I don't get it

  1. 07-18-2014, 12:48 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by donatreides View Post
    I find it difficult to understand why some very, very basic questions can't be answered yet. Such as:
    1. What role will Referees play?
    2. How will Referees be selected?
    3. Will video/INP submissions be public or private?
    4. Will direct-video submissions (such as VHS tapes) be accepted?

    These are very basic questions that should be answered before work begins on TG's "Rocket to the Moon" - especially the first two.
    Odd. I'd say you have that backwards.

    The first two are like worrying about whether the Lunar Module's legs are going to be gray or beige. Numbers 3 and 4 are more what will determine whether or not this mission will "slip the surly bonds of Earth and touch the face of God".
  2. 07-18-2014, 01:02 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by God of PopTarts
    I read the "past is the past" diatribe on the front page. I agree that a clean slate is needed to move forward. But something that must be in place for Twin Galaxies to survive in the future is transparency in the officiating process.
    Everything that Jace has said and done leads me to believe that he sees transparency as necessary moving forward. Lack of transparency was a key problem with prior iterations of TG in not just the submission process, but in other decisions and policy making as well. Almost every major problem that TG had in the past was affected by the lack of transparency in one form or another.

    I truly don't think a fee based submission process is coming. There are plenty of other ways to make money, and charging for submissions is one of the worst ways.

    To everyone that keeps asking about the role of referees and how they will be selected, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. The days of referee-based verification are over, and I would take that to the bank.

    Also, don't confuse transparency with democracy. Jace never said anywhere that we would have a say in crafting the submission process or any of TG's major functions. I do think that once the process is in place, it will have elements of community verification, but I don't think Jace is asking for advice on how to run TG at this juncture. That does not mean he isn't being transparent. Right now, I think there just isn't much for him to show yet since important choices are probably still being made. He doesn't owe us a play by play view as things happen.

    That said, there is some value to testing the waters with the users of your product to see how certain features will be received. Look at what happened with the Xbox One release. Microsoft made a bunch of poor "feature" choices and was prepared to ram them down our throats, but they backed off of them shortly prior to release due to public outcry. The damage was done though, and gamers were turned off by the arrogance of Microsoft. TG had a similar arrogance problem in the past that I hope will not return.
    Last edited by NightRider; 07-18-2014 at 01:18 PM.
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  3. 07-20-2014, 07:26 PM
    I honestly appreciate everyone's efforts to get TG back up and running, its just that its been YEARS since I've been able to send something in and I don't know how much more patients I have left.

    I really would like to know the plans on how TG will function and operate when it opens for business, that's all.

    At least just an outline of what they plan on doing? Maybe users here could throw their 2 cents in as well.

    This whole thing is really a team effort anyway. The players are just as important as Twin Galaxies is. Without the players TG is nothing.

    So I say let the players know what's going on.

    P.S.

    Also on the message boards I've noticed that if you are not logged in then you can see the name of the person who gave a "thanks", but when you are logged in you cannot see the person's names who gave a "thanks" seems like it should have been the other way around.
    Last edited by erockbrox; 07-20-2014 at 07:29 PM.
  4. 07-20-2014, 09:55 PM
    We're all with you in terms of wanting to know what is going on, but patience is the key. I advise just hanging on for a bit longer while Jace and his team get the key elements of the database fully ironed out as well as what the upcoming new adjudication methodology is. Surely those of us interested in one day submitting again can record in the meantime, and at the very lest practice our favorite submission titles. It just takes time.

    Jace strikes me as someone who does not post piece-meal...he waits until he is ready with the answers, so once he finally posts I am sure that all concerns will be addressed.
  5. 07-21-2014, 11:20 AM
    What I'm going to express may sound depressing for some, but I would be prepared for a cold reality check. This is my personal take on the current state of world record attempts and what I foresee as the future adjudication process, if there's any.

    The current era of gaming is less about achieving a high score, and more about online, cooperative, multi-player gaming. Online first-person shooters, MMORPGs, are about team competition, achievements (trophies) and not about high scores. Then you have mobile games, that are about killing time while you wait for a flight or a cab ride. Retro games have been ported to mobile devices, emulators, consoles, etc. but mostly to appeal to your nostalgic feelings and in part to introduce a new generation to the classic era of games. It’s not so much about world records anymore. Yes, there may be a bunch of gamers still playing for a record, but does that mean that rest of the gaming community is interested to know the time achieved for track A, level B, speed C, car model D variation for an Intellivision, Coleco, or Atari 5200 race game from the 80s? We know what's in it for the gamer, but what's in it for the rest of the gaming community out there? Do they care enough about console records or any record for that matter? And then, what's in it for Twin Galaxies? Do you think the new TG will focus their efforts on reviewing 18-hour marathon runs of obscure games on VHS tapes (!!!) with scores that lead to 15th place on the leaderboards? and that is not considering the expertise and level of effort necessary to catch cheating tactics, video tricks, or anything that could deceive the reviewer/referee. I bet a handful will raise their hand and jump to volunteer for this task, but do you think that is really the future of TG?

