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RTM
03-09-2019 at 12:23 AM
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Wall Entry at 03-09-2019 03:16 AM

I wonder, in light of FOX's recently announced decision, if it will suddenly be deemed politically incorrect to submit to TG records for "Michael Jackson's Moonwalker" ?

The comment from FOX officials that they are against book burning but since "The Simpsons" are their book then they have the right to "remove a chapter", that not only solves nothing but it is as bad as Lucas and Spielberg's multiple revisions to the classic "Star Wars" and "Raiders" franchises, and show as little backbone as Comedy Central showed when they banned three "South Park" episodes because of the M-word.


I'm not going to comment about what he did or did not do...but the PC bandwagon is just completely out of control as of late and I hope that TG does not jump on the bandwagon as well (same for MARP for that matter).

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  1. dedmunds's Avatar

    Yes it's interesting you mention it, I nearly bought the Moonwalker arcade board recently myself... If it were not for the cost I probably would have gone ahead and got it. I was planning on submitting with the board so i'd be curious on the direction regarding the game.

    Are there precedents on TG of games being banned in similar circumstances?

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  2. Conjured Entertainment's Avatar

    Don't be hating the players just because you hate the game!


    FAIR USE !!!!



    The whole thing is ridiculous. The ROMs everyone is in an uproar about have not been capitalized for decades.

    So why should they make a stink about the fans reliving their childhood fun, unless spoiling the fun is the primary objective?

    BOYCOTT the haters, because their profits matter more to them than you, or me, or their own mothers or children.

    So, the most effective way to fight back is to simply stop buying into their stuff.

    Tune out FOX and the ratings will take care of the rest. (did that after the false reports of baby Bush's election)

    I gave up on Star Wars when they sold out to Disney. (they went over to the dark side)


    It amazes me that censorship still exists in this country at all , when considering that it has been nearly 50 years since the Supreme Court ruled that Freedom of Speech DOES INCLUDE obscenities and vulgarity,

    When will these geniuses ever figure out that "Stick and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me!"


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    edit

    It amazes me at the lack of perception of the general public when watching a video. I didn't expect many people to fully understand the humor in this parody, but I was hoping that at least one person would have said "HEY! What was Donald doing at the border when Cheech and Chong drove the van through?" I guess nobody was stoned enough to notice him standing next to the nun's station wagon watching the whole thing. You didn't see him? Look closely at the guy in the reflection of the van's window. Before you say "he is too young" or "his comb over is not bad enough" please remind yourself of when this movie was made and look again closely. Now, before you go thinking that I edited that in there, go dig out your copy of "Up in Smoke" and ask yourself how I edited into your copy. Oh my friends, the conspiracies involving your mental conditioning and the manipulation of politics and the public's interest for corporate gain run deep. Too bad their censorship is not good enough to hide the truth from everyone.

    Just kidding. ;)

    But damn, none of you film fans there in Hollywood noticed that, for real?

    No wonder modern Hollywood movies are made with crappy dialogue that has no use other than to explain everything to the viewer.


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    Updated 03-11-2019 at 06:56 PM by Conjured Entertainment
  3. RTM's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by dedmunds
    Yes it's interesting you mention it, I nearly bought the Moonwalker arcade board recently myself... If it were not for the cost I probably would have gone ahead and got it. I was planning on submitting with the board so i'd be curious on the direction regarding the game. Are there precedents on TG of games being banned in similar circumstances?




    RTM REPLY - only one...and it was not an official game and was mostly banned because of the subject matter more so than the celebrity attachment.

    "Michael Jackson's Baby Drop" was banned from TG submission many, many years back.

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  4. Kelly Kerr's Avatar

    Maybe we can finally get a dvd or digital release of Captain Eo

  5. Conjured Entertainment's Avatar

    it was not an official game and was mostly banned because of the subject matter more so than the celebrity attachment.

    This is what drives me crazy about our society.

    It is acceptable for the celebrity to deliberately endanger a real baby's life in a real world situation, but heaven forbid someone making fun of that celebrity in a fantasy world setting like a video game.


    Updated 03-09-2019 at 01:21 PM by Conjured Entertainment
  6. RTM's Avatar

    TG decided that the content (catching dropped babies) was not in conjunction with our image...the fact that Michael Jackson was attached to the title was not the reason it was banned, actually. I remember...I was part of that particular ban discussion.

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  7. dedmunds's Avatar

    Yeah I recall a couple of PC games which were a bit out there in the late 90s also, which is what got me to thinking about which games had been banned from TG submission in a wider sense. A list of banned games on TG wiki would be pretty interesting - unless one already exists?

  8. EVN's Avatar

    What!?


    Are you guys saying I shouldn't make a track and submit for the "Zenkoku Seifuku Bishojo Grand-Prix : Find Love" cart that came with my ST-V motherboard?


    This is an outrage!

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  9. RTM's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by dedmunds
    Yeah I recall a couple of PC games which were a bit out there in the late 90s also, which is what got me to thinking about which games had been banned from TG submission in a wider sense. A list of banned games on TG wiki would be pretty interesting - unless one already exists?




