Dispute: Dick Moreland - Atari 2600 / VCS - Dragster - NTSC - Game 1, Difficulty B [Fastest Time] - Player: Todd Rogers - Score: 05.51

Is this a valid dispute?

    This poll is closed
This poll is closed
  1. 01-28-2018, 08:41 PM
    At this point I'm awaiting a conclusion that admits of no fault. I expect Todd to have made a statement along the lines of rescinding his claim to a 5.51 for PR friendly reasons, such as wanting to prevent further harm to the community. This way he can claim to not have been caught cheating on it - technically, there was no TG adjudication resulting in a guilty verdict. The adjudication process, IMHO, must come to the conclusion that the score can't be kept up with any degree of credibility, and pre-empting that conclusion is the only way to save face. It would be the most elegant way out of a situation he has lied himself into for over thirty years. This way he can have his cake and eat it too.
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  2. 01-28-2018, 08:43 PM
    I am very happy this dispute will be put to bed soon. We don't need a radical feline on reddit trying to convince the speedrunners that she knows all the TG's deep dark secrets, and how she is so proud of what they are doing, and how they are awesome, and how it isn't creepy at all that a 55 year old is trying to befriend anyone and everyone in a community much younger than herself.
    Your friend, datagod
    Thanks HectorTelloc thanked this post
  3. 01-28-2018, 08:59 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - this is where consistency is necessary. Sanders' two (2) separate "Joust" doubles records were witnessed at ACAM just as some of Todd's scores were witnessed by other officials. I witnessed perhaps up to two dozens of his scores myself, for example.

    Yet Sanders gets a "pass" ? This is not just a mere case of being from a different era...this can be perceived as a case of "different strokes for different folks" seeing how Steve is buddy-buddy with a certain well known TG-supporter without whom TG could not have survived financially. You can see where I am going with this.
    For the record I don’t believe Sanders should be given a pass. If they decide to go back and give him a lifetime ban/remove all his records, I’d be fine with it. Yeah, it would suck for the gamers that played with him, but they were playing with a known cheater. They made the decision to perform with him, so…
  4. 01-28-2018, 09:12 PM
    Thats an interesting grey area, Ill speak up on that one.

    In the case of a double's record, you have an extra witness -- the other player. It was my understanding steve lied about a donkey kong score back in the day where everyone was trusted. No fake photo. No buddy ref entering it for him. Just outright lied. With the doubles, you have an extra witness. Then again, you are responsible for you team with. I could see it going either way. Heres the real thing though, because it is so different, I dont think it automatically needs to be treated like toher records. If its decided doubles stay, that shouldnt be used as an excuse to keep his singles.

    Its great to find grey areas and corner cases, details matter. However, uncovering a corner area and using it as an excuse to get the majority of cases wrong just so the corner case be right doesnt make sense, even though I do sadly see it happen in many areas of life. If everything is treated the same -- even things that are different and deserve a different answer, then the corner case should suffer, not the main case.
    Lode Runner champ, also, Roy was right
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  5. 01-28-2018, 09:53 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    Thats an interesting grey area, Ill speak up on that one.

    In the case of a double's record, you have an extra witness -- the other player. It was my understanding steve lied about a donkey kong score back in the day where everyone was trusted. No fake photo. No buddy ref entering it for him. Just outright lied. With the doubles, you have an extra witness. Then again, you are responsible for you team with. I could see it going either way. Heres the real thing though, because it is so different, I dont think it automatically needs to be treated like toher records. If its decided doubles stay, that shouldnt be used as an excuse to keep his singles.

