Atari 2600

  1. Re: Phoenix(2600) world record at MGC 09!!

    04-04-2009, 01:06 PM
    I have no way of knowing how many scores Mruczek has removed, or how many he approved that shouldn't have been. There have been enough instances of both that any of Mruczek's decisions should be under review at this point. But if you or anyone from TG knows who removed it and why, I'm sure the last thing they'd want to do is discuss it openly (that has never been TG's "m.o.", which is one of their less-than-welcome traits). All I know is, I personally made a list of what was in TG's database when Mruczek took over, and several of Todd's VCS scores were removed during his tenure (as a senior ref). These were scores that were entered by the previous senior TG ref.

    Scott
    O.K. Lets get real here guys. Robert dedicated 5 1/2 years to verifying scores while working for TG and has vast knowledge of basically just about all games in general. Robert was a Senior Ref then Chief Ref as well as a board member. Excuse me Stiphen but who are you to question Robert's ability to verify scores?

    TG asks us to do a job and we do it to the best of our abilities using our knoledge and integrity. If TG just asks anyone to verify scores where would be the boundries? I stand behind TG and Robert as well as their and our decisions either to accept scores or not to approve them. There are rules and even if one is in question it is up to US, not the general public or the players to make these decisions.

    Senior Referee
    Greg Sakundiak
  2. Re: Phoenix(2600) world record at MGC 09!!

    04-04-2009, 06:21 PM
    Robert's done nothing more then be as fair, impartial, honest and with integrity the entire time he has been with Twin Galaxies, acting as a cornerstone. Any decisions that were made have been made with all staff knowledgeable at that time and only after discussion involving the people involved with the score issues as well.

    Now, I will ask you once more Mr. Stilphen to take this to private mail so you can explain your statements and offer proof behind them, as this thread is being dangerously hijacked.


    Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
  3. Re: Phoenix(2600) world record at MGC 09!!

    04-05-2009, 09:58 AM
    Before I again reply to this lingering issue, I just want to say congrats to Paul (Zimmzamm) on your latest Phoenix record. The last thing I want to do is drag out another of Twin Galaxies 'skeletons', especially in what is your thread, but hopefully you see the problem of someone removing scores from the database without proof to back up their reason(s) because I'm sure you would like to know you're the true champion of a given game, as anyone would. Perhaps a moderator will move these posts to their own thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by sakundiak
    O.K. Lets get real here guys. Robert dedicated 5 1/2 years to verifying scores while working for TG and has vast knowledge of basically just about all games in general. Robert was a Senior Ref then Chief Ref as well as a board member. Excuse me Stiphen but who are you to question Robert's ability to verify scores?

    TG asks us to do a job and we do it to the best of our abilities using our knoledge and integrity. If TG just asks anyone to verify scores where would be the boundries? I stand behind TG and Robert as well as their and our decisions either to accept scores or not to approve them. There are rules and even if one is in question it is up to US, not the general public or the players to make these decisions.

    Senior Referee
    Greg Sakundiak[/b]
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Kelly R. Flewin
    Robert's done nothing more then be as fair, impartial, honest and with integrity the entire time he has been with Twin Galaxies, acting as a cornerstone. Any decisions that were made have been made with all staff knowledgeable at that time and only after discussion involving the people involved with the score issues as well.

    Now, I will ask you once more Mr. Stilphen to take this to private mail so you can explain your statements and offer proof behind them, as this thread is being dangerously hijacked.


    Mr. Kelly R. Flewin

    First off, the last platform Mruczek has a vast knowledge of would be the Atari 2600 (so let's "get real" here, for real). Even his general knowledge of the system's library has proven suspect. I remember quite well how screwed up the VCS database entries became once he started trying to separate all the NTSC, PAL, and emulator scores, because he took it upon himself to start relabeling dozens of console scores as emulator ones, based on his own opinions:

    viewtopic.php?f=77&t=8363

    Neither does he possess the technical knowledge required to be making decisions regarding speed up kits, emulators, etc,as this thread about arcade conversion kits shows:

    viewtopic.php?f=77&t=8512

    I’ll touch on 2 specific examples regarding the VCS platform, with Pitfall and Donkey Kong::

    Treated NTSC, PAL, and emulator scores equally, even while myself and others spoke out about how doing that isn’t fair to anyone, especially NTSC console players. In fact, every time I tried to explain how that policy was wrong, he instead either outright ignored my inquiries or tried to vilify me for “attacking” him. During this time, he promoted emulator scores from players like Rodrigo Lopes as “world records” (you were aware of some of these already, Mr. Flewin):

    viewtopic.php?f=77&t=6561 - "impossible" VCS Decathlon scores - Jan 2006
    viewtopic.php?f=77&t=7320 - questionable VCS Pitfall score, pt 1 - May 2006
    viewtopic.php?f=77&t=7464 - questionable VCS Pitfall score, pt 2 - June 2006
    viewtopic.php?f=77&t=8369 - question about a console score - Oct 2006 (which went unanswered)

    Multiple times I asked what platform Rodrigo was using (real console or emulator) and what version of the game (NTSC or PAL). When I finally got an answer from Rodrigo, he said simply 'NTSC'. In the meantime, Mruczek posted a front-page story about Rodrigo breaking the world record on VCS Pitfall, never mentioning any specifics about it being done on an emulator. It was only when people kept asking did the truth come out that he used an emulator (btw, the story was never corrected).

