I have some bad news for mod chip users, maybe everdrive too?

    This poll is closed
  1. 09-24-2021, 08:24 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    I guess I'm a fool then. And I wasn't comparing PC to Consoles or saying they are the same, I was trying to say that PCs have any number of combination of components that a person can choose from, consoles have many different releases all with different components. Doing one test on one specific version of a console (or PC I guess) is not the answer to the overall picture because those other consoles are not the same. Different parts, different results. Why put in different hard drives and CPUs if the results don't change?

    Sorry if I seemed as if I thought they were all the same. They aren't
    I thought you were coming from the other direction: consoles (Xbox specifically, obviously) were like PCs... Hence the edit to my original for clarification.
    Lots of 1sts to be surpassed: what are you waiting for? Play the game, submit the score...
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  2. 09-24-2021, 08:36 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    I bring up all the different versions and updates to games and consoles because there are unfair playing fields all over the place that none have tested or even considered. Games change things all the time; speed of cars, weapons, armor, character abilities. We are so worried about modded consoles not playing exactly right for unfair advantages when we have then literally everywhere.

    There is a rainbow ISO stone in Ultimate Alliance 3 that you get in a DLC pack. It literally allows you to spam almost infinitely your powers. If I were to submit scores to that game, and they nerf that stone a few years later, what happens? Nobody could ever come close to my scores, but I did nothing wrong at the time. That's all I'm saying with this stuff. That's what we are talking about now.

    When something is changed whether it be hardware/updates/versions, it is no longer the same playing field. It's different. I have had several of you bring this up to me in the last month over my submissions because I used a password, or a console doest run perfectly, I have an unfair advantage...is anyone going to test all that stuff I just mentioned every time something is changed? That all I'm asking. It's okay here, but it's not okay here. It's allowed for this, but not for that. It was allowed then, it's not now.

    I blame CR.
    This comes across to me as you're lumping everything together (please correct & expand your original if I'm wrong).

    They're not lumped together but more a layered cake that needs slicing through. Global rules are there to define the base nature of the entire scoreboard (which can be overturned by specific rules at the top of the cake). The platform-based rules (like permitting controller-based autofire on TurboGrafx-16 but not on possibly everything else) sit on top and override the globals if necessary. The game doesn't really exist as rules but we've had a few weirdnesses where a re-release with extra content has to be considered (Wii Fit vs. Wii Fit Plus, for example, and there's a compilation on the Wii recently which escapes me right now). Then there's the track name on top of that which itself is potentially split into multiple parts depending on the game - and this carries the regional information. Finally there's the specifics of the rules (which could be argued as interchangeable with the track name depending on circumstances and the use of language within the rules).

    Now, whether you're a downward light eater or a feast everything chomper will result in different outlooks and so peeps sit down and discuss the flavours. :)
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  3. 09-24-2021, 08:38 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    i've thought about the pc thing a bit. i think this is where you cant "be black and white". cause honestly yes i do see the parallels and thought about them alot. heres what i really think makes it "grey" though. PC, if split, would have 100s of split off. do you make a different platform for every cpu, ram, and hardrive combination? in theory maybe yes if there was just a few, but theres so damn many its not reasonable. i dont know where the line is, maybe future consoles will blur the line, but for now pc is way way way past whereever the grey line is, and its just not feasible to split it all out so we have to merge even when not optimal. consoles are still a small enough number thats its not entirley unreasonable to split
    I agree. I dont think PC should be separated. You touched on my reasons for why the mods really are similar to PC. There are different versions in consoles, they do all operate differently. How do we know non modded console versions aren't all running fractionally different to begin with and the mod has nothing to do with it?
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  4. 09-24-2021, 08:40 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    I agree. I dont think PC should be separated. You touched on my reasons for why the mods really are similar to PC. There are different versions in consoles, they do all operate differently. How do we know non modded console versions aren't all running fractionally different to begin with and the mod has nothing to do with it?
    thats a fair question while also not. You know, from a learning point of view, yes good point. but from a burden of proof view, its the submitter modding to prove it didnt make a difference as opposed to rejecters to prove it did. If there is no difference at all, then obvioiusly the mod didnt cause a difference, easy peasy. If there is a difference its a heck of a lot harder to prove if the mod caused it or not, and you're right about the difficulty in that case, but since the burden of proof is on the modder, thats a reason for reject.
    Lode Runner champ, also, Roy was right
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  5. 09-24-2021, 08:50 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    I agree. I dont think PC should be separated. You touched on my reasons for why the mods really are similar to PC. There are different versions in consoles, they do all operate differently. How do we know non modded console versions aren't all running fractionally different to begin with and the mod has nothing to do with it?
    Yep & this becomes more & more relevant with the last gen getting wildly upgraded hardware & supporting the same games with potentially very different requirements (4K output instead of 1080p, for example). Older gens aren't oblivious to this either: Xbox 360 & PS3 span the SD vs. HD divide.