    Its great to find grey areas and corner cases, details matter. However, uncovering a corner area and using it as an excuse to get the majority of cases wrong just so the corner case be right doesnt make sense, even though I do sadly see it happen in many areas of life. If everything is treated the same -- even things that are different and deserve a different answer, then the corner case should suffer, not the main case.
    Wise words.
  6. 01-28-2018, 10:07 PM
    Does it even matter in this case? Lets say all his scores were removed, I don't think anyone anticipates that he would start submitting scores again.
  7. 01-29-2018, 03:36 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by EVN View Post
    Does it even matter in this case? Lets say all his scores were removed, I don't think anyone anticipates that he would start submitting scores again.
    It matters for the integrity of the scoreboard and for people who may choose to submit to those tracks in the future. You're probably right though about the submitting part.
    Craig Rout Gallant

    Current verified TG WRs: 58

    My Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/CraigARG
    MAME World Records channel: http://www.youtube.com/MAMEWorldRecords
  8. 01-29-2018, 04:28 AM
    My name is Robert T Mruczek. I was "Contributing Editor" at TG from Apr/01-Jul/01, then promoted to "Chief Referee" on Aug/01 and held that position until end of Aug/05 when I resigned. Walter convinced me to return but I said I would no longer operate in that role, so I was a "Senior Referee" at that point in charge of just the arcade/MAME platforms from Sep/05 until I resigned on Dec19/06.

    I have known Todd Rogers personally since a few weeks, maybe months, after his scores were first accepted by TG during the late 1990 range (1996-1998) and have maintained close ties and friendship ever since.

    I regard Todd as the brother that I never had, so this was exceptionally difficult for me to craft this statement. I do not say this lightly as I know full well that I run the risk of irrevocably damaging, or worse, losing a 20+ year long friendship with that very same brother. This is something I have never had to do before in gaming...ever.

    Todd's "Dragster" performance is one that I have qualified as being one of the top five video game performances of all time within multiple forum posts and in several interviews. I also held in personal awe many of his gaming achievements across the past two decades. However, the dispute process has been so effective in collecting all the evidence regarding this ("Dragster") score over the past several months that I finally felt that it was the appropriate time and place to provide my viewpoint and experience in dealing with Todd's scores as a former referee for the Twin Galaxies organization.

    I have personally believed Todd's 5.51 score was legitimate for the past 20+ years and have never had a reason to doubt it's veracity during that time. I am well aware both professionally, observationally and anecdotally of Todd's exceptional gaming skills. His explanation on how he did the performance has been unwavering across every interview granted and available in print for the past 20+ years, thus I placed my personal and professional faith into the veracity of this performance during this entire time, never once questioning whether the time was actually achieved.

    The best analogy that I can use would be that of legendary billiards and pool pro, Mike Massey, the master of the "power draw". If Massey said that he pulled off a 9-cushion power draw and I never saw it done, I would have no reason to disprove this legendary player with a talent level far beyond that of all but the upper echelon of fellow billard and pool experts.

    However, it is with great regret that the foundations of my steadfast faith in this nearly legendary performance of 5.51 seconds on "Dragster" has been shaken severely by recent empirical and hard data accumulated by numerous sources and technical experts across the past several months.



    Part One

    Several years back during the early days of my tenure with TG, Walter Day asked me about a single score that Todd had in the database...a 1.2 million on "Cosmic Ark". It seems that the next-highest score at the time was just 20K. A flurry of Todd's scores had been entered into the database when he first came onboard, but this one, for whatever reason, caught Walter's attention.

    The game is like arcade "Space Zap". The 2600 version is not a cakewalk, and now 15 years later the best score TG has on file other than Todd's is only 83K

    Part Two

    In the late 2002 range I ran the Atari 2600 Time Deca for TG, an event that had never been thought of before, and to this day it had never been done again.


    In this event, gamers sent me AVI files whereas I sent my own performances to Ron Corcoran on VHS tape for validation as I was running the event, and I had no capacity to record onto an AVI file.

    Todd won the event hands down, and nearly achieved a perfect rating. Every one of his performances I personally validated, and all looked good...including a 32.67 on "Barnstorming" (Game 1B) which, to this day, would be a world record. However, at the time Todd had a better score in the TG database and as such the score never made it into the TG database outside of a forum post.

    As it turned out, Todd's better scores were false, but since his next best verified score was only a 32.77, his 32.67 never made it into the TG database to this day.

    After seeing Todd's performances for the first time, I was what you would call a true believer that he was an amazing gamer with skills above and beyond the rest of us with respect to the 2600 console.