    * I should note that at the time Rodrigo and other Brazilian players were given the 'right' to verify their own scores - they didn't have to send tapes or recordings of their performances b/c Walter deemed having a presence there to be very significant to them. Why they would want to sacrifice TG's reputation, not to mention alienating the majority of their supporters by doing things like this, I don't know.


    Removed and/or relabeled dozen’s of Atari 2600 scores from players like Todd Rogers and David Yancey. Here's one example:

    viewtopic.php?f=77&t=2733 Mruczek publicly acknowledges Todd Rogers’s Atari 2600 Donkey Kong marathon – May 2004

    viewtopic.php?f=77&t=930 I first mention VCS Donkey Kong fireball problem - Sept 2004

    viewtopic.php?f=50&t=6247&start=60 I notice Todd’s VCS DK score had been removed. Mruczek claims there are 2 different versions of the game – Dec 2005

    viewtopic.php?f=49&t=7350&start=20 Mruczek starts changing his reason for removing the score - May 2006

    viewtopic.php?f=77&t=8363 Mruczek give different reason for removing Todd’s DK score. Starts re-labeling scores in the database on his personal assumptions, defends Ron Corcoran’s unverified scores, insults csly for questioning him.

    In total, Mruczek gave 3 different reason for removing the score:

    1st - Todd took too many breaks during his 38-hour marathon

    Todd claims he played the game straight through, like he does with all his marathons.

    2nd - Todd must have a different version of the game b/c he got past a point in the game that Robert couldn't .

    Robert never had either his or Todd's carts dumped/verified to support his claim (I later dumped Todd's cart and it there was nothing different about it). Both David Yancey and myself posted videos showing the spot in the game in question isn't impossible to get past, at which point Robert offered excuse #3...

    3rd - Todd's score was never properly verified.

    The only facts we know for sure are that Ron Corcoran had Todd's videotape, and Ron verified the Donkey Kong score and entered it into the database – NOT Mruczek.

    So Mr. Sakundiak and Mr. Flewin, here's we have:

    #1 can't be proven b/c Todd's tape was lost.
    #2 has yet to be proven because Mruczek sold his cart to Tom Duncan (my offer to dump it still stands).
    #3 can't be proven b/c Ron is no longer around.

    Now, tell me how Mruczek or anyone could legitimately remove this particular score, given the available facts? These threads and more have been publicly available on TG's forums for years, Mr. Flewin, so let's not pretend there's never been any "proof" to back up my claims, mkay?


    As for who am I to question Mruczek's decisions, who do I need to be? I know Walter took the stance of "Mruczek can do no wrong", (and both of your comments would seem to indicate you both seem intent on following right in lockstep with that opinion..) but I've yet to meet anyone in my life who was above being questioned about anything. I don't care if the guy's been here since day 1. Even if he was, it doesn't automatically mean he's infallible or his actions are unquestionable. Look how respected Ron Corcoran used to be, only to learn he entered his own scores into TG's database w/o anyone else's approval, for years. If that isn't disrespectful to TG's own 'code of conduct', not to mention every player who submitted a score through the proper channels, I don't know what is. And to answer your question, Mr. Sakundiak, I maintain the Atari 2600 section of Digital Press' database. I've also written for the 2600 Connection since 1990, I've interviewed dozens of former classic game programmers and designers such as David Crane and Howard Scott Warshaw, I've been involved with the Classic Gaming Expo since 2001... do I need to go on? :lol: You seem to forget that TG exists for the players, not the other way around. TG needs players; players don't need TG. It would be wise for TG to start listening to players concerns more...

    Before you both decide to jump all over me for “daring to question” Mruczek’s past decisions, spend some time and do a little research and work on addressing issues such as these, instead of trying to silence people. I've always offered proof to back up my statements. Always. (That's something you should know full well, Mr. Flewin. Too bad I was never always given the same courtesy ....) Otherwise, you and everyone else can dogpile on me all you want, and you can continue to turn a blind eye to what are some serious underlying issues with this site as long as you want, but as I’ve told Mruczek before and I’ll repeat it again for you both – ignoring these issues and labeling people as “troublemakers” for inquiring about them doesn’t magically make those issues disappear. It's never worked before, and it never will.

