Dispute: Ryan Genno - Nintendo Game Cube - Namco Museum - NTSC - Pac-Attack [Hyper Mode - Points] - Player: Matthew Felix - Score: 1,208,858

Nintendo Game Cube - Namco Museum - NTSC - Pac-Attack [Hyper Mode - Points]
Score Track	https://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=25408
Rules	Pac-Attack, Hyper Difficulty Special Rules: Continues are NOT permitted!
Player Name	Matthew Felix
Original Adjudication	https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php?t=219970
Verification Method	TGSAP
Verification Date	2020-09-04
Disputed Score	1,208,858 (Rank 1)
Disputed By	starsoldier1
Dispute Evidence / Rationale	Sorry but I still have two big issues regrading with this submission being accepted here. One: the submission is a direct feed and the console and controller are never shown during the video at anytime. I'm OK with this on Matthew's Angry Bird submissions since they are on cellphones but here with consoles there are a ton of rules we need to follow and I seen several submissions get rejected like this recently for not having this proper evidence alone. Two: to load the game here it was from an unlicensed Wii Channel and not the real disc itself. The issue here it's possible to load different programs which could include official and unreleased games. Sadly my concerns are not being addressed at the moment because this new sub has the same problems: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...-Matthew-Felix Matthew is a great player but I'm just worried if this becomes the norm and we start accepting more subs without the whole evidence package.

Invalid dispute, Voting NO!

The 2 points you are raising have been discussed many times in the past

1. Direct capture.
This has been accepted for some consoles for many years. I have close to 1,000 accepted submissions using direct capture, if you believe this isn't acceptable you should start disputing all of those too.

2. Modded Wii.
This has been adressed many, many times and the top heads in TG have determined that this is an acceptable method of submission for this conbsole as long as it plays the same. The quote from Dave Hawksett has been shown to you by Matthew, myself and others.

The fact that Matthew combined two methods that you and some others don't like, doesn't make a valid argument for a dispute.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pixe Sukola

Invalid dispute, Voting NO!

The 2 points you are raising have been discussed many times in the past

1. Direct capture.
This has been accepted for some consoles for many years. I have close to 1,000 accepted submissions using direct capture, if you believe this isn't acceptable you should start disputing all of those too.

2. Modded Wii.
This has been adressed many, many times and the top heads in TG have determined that this is an acceptable method of submission for this conbsole as long as it plays the same. The quote from Dave Hawksett has been shown to you by Matthew, myself and others.

The fact that Matthew combined two methods that you and some others don't like, doesn't make a valid argument for a dispute.

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Not only the 2 reasons above, I personally asked Jace in one of videos directly about modded consoles loading games using software. At the time I don't think he was aware of how the hundreds of submissions that had been accepted using the method. He ultimately said they are allowed because they could always be disputed and removed. Showing a console and boot up is not a rule, I wish people would stop using it as a negative. I understand abstaining from voting, but using it as a negative against a non existent rule happens far to often on here. Voting NO

So even I'm not immune to having a score disputed.

Anyways, I don't want to start a fight, but you, Ryan, didn't make valid arguments to defend yourself.

1. Console and controller never shown
I've had 100's of direct capture scores accepted the same way this Pac-Attack score was done. You could see early in the videos the Wii booting up from the blue screen to the Wii Menu. That's how my capture card captures it. As for the controller, you don't even show it on most of your submissions, or at least from the ones I watch from start to finish even though you use a camera. Why do I have to show it if you don't?

2. Two: to load the game here it was from an unlicensed Wii Channel and not the real disc itself. The issue here it's possible to load different programs which could include official and unreleased games.
Everdrives have the same issue, they aren't licensed or officially made by Nintendo or Sega and they can load modded games, cheats, you name it! I'm sure there's a way to check that the Namco Museum ISO is not tampered with, but you can see the scoring works correctly, no cosmetic changes (colors are the same), and I don't have any play advantage.

Here is Dave Hawksett's quote about allowing jailbroken consoles.
"We have also had an internal discussion and will allow submissions on 'jailbroken' consoles in which the game play is identical to the original."
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...l=1#post955072

it would have been ok to reject the submission at submission time for these reasons since we dont just look at the rules but also if we believe the performance is valid based on whatever we think is needed to make such judgements.

however, to dispute, it would've had to break an actual rule. those issues you bring up, while fine points i'm sure many agree with, and could even become de facto rules, are not actual rules and so are not grounds for removal after acceptance

I honestly don't think these reasons are good to even reject a pending score.

If not showing the controller is an issue, lots and lots of Ryan's scores could be disputed as well because he doesn't always show it even tho' he is using a handheld camera. The records he submitted today are not showing the controller, so which one is it? Do we need to show it or not?

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...600-Ryan-Genno

I would think that uses a Wii with a gamecube ISO would be fine, as technically this is only emulating an actual disk. The hardware isnt being emulated, like using just a emulator on a computer etc.

Altho, technically speaking, even using a retail gamecube disc on a wii, the Wii is actually emulating a gamecube, so .. technically its still emulation, but emulation that device was designed to support. So it would still run the same on retail or ISO.

I see no difference personally from using an ISO, versus uses a rom on the everdrive. Both can technically be modified. If someone is going to go through the trouble of decompiling, editing, and recompiling a Game disk, that would easily be able to do the same with a rom.

But thats just my 2 cents.

Well, in this video for example I still show the controller at 2:39 here with my old OG Xbox system and disc at the start so I don't think we can dispute this one. I just feel we should give more a little evidence that's all and I'll happily vote yes on Matthew's future subs if we can see the boot up of the console first.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pixe Sukola

I honestly don't think these reasons are good to even reject a pending score.

If not showing the controller is an issue, lots and lots of Ryan's scores could be disputed as well because he doesn't always show it even tho' he is using a handheld camera. The records he submitted today are not showing the controller, so which one is it? Do we need to show it or not?

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...600-Ryan-Genno

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pixe Sukola

I honestly don't think these reasons are good to even reject a pending score.

If not showing the controller is an issue, lots and lots of Ryan's scores could be disputed as well because he doesn't always show it even tho' he is using a handheld camera. The records he submitted today are not showing the controller, so which one is it? Do we need to show it or not?

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...600-Ryan-Genno

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only reason i disagree with you, is that as long as someone sincerely believes a score should be rejected then they should vote their consicence. however, yes,my consience agrees with you

i'll reiterate again how stupid i think the push to show console is. anyone showing console could very easily have a different console hooked up, in fact thats what the first tg cheater did. he showed console but had a playback hooked up, not sure if he used a computer or what, but point is the console he showed was not truly connected to the tv. so unless you want people to show the wires connecting to the tv showing the console proves nothing. its not a requirement. but its a ridiculous pointless demand thats easy to give in on and people have the right to ask. i'm at the point where i roll my eyes, show the console, and just remind myself i prefer sincere (though silly) de facto requirements over a ref system

Quote:

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Originally Posted by starsoldier1

I'll happily vote yes on Matthew's future subs if we can see the boot up of the console first.

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But he did show it tho'. The boot up of the console (Wii) can be seen at 0:13 in the video.