M.A.M.E. - Track & Field - Points - 91,800 - Brian Woodward

Is the performance claim below valid?

    This poll is closed
This poll is closed
  1. 10-22-2015, 04:22 AM
    Easy reject here also. With the potential for cheating so high this is a game where seeing the technique is critical. George is right, this one is held to a higher standard. Show a little of how you hit the buttons and this may make it past but I really doubt it will with just the inp.

    -Ken
  2. 10-22-2015, 04:27 AM
    Well, this is an interesting thread!
    First of all, well done on getting a 2.52 on high jump. First time I've seen it done.

    I have never diagreed with anything George has ever said. He really knows what he's talking about. He is very fair also.
    And after reading this thread, I still don't!
    However, I would come down on the side of not treating this score in the same way as if he broke the record. Sounds like he is maybe re-learning the game after a long time off. Which is why some may say he learned too quickly? But we must treat all scores the same.
    I see nothing wrong so far.
    Now, the only goals I never achieved on T&F is the long jump easter egg and 2.52 on high jump. As far as I knew, WolfMAME will detect auto fire if used. Hell, I've seen 10 scores of Saulo disqualified for using it, I thought it was clear. Now George says it is not. This will make judging even more confusing.
    I never have wanted to see anyone's layout or hands before for MAME, but now I do! lol :) not to judge, but out of curiosity.
    So, my final thought is this:
    If you can beat me on high jump, how can you fail to beat my other events? High jump is the hardest for most. I always thought I could just not run fast enough to get 2.52.
    I never even saw Hector do it on video, and he is King of the world for speed.
    It should be hard for you too. Maybe it was your best event from back then?
    Was this much scrutiny given to Tommy's 1st. place score? I was not here back then...
    Boasting the largest collection of pac-man related games, hacks and clones on all formats:
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLLa2-_P3XLmIPI0mw7krssgY8MYXKtfiU[/URL]

    BOMB JACK tournament record beaten with 1 life:
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWXxHNjy7QQ[/URL]

    Learn to play BOMB JACK playlist:
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwXnoZprGXY&list=PLE9C85CF2496AF1BC&index=2[/URL]

    Only gamer to get extra man on 1st. floor on Kung Fu Master:
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_mkh-jeIJo[/URL]
    Likes CaptainJivePants liked this post
  3. 10-22-2015, 06:34 AM
    Given the information now I feel I need to vote reject. The stuff being asked isn't hard its simply how did you press the buttons. Using autofire on a controller or externally is not going to be 100% detected here and you already mentioned you have some custom setup so given the analysis from the playback it sure looks like autofire or rapid fire is being used. Gotta be a reject if that is the case. Thos is always the concern with mame submissions at some level ESPECIALLY with this title. I've used the run like hell cheat and gotten stupid scores and I'm pretty good at T&F myself. High jump is the only event I suck at or I would have a huge score just sayin' :)
  4. 10-22-2015, 07:26 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by kernzyp View Post
    Well, this is an interesting thread!
    First of all, well done on getting a 2.52 on high jump. First time I've seen it done.

    I have never diagreed with anything George has ever said. He really knows what he's talking about. He is very fair also.
    And after reading this thread, I still don't!
    However, I would come down on the side of not treating this score in the same way as if he broke the record. Sounds like he is maybe re-learning the game after a long time off. Which is why some may say he learned too quickly? But we must treat all scores the same.
    I see nothing wrong so far.
    Now, the only goals I never achieved on T&F is the long jump easter egg and 2.52 on high jump. As far as I knew, WolfMAME will detect auto fire if used. Hell, I've seen 10 scores of Saulo disqualified for using it, I thought it was clear. Now George says it is not. This will make judging even more confusing.
    I never have wanted to see anyone's layout or hands before for MAME, but now I do! lol :) not to judge, but out of curiosity.
    So, my final thought is this:
    If you can beat me on high jump, how can you fail to beat my other events? High jump is the hardest for most. I always thought I could just not run fast enough to get 2.52.
    I never even saw Hector do it on video, and he is King of the world for speed.
    It should be hard for you too. Maybe it was your best event from back then?
    Was this much scrutiny given to Tommy's 1st. place score? I was not here back then...
    Just a personal story here but when I was at Banning I played Robotron for the first time posted like 430k in the first hour of me playing it. Mark Hoff said it was an incredible score for just starting and had assumed I was coming back to the game after a long period previous practice. The thing is I like twin-stick shooters so the skill set there carried over to Robotron fairly well, so it's perfectly possible to have an affinity for games that call for similar skills.

    Not saying anything about validity or anything here, just wanted to point out that sometimes people can be way good at a title seemingly too fast but there is often a reason for it.
    Likes bensweeneyonbass, Barthax, Desidious liked this post
  5. 10-22-2015, 08:13 AM
    It's very likely this score would not be accepted on MARP, and as such I see no reason why it should be accepted here. Rejected.
  6. 10-22-2015, 08:17 AM
    First of all, well done on getting a 2.52 on high jump. First time I've seen it done.
    Thank you, that means a lot coming from you , even if you still have doubts.
    I had no idea that I would get lucky and stick that jump.
    Yes, I was trying to do my best, as we all do, but I was unaware of this height being something special.
    As I told you before, I was imagining that you could do better than that at the time I made the jump, since you had better scores in the other events.
    Had I known this height was this special, I would have surely choked under the pressure.

