How is grouping ghost monsters done on Ms.Pacman/Pacman?

  1. How is grouping ghost monsters done on Ms.Pacman/Pacman?

    08-29-2003, 09:31 AM
    1a.How is grouping ghost monsters done on Ms.Pacman/Pacman?

    1b.Are their different techniques grouping?

    1c.Is timing of the ghost change of directions a factor?

    1d.What are the timing intervals in seconds ?

    2.What ghost monsters do you group first Pinky-Red-liteBlue-Orange?

    3.What are their names & characteristics?

    JJT 8)
    JJTJohnnyLightning World #1 Racer on Arcade Game Fast & Furious Super Cars 1,872 Match Wins 52Cities
  2. Re: How is grouping ghost monsters done on Ms.Pacman/Pacman?

    08-29-2003, 10:42 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jjt_defender
    1a.How is grouping ghost monsters done on Ms.Pacman/Pacman?
    ...in short by learning how the monsters move around the board in relation to your position and how you are moving...or sitting and facing a certain direction. Understanding this leads to techniques and ways of moving around the board to group the main 3 first...the blue, red and link monsters...then understanding how the brown monster moves around the board to correctly lead them to an energizer where you get all 4.

    It's hard to put into words. Various screenshots or gameplay movies would be needed to really show it. if you have a mac you are welcome to watch my inp I have at MARP. If you have a PC Neil Chapman has a couple inps at MARP as well that would give you a good idea of how we do it.
    1b.Are their different techniques grouping?
    I'm guessing without even seeing each other's play the techniques used are very similar. There might be certain moves someone else does that I don't use and visa-versa...but likely most are moves we both know and use.
    1c.Is timing of the ghost change of directions a factor?
    Well, it's only a factor for how precise the grouping of them has to be and timing and spacing of the brown monster to correctly have them meet at an energizer where you can get all 4. If we wanted even on the 1st blue jr board for example we can go to the trouble of grouping them as tightly as we do for the 3rd and 4th blue jr boards...but it's not necessary given the 1st blue jr has long blue time.
    1d.What are the timing intervals in seconds ?
    If you are referring to blue time on each board here...this has been discussed previously. Namely, you can get all the basic info on mspac HERE . It gives some basic strategies as well as values of points for each board, blue times, etc.
    2.What ghost monsters do you group first Pinky-Red-liteBlue-Orange?
    yep...these 3 first....cuz the brown dude generally moves in a totally different manner..but still related to what you are doing.
    3.What are their names & characteristics?
    Their names don't matter. hehe I always referred to them by color. :P
    Their names can actually vary from 1 clone to the next...while their behavior and characteristics remain the same by color.

    That URL I gave above gets into discussing the characteristics of each monster more than I would rather comment on here. Overall, the red monster tracks you most directly....with a few exceptions like the red monster on the chase boards will follow you through the side door but if you move down after going through the side door none of the monsters including the red one will follow you down from that side door directly...so it's always an easy escape...cuz then if needed you can go back up and through the side door again.

    Other than that the red dude will chase you just about everywhere. There are many sit spots though where the red monster will stay and go on the other side of the wall though versus where you are sitting. Leaning where and when comes from lots of playing.

    The blue dude is easiest. He/she generally moves whatever direction you are moving or facing. If you are moving up the blue monster will move up. However, the blue monster is a tad odd when the spacing versus where the red monster is gets to a certain gap....where the blue will get you if you aren't careful. It's hard to explain in words...screenshots or movies would show it a lot more.

    The pink monster is sort of a hybrid of the red and blue. The pink tends to chase you a bit more but also generally will move the same direction you are moving when possible...but not to the extent the blue monster does.

    That article at the URL given above likely states all of this a lot clearer than I am trying to do here even in general terms.

    In short, all 4 monsters move and decide which way to go at each intersection based on where you are and what direction you are moving or facing.

    The red monster as you likely already know also starts to move at a faster speed toward the end of the boards when there aren't many dots left. This becomes quite pronounced on later boards...especially the slow boards.

    The characteristics of these monsters in pac-man, mspac and even jrpac is very similar...although the blue monster in jrpac often seems like another brown monster but red and pink seem exactly the same in jrpac versus the other pacman games.

    Even in superpac they are similar...except for whatever reason the characteristics of the brown and blue monsters were switched.

    There are other chips...like the pacmod rom set...which is called Pacman(harder?) where the behavior of the monsters has been slightly altered. For these other variants all you can do is play it over and over taking what you know from regular pacman then modifying or noting what's different with the modified one. Namely I tried the same moves....some worked..some sort of worked...some didn't work at all anymore...so you adjust and figure out a new reportoire of moves for that variant.
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  3. 05-04-2020, 11:37 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by JJT_Defender View Post
    1a.How is grouping ghost monsters done on Ms.Pacman/Pacman?

    1b.Are their different techniques grouping?

    1c.Is timing of the ghost change of directions a factor?

    1d.What are the timing intervals in seconds ?

    2.What ghost monsters do you group first Pinky-Red-liteBlue-Orange?

    3.What are their names & characteristics?