    Part Three

    As time marched on, a few key moments happened which made me kind of shake my head. Here are the ones that I recall vividly...

    Wizard of Wor (2600) - this was part of the Atari/ColecoVision deca event which Ron co-ran with Stephen Knox. The TG record at the time was quite low, barely 150K. I managed to reach I think 320K and became the first gamer to break the 200K barrier and the 300K barrier, AND to discover that the game awarded another extra life deep into the performance, I think at the 200K or 300K mark. Admittedly I discovered two basic approaches, one for each of the two different screens, but they were not 100% foolproof and as far as I reached I ultimately died.

    Post event Todd cranks out 800K. To this day I never saw the performance, he never mentioned THAT he did the performance, and I assume Ron entered the performance as Todd was not yet a TG staffer.

    Turmoil (2600) - this was another part of the Atari/CV deca event. I got pretty far into the game reaching nearly 300K. Corcoran posted 800K post-event which blew my mind due to how hard the title was, and then Todd posted 1.1 million which is even more staggering. Again, I never saw this one, and since the score has a 2004 date this was self-entered by Todd into the TG database as Corcoran was long since gone.

    To date no one else has passed my 292K, yet these two people did, and by a huge margin. No proof. It's moot for Corcoran now, but not for Todd.

    Part Four

    A point was reached where, between these earlier accounts and the blocking of self-entry where I took a good look at some of Todd's most impressive performances. This was concurrent with Todd coming under fire for his "Skiing" (1B) time of 32.63 seconds. Gamers were mystified how he did it and were openly questioning the authenticity of the score.

    As chief referee, and as I was not the referee who authenticated the score, and as the one that did was gone, I saw this as a major problem. We already knew the story about the tapes (or rather, lack thereof) returned by the Glendale police to Brien King, so there was nowhere else to turn.

    I reviewed his scores and found a small number to be outrageously high in terms of do-ability. I sent Todd a senior referee-to-senior referee E-MAIL disussing my need to see proof or about 6-8 scores and I promised...swore, actually...that I would give my 100% support and full confidence in ALL of his scores in the TG database if...IF...he presented me with proof of the following. And after multiple requests spanning several years, my request for proof was rebuffed at every turn. The reason cited was always the same...that the tapes were buried amidst hundreds of tapes and he had to find them, then make copies, and just did not have the time.

    Anyway, here are the ones that I can remember and why...

    Part Four (A)

    "Kaboom" (2600) - Game 1A - in this challenge, Todd claimed a score of 960,001 points which is beyond insane. There are multiple 1M point players out there...I am one of them...but that is at difficulty "B". Todd claimed "A" where the paddle width is maybe half to as little as a third of the standard paddle width. The problem with the score, in addition to how high it is, is the logistics of getting this specific score. For starters, you get an extra balloon every 1000 points. Second, there are only three (3) ways in existence to get this score...

    (A) - on your LAST paddle, assuming you were in stage 8, at 959,993 you caught one (1) balloon but quickly died and made no more points that paddle, and on your next paddle...dropping back to the much slower stage 7, you completely missed...after 5 hours of stellar gameplay. The same logic applies if you were originally in stage 7...you would have been at 959,994 then caught one (1) 7 point balloon and quickly died, then as you start back in the WAY slower stage 6 you completely miss...after 5 hours of stellar gameplay.

    (B) - on your SECOND to last paddle, the sequence is the same as above BUT you end up missing everything twice in a row thereafter...even less plausible after 5 hours of stellar gameplay PLUS since you had the extra paddle you get knocked back 1 stage further which means your last death occurred on an even slower stage

    (C) - with ALL paddles you grab a stage 8 balloon at 959,993 to reach 960,001 crossing 960K thus NOT awarding an extra paddle, you die and then follow suit with the rest of (B)

    Bottom line, Jace, is that this is likely one of the most implausible outcomes of all of Todd's score claims. I asked Todd to provide video proof of JUST the final 60 seconds. It never was given. Note that this score has since been removed from the TG database. Sadly, my own personal best, which was in the mid 20K range in comparison, is gone from the TG database else I would be champion at this challenge.