    However (1), the margin for baseline analysis remains a much much smaller pool of potential problems on consoles than it does PC: pre-CGA gaming vs. (I can't even simply categorise the top-end of gaming possibilities with multiple high-end graphics cards working simultaneously). There's simply no comparison across the ends of PC.

    However (2), this isn't what the scoreboard is measuring for SD systems. It's defining the console region (NTSC vs. PAL vs. SECAM prefixes) according to the TV type of the region (possibly also the game region with NTSC-U and NTSC-J prefixes) and then defining originality of the game to the region. NTSC Xbox doesn't play PAL Xbox games and therefore falls outside the scoreboard definitions. There's no PAL-On-NTSC-Mods prefixes used but if there was there'd be no argument. :)
    Lots of 1sts to be surpassed: what are you waiting for? Play the game, submit the score...
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  6. 09-24-2021, 08:53 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    thats a fair question while also not. You know, from a learning point of view, yes good point. but from a burden of proof view, its the submitter modding to prove it didnt make a difference as opposed to rejecters to prove it did. If there is no difference at all, then obvioiusly the mod didnt cause a difference, easy peasy. If there is a difference its a heck of a lot harder to prove if the mod caused it or not, and you're right about the difficulty in that case, but since the burden of proof is on the modder, thats a reason for reject.
    Agreed, and I have been asking around all over to figure it out. I have given enough price and evidence to abstain at least, but flat out reject I think we are beyond that. I'm asking every community I can about it, some have responses and some dont, but all of the responses have been it works as it should. Not one single person has questioned its accuracy. I think I have found a good active Xbox forum, so I'll link to it again tonight if they have an responses about it. My very small sample size tests all came out as accurate. Yes I had to hand time them so they weren't perfect, yes it was a small time frame, but they were right there. I know it's not the test everyone wants, but I can only so much with what I got.

    Do any of you have video editing software? I would happily record a 10minute race NTSC to NTSC, then record the same 10 minute race video converted PAL to PAL and you can run a side by side comparison. I don't know how to do that. We know my NTSC runs accurately at NTSC, if the in game timer on PAL video settings run accurately, would that not prove it's timing is correct or off? I can't think of any other test I can do. I don't think testing it against another Xbox is right because again, different hardware. I need to compare my hardware to itself since it's the one doing the conversion and it's all the same components and video camera.

    Right, wrong...I'm trying here people
  7. 09-24-2021, 09:33 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    Yep & this becomes more & more relevant with the last gen getting wildly upgraded hardware & supporting the same games with potentially very different requirements (4K output instead of 1080p, for example). Older gens aren't oblivious to this either: Xbox 360 & PS3 span the SD vs. HD divide.

    However (1), the margin for baseline analysis remains a much much smaller pool of potential problems on consoles than it does PC: pre-CGA gaming vs. (I can't even simply categorise the top-end of gaming possibilities with multiple high-end graphics cards working simultaneously). There's simply no comparison across the ends of PC.

    However (2), this isn't what the scoreboard is measuring for SD systems. It's defining the console region (NTSC vs. PAL vs. SECAM prefixes) according to the TV type of the region (possibly also the game region with NTSC-U and NTSC-J prefixes) and then defining originality of the game to the region. NTSC Xbox doesn't play PAL Xbox games and therefore falls outside the scoreboard definitions. There's no PAL-On-NTSC-Mods prefixes used but if there was there'd be no argument. :)
    It's a fair point, but there is no flashcart prefix either and they are used under those consoles and have shown flaws and inaccuracies. My Xbox absolutely plays PAL games :p. I've got an entire TW03 leaderboard full of scores you all need to dispute proving it plays PAL games. Unless we are sticking to no timed runs but scoring runs are okay, which I've always been fine with.