    RTM REPLY - there is, actually..I started it and Kelly Flewin continued adding to it. You would have to search the forum archives

  10. Conjured Entertainment's Avatar

    Just my opinion, but a ban of any game title here at TG is far worse than any content of the banned games could ever be.

    That shows a bias on the part of TG, whereas the inclusion of any and every game title reflects fairness to all games and their developers.

    The content of a game title included here is not a reflection of TG, since they did not develop the game.

    The inclusion of the game here is not by any means the condoning or agreeing with the subject matter, but rather an acknowledgement that there are various tastes for the various members here that participate in the community.

    To suggest that we should all adhere to the same beliefs, whether moral, political, religious, or comic, implies that TG is a closed community serving only those people they approve of, or select as worthy, rather than serving the whole world.

    How can TG be considered to be evaluating fair competition if we become selective in who can participate?

    Yes, banning individuals for disruptive behavior like attacking the server is acceptable, but banning people, or their contributions, simply because we don't agree with them, or our beliefs are different from theirs, is not in any way a reflection of fairness or an equal playing field.

    In fact, creating a list of banned games makes us no better than those who burn books.

    Censorship is censorship, and it is discriminatory, regardless of vain attempts to justify it.

    Just my two cents. (since I was not there for the original discussion)

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    Updated 03-10-2019 at 06:51 AM by Conjured Entertainment
  11. sdwyer138's Avatar

    Yeah just think how many sports games would have to be banned if we are basing it on the real life behavior of the person portrayed in the game....

    Then what... do we need to look at the personal lives of the game developers, artists, composers, etc?

    That's dumb

  12. RTM's Avatar

    The "ban" list was not an attempt at censorship but rather TG establishing a boundary to set itself apart from all other "repository" sites of that era. It was a statement, yes, not unlike how major league spots teams do not accept advertising costs from certain advertisers.

    I went into this argument many a time and in all honesty the people who argued against the ban were less interested in WHICH titles were banned but rather than ANY titles were banned. Basically a bandwagon was jumped on without understanding what the specifics of the decision were.

    I'll cite some titles once more...real titles available on social media or for direct purchase...which TG had on the "banned" list, or any others with similar content...

    -> After 9/11 there were airplane simulations where you tried to see how quickly and efficiently you could pilot jumbo jets into certain buildings or other objects...if you can't see why TG would not want to accept submissions on such a tasteless title then you're like a juror who before the trial even started decided their on their verdict before hearing the evidence

    -> A number of "extermination" titles existed where the goal was to exterminate people of a certain skin colour or religion...anyone who would actually WANT to submit a "score" on such a title to TG deserves to have their account submitted, and anyone fighting for their "right" to do so, well, keep up the fight but you're on the wrong side

    If you want an organization that accepts any title, the solution is simple...register a website, create a scorreboard and database, hire some programmers, and be proud when the first such submission comes in. Good luck finding people to adjudicate it though, but if you do, I would not be proud of having them as part of the registered list

  13. RTM's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by sdwyer138
    Yeah just think how many sports games would have to be banned if we are basing it on the real life behavior of the person portrayed in the game....Then what... do we need to look at the personal lives of the game developers, artists, composers, etc? That's dumb




    RTM REPLY - again, the "baby drop" title was banned at the time for the content of catching dropped babies and not because it was "Michael Jackson" dropping them.

    I agree...banning sports games because of specific player behaviour, or a title because a lead designer was at some point caught for drug possession, etc...dumb, never mind nearly impossible to monitor. The "Call of Duty" team I am sure had several hundred people working on it...you would need an entire unit of real-life police detectives to monitor the team who worked on that title alone, never mind the thousands of other titles and millions of other team members there. Just dumb.

    It is the content that was at the heart of the bane...nothing more.

  14. Conjured Entertainment's Avatar

    That is the whole point Robert.

    The community itself (meaning individual members) could refuse to participate in such submissions, rather than having that decided for them.

    How is a plane (in a video game) crashing into a building to cause destruction any more or less controversial than a giant gorilla smashing buildings and eating people alive???

    Trying to tie 9-11 in as a reason to ban a game is a clear inability to distinguish fantasy from reality.

    Just because you play a game like that does not mean you will crash a plane in real life.

    Were the real life pilots of those planes gamers? (lol I'll bet they were not)

    So, a separation of reality and fantasy has to be made when we consider video games, or else we may as well join those parent groups that want to ban all video games.

    I am not trying to personally attack you or anyone else who contributed to such a ban list, just trying to show how such a ban list thrusts the personal beliefs of the admins onto the community rather than accepting the fact that there are people in the world who have different beliefs but that does not mean that they should be treated indifferently.

    We are talking about video gamers, not terrorists.

    Why not let the community members decide, through their participation, which games/submissions are something that they want to be a part of?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Had I designed that Baby Drop game, I would have had only one baby.

    There would have been a fireman's blanket type of trampoline, where the baby would have bounced back up for Mikey to catch again, and then re-drop.

