Scores achieved at Kong Off 3

  1. 08-20-2014, 08:08 AM
    What I find sad is that two rather special people keep posting on social media how they are "through" with Twin Galaxies and want to distance themselves from it as much as possible yet they keep coming here to post their opinions and stir up trouble. Facebook tirades against Twin Galaxies and gamers in general is disrespectful to say the least. What is your motive? Grandstanding and drama vamping.

    Make up your minds. If you are for the hobby, for the gamers, for Twin Galaxies, then try doing something positive. Critics don't count, and neither do you.
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  2. 08-20-2014, 08:12 AM
    Took me awhile to find some of these answers but here's what I found out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall View Post
    The current Twin Galaxies doesn't have any record of those scores in its possession. NONE. They were not provided during the asset transfer of TG. So that means that someone has to provide them. Who might that person be?
    Someone with the ability to get a hold of Catherine DeSpira.

    The players themselves?
    (see above)

    Or a ref who was there?
    The closest thing to a ref on site was an honorary one.

    Which ref?
    Walter Day

    Does that ref have all the score records for that day?
    No

    If not, who else does?
    (See above)

    What if one refs records don't match another one's exactly?
    Not a problem in this case since there was no ref to begin with.

    What if a player disagrees with what is being provided?
    I can't imagine that happening, all of the scores were posted live via several venues and if someone had an issue certainly it would have come up by now.

    What if only some of the score records are provided and not others?
    Cat has all the scores.

    In that situation does the player who's records aren't provided just lose out?
    I sure hope not.




    The relaxed approach taken by the last administration may not be appreciated by the current but the fact remains that all the scores in question were officially recognized at one point by Twin Galaxies.

    To even suggest that adding those "new scores" to the current database: "is a complex issue" brings into question all scores posted by the previous owners. If you don't think they did their due diligence in making sure that all the games were played on the correct settings, and so on then you have to get rid of everything they did.
  3. 08-20-2014, 08:57 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by datagod View Post
    What I find sad is that two rather special people keep posting on social media how they are "through" with Twin Galaxies and want to distance themselves from it as much as possible yet they keep coming here to post their opinions and stir up trouble. Facebook tirades against Twin Galaxies and gamers in general is disrespectful to say the least. What is your motive? Grandstanding and drama vamping.

    Make up your minds. If you are for the hobby, for the gamers, for Twin Galaxies, then try doing something positive. Critics don't count, and neither do you.
    I concur.

    Especially when you consider that Jace's explanation shows that TG is clearly concerned with the integrity of it's data and that it is of the utmost importance, something I believe we can all agree on.

    The fact that some people who were present at KO3 themselves such as Xelnia are disputing these positions goes to show what the players actually want as opposed to words being put in their mouths by those who believe they represent them (and as you pointed out, claim quite regularly not to represent them).

    I cannot for the life of me understand the constant need to appear as martyrs by some in the community. It's beyond tedious, especially when it has little place in a discussion such as this (again pointed out by Xelnia) when you have Jace providing logical and thoroughly explained reasons why the data must be kept to the very highest standards. Note, if you observe the thanks/likes ratios of this thread, it's relatively clear which stance the community agrees with.

    That being said, those who choose to carry on this discussion in other forms where they can curate the response and discourse so that it only suits their motives are not only being petty, but cowardly, especially when they represent it without context (or predictably, in a context that makes them appear as a victim). One need only take a quick gander at social media to know to what I am referring.

    Personally, I absolutely agree with Jace's stance on this, the integrity of the scoreboard comes before all else, I say that as someone who has submitted records and will continue to do so in the future, be it at live events or not. I also believe any true gamer or record chaser worth their salt knows this and would support the decision.

    Finally, most of us who have chased records know the requirements, we know that recording our performances is extremely important for the purpose of verification. While I understand that there may be some assumed or implied legitimacy from an event that has well recognized members of the community attending it, it should go without saying that recording your performance, regardless of who is there to see it is always essential. Providing recorded proof of performance effectively renders it beyond reproach and will move the community away from the controversies and drama of the past.

    Regardless of the way things used to be done, or have been done in the past, or who held what position and feel they are still an authority on the subject, if TG is to survive and grow and be taken seriously, we have to approach this topic with care and depth.

    Let's be progressive people and get our heads out of the past so we can create a meaningful future for the hobby we all share and love.
    Last edited by Zeno; 08-20-2014 at 09:15 AM.
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  4. 08-20-2014, 11:51 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by datagod View Post
    What I find sad is that two rather special people keep posting on social media how they are "through" with Twin Galaxies and want to distance themselves from it as much as possible yet they keep coming here to post their opinions and stir up trouble. Facebook tirades against Twin Galaxies and gamers in general is disrespectful to say the least. What is your motive? Grandstanding and drama vamping.

    Make up your minds. If you are for the hobby, for the gamers, for Twin Galaxies, then try doing something positive. Critics don't count, and neither do you.