    Part Four (B)

    "Robot Tank" (2600) - this is one of the toughest Activision titles out there. Each stage or level consists of twelve (12) tanks to defeat. You do earn extra attempts along the way, but as the game progresses so does the commensurate difficulty. So much so that to this day there is a cluster of scores between 66 and 76 tanks, nine (9) scores in total. Todd claimed 144.

    I asked Todd to provide proof of the final 12 tanks only. It was never given. Note that this score has since been removed from the TG database.

    Part Four (C)

    "Cosmic Ark" (2600) - remembering Walter's earlier concern, I asked for about a minute of proof from the advanced stages. It was never given. This score remains in the TG database.

    Part Four (D)

    "Superman" (2600) - this one actually annoys me. Todd has a claim of 47 seconds. That is MASSIVE on this title. I calculated years back, from start to finish, that 45 seconds would be the absolute pinnacle of achievement on the title...keeping in mind that the outcome is random BUT if certain key elements were met in an optimal layout then conceivably 45 seconds was possible.

    Bottom line is Todd claimed 47, just 2 seconds slower...a nearly flawless setup. I asked to see this in the entirety and it was never provided. Note that the performance remains in the TG database.
    Of equal note...CHEATING, I was able to do 58 seconds BUT that was still when I did not know the shortcut back to the Daily Planet which would have shaved off nearly 10 seconds...so cheating it is do-able to get 48-49 seconds (Todd claimed 47) but faster still...and WITHOUT cheating ??

    Part Four (E)

    "Turmoil" (2600) - to be perfectly honest, I still could not conceive how my absolute best effort was beaten by nearly 4 times by Todd (never mind the now-removed 800K by Corcoran), so I asked Todd for a minute or two clip of the advanced levels. Proof was never provided, and the score still remains in the TG database.

    Part Four (F)

    "Demons to Diamonds" (2600) - Todd had a score of approx 41K and yet at my best I had difficulty breaking the 10K mark. The instruction manual discussed the point values at later levels where some items were worth as much as 2K, so I always thought that such a high score was possible. But, even so, I wanted to see just a minute or so clip of the advanced levels. This request was never provided. Todd's score has since been removed.

    Part Four (G)

    "Boxing" (2600) - in all fairness, I witnessed a performance by Todd of 28 seconds remaining and it SEEMED nearly flawless, so I wanted to see his better performance of 24 seconds remaining. No proof was ever granted.

    As it stands, not only does Todd's score remain, but it appears that subseqeuent to my request to see Todd's run, another gamer cranked out an even faster 18 seconds remaining. SO, clearly Todd's run is do-able, but for the sake of transparency this was one of the performances I had questioned years back, and time would prove that it was, in fact, do-able...albeit by another gamer.

    There MIGHT have been additional scores that I challenged...it's been too many years and I cannot remember beyond the ones above.

    ************************************************** ***


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...041#post911041 - Todd's explanation


    In this section, as I have done for many occasions on the forum since leaving TG on 12/19/06 and even before I left TG, I chronicled why Brien King was forced to build in a self-entry block on the old TG site.

    The story is this, and I will provide proof below...

    Copy of TG leaderpage 7/07/04
    Note that the TG leaderboard did NOT yet exist

    Copy of TG leaderpage 7/18/04
    348 - Corcoran
    192 - Todd
    183 - Stephen Knox
    177 - Myself

    Copy of TG leaderpage 9/29/04
    346 - Corcoran
    193 - Todd
    183 - Stephen
    174 - Myself
    Very little changed since initial release (between 7/07/04 and 7/18/04) and 9/29/04

    Copy of TG leaderboard 10/12/04...just 2 weeks later
    316 - Corcoran
    293 - Todd (!!)
    171 - Stephen
    167 - Myself
    Note that fully 100 scores were entered for Todd during this 2 week period...all world records...and Corcoran was no longer a TG staffer.

