Scores achieved at Kong Off 3

  1. 08-19-2014, 12:07 PM
    First of all, I'm about as far out of the "good ol' boy" system around here as anyone could be. Anyone who says otherwise is legally blind. In fact, some of the people impacted by this aren't exactly going to send me Christmas cards and frankly, in some cases the feelings are mutual.

    But to the actual matter at hand, by your logic then, Xelia, then every score ever taken down at an ACAM or Funspot event, or even at their location when TG was on good terms with them, is also invalid. That would even include the famous Perfect Pac-Man by Billy Mitchell.

    That would also shoot down every score ever taken in official old TG contests, including all the old Aladdin's Castle events the That's Incredible tourney, etc.

    Hell, there's more evidence of the Kong Off scores than any of those things I just mentioned. Why not just invalidate the whole scoreboard then? There's no "tangible proof" of almost the entire database by this logic.

    Jace doesn't know what its like to spend the money and time to travel to an event, aiming to set a world record on a game that means something to them, and doing so, in front of people with the added pressure of having those people there. I do, though. So do a lot of people, including some that have somehow managed to never fall victim to the BS rumor mill that seems to latch on to some people around here, such as Donald. I never thought I'd see the day where seemingly sane people would even suggest a gamer like that should be called into question.

    Invalidating those scores based on what comes off as a singling out of one and only one event because of a handful of people choose to discount the impartiality of previous staff and/or people in attendance with no rational reasons for doing so is the most disgusting thing in the history of this disorganization, and unfair to those who just had their hard work tossed aside like common trash.

    And speaking with first-hand knowledge of how it feels to tick off loyal TG gamers, unintentionally or not, I feel it is a very damaging mistake for the KO3 scores to get this treatment.

    Any further discussion toward this directed at me should be sent direct. I see no further reason for me to read or take part in a forum where blatant dismissal of people's scores is actually supported.
  2. 08-19-2014, 12:33 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Emayl View Post
    Just to add my two cents, the reason those scores aren't in the database is the fault of the previous administration, not the current one. Any frustration should be directed toward that ownership and not the team that's currently working to bring the organization back online. And I don't see what is "unfair" about saying the matter will be looked at closely and carefully. That's exactly what should be done and exactly what previous incarnations of Twin Galaxies failed to do.

    Players who achieved scores at the Kong Off 3 have every right to be upset about those scores not being on the scoreboard, I know I would be, but that is not the fault of Jace and the new staff. That's the fault of the last group and their sloppy record-keeping. Directing anger at this current group is misguided.

    They say the Kong Off 3 scores are on the agenda. I believe them. I'll wait and see what happens.

    Hey Emayl,

    Allow me a moment to put the lid on a can of worms here before they squirm off into various directions in search of the shadows of Blame. I realize your comments are made in good faith based on what you have been told, or read or may even deduce from outward perception. No problem. I understand how people view the last ownership and even some of its staff. including myself. I don't wish to debate that. No reason to. But I do want to make a statement loud and clear to anyone who happens to read this. Your post and the content within illustrates an unfortunate misconception about why The Kong Off 3 side competition scores, or any scores for that matter, were not entered in the database.

    The scoreboard and all access to it was held and maintained by Websignia -not the owners. One area of friction between owners and their adjudicators which led to the fall in November was that Websignia would not allow them access. Access was imperative to the function of a national event like The Kong Off 3. Access to the scoreboard -even the website itself- was emphatically denied them during the event and even before it began. It was not their fault. It was not sloppy record keeping, indifference on the part of the adjudicators or anything malevolent.

    Now, learning this after I arrived, a day before the event -even though I was not an adjudicator- I created a notebook as did others, to log the scores in, thinking the arguments between business partners, Websignia and Twin Galaxies, would blow over. It didn't. I don't know about anyone else but I still have my notebook. I have the scores. All of them.

    Twin Galaxies knows I have it. They have known I have it as this subject and my concern for those scores was mentioned as far back as before Twin Galaxies' ownership title was transferred in sale. I have offered them the information more than once but my opinion on the matter is deemed invalid due to the controversies that surround me and the fact I am not an adjudicator. I understand that. However, I wrote down the scores for my own information and as a courtesy to the fine champions I and others saw achieve greatness in obtaining live world record scores in an atmosphere that is challenging to say the least. The Donkey Kong competitors had individual cameras and their own finely run website. The side-competitors had a notebook. It was the best anyone could do given the situation at hand. It is my sincere regret that their scores were unable to be added to the database and that this situation regarding their validity still remains.

    May I remind everyone that Twin Galaxies began long ago by a man with a single notebook.