    JJT 8)
    @JJT_Defender Never too late to get better answers to your questions sent in 2003!'
    @jpittman - Reference your tutorial below.

    1a.How is grouping ghost monsters done on Ms.Pacman/Pacman?

    francoisadt:
    Grouping are done differently on Pac-man than on Ms. Pac-Man.
    Some generic principles are the same in both games according Jamey Pittman's document Pac-Man Dossier
    and video by him.

    Generic Principles are:
    Seek positions (to move to positions) of each ghost characteristic determine the next four possible position targets for the four ghosts relative to the position and direction of Pac-Man/Ms.Pac-Man.

    Grouping on Pac-Man
    ===================

    Grouping options are limited on Pac-Man due to the board layout and the manner the exits are positioned.
    Grouping on Pac-man are very mono-set, see usage of grouping by Jon Stoodley/Greg below.
    Grouping on Pac-Man are deterministic due to the ghost AI (intelligence) are deterministic. Next positions of ghosts are
    predetermined whereas in Ms. Pac-Man & Jr. Pac-Man games the ghosts AI is nondeterministic and more dynamic.

    See my previous wall entries a few years ago on my TG Wall at "More Resources" at end of this post.


    "Pac-Man Grouping New:



    Jon Stoodley:

    Perfect 'freehand' Pac Man - Arcade - Play Margate 2015 - 1/5


    At 12;25 (wait for reversals to stop)
    At 13:14 (top left quadrant waitt point)

    Do the following WHEN RED ahead of the pack to switch RED to the back of the pack:
    When the front ghost reach inner path entry towards
    TOPLEFT quadrant as on 13:15 (red ghost at point of moving UP.
    Then move Pac-Man to the right side to the right-side-reverse-L" as on 13:17

    When PINK or GREEN are in front of RED:
    Goto the wait point as on 13:23
    Wait for front ghost to just reached to pass Pac-Man (reaching the first dot going upwards), then move to the right.
    Hold in INNER-L at 13:25 for a few milliseconds to force the pevious front ghost that did moe upwards pass you to go down the other passage.

    So with Pac-Man grouping are very easy compared to Ms. Pac-man or Jr Pac-man because you only need to learn ONE base method to be able to group all the ghosts if you are patient enough.

    Jamey PittMan showcase a fantastic advanced positioning grouping techniques but are not needed if you want group ghost to be "close enough" to be eaten but not necessarily 100% on top of each other.

    Pac-Man Grouping Tutorial by Jamey PittMan:




    Grouping on Ms. Pac-Man

    ======================
    Grouping on Ms. Pac-Man are more difficult due to more corners, travel paths the ghosts and four exits which can trap Pac-Man early.

    Ms. Pac-Man Grouping Tutorial Boards 1 and 2 by David Manning:

    Ms. Pac-Man Tutorial 1: Ghost Behavior



    Ms. Pac-Man Tutorial 2: Intro to Grouping



    Ms. Pac-Man Grouping Tutorial Boards 3,4,5 by Francois du Toit:


    Ms. Pac-Man They Meet Board 3 - Orange (How to group)


    Ms. Pac-Man Safe Grouping method for Acts - They Meet


    Ms. Pac-Man "Acts - They Meet" Safe grouping method - without using tunnels



    1b.Are their different techniques grouping?
    francoisadt: Yes, see the tutorials above.

    1c.Is timing of the ghost change of directions a factor?
    francoisadt: Yes, direction is key. So the key factors are:
    (a) SPEED: speed of ghosts vs speed of Pac-Man
    (b) DISTANCE:
    - Distance of ghosts from current position of current moving Pac-Man
    - Distance of ghosts from new position of current moving Pac-Man
    (c) TIMING:
    - time of ghost take corners vs time Pac-man take corners
    - time of ghost change direction and reposition vs time Pac-man can change direction and reposition

    This then point a key factor the gamer need to have:
    - Very good reflexes to act and re-act
    - Very fast thinking

    1d.What are the timing intervals in seconds ?
    francoisadt: one sixieth of second. So your brain think faster than the computer but your eyes do not.

    2.What ghost monsters do you group first Pinky-Red-liteBlue-Orange?
    francoisadt:
    Good question. One key aspect is to group any ghost with RED as soon as possible to eliminate the possibility to be trappedby four ghosts moving vs three ghosts vs two ghosts vs one ghost (all are groued as ONE)

    I recommend group RED then PINK first because they are the ones target Pac-man directly.


    3.What are their names & characteristics?
    See Jamey PittMan's document
    https://www.gamasutra.com/view/featu...an_dossier.php


    More resources:

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/francoi...-step-overview

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/francoi...2-2016-1109-pm
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/francoi...-deterministic

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/francoi...n-and-mspacman

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/francoi...-345-they-meet
    streaming mspacman normal and turbo speed at:

    Francois du Toit
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  4. 05-04-2020, 01:59 PM
    Thank you , I appreciate the information on both Pac Man and Ms Pac-Man
    Quote Originally Posted by francoisadt View Post
    @JJT_Defender Never too late to get better answers to your questions sent in 2003!'
    @jpittman - Reference your tutorial below.

