had a multicassette system of some kind, I think he wanted less than a grand for it, but it was a good distance from me.
Have looked relatively recently, but couldn't find the old ad anywhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Excelliron

What arcade machines take carts besides NeoGeo?
I know of arcades that take Cd's and cassettes but none where you can simply put the CD/cassette in a different game and it works.

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Taito F3
IGS PGM
IGS PGM 2
Sega Mega-Tech, Sega Mega-Play and a bunch of other home consoles-made-into-an-arcade-cab
... and a bunch of others including the ST-V as above.

... but my point is if using a pirate methodology to play a game is good for one arcade system, it should be good for any (just like it is generally accepted for computers & consoles).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barthax

... but my point is if using a pirate methodology to play a game is good for one arcade system, it should be good for any (just like it is generally accepted for computers & consoles).

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You verbalized this much more effectively than I did, again me professing relative ignorance, that is almost certainly where my opinion was borne.

I hope the point is flash should be allowed for these other systems and not that their existence means flash can’t be allowed for neo geo

also do these others even heve a big enough Market that flash cards even exist for them ?

cause as much as I love every relevant detail no matter how small I’m not sure if this helps figure out the right decision or if it’s a tangent

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snowflake

cause as much as I love every relevant detail no matter how small I’m not sure if this helps figure out the right decision or if it’s a tangent

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I just want to make sure that any progress forward is not artificially hampered (looking for ways to avoid repeating this circumstance).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barthax

I just want to make sure that any progress forward is not artificially hampered (looking for ways to avoid repeating this circumstance).

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Personally, I don't see this circumstance as any different from an EEPROM replacement of a faulty chip on a main board... but people are fickle. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barthax

I just want to make sure that any progress forward is not artificially hampered (looking for ways to avoid repeating this circumstance).

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And I'll say, my seemingly definitive response about the validity of the cart might have been overstated-I tend to see things in black and white, knowing that's not always the case, and tho I do stand by my opinion, I'm not anyone's authority, and apologize for coming off that way...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barthax

Personally, I don't see this circumstance as any different from an EEPROM replacement of a faulty chip on a main board... but people are fickle. ;)

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I think if people knew how often EPROMs were replaced or rewritten with the particular versions peiple swap between there’d be a lot more arguments

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snowflake

I think if people knew how often EPROMs were replaced or rewritten with the particular versions peiple swap between there’d be a lot more arguments

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Don't know about this one, old EPROM's and other chips fail all the time, but for now you can find replacement chips.

Burning a new chip with the same code as the old faulty one, is a different story (in my opinion) and dosen't affect the program running on the original hardware.

But this is an Arcade track, where a NEO GEO - MULTI MVS was used, which is considered bootleg (as it's not the real Shocktroopers MVS cartridge) that's why I think it's not a valid Arcade performance.

It's a little hard to explain, as English is not my first language.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muerto

Don't know about this one, old EPROM's and other chips fail all the time, but for now you can find replacement chips.

Burning a new chip with the same code as the old faulty one, is a different story (in my opinion) and dosen't affect the program running on the original hardware.

But this is an Arcade track, where a NEO GEO - MULTI MVS was used, which is considered bootleg (as it's not the real Shocktroopers MVS cartridge) that's why I think it's not a valid Arcade performance.

It's a little hard to explain, as English is not my first language.

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You voice it well, so I don't think anything has been lost in translation. :D

The rules as they stand are with you, in my opinion: Arcade submissions are not excepted by the rules for "third-party" stuff and so "only" original components are permitted. However, you do point out that chip replacements are acceptable: which many other people consider "third-party". This is a third-party system which presents the same signals to the board as the original chip. Using a replacement cartridge which presents the same signals on the connection as the original is acceptable on "home" platforms and is allowed by the global rules: many adjudicators are well versed in seeing this.

The rules don't support this submission but multiple members of the adjudicators don't see the distinction between Arcade and Home (because it's just gaming machines). The rules can't be changed until TG staff acknowledge and consider if they need to be changed. TG will only consider that if this (or similar) submission is accepted and then disputed.

For those that wish to accept replacement cartridges and get the rules changed, this should be accepted and then disputed by those same people to get TG to change the rules.
For those that wish TG to re-affirmed that only original components should be used in Arcade machines, this would need to be accepted and then disputed by those same people.

