Dispute: Patrick Stanley - Game Boy / Game Boy Color - Top Gear Pocket - Desert - Fastest Race - Player: Kyle Nelson - Score: 03:21.87

Game Boy / Game Boy Color - Top Gear Pocket - Desert - Fastest Race
Score Track	https://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=24049
Rules	• Time Attack. • You may use any available levelled-up car.
Player Name	Kyle Nelson
Original Adjudication	https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php?t=224391
Verification Method	TGSAP
Verification Date	2020-12-21
Disputed Score	03:21.87 (Rank 1)
Disputed By	Blackflag82
Dispute Evidence / Rationale	This run used passwords to access a car. Historically, passwords have not been allowed in submissions. Another set of submissions for a different game with similar circumstances (International Rally - also on gameboy) did not go through based on the use of passwords. There are differing interpretations of how these rulesets should be viewed. The main reason for opening this dispute is to draw it to the attention of TG in hopes that official clarification can be provided. It is also worth noting that the first submission seems to imply that the submitter did not think passwords were allowed as he wrote the following: "Here is the video of my attempt an inaugural record for the fastest time on the Desert course. The game and machine are at the beginning and the course starts around 26:35 and ends around 31:05. The time attack mode is very boring on this so skip to the start or end times if you can. A few recording notes on this title: The game powers on with 3 courses available and it does not save any progress. To get to the other courses I had to go through some championships to unlock them because passwords can't be used since they are not explicitly allowed in the rules. That's why the recording is so long. Please jump around and skip the long championship events that really have no bearing on the submission. Please ignore my ramblings and swearing as well." (https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/160781)

I believe this (and by extension the other 5 scores) are against the rules. Games that allow password explicitly state as such in the rules and the global rule is to not allow passwords. As such password should not of been used in these runs. Add to that that JMB specifically talked about the extra time and effort he had to put in knowing passwords were not allowed for his scores.

I'm going to link to those other threads discussing this stuff and save us all the "time" of saying and doing things more than once. If only there was a password to prevent that from happening? See what I did there, haha :P

This is the thread after those International Rally submissions were adjudicated.
https://www.twingalaxies.com/thegame...1#comment72200

This was the International Rally submission that had most of the discussion.
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...34-Kyle-Nelson

These two links pretty much sums up most of the debate between the people who have been involved for awhile :P Man, JMB still had so many more cars to unlock before he got the best one. Oof

There's a similar case of using passwords with fredb999's submissions for Wacky Races Starring Dastardly & Muttley on PAL PS2

Here's an example
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/222529

This is another game where passwords being used to unlock tracks and cars is allowed even though the rules don't state anything about it.

For all we know, they were used back in the day before Jace bought it also. That's pure speculation however. Using modded consoles/Everdrives was once not allowed and now they are. Using a password given to you by the game seems like a reasonable thing to allow if it's not allowing you to obtain something not received from normal gameplay. We will see

Quote:

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Originally Posted by starcrytas

This is another game where passwords being used to unlock tracks and cars is allowed even though the rules don't state anything about it.

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Just a general comment that just because someone else "got away with it" doesn't mean that it's within the rules and it should of passed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thegamer1185

For all we know, they were used back in the day before Jace bought it also. That's pure speculation however.

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What we know is the general rules don't allow in-game codes unless specified by the game rules. The game rules do not say codes can be used.
What we know is JMB submitted scores and clearly commented on how no codes were allowed due to general rules so he played it the way the rules are written.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thegamer1185

Using a password given to you by the game seems like a reasonable thing to allow if it's not allowing you to obtain something not received from normal gameplay. We will see

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Using a password is a reasonable thing...the question is not whether it's reasonable. You could create a track that allows for password use in any way you see fit and that would be reasonable.

What is unreasonable is if I went to your track and demanded that no passwords be used because of my opinion despite the rules and previous subs.

It's not reasonable to change rules of already submitted games/tracks when those rule changes are more than clarification - in this case, allowing passwords is not clarification, but would fundamentally change the way the game is played and submitted for these tracks.

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/224390

So this one submission right here says it all for me anyway. Interestingly enough, apparently I wasn't the first doing this, and one of my biggest debaters on the matters appear to have "Liked" my video and didn't object to it then. So what is happening here? @Pixe Sukola seems to know of those other runs also. Keep in mind I asked if I could use passwords before I submitted, I didn't even know it was already happening. Unless he was referring to my runs. Either way, I'll post a time line to help people find things to figure this out.

Here is my initial thread asking about using passwords for retrieving cars/tracks that you have already unlocked. Posted 12-17-2020

https://www.twingalaxies.com/thegame...-unlock-things

In this thread, everyone seemed to understand the reasoning behind it. Andrew didn't say one way or the other, he was doing his ref minded thing and explained how things where typically done. So I went ahead and posted my scores thinking people would be okay with it and they could see the subs for themselves. All 6 of the scores were submitted on 12-19-2020.

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/224391
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/224390
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/224392
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/224393
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/224395
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/224394

The second link is the submission that people talked about it. What I'm trying to understand is how several of the people against it now seemed to be okay with it then. It's as if people forgot it was even discussed. Now there are more submissions on the leaderboard that have used passwords and been accepted because it seemed to be okayed by the community. I am not sure if @Pixe Sukola remembers what games came before these that used passwords, but it would help.

I've already linked to the other threads in a post above. This topic seems to keep shifting subjects as well. We've got

1. Passwords aren't allowed at all unless the rules state otherwise

2. We have someone interpreting the "upgraded cars can be used" rule as a reason why passwords could be used because there are no
upgraded cars to begin with

3. I think the global rules were written in the earliest stages of TG and they never evolved over time with the evolution of games. Andrew even mentions how he, other refs, and Flewin were adjusting things to the current times to which I responded there were simply to many games to update rules on this situation was bound to happen and it is happening now (it's a good thing).

4. We have passwords or no passwords the person who submitted first thought the rules meant this so everyone should do it that way (paraphrasing that one).

5. Looking back at the threads and submissions above we have everyone saying it's okay and Andrew needing more info to make a definitive assessment.

6. @Pixe Sukola mentioning in the second submission thread that people have already been using passwords to unlock things.

7. There are submissions on the leaderboards now because these threads made it seem clear that using passwords for unlocking things without altering game play was acceptable.

Feel free to add to this. I'm not purposefully leaving anything out but damn that's a lot of back and forth and I don't want to put words into peoples mouths.