    Side conversation. What is the PAL 60 on PAL Xboxs? Does it allow people to play NTSC games? Does it allow you to play PAL games at NTSC speeds, and if it does why would you do that? That wouldn't be allowed under PAL tracks would it? Genuinely don't know, simply asking since we are on Xbox stuff
  8. 09-24-2021, 12:03 PM
    It's a fair point, but there is no flashcart prefix either and they are used under those consoles and have shown flaws and inaccuracies. My Xbox absolutely plays PAL games :p. I've got an entire TW03 leaderboard full of scores you all need to dispute proving it plays PAL games. Unless we are sticking to no timed runs but scoring runs are okay, which I've always been fine with.
    I disagree as even with scores the game running cross regions will run at a different speed giving advantages or even disadvantages. It's not the same game, try a really fast reaction game like Ridge Racer and you will see just how much of a difference this does make in game. It's really significant.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    Agreed, and I have been asking around all over to figure it out. I have given enough price and evidence to abstain at least, but flat out reject I think we are beyond that. I'm asking every community I can about it, some have responses and some dont, but all of the responses have been it works as it should. Not one single person has questioned its accuracy. I think I have found a good active Xbox forum, so I'll link to it again tonight if they have an responses about it. My very small sample size tests all came out as accurate. Yes I had to hand time them so they weren't perfect, yes it was a small time frame, but they were right there. I know it's not the test everyone wants, but I can only so much with what I got.

    Do any of you have video editing software? I would happily record a 10minute race NTSC to NTSC, then record the same 10 minute race video converted PAL to PAL and you can run a side by side comparison. I don't know how to do that. We know my NTSC runs accurately at NTSC, if the in game timer on PAL video settings run accurately, would that not prove it's timing is correct or off? I can't think of any other test I can do. I don't think testing it against another Xbox is right because again, different hardware. I need to compare my hardware to itself since it's the one doing the conversion and it's all the same components and video camera.

    Right, wrong...I'm trying here people
    Yes!! This is what I've been waiting for so thank you. I'm very curious to see how Xbox compares as that is one console we have never tested here.

    Can you record a game, ideally a racing game (or even better a racing game which times out gameplay after say 7 - 10 minutes like Ridge Racer V) as they tend to have good timers so are perfect for this type of test. @Barthax or anyone do you guys know a car game he can run which has this but also more importantly runs on the in game clock and not the BIOS timer?

    Would you like to send me the videos when completed and i will do the exact same frame by frame analysis test i did. The test will be completely unbiased if Xbox runs correctly then it does, i'm genuinely curious to know and I'd like to help with it. If you are interested in my help then drop me a message on here.
  9. 09-24-2021, 12:34 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by rotunda View Post
    I disagree as even with scores the game running cross regions will run at a different speed giving advantages or even disadvantages. It's not the same game, try a really fast reaction game like Ridge Racer and you will see just how much of a difference this does make in game. It's really significant.



    Yes!! This is what I've been waiting for so thank you. I'm very curious to see how Xbox compares as that is one console we have never tested here.

    Can you record a game, ideally a racing game (or even better a racing game which times out gameplay after say 7 - 10 minutes like Ridge Racer V) as they tend to have good timers so are perfect for this type of test. @Barthax or anyone do you guys know a car game he can run which has this but also more importantly runs on the in game clock and not the BIOS timer?

    Would you like to send me the videos when completed and i will do the exact same frame by frame analysis test i did. The test will be completely unbiased if Xbox runs correctly then it does, i'm genuinely curious to know and I'd like to help with it. If you are interested in my help then drop me a message on here.
    I was going to use Burnout Revenge since I already have it. I know Need for Speed Underground has timed races but they aren't very long. I was looking to simply start a race, let it run for 10 minutes and then stop. Do the same on PAL video settings with a PAL game, and then stop. Same hardware, software, everything. Data compared to data from the same system.

    I know Halo's last mission has a 5 minute count down, I could use that also
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  10. 09-24-2021, 07:52 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Barthax View Post
    That's not exactly a particularly useful reply. To me it's a bit like saying "Christian salvation" is pretty easy to find to a Athiest. :P
    This whole thread isn't particularly useful.

    Cavemen trying to make videos and illustrate 1% speed differences between things that have full schematics available.
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