Arcade - Mappy - Points - 2,313,890 - mike kasper

Is the performance claim below valid?

    This poll is closed
This poll is closed
  1. 09-10-2015, 05:28 PM
    Congratulations on an incredible game. I really wish this had been done on an unmodified machine meaning the original program was modified. I was going to vote accept but after reading the specs mod for this I can't accept it. The JROK add on indeed did swap out the original mappy ROMs which is just not allowed. If it's a different kit that keeps the original ROMs then I will be happy to accept this performance.
  2. 09-10-2015, 07:06 PM
    Ah, is this the page you studied?
    http://www.jrok.com/sohs/savehs.html

    I have never fully researched this particular bit but indeed it seems to suggest rom alterations.
    Logically it would seem if game play isn't altered it would be of no consequence but I am willing to go with what fits best in the big picture for TG.

    RTM or Barthax would you mind outlining the logic of this in the overall TGIS ?

    If this is a no fly then I am willing to donate points toward a variation score track to allow hiscore rom hacks as it is the way of the future for arcade owners.
    Are you inspired to find the joy in gaming?

    TG employee (82-84)
    robotron2084guidebook.com/
  3. 09-10-2015, 07:50 PM
    A few thoughts, in no particular order...

    POINT (1) - I took a look at the "Mappy" installation and instructions, the changes made. Some of what is mentioned here is beyond the understanding of your average gamer. You have to realize this. And if it is expected to fully understand what you are adjudicating, then these "variations" will put those who do not fully understand it into a position of either abstaining or voting in ignorance. Additionally, if someone is voting just because a few other people affirm that all is technically well, then they are voting based in part on the word of others and not solely on their own experience. Research is fine, but when you do not fully understand the research then you are basically jumping on the bandwagon.

    POINT (2) - for those who remember, I actually suggested many years back how wonderful it would be for someone to modify the digital displays on some titles to avoid needless roll-over or other score-related issues. Part of my suggestions included "Star Wars" which freezes at wave 99 for some moronic reason when the score rolls at 100M which is well past that point. However, in that era, modifications were no longer the original and we kept that debate's outcome to TG maintaining the purity of the database. It was around the time that the DDK debate was taking place.

    When "policies" change in the here and now without knowing or understanding why they were in place to begin with, a slippery slope begins and one "change" can quickly become a second, a third and beyond in terms of policy..and then you truly have a bad situation where apples-to-oranges score comparisons will exist.

    POINT (3) - I would propose for sake of the sanctity of the scoreboard to have a segregated platform created for "Modified ROMs" with each title contained within including a description of the specific boardset(s) accepted, and the caveat that while TG cannot guarantee identical technical gameplay as compared to the arcade original boardset, sufficiently large members of the gaming community wish to allow scores to be contested on this boardset.

    This way there is a complete and accurate segregation of submission standards and players can, if they choose to do so, compare arcade original scores versus those on "modified" ROMs.

    POINT (4) - someone mentioned that eventually there will be less and less "originals"...that may be true but it is no reason to start co-mingling unlike boardsets, TG already segregates MAME and there was also issue as to whether "UltraCade" should be tracked at all, at one point. There will always be such discussions as new things replace old. MAME itself may one day have a major new competitor. Someone may buy out all the old ROMs and start releasing newly created versions of the old classics.

    POINT (5) - TG already segregates "anniversary edition" releases of some arcade classics...so why co-mingle modified boards ? Every TG decision needs to be in line with all previous decisions else an inconsistent set of rules will lead to major problems and unresolved debates.

    Those who remember from years back about the "5+1" decision on "Pacman" will know how much of a problem that was...it was an incongruous decision solely made to mollify the concerns of THREE (3) people out of the thousands of arcade enthusiasts who were members of TG. That one decision shows you the folly of inconsistency. And there were more such as the endless debate over whether hunting command ships in "Asteroids" should be banned as a leeching tactic or not.

    When decision-making and policy is inconsistent that hurts the TG gaming community as a whole, and in some cases is a major disservice to gamers of yesteryear who dutifully constrained themselves to the policies of that era.

    POINT (6) - take the rules for Major League Baseball pitching wins. Decades ago, even more than a century ago, pitchers got a "win" from pitching a complete game. It is almost unfair that in the here and now a pitcher can throw for just a couple of innings and still get credited with a win. Same for highest stats in a season, comparing the here-and-now 162 game season to what I think used to be just 156 games at some point and maybe less.

