Originally Posted by Snowflake

we approve if no differences are known, yet if down the line differences are found, the score can be removed and the people who voted wrong can be penalized which i'm sure will lead to its own wave of complaints.

Yes and I'm ok with that, if somebody finds differences in gameplay then the scores should be removed, otherwise I don't see a problem.

Originally Posted by Snowflake

i abstained on third party uploads and i abstain on mods i'm not confident are zero problem. since its allowed we cant decide to reject. we have to accept or abstain. accepters should keep in mind though the "its allowed" comes with "IF it leads to identical game play" and if there was some minor difference that the adjudictaor missed, thats on them and they will be eventualy pinged for it

If it was a normal, well known thing that every time you mod a console, it presents differences in gameplay, TG and other much bigger sites like speedrun would not allow it, but this is not the case. Other than sometimes differences in loading times, the gameplay is usually identical.

Originally Posted by rotunda

Pixe Sukola to answer all your other questions, this is the point I'm making its not about if someone will cheat or has. It's about the possibility of doing so and even doing so without knowledge and the consequences later on.

You keep ignoring my question and just keep repeating the same thing about the posibilities of cheating. Plase answer this, if cheating can be done even using only original hardware by submitting a score to PAL while using NTSC hardware and software, what's your solution? to not allow direct capture?

Originally Posted by rotunda

why let it MAYBE happen when we can sort the problem now as there is clear evidence to prove it. It's a known problem, why ignore it.

You keep contradicting yourself, you say it is a known problem and at the same time you say MAYBE it's going to happen. If this was a known problem you would have plenty of examples to present here of scores that have been cheated or at least you are suspicious of. I repeat, if you can't point out at a specific case, then is not a known problem.

if you don't know if the chip affects gameplay, why assume it would?

Ok, i will explain as clear as i can. I said I don't know enough to know yes it does mess with a console playing like for like games or not. I'm not a programmer I'm fairly technically minded but this is beyond me and thus i said I don't know in that certain case if it would or not. But, it is possible given the CPU overhead from being bombarded with region codes while the console is on. Is it right is it wrong? If you have the knowledge then test it. It doesn't have to be absolute to be a problem. Not knowing is a problem as there is a chance of doubt and therefore i don't vote on said submissions. If you are referring to cross platform game play on mod chips, ever drives, etc then i can say with 100% certainty that it does effect game play because i have researched and tested it. Like for like hardware, no certainty but feel free to test it as I would love to know.

If you need an example of a submission this has effected look on page 1, my very own submissions which i pulled right away when i found this out from my research. Which in turn cost people credibility to people who voted yes even though mod chip was mentioned. Why? because as an adjudicator you cannot tell. This is why i don't vote on such submissions. There was also a recent event where someone submitted to the wrong region and it was completely overlooked on xbox. It was only because i said i abstain because i can't confirm the console is correct the guy then checked and saw he made an error.. so it does happen and has happened.

What do you mean "do we let it carry on"? carry on what? you mentioned that you are not saying that any scores have been cheated but still want to stop it from continuing? what do you want to stop exactly? If you suspect any scores, the best idea is to dispute them, if you don't suspect any scores, then this is not a problem is it?

That's just it... There could very well be cheated scores you would never of noticed. We could be further in the rabbit hole already and we wouldn't even know because it takes testing to verify, frame by frame not just watching a video.

It's quite clear.. do we let the possibility of people voting on submissions later have a penality for something they could not avoid (and this has already happened, see page 1 where i revoked my own submissions after my research and discovery leading to a lot of credibility hits to many people) happen again if/when the current rule is overturned (if ever, again no certainty and thus confidence to vote.) or do we carry on presuming its all ok, no one will ever cheat, no one on TG has ever cheated, right? When you download a ROM you check the code for correct region code, not just the file name, right? Do we carry on ignoring the evidence here. It's a generalization and a chance to avoid a problem later on.

But as it stands, its accepted so i don't see any point in keeping this up. I'm just glad it's been resolved.

Remember when Jason intentionally submitted bad evidence to test us? Pepperidge Ben remembers.