    There was nothing critical in my post. I was merely providing information on the subject of how the side-event scores were tracked at The Kong Off 3 and the chain of events that lead to them not being able to be entered into the database. It is you who is acting in discordance, spreading inaccuracies about my character and my intent, even going so far as to question my right to an opinion on subjects as if I require your permission and favor to make them. As for claims regarding social media, take a good look at your wall lately? You publicly proclaimed me your "enemy", referred to me as a "western radical" and continue to troll me where ever I go on the internet where you can reach me, including here. You're the aggressor, not me.

    I don't know why you do this, or why it's so important for you to vilify me, degrade my reputation in public or attribute anothers post, such as Scott's, to me. His opinions are his own expressed on this forum as are mine. Neither act in conjunction with the other. In fact, the intent and subject matter are entirely different and encompass entirely different perspectives.

    I don't distance myself from Twin Galaxies. My work appears here. I limit my exposure to it and events because of negative actions like yours that occur whenever I poke my head up; i.e. Troll Magnet. I speak to Jace often and have for months even before he purchased Twin Galaxies. How do you think he came in contact with Jourdan? He knows I have the utmost respect for him, and even though we may not agree on all things from time to time, he knows I know Twin Galaxies is in good hands and that I will always support him.

    I find it odd that you equate harassing and bullying people on this forum with "supporting Twin Galaxies". It's even more arcane that you level harsh criticism, inform me that I "don't matter" all the while instructing me and others to "do something positive". You know what is truly sad? Your definition of Unity.
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  5. 08-20-2014, 12:14 PM
    The things you have said in private to me contradict 100% what you post publicly. That is why I don't like you. That is why I blocked you on facebook, and have you on my ignore list here. So much for that I guess. I never mentioned your name, but you are so vain you probably thought that post was about you. Leave me alone please. You are blocked for a reason.
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  6. 08-20-2014, 12:16 PM
    That's funny, I don't see Data mentioning any names, how'd you know it was in reference to you if there is no truth to it Cat?

    Also, if you have a problem with him, why are you creeping his Facebook wall? Perhaps it has to do with the fact that despite your claims on wanting to distance yourself from "trolls", anyone with a modicum of intellect can tell you thrive on it.

    You should save your "woe is me" rants for your Facebook page where the same handful of people can tell you how right you are.

    It's clear the new TG is about being progressive and getting rid of the old drama and those that revel in it, maybe those that seek to do nothing but play martyr and re-hash the same old drama should get their heads out of the past and focus on the future.

    This thread should not derail into the Cat Despira drama hour, Don had a valid question and Jace has a reasonable explanation and as per the norm, it's the same people manufacturing drama where there is none.

    What a shocker.
    Last edited by Zeno; 08-20-2014 at 12:19 PM.
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  7. 08-20-2014, 12:31 PM
    This thread is so emblematic of what's wrong with the community as a whole. Why do people feel the need to hang on to petty grudges? Why is there any need for snide remarks?
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  8. 08-20-2014, 12:35 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by q43 View Post
    1 - "Took me awhile to find some of these answers but here's what I found out."

    2 - "Someone with the ability to get a hold of Catherine DeSpira."

    3 - "The closest thing to a ref on site was an honorary one. Walter Day"

    4 - "Not a problem in this case since there was no ref to begin with."

    5 - "I can't imagine that happening, all of the scores were posted live via several venues and if someone had an issue certainly it would have come up by now."

    6 - "Cat has all the scores."

    7 - "The relaxed approach taken by the last administration may not be appreciated by the current but the fact remains that all the scores in question were officially recognized at one point by Twin Galaxies."

    8 - "To even suggest that adding those "new scores" to the current database: "is a complex issue" brings into question all scores posted by the previous owners. If you don't think they did their due diligence in making sure that all the games were played on the correct settings, and so on then you have to get rid of everything they did."
    Lets take a quick look at this:

    Above statement #1 - The fact that it took you a while to find the answers you posted already supports the notion that it is not a simple matter of just entering scores and it actually requires time and research (complexity) before taking action.

    Above statement #2 - Cat DeSpira is and has been a great contributor to the community in many ways, but as far as I know has never been a ref? So simply taking her personal record of scores that were not expressly handed to her or physically recorded by a sanctioned ref and then given to her for delivery into the TG database could be problematic and it would take time and research to lay out a public and transparent case as to why any delivery from her other than what is described above would be acceptable. Certainly a doable possibility, but again there is complexity and process involved.

    Above statement #3 - Twin Galaxies will of course heavily and seriously consider Walter Day's direct wishes when it comes to this specific issue of the historic acceptability of the Kong Off 3 scores. However, Walter did not ever deliver the scores to TG, and we have never discussed the matter. Again, as part of my original statement that we will look into the matter at the appropriate time, obviously a discussion with Walter would be part of the overall due diligence - however, that discussion will take time and have communication overhead - which further adds support to the basic statement that the Kong Off 3 scores going into the database has complexity and is not a simple matter.