    Peace ♥
  3. 08-19-2014, 01:44 PM
    Let's start here:

    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalPSP View Post
    Any further discussion toward this directed at me should be sent direct. I see no further reason for me to read or take part in a forum where blatant dismissal of people's scores is actually supported.
    Since everyone knows you'll actually come back and read the forums I'll respond here in an environment where an open discussion is possible (should you choose to reply) and vaguebooking isn't the modus operandi. If you want to be taken seriously as an advocate for something (or anything), stand your ground. Or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalPSP View Post
    First of all, I'm about as far out of the "good ol' boy" system around here as anyone could be. Anyone who says otherwise is legally blind. In fact, some of the people impacted by this aren't exactly going to send me Christmas cards and frankly, in some cases the feelings are mutual.
    I didn't say you were in the system, I said you were advocating for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalPSP View Post
    But to the actual matter at hand, by your logic then, Xelia, then every score ever taken down at an ACAM or Funspot event, or even at their location when TG was on good terms with them, is also invalid. That would even include the famous Perfect Pac-Man by Billy Mitchell.
    Considering that Funspot posted a score of 1 for Crazy Kong recently this is not out of the question. But I'm sure that's the only example in history of a suspect score being recorded at an event.

    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalPSP View Post
    That would also shoot down every score ever taken in official old TG contests, including all the old Aladdin's Castle events the That's Incredible tourney, etc.

    Hell, there's more evidence of the Kong Off scores than any of those things I just mentioned. Why not just invalidate the whole scoreboard then? There's no "tangible proof" of almost the entire database by this logic.
    You seem to have missed the most important part of Jace's dilemma: scores achieved at the Kong Off 3 were never entered into the database and documentation of those scores were not provided to him by the trusted scorekeepers of the previous incarnation of TG. Let's review:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall View Post
    The current Twin Galaxies doesn't have any record of those scores in its possession. NONE. They were not provided during the asset transfer of TG. So that means that someone has to provide them. Who might that person be? The players themselves? Or a ref who was there? Which ref? Does that ref have all the score records for that day? If not, who else does?

    What if one refs records don't match another one's exactly? What if a player disagrees with what is being provided? What if only some of the score records are provided and not others? In that situation does the player who's records aren't provided just lose out?

    I have no problem with someone to taking a grandstanding position on this subject so that they might gain adulation or whatever, however the fact is that a cavalier approach to heading into this matter could result in numerous problems. Since all it takes to become toxic is for one person involved to cry foul toward another person in the matter of the Kong Off 3 records, the delicate situation around this whole issue should be obvious - that is why I stated that it will be looked at and figured out carefully. As it should be.
    How can it any more clear than that?

    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalPSP View Post
    Jace doesn't know what its like to spend the money and time to travel to an event, aiming to set a world record on a game that means something to them, and doing so, in front of people with the added pressure of having those people there. I do, though. So do a lot of people, including some that have somehow managed to never fall victim to the BS rumor mill that seems to latch on to some people around here, such as Donald. I never thought I'd see the day where seemingly sane people would even suggest a gamer like that should be called into question.
    Jace's performance history is irrelevant. Your monetary, time, and emotional investments are irrelevant. You're implying that you and others should be given scoreboard glory based soley on the inconvenience of achieving a score. Nobody is saying that this isn't a tough situation. It will ruffle feathers regardless of the outcome. Regardless, scoreboard integrity is always a priority over ego and feelings. And although it is irrelevant to this issue, do you really think that Jace is currently in a situation that is less stressful in terms of financial commitment, time investment, and personal integrity than any WR you've ever attempted or professional risk you've ever taken?

    Also, nobody has called Donald's integrity into question. How is the rumor mill even remotely related here? Again, you've misunderstood Jace's problem and/or my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalPSP View Post
    Invalidating those scores based on what comes off as a singling out of one and only one event because of a handful of people choose to discount the impartiality of previous staff and/or people in attendance with no rational reasons for doing so is the most disgusting thing in the history of this disorganization, and unfair to those who just had their hard work tossed aside like common trash.
    While the hyperbole and wordplay here does well to emphasize your feelings (or at least what you would want us to believe you feel), it betrays the lack of an objective, logical reasoning behind your thoughts. And, again, you've missed the point. Nobody has said that there is any reason to call suspicion on the KO3 scores, but that is not enough to merit their inclusion in the database.

    If it wasn't perfectly clear before, let me try to spell out it in a fancy list:
    1. I personally have no knowledge or suspicion that any dubious score-keeping occurred at KO3.
    2. I believe that all the scores achieved at the KO3 actually happened.
    3. No scores should be accepted by TG that do not meet a high standard of proof (which Jace has yet to determine).
    4. While I am not privy to TG documentation, I do not believe the existing documentation of KO3 is enough to merit the inclusion of those scores in the TG database.
    5. Screenshots, personal anecdotes, and write-ups are good for Facebook and BBQs, not the TG scoreboard.


    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalPSP View Post
    And speaking with first-hand knowledge of how it feels to tick off loyal TG gamers, unintentionally or not, I feel it is a very damaging mistake for the KO3 scores to get this treatment.
    As I noted in my previous post I would much rather have a score tossed aside than have it accepted under dubious circumstances. That is my personal opinion and I certainly wouldn't throw a hissy fit and storm off if someone disagreed with me.
    Last edited by xelnia; 08-19-2014 at 01:54 PM. Reason: spelling and missing word
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  4. 08-19-2014, 01:54 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by xelnia View Post
    ...documentation of those scores were not provided to him...
    This.

