Impossible Scores on the Scoreboard

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  1. 03-29-2015, 12:59 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by ssdninja View Post
    "It all sounds so nice and friendly to contact another gamer until you reach one that does not want to be contacted...and then what ? The line has been crossed, it cannot be uncrossed."

    Then... you probably don't contact them again? Pretty simple solution there.


    RTM REPLY - no...it means they should not have been contacted at all. You could very well have a gamer at the receiving end of your inquiry ticked off that their performance is resulting in unwanted personal intrusions...and you may very well have soured their 1st TG submission experience. And for more seasoned gamers with lots of scores under their belt, some might decide not to submit another score if this is what will happen.

    The rule of thumb is that when the action MIGHT result in offending then you do not take that action. That's the simple solution.

    Your solution is more akin to this...a bunch of girls are at a bar on a girls night out and some annoying guys are nearby. The girls want to be left alone but one guy comes up and tries and tries his lines in the hopes of getting a number...and he fails miserably as the girls want to be left alone. To the guy, he figures "oh well, I had to give it a shot"...to the girl she can't wait until you get as far away as possible.

    When in doubt, leave well enough be.
  2. 03-29-2015, 02:07 PM
    Yes, I read what Jace said and his comment, and I disagree with it. I disagreed with a lot of things Twin Galaxies did in the past, I disagree with how things currently are (Even though it is heavily improving). Yes, he bought TG, yes he may do whatever he wants with it. But when the site is for a community of people, they should have a saying in how things are handled. Otherwise it will be a nice dictatorship (Suck as "Nazi Germany" that was mentioned in the Glitches thread). The idea of not being allowed to contact a runner about a run is stupid, and I would never go by it despite what the rules suggest. If some official rule would be stated on Twin Galaxies, it would have to be "You are not allowed to talk to other members on the site." Because how would you seperate all the questions you may ask someone? Looking up a person's phone number or address has nothing at all to do with Twin Galaxies.

    I wish Twin Galaxies to become a better place than it used to. I want it to be community driven. Sure, there needs to be someone making the decisions in the end. But those decisions should be based on what the community wants, not solely by the "dictator" of the site. Because then the site will end up being ignored by the community, people will leave it, people won't join it. I'm normally being part of these discussions to try to help you as a site, so that the hate from other communities (Myself included) would cease, that we can all be friends, that we all are struggling for the same goal, that we can work together. Like if you wish to ever be respected among speedrunners, you must follow the way we do things. We are the players, we are the community. You can't go on your own road, ignoring the rest of the world and just bragging about being "Official" won't help you. You'll still be made fun of, you'll still be ignored by the dedicated players. Stop acting like fools.

    Sorry for the hate, but I mean it.
  3. 03-29-2015, 03:04 PM
    Chances are that Jace paid a lot more than a dollar for TG. As such it's his show.

    He has presented himself as someone that wants to be both fair and accommodating YET he has his own vision for the "big picture". Bottom line is that not everything Jace says of does we all will agree with, but thus far the overwhelming majority we do.

    As for myself and anyone else, if we wanted to have a TG that was everything that we envisioned, then we certainly could have opened up our checkbooks. But we did not...he did. Done deal.

    Jace strikes me as someone that values input. However he also likes to gauge all the facts before making some final decisions. Therefore, at this early junction...like it or not, disagree with it or not...his preliminary request is for us NOT to contact other gamers regarding the concept of "score challenges"...period.

    You mention the speed run community, and TG has dealt with such communities in the past, such as the "Mario Kart 64" and "F-ZeroX" communities. Both established their own rules which TG adopted as they blended well with existing TG ideology and rules already in place. But certain speed run considerations do not blend as easily. It's an apples to oranges situation there.

    Back to the adjudication process. If speed run community encourages gamers to intrusively pester other gamers for explanations then so be it...their show, their business. TG does not have to adopt the same policy should TG decide to house such scores within the TG database. And should TG ever decide on "100% glitch runs" and if that decision differs from speed run community, then so be it...TG is a different entity and it is within it's right...whether you agree with it or not...to determine policy for its own community.

    Disagree that decisions need to be based on what the community wants. THAT does not always happen in a democracy or a republic, even...in theory it does, but in practice not always the case. It's like Jace's decision for full verification as a member in order to gain certain types of access. Like it or not that is his prerogative as owner of the company. Same for his rules in the ban process. Same for his rules on the pass/fail algorithem thresholds per score submission...there is no need for him to disclose the algorithem to the gaming community. The public in this case does not have the right to know...the information is privileged and confidential.

    Some "sites" may not like certain elements of TG...again, so be it. Other sites have less stringent submission requirements. That's their business.

    Back to the main discussion of contacting other gamers. It all comes down to the current instructions as stated by Jace that we should NOT contact other gamers for score challenge purposes, or however his exact wording was (Page 8 Post 72 this thread).
  4. 03-29-2015, 06:05 PM
    I personally feel that Guinness should use several official entities and not solely rely on TG. TG`s specialty is classic arcade and older scorebased titles. There are websites dedicated to tracking specific games, and really those should also be used. TG cannot physically track everything with accuracy, its impossible for any one site. Which is why i feel tg should partner with other sites, or other sites should contact guinness.