    Copy of TG leaderboard 12/08/04
    305 - Corcoran
    294 - Todd
    171 Stephen
    156 - Matt Leto
    155 - Myself
    Matt Leto's backlog of scores was finally being entered, and by this time as you can tell, between 10/12/04 and 12/08/04, no more self-entry. In fact Todd's score count largely did not change much since 10/12/04

    Copy of TG leaderboard 12/30/04
    305 - Corcoran
    293 - Todd
    222 - Matt Leto
    171 - Stephen
    152 - Myself
    Matt's backlog continues to be chipped away at, and as you can see, no change for anyone else in the top five

    Copy of TG leaderboard 2/07/05
    299 - Todd
    293 - Corcoran
    222 - Matt Leto
    177 - Stephen
    150 - Tom Duncan
    At this point I drop off the top 5, and Tom Duncan starts to impact the scoreboard big time. Todd's count grew by just a bit.

    Copy of TG leaderboard 2/09/05...just two (2) days later
    402 - Myself (see below)
    299 - Todd
    293 - Corcoran
    222 - Matt Leto
    178 - Stephen
    This was the upload of the Mark Longridge MAME database impact. For many years Mark on his www.cubeman.org site maintained the TG repository of MAME records, much as Corcoran did for the Atari platform on his Snipercade site. However Longridge decided to leave TG and we needed control over both the scoreboard and future adjudication. So I uploaded his MAME database by manually crafting an ACCESS.MDB file to be uploaded by Douglas MacGregor into the TG scoreboard. Problem was, Mark steadfastly did not watch/log ALL scores on MAME, just the ones he felt were significant as far as the titles.

    The old TG database did not allow gamers to see the rules until at least one score was in the TG database, SOOO, that huge backlog of "non-essential" titles and scores which I worked so hard at setting inaugural scores for, finally made it into the database. Initially I was around 447 records and the negative forum feedback was fast and furious, but as I explained many a time, these were inaugural scores for that sole purpose, with many very "beatable", and sure enough the score count started to fall afterwards.

    Copy of TG leaderboard as of 2/27/05
    397 - Myself
    299 - Todd
    293 - Corcoran
    222 - Matt Leto
    199 - Tom Duncan
    Tom's impact continues, and my own scores are starting to be chipped away at by the MAME community

    Copy of TG leaderboard 3/30/05
    714 - Matt Leto (!!)
    393 - Myself
    298 - Corcoran
    297 - Todd
    241 - Tom Duncan
    More of the massive backlog of Matt Leto scores were entered across the previous month. My own score count continues to drop, and Todd's does nominally

    Copy of TG leaderboard 4/28/05
    741 - Leto
    385 - Myself
    315 - Duncan
    289 - Todd
    288 - Corcoran
    Matt & Tom go up, the rest go down

    Copy of TG leaderboard 5/31/05
    703 - Leto
    444 - Duncan (!!)
    393 - Myself
    288 - Todd
    287 - Corcoran
    Massive increase for Tom Duncan likely taking some of Matt's in the process. INcrease for me as I continued to contribute new inaugural MAME scores as fast as my older submissions were beat. Todd and Ron nominally decreased

    Copy of TG leaderboard 6/29/05
    703 - Leto
    486 - Duncan
    466 - ALexander Trammell
    389 - Myself
    290 - David Yancey
    As you can see several major changes hit the TG database over the past month. Todd is still at 288 with Corcoran at 283

    Copy of TG leaderboard 7/27/05
    685 - Leto
    548 - Duncan
    490 - Trammell
    388 - Myself
    287 - Todd
    Duncan and Trammell continue to climb while Yancey loses nominal ground and drops to 283. Corcoran now at 282

    Copy of TG leaderboard 8/31/05
    661 - Leto
    624 - Duncan
    590 - Trammell
    370 - Myself
    315 - Troy Whelan
    Many changes in both directions with TG staffer Troy Whelan cracking the top five. I cannot remember whether there was speculation that Troy and a second referee were co-verifying each other's records during this period. Todd is now at 285 with Yancey at 284

    Copy of TG leaderboard 9/29/05
    796 - Duncan
    699 - Trammell
    659 - Leto
    360 - Myself
    321 - Whelan
    Todd now at 280, Corcoran 275 and Yancey 239, big drop for Yancey