    One miss, and game over.

    MJ would be doing a moonwalk victory dance on the balcony as the firefighters would wash the blood and brains off that had splashed on the screen.

    Then, of course, they would direct the hoses at MJ and hose him off the balcony, with the crowd attacking him as he yells with his famous woohs.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Transparent censorship? That sounds interesting,

    While we are at it,

    Please add Donkey Kong to the ban list, considering how the gorilla abducted the princess.

    We don't want TG to be condoning kidnapping, do we?

    Starting to get the point here?

    Where would this censorship end with our mixing of fantasy and reality?

    Updated 03-10-2019 at 07:43 AM by Conjured Entertainment
  15. RTM's Avatar

    You are missing the point here...

    TG itself was taking the forefront by setting the standards. You are assuming that the general gaming community can do so but that is not possible. The current community cannot agree on what is leeching, what is a marathon and more. Expecting it to agree on an image standard is just not in the cards.

    It was not a matter of "equating" the game that I cited to 9/11,,,it was released within a month after 9/11 and the intent was to mimic 9/11, This was not a grey area to be decided by gamers...it was a decision that TG itself made.

    Again, your stance is community-based rather than allowing the company to establish its own standards. You are welcome to that stance, but TG's stance was that it would lead the way and not the gamers. The reverse had proven to be impossible and it lead to far too many unresolved arguments and discussions.

  16. RTM's Avatar

    As for the ridiculous notion that DK promotes kidnapping is an apples-to-oranges analogy and in no way commensurate to truly problematic titles. Otherwise not a single TG title save for generic "Breakout" and the like would be tracked.

  17. Conjured Entertainment's Avatar

    That is because the things they disagree on are subjective.

    That is my point, they will never be in agreement on such things unless you do expect them all to have the same beliefs.

    So what the game was made a month after,

    Why not go after the people who orchestrated the real life attack instead of going after the fantasy world gamers who made the game as a reaction to their action.

    Why not get angry about our government burning children alive in a church in the 1990's rather than worrying about whether someone will make a game called Waco??

    Why should we as a society accept the real life behavior, yet condemn the fantasy world efforts to provide comic relief and lighten the intense negative emotions that were caused by such events that were beyond our control?

    A wise man once said... "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

    While we cannot change these traumatic real life events after they have happened, we can try to block out those memories completely to remove the pain, but that may not be the best way to deal with it,

    While these questionable game titles may cause those negative emotions to stir again, they act as a reminder so we will never forget and somehow slip into that cycle of repetition.

    Yes, my stance is community based, because I was under the impression that TG exists for its community, with its primary objective to serve that entire community with no bias and full transparency.

    Am I wrong to think that the community should be considered when making their corporate decisions, or was I wrong about the no bias or transparency stance of TG?


    Updated 03-10-2019 at 08:19 AM by Conjured Entertainment
  18. Conjured Entertainment's Avatar

    As for ridiculous, that is what I was trying to stress, how ridiculous this censorship is for video games.

    Again, who decides, and where does it end?

    Should the community have the choice or have it made for them?

    If the community is deemed as being unable to decide things for themselves, then what the hell are we doing here participating in the TGSAP?


    As far as my missing the point..

    Frankly, I think it is you who is missing the point, considering the irony of your condemnation of Fox, Lucas, Spielberg, Comedy Central, while condoning such censorship as a video game ban list here at TG.

    Updated 03-10-2019 at 08:00 AM by Conjured Entertainment
  19. sdwyer138's Avatar

    If someone wants to launch a track for baby drop, i'll fund it

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  20. RTM's Avatar

    Disagree again. Twin Galaxies is both a business and a service provider. As such it has the right to establish its own standards whether behavior on the forums to submission standards to what it does and does not "track".

    I am unsure if you were part of the pre-Bouvier era of TG, but things changed substantially afterwards. Up to that point an effort was made to establish certain standards. It was far from perfect, but a substantial effort was indeed made.

    The point comes down to this...(A) does a business have the right to establish its own standards, and (B) does a business have a right to impose its own personal judgment on what type of business it is willing to conduct.

    The answer to both is yes.

    The current "business model" of TG allows the inmates to run the asylum, something I told Jace years back. Such does not work in the long run. There is no cohesive mindset, no centralized rules and guidelines, and no forum moderation.

    Old TG was much different. You may not like the old business model, but it stood unified for the most part, at least pre-Bouvier. And it was within its rights to conduct business as it saw fit.


    We're all customers of TG, but it is TG that must establish and set the tone for its business...not the gamers. And if TG had, at one point, created such a "banned list", that was within its right as a business to do so, and if gamers feel otherwise, then again, create a different organization, invest the resources to run it, and track whatever you wish to.

    ADDENDUM - this is what I get for reading the TG forum during my lunch hour at work...I forgot that my intent was that my previous reply would be my final post, so alas I erred and this one therefore is my last post. I've said my peace.

    Updated 03-11-2019 at 01:31 PM by RTM (One Final Thought)
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