    Glitch and glichless speedruns have their merits, but the majority of players compete on glitch categories. To dismiss this is an issue. The general public does not understand or really care about this distinction. They think all runs that are skillful, simply put, are hacked`. Where the competition is, you will find the best runners, and this standard is glitch runs.

    TG can track everything, but there are clearly categories that are not its specialty. There is no way any one site can cover everything...many. sites should partner with tg of guinness, but it likely wont happen. That said,
    I like to destroy games... especially the ones with Mario in them.
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  5. 03-29-2015, 06:51 PM
    Many years back Walter had an idea...that TG should track pretty much everything. Video game scores, PvP ladder match outcomes, skee-ball tournament scores, and the list went on and on. He came into NYC with Bill and we went to a place that housed archives of old issues of "Vending Times" dating back to the 30's. I told him that we had enough problems tracking everything that we tried to as it was...if we got into all that other stuff we would dig ourselves a hole that we could never crawl out from. Well that "vision" lasted about 3 days...all the bookmarked pages at that place were never copied...it was a 3 day waste of time.

    TG should have the outcomes of certain offshoot gaming circles but not have to authenticate the scores. That would work. After all, why recreate someone else's wheel ?

    As for any scores from such sites being "impossible", the original topic of this thread, then it would stand to reason that gamers should let the originating entity deal with that.
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  6. 03-29-2015, 07:22 PM
    Ideally, everyone would submit to TG and we would have a complete list for every game. Since I doubt there will be partnerships made any time soon, we should work towards accomodating all scores in a reasonable manner. Once glitch track variations are made, there would be no excuse not to submit speedruns to tg, and then its on the player to make that choice.

    I think genuinely friendly conversation does no harm. One cant assume that a player is cheating, as there can be many factors in scores on the scoreboard. I have contacted players not to declare a challenge, but curiosity of a score or just a congratulatory remark as a competitor.
    I like to destroy games... especially the ones with Mario in them.
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  7. 03-29-2015, 09:12 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by andrewg View Post
    . There is no way any one site can cover everything...
    Oh we are just getting started sir...

    Baby steps.

    We are thinking big, and certainly want to be inclusive. No one over here is dismissing anything. Rest assured. Don't underestimate the new era! Plenty of surprises lay ahead! :)
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  8. 03-29-2015, 09:14 PM
    I think it's looking pretty solid so far.
  9. 03-29-2015, 09:34 PM
    I have a lot of faith in you, Jace, you have been doing great so far. Keep it up :).
  10. 03-29-2015, 11:04 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Tompa View Post
    Yes, I read what Jace said and his comment, and I disagree with it. I disagreed with a lot of things Twin Galaxies did in the past, I disagree with how things currently are (Even though it is heavily improving). Yes, he bought TG, yes he may do whatever he wants with it. But when the site is for a community of people, they should have a saying in how things are handled. Otherwise it will be a nice dictatorship (Suck as "Nazi Germany" that was mentioned in the Glitches thread). The idea of not being allowed to contact a runner about a run is stupid, and I would never go by it despite what the rules suggest. If some official rule would be stated on Twin Galaxies, it would have to be "You are not allowed to talk to other members on the site." Because how would you seperate all the questions you may ask someone? Looking up a person's phone number or address has nothing at all to do with Twin Galaxies.

    I wish Twin Galaxies to become a better place than it used to. I want it to be community driven. Sure, there needs to be someone making the decisions in the end. But those decisions should be based on what the community wants, not solely by the "dictator" of the site. Because then the site will end up being ignored by the community, people will leave it, people won't join it. I'm normally being part of these discussions to try to help you as a site, so that the hate from other communities (Myself included) would cease, that we can all be friends, that we all are struggling for the same goal, that we can work together. Like if you wish to ever be respected among speedrunners, you must follow the way we do things. We are the players, we are the community. You can't go on your own road, ignoring the rest of the world and just bragging about being "Official" won't help you. You'll still be made fun of, you'll still be ignored by the dedicated players. Stop acting like fools.

    Sorry for the hate, but I mean it.
    I finally have a chance to sit down and provide some clarity here. I have read the entire thread and understand the different points of view being expressed. My perspective on this is very straightforward and clear, so please allow me to add some guidance to this overall issue and then we can all take next steps from there.

    Previous eras of Twin Galaxies had a formalized "Score Challenge Policy" (you can read all about it here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/archive/.../t-110960.html ) - This policy was based on the existence of referees, a TG board of directors, etc. It was within this policy that a gamer might be contacted, asked to prove a performance, etc.

    This previous score challenge policy is not applicable at all in this new era of TG and is now therefore completely and utterly defunct. You should consider the previous policy dead from this moment on.

    The procedure that is replacing the old process is forthcoming. It will not include a need to contact the holder of a record in question for any reason. If there is a score in the database you believe should be removed, your effort will revolve around providing compelling and persuasive hard evidence to support your challenge. Conjecture will not cut it. The system we are implementing is designed to place structure around the process. Getting a score removed from the database will be possible, but never simple or easy.

