Arcade - Pac-Man - Points [Factory Speed] - 3333270 - Jon Stoodley

Is the performance claim below valid?

    This poll is closed
This poll is closed
  1. 01-07-2015, 12:04 PM
    This is a case where we as a community need to decide if we will accept a score without video evidence. As Dave Manning has written in the post above, the video linked is not the game of the score being submitted. To be absolutely clear, I have seen Jon Stoodley play live. I have absolutely no doubt Jon Stoodley achieved the claimed score, but if this score goes through it will be the first under the new TG to be accepted with no video performance, and that will set a huge precedent.
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  2. 01-07-2015, 12:36 PM
    Yeah, I find the submission package here very confusing. The last sentence in the package says "Here is a Youtube link, which shows this particular game in its entirety (in 4 parts)", but the video is from a completely different game.

    It looks like the video and most of the comments relate to generally establishing that John is a very good player and capable of the score he submitted, and then the evidence for the actual score submitted was that it was a live event with witnesses.

    I'm ok with the circumstantial evidence that establishes that John is capable of this score, but I'd like it to be clearer EXACTLY what the evidence is for the PARTICULAR score of 3,333,270 that was submitted before I will vote on this. From what I can tell from this thread it sounds like the evidence presented for this particular score was the statement it was at a large live event, the statement that there were many witnesses (including MRK who posted earlier in this thread), and the TG card picture that references his performance at the Blackpool event where he states in his own words he had a perfect eat but lost a life on board 20.

    I'd really like to see at least some video from the game (really the end of the game would probably be enough for me since Pac Man doesn't really have "bad" settings that could have been used). Any pictures showing the final score, write-ups from the events web page, or additional eyewitness statements would also be helpful.

    -George
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  3. 01-07-2015, 01:04 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by WCopeland View Post
    This is a case where we as a community need to decide if we will accept a score without video evidence. As Dave Manning has written in the post above, the video linked is not the game of the score being submitted. To be absolutely clear, I have seen Jon Stoodley play live. I have absolutely no doubt Jon Stoodley achieved the claimed score, but if this score goes through it will be the first under the new TG to be accepted with no video performance, and that will set a huge precedent.
    It would indeed, though this is not necessarily as bad as it might sound. In my mind, the precedent would be: "If you don't submit a full video, be damn certain that there are hundreds of people present both witnessing and photographing your attempt."

    Also, Jon has indicated that some video may yet surface. Certainly the event is as well-documented as can be.

    Dave
  4. 01-07-2015, 01:35 PM
    Cheers guys
    Of course I understand that the actual submission relates to the -90 point perfect score and that (at the moment) I have not submitted the footage from the ending of the game. There were several guys filming the end (it was announced at the event as it approached, hence the crowd) and a couple of the guys there took good final footage of the game. Like I mentioned, soon as this becomes available, I'll post it up. It was HUGELY disappointing when I found out that my video footage was corrupt ...
    Jon Stoodley
    Highest ever verified 'Golden Age' score - 3,221,000 - June 1983
    Splitscreen 2009 - Funspot XI - 3,227,000
    Perfect Pac Man - Play Margate - 22/08/2015
  5. 01-07-2015, 01:36 PM
    I believe that there are two questions here:

    1) Does Free Play being on affect the validity of this score - NO in my opinion and as exhaustively supported by Matt Osborne in the thread below.

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...Free-Play-quot

    2) Is video a necessary component to legitimize a submission for adjudication. On this question I lean toward saying YES VIDEO IS REQUIRED to receive a "yes" vote for a score. I myself have refrained from submitting my 33 million point Robotron marathon score because I have no video of my performance, even though 100% of the play was streamed via Twitch on Jace Hall's LeetLive channel and numerous people witnessed my play online and in person at MAGFest, including Jace himself. Given all of that "circumstantial" evidence I still strongly believe that video is required. We as players all know that this question will come up. In my case I did not plan to take video because 1) I was playing live and online (and did not realize that Twitch streams were not automatically archived) & 2) TG was not accepting new scores at the time. I hope to submit a video taped (and hopefully much higher) score in conjunction with the upcoming Robotron Tie-Die event on January 30th. I will be sure to archive my play via Twitch AND back it up on youtube.

    I have yet to vote on the Pac-Man score in question in this thread, but am leaning toward logging a "no" unless Jon posts video of the actual game for which he is submitting this score.
    Marine Biologist, Arcade Collector, Outdoor Nut, Amateur Chef
    Robotron 2084, Double Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr Cocktail, Pengo
    Robotron High Scores: Difficulty 5 Marathon Score - 54,144,225; Difficulty 10 Marathon Score - 1,189,850; TGTS Score - 470,975; VKE Score - 620,575
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  6. 01-07-2015, 01:45 PM
    Can I just clarify to the guys who are referring to 'freeplay'.
    This should read FREEHAND, as I do not use patterns up to board 21, then of course I run an old 9th pattern to the split, followed by FREEHAND on 256.
    Jon Stoodley
    Highest ever verified 'Golden Age' score - 3,221,000 - June 1983
    Splitscreen 2009 - Funspot XI - 3,227,000
    Perfect Pac Man - Play Margate - 22/08/2015
  7. 01-07-2015, 02:46 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    Good to see you haven't given up, Jon. Keep at it. :)
    Cheers
    Jon Stoodley
    Highest ever verified 'Golden Age' score - 3,221,000 - June 1983
    Splitscreen 2009 - Funspot XI - 3,227,000
    Perfect Pac Man - Play Margate - 22/08/2015
  8. 01-07-2015, 03:18 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Pacman83 View Post
    Can I just clarify to the guys who are referring to 'freeplay'.
    This should read FREEHAND, as I do not use patterns up to board 21, then of course I run an old 9th pattern to the split, followed by FREEHAND on 256.
    People were talking about "freeplay" because the youtube video that is currently linked to on the first page of your submission has "Free Play" enabled on the machine you played on, meaning no coins need to be inserted. As has now been made clear, that youtube video is from a different game, not for the score that was submitted, so the fact the machine in that video had its dip switches set to "Free Play" is not relevant to this particular score.