    There are still classic arcade games out there that are still relevant to people. Games like Donkey Kong and Pac-Man are maybe the most recognized, but fewer and fewer original machines are available, and even less in acceptable conditions for competition. You can count with your own fingers the number of sanctioned arcade places carrying classic games from the 80’s. Who is going to go through all the trouble of validating the authenticity of a machine located in a local arcade in Juneau Alaska, to name a place, for a record score run?

    I see the TG web site evolving into a gaming news site with the addition of organized official retro competitions. A secondary feature would be the official (but probably locked) archive of the arcade and console world records. I can’t see TG potentially validating any one of the game variations on their enormous database or adding game variations to older irrelevant games, it’s just impractical. The current game systems have their own trophy and achievement tracking, and even the PC gamers (with Steam) have their own tracking of achievements. I know these achievements do not consider marathon runs, cheating, switching players, hacks, modded controllers, but what is the alternative? Is it the lengthy, error-prone, biased, archaic tape review processes that has only brought controversy in the past?

    We have to let go of the old ways. It was fun, I mean it IS still fun, but what a few, -although a very loud few- people are expecting is simply impractical. Think of it; submitting scores on VHS tapes by mail? Really? You know how long the VHS technology has being discontinued? I also haven't seen a pause or rewind button for INP files. These players have to wake up and re-think their expectations. It’s time to realize that that this is a completely new era of gaming. It’s nice to reminisce, and re-live those moments of our youth, and probably introduce classic gaming to a new generation, but the actual competitiveness is not and should not be the main focus anymore, fewer people care. This hiatus is giving you the chance to move on to other things, to stop obsessing about getting obscure records verified and stop proposing more game variations that only add to the effort of validating a record that probably most people outside a very small circle don't care about anymore. I think we all need to be prepared for radical changes and stop insisting on keeping alive an outdated verification process. What do you foresee or would like to see?
  6. 07-21-2014, 01:21 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by litox View Post
    What I'm going to express may sound depressing for some, but I would be prepared for a cold reality check. This is my personal take on the current state of world record attempts and what I foresee as the future adjudication process, if there's any.

    The current era of gaming is less about achieving a high score, and more about online, cooperative, multi-player gaming. Online first-person shooters, MMORPGs, are about team competition, achievements (trophies) and not about high scores. Then you have mobile games, that are about killing time while you wait for a flight or a cab ride. Retro games have been ported to mobile devices, emulators, consoles, etc. but mostly to appeal to your nostalgic feelings and in part to introduce a new generation to the classic era of games. It’s not so much about world records anymore. Yes, there may be a bunch of gamers still playing for a record, but does that mean that rest of the gaming community is interested to know the time achieved for track A, level B, speed C, car model D variation for an Intellivision, Coleco, or Atari 5200 race game from the 80s? We know what's in it for the gamer, but what's in it for the rest of the gaming community out there? Do they care enough about console records or any record for that matter? And then, what's in it for Twin Galaxies? Do you think the new TG will focus their efforts on reviewing 18-hour marathon runs of obscure games on VHS tapes (!!!) with scores that lead to 15th place on the leaderboards? and that is not considering the expertise and level of effort necessary to catch cheating tactics, video tricks, or anything that could deceive the reviewer/referee. I bet a handful will raise their hand and jump to volunteer for this task, but do you think that is really the future of TG?

    There are still classic arcade games out there that are still relevant to people. Games like Donkey Kong and Pac-Man are maybe the most recognized, but fewer and fewer original machines are available, and even less in acceptable conditions for competition. You can count with your own fingers the number of sanctioned arcade places carrying classic games from the 80’s. Who is going to go through all the trouble of validating the authenticity of a machine located in a local arcade in Juneau Alaska, to name a place, for a record score run?

    I see the TG web site evolving into a gaming news site with the addition of organized official retro competitions. A secondary feature would be the official (but probably locked) archive of the arcade and console world records. I can’t see TG potentially validating any one of the game variations on their enormous database or adding game variations to older irrelevant games, it’s just impractical. The current game systems have their own trophy and achievement tracking, and even the PC gamers (with Steam) have their own tracking of achievements. I know these achievements do not consider marathon runs, cheating, switching players, hacks, modded controllers, but what is the alternative? Is it the lengthy, error-prone, biased, archaic tape review processes that has only brought controversy in the past?