    Btw, insulting me in TG's private forums is something both Mruczek and you Mr. Flewin have done (and something that you've both never apologized for. I'm sure you wouldn't want me posting some of those comments now, would you? Probably not....). This is why from now on, all discussions with you will be in public forums. You have to give respect to get respect.
  4. Re: Atari 2600

    04-05-2009, 12:46 PM
    I've said my peace.
  5. Re: Atari 2600

    04-05-2009, 02:25 PM
    To file a grievance regarding a record, title, settings, etc. has always been a right afforded to players. I don't see that as being discouraged in any way here.

    That said it's another thing, based on what amounts to a mere handful of disputes compared to the countless thousands of scores out there, to offer up the same as evidence of "shenanigans" - for want of a better term.

    In other words, one cannot simply state: "Well, since this/these score(s) being (dis)allowed by a certain group, person, etc. is questionable, we can't trust a single one from the same" as a matter of fact. As has always been the case, these types of issues must be handled on a case-by-case basis. Attempting to apply said blanket statement as an absolute would disenfranchise far more players than it would potentially exonerate.

    Again, I don't think anyone wants legitimate issues to be "silenced." Just keep in mind that, without pointing fingers, a bit a tact would go a long, long way....
  6. Re: Atari 2600

    04-05-2009, 04:40 PM
    I fail to see why there's so much talk about the past. Regardless of a person's stance... the past is just that. I know I'm workin to move TG in the present and future, as are the rest of the staff.

    This is like a congressman going out tomorrow and speaking out against the Boston Tea Party.
    Patrick Scott Patterson

    Twitter - @OriginalPSP
    WeGotOne.com
  7. Re: Atari 2600

    04-05-2009, 04:57 PM
    great stuff stonic!

    interesting to read those old threads.

    btw, what do you do with CGE? I am good friends with Sean Kelly. and I know Joe and John. I go to Sean's yearly party at his store and Joe and John always fly in for that. great stuff!

    love Digital Press! very cool that you handle the 2600 stuff! I make a price guide for Nintendo's VC games and I use Digital Press and Video Game Collector for referance.

    I always wanted to read the 2600 Connection. great to hear that you are part of that as well!
    "Have YOU Played Atari Today?!"
  8. Re: Atari 2600

    04-05-2009, 05:36 PM
    Tim, please read the threads I posted. I never said "any/all scores entered by Mruczek should be removed" or any such thing. But yeah, given how unwilling and flat-out resistant Mruczek was to answer simple questions like, "What platform was this score achieved on?", or "Why was this score removed?" often indicates a person is hiding someone, or isn't being completely honest, so it wouldn't hurt to have an impartial and unbiased referee double-check the reasons why he removed all the scores he did, and we're talking about dozens of scores here. The only score I spent any time investigating was the VCS Donkey Kong one, and if you read those threads, you'd see this issue involves several years worth of history and info. The weak excuses he offered for removing it, as well as his reasons for initially re-labeling console scores as emulator ones (based on his own guidelines for what constitutes being a rare game. Ex: "That game is very rare, therefore he likely doesn't have the actual cartridge, so I'll mark it emulator") should have been questioned by everyone within TG. This is the same person who fought me every step of the way in my efforts to get TG to separate NTSC, PAL, and emulator scores - all I got in return was "There's no difference"... "It's too much work"... "You don't know what you're talking about, you're just some purist/troublemaker", and so on (I have to give Flewin credit for at least cleaning up that database mess after Mruczek left). But instead of referees attacking the issue, some instead choose to attack the messenger (i.e. "Who are you to question us?"). Mruczek even blasted me (more than once) for using the quote function on the message board :roll: He did everything he could to deflect most every issue I brought up. Ducking the issues isn't exactly tactful, any more than removing a score w/o notifying the person who achieved it is.

    Btw, I'll mention this little fact- Mruczek became the #1 ranked player for some of the VCS games after he removed the scores - Donkey Kong is one of them (and the #2 player for that game is Ron Corcoran).
  9. Re: Phoenix(2600) world record at MGC 09!!

    04-05-2009, 05:43 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by stonic
    Before I again reply to this lingering issue, I just want to say congrats to Paul (Zimmzamm) on your latest Phoenix record. The last thing I want to do is drag out another of Twin Galaxies 'skeletons', especially in what is your thread, but hopefully you see the problem of someone removing scores from the database without proof to back up their reason(s) because I'm sure you would like to know you're the true champion of a given game, as anyone would. Perhaps a moderator will move these posts to their own thread.
    thanks stonic! :)
    yeah, it does suck that some scores get removed. hopefully that will never happen to mine. ;) :)
    "Have YOU Played Atari Today?!"
  10. Re: Phoenix(2600) world record at MGC 09!!

    04-05-2009, 11:40 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by stonic
    Treated NTSC, PAL, and emulator scores equally, even while myself and others spoke out about how doing that isn’t fair to anyone, especially NTSC console players.
    I'll pick up on this one highlighted point as I run out of the door for work... This was an established policy prior to Robert becoming staff. Robert toed the line on the policy but was also the Chief Ref who changed the policy - a credit you seem to regularly miss.
    Lots of 1sts to be surpassed: what are you waiting for? Play the game, submit the score...
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