    He really knows what he's talking about. He is very fair also.
    I don't doubt the expertise of anyone here, but I will have to disagree about his being 'fair'.

    "When I do an arcade or console track, then I will submit a video per rules."

    became...

    "I may provide a video at some indeterminate point in the future"

    Rewording someone's statement when quoting them is not really fair.
    While it may mean essentially the same thing, it skews the tone and misrepresents what was actually said, which is not fair.
    He did this on more than one occasion.

    It's okay though, because I am not familiar with the history of submissions here, so if this caused suspicion and doubt before even watching it then I understand.
    However, it seems a few people came here to reject it regardless of what is/was/will be presented.
    I mean no disrespect, but those views appear to be biased, thus unfair.


    If you can beat me on high jump, how can you fail to beat my other events?
    If you can beat me in the other events, then how can you fail at the high jump? LOL
    I was trying to beat your other events, believe me. :P
    I got lucky to get a little extra speed on that jump and maintain the timing of the angle.
    You know as well as I do that one little slip up makes a world of difference in this game, and that we have to try and try again to nail it. (I do anyway)
    I am not good enough to give the exact same performance every time,close maybe, but nowhere close to being as precise or consistent as I want to be.
    If I were that good, it would only being analyzed as being a computer doing it, and that is almost what is happening here, so thanks for the compliments guys.


    My own curiosity, having watched Hec's videos, is how you keep up the rapidity of buttons 1 & 3 while holding button 2: there's no hint at a break in the rapidity of 1 & 3 during long jump and javelin.
    I have never analyzed my own performance to the extent that you guys are, so this precision is news to me.
    I strive for perfection but thought I was a lot further than you guys are suggesting.
    Once I did remember that you have to keep running after jumping, then I kept practicing running all the way through without stopping.
    Of course this it is not easy to do, and I am not as good at it as I want to be, and I have a technique that works great and I don't want to share it because it is the only thing that will separate me from the rest.
    Barthaxs' happens to be the only point that I can say is a valid argument and should cause doubt, and even from me if I were reviewing instead of submitting.
    Too bad Hector doesn't do MAME, because I am sure his timing is better than mine, and an analysis of his alternating pattern would probably appear more computer generated than mine.

    If you do not have damn good timing in alternating those key presses, then you can't get good speed up.
    That is the nature of this game, and we all know it,
    So, here is a news flash for you all... anyone who does score high enough to be in the top 5 in this game is going to have similar patterns when looking at those key press presses.
    It is ridiculous to expect a world class performance to be grossly flawed, so what were you expecting from a score in the top 5?

    I've used the run like hell cheat and gotten stupid scores and I'm pretty good at T&F myself. High jump is the only event I suck at or I would have a huge score just sayin'
    I still don't know what that is or how to do it, and I do not want to know.
    But, let me ask you this, did you make the high jump while cheating?

    If you are good at the game and were using cheats and still couldn't do it, then that is your basis for suspecting me of cheating?

    This is what this really boils down to, the "if I can't do it, then nobody can" attitude.
    If that were the case, then we would all be tied, and first place would also be last, because we would all have the same performance.

    What hurts most is knowing that Paul could make this jump also, and that my score is going wasted until someone else does make it.
    Once he nails a 2.53 then all this will be forgotten, so I hope he does it soon.
    I am confident that he or Hector could nail this 2.52 meters.

    I know that I am new here, but it seems like even trying for 1st is unthinkable if the whole forum already has it decided as who is best in the world and who is not before they even play.
    None of you have ever seen me play, and that is why you doubt me, and that is okay.
    I was never fortunate enough to be on the scene in my prime, and that is the only reason my scores are not here already.
    Go ahead and reject away if you want to, and do it without considering the only evidence offered, which is acceptable for a submission via the rules.

    I followed the rules.
    This is my best performance so far.
    I do strive for perfection and push myself to my limits.
    Any good performance of this game will have equally good timing for the run speeds.
    You can't get good speed without it, so why is having good timing on a good score so unbelievable?
    Again, I have never looked at data representing my key presses, so my precision or lack of it is unknown to me.
    However, I will say this, if I had been evaluating such things, then the data would probably look worse to you because I am sure it would have improved my game further and make it look even more like a computer auto fire did it.

    You guys should be leery of a new guy with a good score, but please don't be hating on me thinking I am a cheater based soley on suspicion.

    @ Barthax
    Thank you for the in depth evaluation.
    While it only helps to cause more doubt, it does at least offer some basis for the doubt other than the "he can't do that if so and so can't".
    I have a technique that works great for me and I don't want to share it because that is the only thing that makes my performance better than the average player.
    That is like asking the guy in 1st place tell me his secrets to gaming so that I can go and beat his records using his own methods.
    That to me, that is ridiculous.