    We have to let go of the old ways. It was fun, I mean it IS still fun, but what a few, -although a very loud few- people are expecting is simply impractical. Think of it; submitting scores on VHS tapes by mail? Really? You know how long the VHS technology has being discontinued? I also haven't seen a pause or rewind button for INP files. These players have to wake up and re-think their expectations. It’s time to realize that that this is a completely new era of gaming. It’s nice to reminisce, and re-live those moments of our youth, and probably introduce classic gaming to a new generation, but the actual competitiveness is not and should not be the main focus anymore, fewer people care. This hiatus is giving you the chance to move on to other things, to stop obsessing about getting obscure records verified and stop proposing more game variations that only add to the effort of validating a record that probably most people outside a very small circle don't care about anymore. I think we all need to be prepared for radical changes and stop insisting on keeping alive an outdated verification process. What do you foresee or would like to see?

    This is a good post. However all we are asking is to be TOLD this, if this will be the case. Let's cut the cord so we can move on to other things if this is the future of TG. It's more than a little disingenuous to lead us to believe score submissions will continue if it's just b.s.

    I do have to disagree with your statement that the VHS is 'dead.' I still can buy blank VHS tapes at stores, and so long as that's the case, the technology is still very much alive. Just because you no longer use it doesn't mean others do not. I don't have a 'DVR,' so if I ever want to record something, I throw in a blank VHS tape and hit the record button on my VCR. It couldn't be simpler.

    Also the VAST majority of us don't 'obsess' about our obscure records. There are a few crazies in the woods to be sure, and unfortunately they are often as loud as they are insane, but most of us always have and always will view this as a fun casual hobby.

    EDIT: Just out of curiosity, I searched for VCR's at bestbuy.com, kmart.com, walmart.com, and target.com. All four still sell VCR/DVD combo players.
    Last edited by DrewBledsoe; 07-21-2014 at 02:08 PM.
  7. 07-21-2014, 07:52 PM
    Much as patience for TG may have changed for you, "donatreides", giving up the games you have enjoyed playing for so many years may one day down the line prove to be something you regret, unless playing via emulator makes the most sense for you in case you ever get the bug to play again for old time's sake. Otherwise, once gone, some titles you may never enjoy playing again. Not every title is emulated, and some become quite rare to acquire down the line.

    Gaming aside, people have enjoyed their passions for many years both in and outside of gaming. Our hobby just happens to have a scoreboard aspect to it which is one of the most enjoyable elements of competitive gaming, I must admit, right up there with discussing a specific title on the forum.

    I have some regrets as well, giving up a few systems and titles, but truth be told I have saved the few that are very near and dear to me, for the time when down the line I may have the free time to relearn a cherished title and see how I can compare to what I accomplished once many years prior.

    Modern competition is admittedly fun as well, but all I suggest is think twice before the big sale, though if you are absolutely sure then good luck with the sale.

    Truth be told, 25 years from now the titles that I enjoy playing this moment will be in the 40-60 year range, from "Depthcharge" (1977) thru "Doom 3" (2001). There are about a half dozen console titles that I doubt I would ever tire of playing...and a good 20 or 30 arcade titles as well as a half dozen PC titles. Not many in total, about 40-50 titles, but I doubt I would ever give them up. But gamers differ, and when the PS9 comes out, who knows, I may say the heck with "Doom 3" and play "Doom 6" by then instead because it is that much better :)
  8. 07-21-2014, 09:49 PM
    Am I the only one that doesn't mind a small administrative fee? Some small, flat fee like $20 or so seems pretty reasonable to me. Expecting people to watch endless hours of video submissions doesn't.

    To be honest, if you couldn't afford something like $20, you probably shouldn't be playing video games so much :)
  9. 07-21-2014, 10:21 PM
    I wouldn't mind that myself, but there are those who submit literally hundreds of records (and then some) so it tends to penalize the most prolific and/or enthusiastic submitters.
  10. 07-21-2014, 10:21 PM
    Since TG was all about high scores then they shouldn't ever abandon that merit. I'm fine if they want to do new stuff on modern games and such, but no matter what they should always be there for high scores on any game no matter how old it is. That was the original purpose.... a high score data base.

    The sad part is that many people really don't care about setting scores on 20+ year old games, but there are some people who still do. The reason why paying like $20 per submission isn't a good idea is because sometimes people send in 30 submissions at a single time. I've seen this happen with MAME. Some people would sent in a ton of submissions. That would be impractical to pay for.

    However I wouldn't mind paying a reasonable yearly membership which allowed me to send in X amount of submission per year. This way it wouldn't cost too much. Sometimes you would use the service and submit and then sometimes you wouldn't. So hopefully in the end it all evens out.

    I would also rather like to see a fundraiser rather than the individual players have to pay a fee. Have a big fundraiser where everyone just donates. Or better yet just get the money from advertizing.

    No matter what though I still think that players should be recognized for their achievements even if they are on done on super old games.
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