It's all arse-backwards. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Unvoting, unsubbing.

I'm not going to read this entire thread. All I'm going to say is that I have a bunch of Neo Geo 1 slot boards and they don't look like that homemade thing you got there.

My original 1 slot CMVS looked suss as well ha. You can still verify the boards by their SNK labeling, but the main problem with a majority of CMVS submissions will be in relation to the added BIOS.

And since Shock Troopers was a MVS exclusive it shouldn't be accepted as a AES submission if done with a flash cart on the original home console.


If you could provide info to the community and TG ruling staff informing them about how the bios works and that you're still running the correct ROM on original hardware it might help future submissions. Not enough Neo records around so it's always good to see more pop up, esp great games.

I seem to recall that we've had the mvs multicart discussion before?

I believe @timmell posted an Aero Fighters 2 score for MVS, using a 161-in-1 cartridge, a while back, and the community came to the conclusion that the 161-in-1 had inaccurate emulation. It's been a while and I haven't looked up the discussion so I'm not 100%

I can see he has a score in the database right now with a NeoSD cartridge.

I hope @YesAffinity could chime in as I seem to recall that he used a DarkSoft CPS-2 board for a Street Fighter Alpha submission, and I recall arguments being made why DarkSoft was ok.

I don't recall the 161-in-1 discussion but agree they are dubious carts with known inaccuracies. Unless there is a clear list of the known issues and everyone agrees that listbisb100% accurate, I would be hesitant to accept a run on a 161-in-1 cart.

I believe it was @EVN that has submitted scores performed on darksoft CPS-2. I was against it initially, but have accepted runs performed on them, after further discussion/evaluation. Anything darksoft is acceptable in my mind. It's not emulation, his products are comparable to accepted console multi carts.

Okay, just sifted through the thread and understand what the full discussion is about.

Omega cmvs is a neo 1 slot with a nice shell around it and some i/o modifications. It's a mvs+supergun in short. Not an issue for me. There are accepted submissions played on various flavors of supergun, this is just another flavor. Where did all the mvs mobos come from? Who knows, but I have a 4 slot in my neo candy 25 and a stand alone 1 slot I bought years ago off ebay when arcade parts were still reasonably priced.

Darksoft Neo multi, also not an issue for me, on the surface. But, does the ds neo multi run arcade roms, or some form of modified rom? If arcade roms, then no problem. I downloaded the ds neo rom rollup pack and did a spot check of some of the shock trooper roms with romident. They came back identified as true game code. However, I dont know if the files in the pack are fully representative of the chips found on an original mvs cart. Would have to look at a scan of the cart, verify there is a file for each of the rom chips on the original cart, and verify all files can be validated in romident. If that all checks out, then it's original code running on original hardware at that point. The hardware handles the timings, etc, no deviation from an original cart.

The unibios, now that may be a point of contention. Is there any precedence of a mvs run played on a system running on unibios being accepted? Unibios is a work in progress from my understanding, with ongoing updates by razoola. A WIP means things needing to be fixed/not complete, with an unquantifiable effect on gameplay.

The ps4 controller, well a bit more of a deviation from arcade or arcade-like controls than I Iike to see, but unless theres a major feature deviation as the rules assert, then its ultimately just directional registers and button presses in a different package. I've made that same arguement when using an arcade stick vs. original controllers on my own various accepted submissions in the past.

Did a comparison of the game cart scan, MAME set files and DS Multi Rollup Pack Files (screenshot attached).

m1 and srom check out in romident. srom in the DS multi files = s1 in the MAME set.

From the looks of things, the following is true:
crom0 in the DS Multi files is all of the c* files combined into a single file
prom in the DS Multi files is p1 and p2 combined into a single file
vroma0 in the DS Multi files is v1 and v2 combined into a single file

I'll spend some more time on this IF we get past the unibios concern. It should just be a matter of splitting these combined files appropriately, then running them through romident to validate them. Again, if all data is there compared to the MAME set, then I think it's safe to accept the data being run on the DS multi as original arcade data being run on original arcade hardware.

But again, I don't want to spend more time on this if this submission is still going to fail due to unibios or any other concerns. Below is the description of Unibios, as posted by its creator Razoola:

Here you will find all the latest information on the UNIVERSE BIOS for NeoGeo MVS, AES and CD systems. Remember this is not an official SNK Bios, it is a homebrew project aimed at enhancing the experiance when playing on NeoGeo hardware.