Originally Posted by bensweeneyonbass

Remember when Jason intentionally submitted bad evidence to test us? Pepperidge Ben remembers.

Yes and it took awhile for people to catch on even then and i made it so obvious. It's called frustration to get people to take note. But that said in retrospect, that was certainly definitely taking it far too seriously. But hey, when you are passionate about something sometimes you do dumb things and I am passionate about the integrity of the database here.

So can @Dave Hawksett or @Jace Hall change the rules regarding this? I see everdrive has been added but i think it needs a bit more clarity as i feel it to still be a little confusing and may mislead others.

Does anyone remember the guy who submitted and realized he was using the incorrect console for the ROM? it was some sort of flying game on Xbox. @Barthax do you remember?

You make excuses very well. It took a mere two or three days before someone reached out to you. Please don't justify an egregious misuse of the system and an intentional trap for adjudicators in the same thread that you're talking about integrity and penalties for voters. Thanks. I'm done here.

Originally Posted by rotunda

Not knowing is a problem as there is a chance of doubt and therefore i don't vote on said submissions.

And that's absolutely fine, it is your choice to vote or not on any given submission.

Originally Posted by rotunda

If you are referring to cross platform game play on mod chips, ever drives, etc then i can say with 100% certainty that it does effect game play because i have researched and tested it. Like for like hardware, no certainty but feel free to test it as I would love to know.

I think you meant cross region, and yes that is a well known fact that some PAL games are slower than the NTSC version, nobody is arguing the opposite. That's why they are separated.

Originally Posted by rotunda

It's quite clear.. do we let the possibility of people voting on submissions later have a penality for something they could not avoid happen again if/when the current rule is overturned

My answer is Yes, we let the people vote on submissions and if later a difference in gameplay is found and the scores are disputed, penalize them.

Originally Posted by rotunda

do we carry on presuming its all ok, no one will ever cheat, no one on TG has ever cheated, right? When you download a ROM you check the code for correct region code, not just the file name, right?

obviously a very, very small percentage of people is always going to try and cheat, it doesn't matter if they are using a modded console or only original stuff, and some people will get away with it and others will be found out and banned. I'm not sure what your solution would be to that.

In my case yes I always check for the correct region when downloading a game, in fact, I don't know if it's the same for every console but, for Wii games, different regions have different IDs, so thats easy enough to check, just look up the game online followed by the region and the words "game ID" and you will know what ID belongs to what region, and when you are reviewing my scores you can clearly confirm that Im using the correct one, because the game ID appears on screen when loading the game.

But I think we are just going in circles here, so I'll leave it at that, if you find any problems with any of my scores submitted using modded consoles please dispute it, it ill be removed and I'll be penalized, maybe even banned if it turns out I did it on porpouse. Im perfectly ok with the logic of that.

I wasnt gonna pigpile with ben on jason since admin decided it didnt cross the line, alot of us push things, and its been a long time

But to claim it took the community a long time, no it didnt. you were caught almost immediately and instead of apologizing just gave the "um it was all a test yeah thats the ticket, a test, i was cheating, you passed my test well done" (not word for word lol). to claim people took to long now i will speak up

also, this talk of database integrity? please just recently you tried to remove your own valid scores. so a long time ago you tried to get bad scores in, and in recent time you tried to get good scores taken out

looking pushing us testing us, i go back in forth in my feelings on that. i've pushed the envelope a few times myself and i'll push it again. but i try to be honest about my pushes. dont go pretending the community was lax, or that you're just driven by database purity when just last month you were trying to get valid scores removed

ok, thats my piece, back to biting my tongue, he's all yours ben ;)

Originally Posted by rotunda

Does anyone remember the guy who submitted and realized he was using the incorrect console for the ROM? it was some sort of flying game on Xbox. Barthax do you remember?

It was Kyle Nelson, and the game game was Battle Engine Aquila.

Originally Posted by Pixe Sukola

It was Kyle Nelson, and the game game was Battle Engine Aquila.

Thank you!

Hopefully Jace/Dave can clear up the rules and make them a bit more clear but other then that, we are good to go.

Happy gaming all.