    Above statement #4 - The very statement you make automatically implies complexity in the circumstance. "no ref to begin with" - Really? You can't see some slight challenges with that? Certainly the issue can be looked at and solved - but again, not as simple as 1,2,3...

    Above statement #5 - How can you make that statement when you literally see my basic and simple response "Adding new scores to the database is a complex issue that will be looked at and figured out carefully…" has created an enormous discussion thread with all kinds of concerns? And that was just because I said I would look into it! It's great that you believe that if there was an issue it would have come up by now, that's certainly possible I guess.

    Above statement #6 - See response #2

    Above statement #7 - That may be the case, but since the scores were not entered into the database for whatever reason there is no way for this new Twin Galaxies to know the facts without doing all the proper investigation and research - which it said it would do at the appropriate time - which is what makes the matter complex and not simple.

    Above statement #8 - No it does not and your statement is an enormous leap of logic. You are comparing scores that are not in the database currently, which need to be verified and checked before entry, to scores that are already in the database that have gone through that process. You are trying to make a correlative connection between the two by suggesting that the reason that the Kong Off 3 scores are not being instantly placed into the database is because of some credibility question surrounding the officiating people there. That is grossly inaccurate. It has nothing to do with the credibility of the refs or any of the people involved.

    Let's look at a proposed scenario of "no complexity:"

    TG - "Hey Cat, sorry to bother you, could you please send us the scores you personally recorded for whatever games you have scores for from the Kong Off 3"

    Cat - "Sure, here they are."

    TG - "Great, we just entered them into the database! All good! Thank you!

    Cat - "No problem. Bye!"

    For there to be no complexity at all, the above scenario is literally what you might be suggesting.

    Anything else requires: phone calls, research, triple checking with numerous people who were there, corresponding with the players themselves for each score to be entered, talking with Walter, etc. etc. etc.

    The Twin Galaxies of today is taking all of these matters quite seriously. It can be slow and tedious at times but it will be fair, transparent, logical and comprehensive.

    As I said before and will say again, the Kong Off 3 stuff will be looked into and figured out at the appropriate time. It is a complex matter since there are no records of the performances other than live witness and so we can't just sit down and watch recordings of everything. All of the live witnesses have no ability to enter scores into the database and so those people who do have the authority have to go through the entire process of contacting everyone involved in order to have as much information as possible. Its complicated and takes work. I don't know how else to communicate the matter.

    Hopefully that made sense,
    Jace Hall
    Head Custodian
    www.TwinGalaxies.com
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  9. 08-20-2014, 02:21 PM
    Above statement #1 - It took me awhile because I had to wait for Walter, and Jourdan to get back to me. Still took less than 24 hours.

    Above statement #2 - Cat was the only one writing down scores that I saw at The KO3. She was then given the ok by the owners of TG to post the scores as new records on TG.com.

    Above statement #3 - Walter doesn't know of any of the scores. The only way I could even see this concerning him slightly would be the handful of trading cards he is unable to produce until this is decided.

    Above statement #4 - "You can't see some slight challenges with that?" - I believe that you can challenge whatever you want, it's your ball if you will. You could erase the scoreboard on a whole and start fresh if you wanted. But if you're asking me, I would be completely ok with however the last administration ran itself knowing it had nothing to do with me.

    Above statement #5 - I was saying that the scores wouldn't likely be challenged since most of the players have seen these scores in various forums, social media platforms, and even this site. If there was a typo on score I'm sure it would have come up by now.

    Above statement #7 & 8 - I understand completely your wanting to take every precaution before making a decision. I was just trying to offer my views on the topic, and I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to address so many of my concerns.



    Let's look at a proposed scenario of "no complexity:"

    TG - "Hey Cat, sorry to bother you, could you please send us the scores you personally recorded for whatever games you have scores for from the Kong Off 3"

    Cat - "Sure, here they are."

    TG - "Great, we just entered them into the database! All good! Thank you!

    Cat - "No problem. Bye!"
    the above scenario is literally what I'm suggesting, *this is also very similar to the way I found the scores by the way.


    I can certainly appreciate you wanting to look a little harder at the situation though. I'm sure whatever/ whenever the final decision may be the sky will not fall.
  10. 08-20-2014, 02:50 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by q43 View Post

    the above scenario is literally what I'm suggesting, *this is also very similar to the way I found the scores by the way.


    I can certainly appreciate you wanting to look a little harder at the situation though. I'm sure whatever/ whenever the final decision may be the sky will not fall.
    Believe me, I would love to just be able to do your above suggested scenario. It's a whole lot easier than everything else I've described!

    Unfortunately, TG has to take a very procedural and documented position on adjudication matters, so it is what it is.

    There is no agenda against anything - just trying to go about matters appropriately.
    Jace Hall
    Head Custodian
    www.TwinGalaxies.com
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