    When rules and conditions change the scoring must be kept segregated, plain and simple. Let people compare them visually if they wish to do so, and debate the validity of combining the two, but they MUST be kept separate. The last thing you want is an era of "asterisk scores" in the TG database.
  4. 09-10-2015, 07:51 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post

    To the gamer I have quoted...once again, you may not like some of the decisions of TG-of-old, but before you universally pan them, know what you are talking about first.
    By definition, lumping all save kits as unacceptable with one shady unclear guess that it might make a difference is by definition ignorant. As a matter of fact, the current Asteroids WR (played live and streamed from my living room) as well as many well documented asteroids scores were done on HEAVILY modified hardware/software.

    The beauty in this new system where we have evidence for EVERYONE to scrutinize is that if some day there is a difference found we can address it when we know it. We dont have to just guess anymore. The guys doing these modifications take extra care to make sure they only modify what needs to be modified to make these usability upgrades possible.

    -Ken
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  5. 09-10-2015, 07:52 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by 1500points View Post
    If this is a no fly then I am willing to donate points toward a variation score track to allow hiscore rom hacks as it is the way of the future for arcade owners.


    RTM REPLY - good idea...I'll donate my own submission points as well for the establishment of an entire new platform just for such modified ROMs/boards.
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  6. 09-10-2015, 08:04 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Scoundrl View Post
    By definition, lumping all save kits as unacceptable with one shady unclear guess that it might make a difference is by definition ignorant.


    RTM REPLY - Ken, unsure if you were here for the 2000-2006 era, but this statement is unfounded. It was not a matter of "ignorance"...it was a matter of preserving the integrity of the scoreboard. If you can't see or understand that I do not know how else to explain.

    The entire issue of hacked ROMs reached a crisis point with the discovery that a recognized TG record was accomplished on such a boardset, and not only that but a related score as well.

    It is not truly "ignorance" when I tell you that no TG staffer of that era, or TG technical expert, was able to adequately and definitively show beyond all doubt that the modified ROMsets...as described by their designer...played in ALL respects 100% identical to the original.

    No one at TG had the expertise to, for example, test the game speed of the two different "Asteroids" boards nor did we have the expertise to determine whether the differences between DK, DK Jr and Double DK were strictly limited to the saved score and the sounds.

    It's like the problem discovered years back with a certain cache of arcade titles that some dummy made the monumentally stupid decision to replace a certain crystal in which nominally affected the clock speed of any title that this was done for. In HIS eyes the difference was "too small/negligible" but no one can be definitively sure of that, especially in some pattern-based games. Sure, if a pattern breaks then the answer is yes, but with clock speed determining enemy behavior capacity such as cornering, speed to shoot at you, etc, even a 0.05% change CAN lead to someone taking advantage of this depending on the title.

    You mention the beauty of everyone scrutinizing scores, but NOT everyone, by any means, has the technical expertise to make such definitive decisions. And I am willing to bet in the scenarios that I mentioned far less than point one percent of all gamers could which is not many at all.

    You said that the guys making these changes "take extra care"...I am sorry but I cannot so naively make an assessment like that, not without definitive and empirical proof, otherwise you are placing the integrity of the scoreboard into the affirmations of people who make money on the marketability of their product, and they are most definitely "interested third parties" when it comes to this.
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  7. 09-10-2015, 08:12 PM
    Just because noone at TG has the expertise does not mean noone does. The JROK berzerk board was tested to levels no human could ever measure and is a 100% accurate representation of game as designed and intended. It is well documented. Again I assert, unless someone can say that modifying a game to save scores has any impact on game play (everyone has access to this kit as its free and readily available) then you cannot just call it bad. The game still played 100% true to the makers design and specs. Any other 'what if' to me is completely and totally irrelevant.
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  8. 09-10-2015, 08:18 PM
    This score will stand up to any evidence based scrutiny. Anything less should be dismissed for what it is, bunk.
  9. 09-10-2015, 08:24 PM
    While this isn't related to arcade specifically, we've also seen some submissions done on the Everdrive Flash Cart for the NES platform and they've been accepted. Can we know for sure if roms being flashed are identical to original? No. Does this encourage more submissions? Absolutely, especially when it comes to rare expensive carts that are basically impossible to find.

    Again, all the evidence will be available for people to analyze and make a decision... (hence the full complete video of gameplay) Observe the game play, see if there's any differences. If there is, (besides the high score saving), then obviously you ban the use of high score save kits from that particular track.
    Craig Rout Gallant

    Current verified TG WRs: 58

    My Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/CraigARG
    MAME World Records channel: http://www.youtube.com/MAMEWorldRecords
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  10. 09-10-2015, 08:32 PM
    I will be honest i dont know much about the technical aspects. but i do know this i did all my practice and patterning on my mame which is the same romsets as a cabinet ,and the patterns and play were exactly the same when played on the cabinet ! hope this helps in your decision. :) MIKE KASPER ( hopefully your MAPPY world champ )
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