    Now with that being said, let's move the discussion over to the whole concept of contacting TG members and what is appropriate and what is not as far as TG is concerned.

    Certainly, TG wants the community to socialize. Everyone can and should learn from each other, share with each other to the extent that they are comfortable with, and support each other while helping to build a great community. Obviously, one large point of participating in the TG community and submitting scores is to receive recognition and value from score performance achievements. So making friends, and developing connections is encouraged here and definitely a natural outcropping of any community oriented site.

    Is the idea of TG members reaching out to each other either publicly or privately to ask questions or gain insight intrinsically abhorrent? No, of course not. However, there is a clear line of professionalism, respect and courtesy that should always be present between TG community members and it should always be maintained in any correspondence allowed within the site.

    And that is the key phrase here: "WITHIN THE SITE."

    As you know, the Twin Galaxies website has three primary ways that its members can contact each other:

    Public forum posts on the site
    Posts in adjudication threads on the site
    Private messages (your Twin Galaxies message board inbox on the site)

    Unless a member personally knows another member outside of the Twin Galaxies website, all TG community members should only reach out to other members via the above listed methods.

    By keeping the communication here, Twin Galaxies can monitor the public messages for appropriateness, and individual members can set their personal private message settings to accept messages from others or not.
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    This is the policy. It is set up this way to encourage member communication and to discourage potential member abuse or unwanted member communication on an individual basis.

    When someone joins the TG community, they are indicating that they are interested in participating HERE. They are indicating that their expectations are set so that Twin Galaxies related discussions will occur HERE. It could be very annoying to a member that signed up to TG to suddenly have some random person sending them a Facebook message or personal e-mail about something related to the website without their permission. In fact, depending on the person contacted, they might actually become frightened. Nobody wants that, believe me.

    So, to reiterate:

    Contacting another TG member that you do not know personally is fine as long as it is done within the confines of the controlled Twin Galaxies website using the tools provided. Do it. Socialize. Ask questions if you want. Participate and build friendships. Gain knowledge. Great.

    CONTACTING ANOTHER TG MEMBER THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW PERSONALLY IS NOT OK IF YOU DO IT OUTSIDE OF THE TWIN GALAXIES WEBSITE.

    This means:
    No unsolicited Facebook messages
    No
    unsolicited direct e-mails
    No unsolicited phone calls
    No unsolicited snail-mail letters.
    No unsolicited personal doorstep visits.
    Just don't do it.


    Obviously, the reality is that people have the right to do whatever they want to. Twin Galaxies does not presume to control people. However, if a member chooses to contact another Twin Galaxies member that they do not already know personally "off-site," they are placing their membership at risk. I will explain:

    A member might reach out "off site" to someone they don't know, and the person they reached out to might wind up being fine with it. No big deal. Great.

    However, the risk is if the person that is contacted is NOT fine with it. All that person will need to do is report to TG that member who tried to contact them "off site" and after an investigation that member may receive a 6 month ban and a complete flushing of all their earned submission points.

    So, Twin Galaxies strongly recommends that members keep their introductory messages to other TG members confined to TG. Once a relationship is established and both members are ok with it, off-site communication is a non-issue.

    Please keep in mind that the goal here is to prevent harassment, or even the perception of potential harassment. Many of you know that in the past, harassment has been a problem in the community from time to time. I'm sure that the entire community would like to keep that to a minimum. People are different. Some are more concerned than others. Twin Galaxies needs to have a policy that is sensitive to that. I'm sure you all can understand.

    As a final word, Twin Galaxies wants to be inclusive. While it is important that these policies are made clear, please understand that I have a lot of faith in each and every member of the community and believe that the overall intention that people have with each other here is primarily positive and in the pursuit of making the Twin Galaxies scoreboard the most legit thing ever. There is nothing but appreciation on the Twin Galaxies side of the equation. Everyone here is making this site a better place each and every day.

    My promise to you as Head Custodian is that I will always be as logical and open about issues as humanly possible. I am no "dictator" and Twin Galaxies is not an extension of any need of my ego. I have nothing to personally prove to anyone by acting like some kind of power-tripping clown throwing rules here and there.

    I have taken the mantle to help lead this organization for the sole purpose of helping it to fulfill its full potential. I have lived my entire life as a gamer / video game enthusiast. I'm old and crusty so I was there from the beginning. I have played video games, made hugely successful video games, given hundreds of people careers in video game making, produced video game music and produced shows about video games / culture. It has been and continues to be my life. Beyond the scores and the competitive arena, Twin Galaxies also represents the idea that a life lived in the pursuit of video game culture, playing, accomplishment, and friendship is a 100% valid lifestyle choice and very meaningful in this world - and I am focused on helping to amplify and expand the understanding of that meaning worldwide so that we may all be even more recognized and regarded with the love, care and respect that we all deserve from society at large.

    I think that together we can do this. Obviously I can't do it all on my own - nor would I want to.

    The accomplishments that are submitted here are as worthy as any sport achievement.

    I hope it all made sense.
    Jace Hall
    Head Custodian
    www.TwinGalaxies.com
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