    There's been discussion both on this thread, and on other submissions, about whether having dip switches set to "Free Play" on an arcade cabinet should be allowed or not.

    -George
  9. 01-07-2015, 05:19 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterborn2O2P View Post
    I believe that there are two questions here:

    1) Does Free Play being on affect the validity of this score - NO in my opinion and as exhaustively supported by Matt Osborne in the thread below.

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...Free-Play-quot
    Agreed! However, it is again worth noting that free play is not necessarily a factor here anyhow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterborn2O2P View Post
    2) Is video a necessary component to legitimize a submission for adjudication. On this question I lean toward saying YES VIDEO IS REQUIRED to receive a "yes" vote for a score. I myself have refrained from submitting my 33 million point Robotron marathon score because I have no video of my performance, even though 100% of the play was streamed via Twitch on Jace Hall's LeetLive channel and numerous people witnessed my play online and in person at MAGFest, including Jace himself. Given all of that "circumstantial" evidence I still strongly believe that video is required. We as players all know that this question will come up. In my case I did not plan to take video because 1) I was playing live and online (and did not realize that Twitch streams were not automatically archived) & 2) TG was not accepting new scores at the time. I hope to submit a video taped (and hopefully much higher) score in conjunction with the upcoming Robotron Tie-Die event on January 30th. I will be sure to archive my play via Twitch AND back it up on youtube.

    I have yet to vote on the Pac-Man score in question in this thread, but am leaning toward logging a "no" unless Jon posts video of the actual game for which he is submitting this score.
    Generally, I would agree with you, but did you look at the photos? Did you see the hundreds of people watching, not to mention the folks holding video cameras? The TG commemoration of the event? Do you truly and in all honesty believe that Jon DIDN'T get this score? That he somehow cheated without anyone noticing at all?

    Look, I understand the importance of video in score verification, and I agree that games should be available to view whenever possible. That being said, it is possible to take skepticism to an unhealthy extreme.

    Our job is, quite simply, to determine whether or not the score is legitimate. In this case, it would be absurd to argue that Jon didn't get this score. If you disagree, fine, but in this particular circumstance, the "no video" argument is not nearly enough to invalidate this score. No, not even close. If you wish to argue that this score is invalid, you need to come up with a way to explain how over a hundred eyewitnesses are wrong (not to mention the cameras). Perhaps they all formed a conspiracy... or something?

    Dave
  10. 01-07-2015, 05:59 PM
    Dave, where did I state that I believed Jon did not get this score? or that he cheated? or that there is some "conspiracy" afoot to fool those of us participating in the adjudication process? Please re-read my post and let me know if I said any of these things. What I did say is that "On this question I lean toward saying YES VIDEO IS REQUIRED to receive a "yes" vote for a score." and by that I mean ANY score, not just the one under discussion here. Bottom line is that the onus of PROOF is on the player, not the other way around (i.e. it is not the role of the adjudication process to DISPROVE a score submission). By way of example, look at all of the scores that are currently in the database from the 80's. Where are all those witnesses NOW? As a more specific example, look at the top 10 Marathon scores for Robotron. Of those scores, only a SINGLE person listed has come forward in the past 10 years to discuss their play (and they have confirmed that their score was accumulated by stringing multiple "coin drops" together to aggregate a total score from what in essence was several games). It's just this type of ambiguity that creates issues down the road.

    And by extension, where will those hundreds of people who witnessed Jon play his game be in 20 - 30 years from now? Will they be around and/or still active in the scene to confirm that they witnessed his gameplay when the next generation of players wishes to take their shot at the World Record? How can we confirm scores in perpetuity and do away with much of this ambiguity? WITH VIDEO. Given the universal use of camcorders, GoPros, cell phones and what not these days, is there really any excuse not to have at least a few minutes of gameplay recorded for us to review? And for that matter, what constitutes a large enough audience of witnesses to validate a score? 5 people (all potentially friends of the submitting player)? 10 people, 100? Again, more ambiguity.

    Finally, this is a standard (video record of scores required) that I hold MYSELF to. As I mentioned above, I have Robotron scores that were streamed over Twitch and witnessed by hundreds of viewers. However, since I did not have the foresight to tape/archive the performances and thus create a record that I could then bring before the community for adjudication, the burden of proof that lies at my feet cannot be sufficiently met (in my opinion) and thus I did not submit those scores.

    I believe it is imperative that we remove much of the emotion that surrounds this process. I have no issue with Jon. I do not doubt your word or the word of others that support his submission. I did not even state that I was making a "NO" vote in reference to this submission, only that I was leaning in that direction. I simply stated that it is my belief, in this day and age, with ***** and readily available technology at hand, given the history of the scoreboard, that having a video record of score submissions should be required.
    Marine Biologist, Arcade Collector, Outdoor Nut, Amateur Chef
    Robotron 2084, Double Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr Cocktail, Pengo
    Robotron High Scores: Difficulty 5 Marathon Score - 54,144,225; Difficulty 10 Marathon Score - 1,189,850; TGTS Score - 470,975; VKE Score - 620,575
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