    I can relate now to Daniel wanting to walk away from his submission, and I regret more having my ignorance of the acceptable initials cause any trouble for him.
    Even if this gets rejected, I will hold no ill feelings and hope you guys don't either.
    Getting a spot on the leaderboard is a big deal to me, and for the right reasons, but it is not as important for me to be there as it seems for you to not have me there.
    Whether it is rejected or accepted, it doesn't change the fact that I made the jump, and that I did it following the rules.
    I totally understand your skepticism, but I am not going to demonstrate my technique.
  7. 10-22-2015, 08:25 AM
    It is unfortunate how technical details become personal in tgsap.
    The reject, as Wes so bluntly states it above, is about the details.
    I have voiced my concerns in the past how that label comes off rude for tgsap which is trying to grow, but anyway...

    Although, you are new here it is noteworthy that Hector as the T&F expert and champ showed up.
    He has not been above scrutiny himself and rose to the occasion by doing a tutorial on this topic.

    Hopefully, you will reconsider adding some extra evidence to meet the expert communities curiosities, but if not hopefully no hard feelings. I can see why you would perceive that only inp is needed per general guidelines but this tgsap thing is open ended based on valid voter requests
    Are you inspired to find the joy in gaming?

    TG employee (82-84)
    robotron2084guidebook.com/
  8. 10-22-2015, 08:41 AM
    I'm just going to leave this here, you guys can make of it what you wish.

    The 100m race lasted 480 frames, and the inputs registered are as follows:
    --------333--113-13-3113-13-13-13-113-133-13133-13-13-113-13
    3-133-1-133-13-133-13-13-113-1--133-1-3-1-3-1-3-11-3-1--1-3-
    1-3-1-3-13-113-13-13-113-1-3-133-1-3-1-3-1--113-1-3-113-13-1
    -3-113-13-13-113-1-3-11-3-1-3-13-13-113-113-1-3-113-1131-3-1
    13-133-1-3-113-13-13-113-113-1-3-133-1-3-1--1-3-11-3-1-3-1-3
    -13-113113--133-1-3-113-133-1-313-113-113-1-3-13-113-11-133-
    1-3-113-113-133-1-311-3-1-3-13-13-113-113-13-1-3-133-13-113-
    113-11313-13-133-1-3-13-1133-1--113-11-3-1-3-13-133--13113-1

    There may be some errors in there - I've tried to report as accurately as I can at 3am. Hyphens represent no input detected on that frame, and I guess consecutive frames with the same number can be interpreted as a single button "press". Note that there were no frames during this race with simultaneous inputs of 1 & 3.

    I may also dissect the other events eventually, but I have to be up again in about 4 hours to drive the kids to school...
    Thanks Conjured Entertainment thanked this post
  9. 10-22-2015, 08:56 AM
    The reject, as Wes so bluntly states it above, is about the details.
    Actually, the only detail he seemed to mention was that TG submissions should be judged based on the outcome (or anticipated outcome) of the judgement from an outside authority.
    No offense, but that was the only remark here that made me uncomfortable about the review process at TG.
    The system is flawed enough with the 'in the click' factor that this voting mechanism creates, but suggesting that would be outside influences take precedence over the submission here is disturbing.
    I had and have no intention of submitting to MARP, because I respect the history of TG and see them as the official scorekeepers.
    Maybe MARP has a similar voting system (maybe with the same voters too), I don't know, but rejecting this on a probability of a scenario that most likely won't take place is very strange to me. (especially when that rejection could be just as biased)

    You rules require the INP, and that was provided.
    If what is required is not good enough, then why should I think that anything else would be.
    What would come next? What type plastic are the buttons made of? Do they allow static electricity to fire the buttons? Did you rub a balloon on your hair to cause the static electricity?
    I have been judged on my statements and it has been suggested that the statements made here are grounds enough for a rejection.
    However, there are other statements made here that could easily be deemed more disturbing than mine.
    If you say that you all can make a judgement without even looking at the evidence that I have given, then why in the world should anyone think that further evidence would matter?
  10. 10-22-2015, 09:04 AM
    Read "requirement" in this case as "bare minimum."

    For some games there is a higher standard that people hold submissions to based on the game or history of cheating, etc. Punch Out for NES is an example where people all turn into Sherlock Holmes trying to find anything that could possibly wrong with a submission. Track and Field is one of those titles.

    So while you did complete the requirements for a MAME submission do not mistake that as grounds for automatic acceptance from the community. Sometimes the community will not act on precedent, sometimes it will be more forgiving and at other times it won't be. It's the nature of having a group in charge of decision making.

    The people voting reject here may not all be saying "this is not a valid score" either. More likely (in my opinion) is that the vote translates to "I cannot guarantee that this score has not been manipulated in some way."
Page 3 of 38 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 375
Page 3 of 38 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Join us