    Everybody seems to be missing this. Maybe it's a TL;DR problem.

    Jace is just saying that he currently has no documentation of the scores in question. What if none were forthcoming? What if it comes from different sources that conflict? How is he supposed to make a decision before these are known?
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  5. 08-19-2014, 02:18 PM
    who knows!
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  6. 08-19-2014, 03:06 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalPSP View Post

    Invalidating those scores based on what comes off as a singling out of one and only one event because of a handful of people choose to discount the impartiality of previous staff and/or people in attendance with no rational reasons for doing so is the most disgusting thing in the history of this disorganization, and unfair to those who just had their hard work tossed aside like common trash.

    And speaking with first-hand knowledge of how it feels to tick off loyal TG gamers, unintentionally or not, I feel it is a very damaging mistake for the KO3 scores to get this treatment.
    .
    Dear OriginalPSP,

    Let me reiterate:

    1.) Twin Galaxies does not have the scores. They were not provided at the time of ownership transfer. This means that Twin Galaxies literally has nothing to enter into the database. It has no Kong Off 3 data. No scores. Zero. NONE. It is not keeping Kong Off 3 scores out of the database - it does not have them.

    What that means is...

    2.) There is no Twin Galaxies "treatment," "singling out", "discounting" "unfairness" or "invalidation" of any scores or anything else in the matter. How can there be? It literally possesses nothing to "treat" "single out" "discount" "invalidate" or treat "unfairly."

    Which leads us to...

    3.) The clear statement that this matter will be looked into carefully and thoroughly. It was also stated that it is an important issue.

    In fact, here is the exact quote -

    "Live in person adjudication is a separate issue that will be addressed after the basic adjudication system functionality is completed.

    Adding new scores to the database from previous live events that were refereed by someone, but do not have any other tangible proof, is a complex issue that will be looked at and figured out carefully."


    All the above statement indicates is that the matter is a complex issue. That's it. It states nothing more. How you or anyone else might derive "treatment," "singling out", "discounting" "unfairness" or "invalidation" of any scores from the above statement does not make actual logical sense and I guess could be more related to a personal agenda or bias that is unknown to me. Certainly you should feel free to carry whatever opinion you would like - no problem with that.

    However, I just wanted to clarify.

    Hope that was helpful. :)
    Jace Hall
    Head Custodian
    www.TwinGalaxies.com
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  7. 08-19-2014, 04:00 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalPSP View Post

    Any further discussion toward this directed at me should be sent direct. I see no further reason for me to read or take part in a forum where blatant dismissal of people's scores is actually supported.
    Dismissal of people's scores happened during the first Kong-off. Nobody was up in arms about that. People were upset for like 5 seconds at the event.

    If anyone wants to make sure a record is verified no matter what, then they should record the performance themselves. Even in a live setting with refs. And that is what Joel West did during the 1st Kong off.

    Another reason to record for example, some of my records were verified by a few refs who have had their creditability questioned over the past few years. So if those records/performances by chance are questioned, I still have the recording to prove my worth to anyone who wishes to see it. Than just going off someones word ref or not.

    I assume the newest TG would accept a recorded performance from the KO3 as a submission today.

    Anyone going for a world record needs to have all the fail-safes in place. If people are gonna invest time, money, they should also invest in a camera and battery backups.


    Plus I thought the Kong-offs were designed more for head to head competition during specific time period.

    Whatever.
    Last edited by timmell; 08-19-2014 at 04:05 PM. Reason: removed a double word
  8. 08-19-2014, 06:14 PM
    Jace,

    Obviously, until now I was not aware that scores from the Kong Off 3 were never provided to you upon the transfer of TG. So, I do understand your statements and reasoning. My original post was based on an assumption (as others have pointed out) that since this was a TG event it was reasonable for the participants who achieved scores to believe that they would be entered into the database either during or just after the event. But because this didn't happen, the end result is that the current TG does not have the scores.

    As for my scores, I did record my Satan's Hollow record game. I made it available for Jourdan to download, and I do know he did retrieve it. I even sent him a score spreadsheet to show the running score by board. This is helpful because the screen on Satan's Hollow has terrible color contrast and it's often difficult or impossible to actually see the exact score during play on the recording.

    For the Joust TGTS doubles, there is no recording since John and I just happened to decide to play a few games. I only have a screen shot of the final score. The machine was verified to be on TGTS settings by either Jourdan or Richie.

    Again, I do understand your situation with this and I appreciate your efforts.

    Don
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  9. 08-20-2014, 06:29 AM
    With respect to Donkey Kong scores from KO3, you could just look up the final standings of Kong Off 3, and if any of the players have scores higher than the current registered TG score, it can be updated. At KO3, my DK score of 1,032,000 was my new PB, but I have since then increased that to 1,091,400, but don't know when/how to send that DVD in yet. So, updating my KO3 score in the interim could be done, but would not really be necessary.
  10. 08-20-2014, 08:01 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by xelnia View Post
    Jace's performance history is irrelevant. Your monetary, time, and emotional investments are irrelevant.
    Am I the only one that is reading this in a Borg voice? :)
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