This description can be found here: http://unibios.free.fr/

The fact that the bios is clearly stated as being a homebrew I think raises concerns for acceptability, but I'm open to others' interpretations. Truth be told, I run unibios on my Neo Candy 25/4-slot, and have never had any issues in that use case. I had to remove it from my 1-slot and revert to the original bios, however, as it resulted in Neo Turf Masters losing audio if run in attract mode for an extended period of time without starting a game.

Here's the image inline, for easier viewability.

And if that still doesn't work well, you can view or download at my google drive: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KV0...ew?usp=sharing

Attachment 152712

Man this place is stupid sometimes.

TG allows Everdrives right? This is just an Everdrive for the MVS. If you want to reject this because it's played on a Darksoft cart you may as well go and dispute the thousands of Everdrive records on the scoreboards.

I'm not gonna go dig them up but if you go looking there's already accepted scores on various games here that were played on a NeoSD which is the same thing made by a competing company.

Actually you know what, you don't need to even look far to find someone else playing on a flash cart. Here is the hardware used on the already accepted second place submission for this track!


Attachment 152713

Hilarious.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Excelliron

Well obviously they bought the boards, but where can one buy hundreds of NeoGeo boards?.

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A quick search on AliExpress for MV1C and you'll find many sellers like this:

Attachment 152714

Neo Geo motherboards like this are cheap and plentiful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EVN

Man this place is stupid sometimes.

TG allows Everdrives right? This is just an Everdrive for the MVS. If you want to reject this because it's played on a Darksoft cart you may as well go and dispute the thousands of Everdrive records on the scoreboards.

I'm not gonna go dig them up but if you go looking there's already accepted scores on various games here that were played on a NeoSD which is the same thing made by a competing company.

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In my mind, the code running on it is the question. I dont remember if and how the DS cps-2 conversation addressed the subject of decrypted cps-2 roms. I do remember that we all agreed that phoenix code would not be allowed.

The code/game files on console everdrives are assumed to be direct dumps of original carts. That might be an overreaching assumption for all cases, but it is the basis of acceptance for console everdrive submissions.

Are the rollup pack roms used for the neo SD as well? I'm not saying that's an automatic accept if they are, and I think the rom data, since it does not appear in the same format as the mame files (which are also direct dumps of the original code) and cannot simply be run through a validation tool like romident, needs to be validated before I'd be comfortable accepting the DS Neo Multi.

Scrutiny is not a bad thing in these cases.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YesAffinity

In my mind, the code running on it is the question. I dont remember if and how the DS cps-2 conversation addressed the subject of decrypted cps-2 roms. I do remember that we all agreed that phoenix code would not be allowed.

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It's just decrypted code. ROMs are prepared by decrypting them: https://github.com/aluzed/MiSTer-Neogeo-Rom-Decrypter

From my understanding A normal Neo Geo Cart has the ROMs in an encrypted at rest state and decrypts the data before it is presented to the Neo Geo motherboard. Flash carts and MiSTer just store the ROMs in a decrypted state.

The NeoSD I believe does the same thing but Terraonion provide their users with a different tool to load the ROMs on. Not 100% sure because they lock all their stuff behind DRM and you need to be a customer to get access to tools and firmware updates.

There are a couple of titles where they patch the code to get around additional copy protection, I believe it's like Fatal Fury 2 and Metal Slug X (don't quote me but its something like that) but even then apparently TG say it's ok to patch a game to bypass copy protection see: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post990329

If in doubt just go and ask on arcade-projects.com you'll get more accurate answers there.

This has nothing to do with the Darksoft cart, just showing that the NeoSD does something similar.

https://terraonion.com/app/uploads/n...pro-manual.pdf

Attachment 152719

based flashcart user

👍

1 in 161 no

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BotzaBrand

1 in 161 no

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Its not a 161 in 1, what are you talking about?

Voting yes, it's the same as an everdrive, which is a cart being played on original hardware.

I'm sorry, Steven. I have to vote No.

Bumping for votes and views.

It's been here a while I agree, but I don't need any unnecessary penalties, so I'm going to abstain.