    1a.How is grouping ghost monsters done on Ms.Pacman/Pacman?

    francoisadt:
    Grouping are done differently on Pac-man than on Ms. Pac-Man.
    Some generic principles are the same in both games according Jamey Pittman's document Pac-Man Dossier
    and video by him.

    Generic Principles are:
    Seek positions (to move to positions) of each ghost characteristic determine the next four possible position targets for the four ghosts relative to the position and direction of Pac-Man/Ms.Pac-Man.

    Grouping on Pac-Man
    ===================

    Grouping options are limited on Pac-Man due to the board layout and the manner the exits are positioned.
    Grouping on Pac-man are very mono-set, see usage of grouping by Jon Stoodley/Greg below.
    Grouping on Pac-Man are deterministic due to the ghost AI (intelligence) are deterministic. Next positions of ghosts are
    predetermined whereas in Ms. Pac-Man & Jr. Pac-Man games the ghosts AI is nondeterministic and more dynamic.

    See my previous wall entries a few years ago on my TG Wall at "More Resources" at end of this post.


    "Pac-Man Grouping New:



    Jon Stoodley:

    Perfect 'freehand' Pac Man - Arcade - Play Margate 2015 - 1/5


    At 12;25 (wait for reversals to stop)
    At 13:14 (top left quadrant waitt point)

    Do the following WHEN RED ahead of the pack to switch RED to the back of the pack:
    When the front ghost reach inner path entry towards
    TOPLEFT quadrant as on 13:15 (red ghost at point of moving UP.
    Then move Pac-Man to the right side to the right-side-reverse-L" as on 13:17

    When PINK or GREEN are in front of RED:
    Goto the wait point as on 13:23
    Wait for front ghost to just reached to pass Pac-Man (reaching the first dot going upwards), then move to the right.
    Hold in INNER-L at 13:25 for a few milliseconds to force the pevious front ghost that did moe upwards pass you to go down the other passage.

    So with Pac-Man grouping are very easy compared to Ms. Pac-man or Jr Pac-man because you only need to learn ONE base method to be able to group all the ghosts if you are patient enough.

    Jamey PittMan showcase a fantastic advanced positioning grouping techniques but are not needed if you want group ghost to be "close enough" to be eaten but not necessarily 100% on top of each other.

    Pac-Man Grouping Tutorial by Jamey PittMan:




    Grouping on Ms. Pac-Man

    ======================
    Grouping on Ms. Pac-Man are more difficult due to more corners, travel paths the ghosts and four exits which can trap Pac-Man early.

    Ms. Pac-Man Grouping Tutorial Boards 1 and 2 by David Manning:

    Ms. Pac-Man Tutorial 1: Ghost Behavior



    Ms. Pac-Man Tutorial 2: Intro to Grouping



    Ms. Pac-Man Grouping Tutorial Boards 3,4,5 by Francois du Toit:


    Ms. Pac-Man They Meet Board 3 - Orange (How to group)


    Ms. Pac-Man Safe Grouping method for Acts - They Meet


    Ms. Pac-Man "Acts - They Meet" Safe grouping method - without using tunnels



    1b.Are their different techniques grouping?
    francoisadt: Yes, see the tutorials above.

    1c.Is timing of the ghost change of directions a factor?
    francoisadt: Yes, direction is key. So the key factors are:
    (a) SPEED: speed of ghosts vs speed of Pac-Man
    (b) DISTANCE:
    - Distance of ghosts from current position of current moving Pac-Man
    - Distance of ghosts from new position of current moving Pac-Man
    (c) TIMING:
    - time of ghost take corners vs time Pac-man take corners
    - time of ghost change direction and reposition vs time Pac-man can change direction and reposition

    This then point a key factor the gamer need to have:
    - Very good reflexes to act and re-act
    - Very fast thinking

    1d.What are the timing intervals in seconds ?
    francoisadt: one sixieth of second. So your brain think faster than the computer but your eyes do not.

    2.What ghost monsters do you group first Pinky-Red-liteBlue-Orange?
    francoisadt:
    Good question. One key aspect is to group any ghost with RED as soon as possible to eliminate the possibility to be trappedby four ghosts moving vs three ghosts vs two ghosts vs one ghost (all are groued as ONE)

    I recommend group RED then PINK first because they are the ones target Pac-man directly.


    3.What are their names & characteristics?
    See Jamey PittMan's document
    https://www.gamasutra.com/view/featu...an_dossier.php


    More resources:

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/francoi...-step-overview

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/francoi...2-2016-1109-pm
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/francoi...-deterministic

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/francoi...n-and-mspacman

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/francoi...-345-they-meet
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    JJTJohnnyLightning World #1 Racer on Arcade Game Fast & Furious Super Cars 1,872 Match Wins 52Cities
  5. 05-07-2020, 02:15 AM
    Continuation of this discussion is now placed here on New General Forum due to the archived forum not visible.

    LINK: "https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/215959-How-is-grouping-ghost-monsters-done-on-Ms-Pacman-Pacman"

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