    Copy of TG leaderboard 10/30/05
    888 - Duncan
    692 - Trammell
    663 - Leto
    350 - Myself
    344 - Whelan
    Todd now 280, Corcoran 268 and Yancey 238

    Copy of TG leaderboard 11/30/05
    1002 - Duncan (!!)
    692 - Trammell
    663 - Leto
    348 - Myself
    345 - Whelan
    Duncan cracks 1000. Todd now at 278, Corcoran 267, Yancey 228

    Copy of TG leaderboard 12/31/05
    1087 - Duncan
    663 - Leto
    636 - Trammell
    343 - Whelan
    342 - Myself
    Duncan chopping down at Trammell, possibly intentionally to have no one closing in on him. Todd still 278, Corcoran 263, Yancey still 228

    Copy of TG leaderboard 3/27/06
    1267 - Duncan
    661 - Leto
    483 - Trammell
    395 - Whelan
    316 - Myself
    Duncan continuing his massive climb, attacking Trammell's score count as part of that. My own count drops substantially. Todd now at 277, Corcoran 256 and moving up the ranks is Rodrigo Lopes at 229. Yancey still at 228.

    Copy of TG leaderboard 6/15/06
    1687 - Duncan (!!)
    658 - Leto
    382 - Whelan
    322 - Myself
    281 - Todd
    Wow...what a difference nearly 3 months made !! Duncan is going into the stratosphere, Trammell loses more than 250 records as he is now only 232. Corcoran still 256 and now Fabiano Souza at 248 plus Hector Rodriguez at 245 AND Kelly Flewin at 230. In comparison Rodrigo now 230 and Yancey 223. The landscape is changing rapidly and substantially.

    Copy of TG leaderboard 9/02/06
    2102 - Duncan (!!)
    465 - Leto
    399 - Souza (!!)
    368 - Whelan
    305 - Rodrigo
    Wow, even more substantial changes !! Duncan just keeps climbing as does Souza. Todd now at 282, I am only 260 which is a major drop from 2+ months prior, Corcoran at 257, up from 256, which makes NO SENSE as he was no longer a TG staffer at this point which implies he re-gained a 1st place score after some score was removed but no way to know which at this point...plus in the here and now this is moot. Still, it makes you wonder what idiocy caused this.

    Copy of TG leaerboard 12/30/06
    2345 - Duncan
    417 - Whelan (!!)
    399 - Souza
    383 - Leto
    345 - Rodrigo
    More major changes, and note that both Whelan and Rodrigo are TG staffers. Since this is 12/30/06 I was no longer part of TG at this point. Todd now only 266, Hector Rodriguez is 264, Corcoran down to 232. I was whittled down to 227 as was Yancey who is now 194.

    Copy of TG leaderboard 3/24/07
    2488 - Duncan
    429 - Whelan
    402 - Rodrigo
    399 - Souza
    377 - Leto
    More changes. Todd now up to 273, Hector at 255, Corcoran down to 241, Kelly Flewin (TG senior referee) now up to 235, I am down to 234 and Yancey at 220.

    Copy of TG leaderboard 6/26/07
    2691 - Duncan
    422 - Whelan
    395 - Souza
    371 - Leto
    368 - Rodrigo
    Likely Duncan beat some of Rodrigo's scores, again to keep a distance between his lofty spot and any budding threat. Todd now 271, Terrence O'Neill (TG staffer) now at 267 to enter top ten for 1st time, Hector is 255, Kelly Flewin 229, Corcoran no longer in top 10 and is 220, Yancey at 215 and I continue to drop and am now 207

    Copy of TG leaderboard 9/19/07
    3049 - Duncan (!!)
    868 - Flewin (!!)
    477 - Whelan
    383 - Souza
    371 - Leto
    This makes me sick. I got SKEWERED when my inaugural uploads for MAME...mainly weak scores...put me into top spot at 400+, yet here is Kelly Flewin whose scores jumped from 229 to 868 over not even 3 months, and not a peep from the gaming community. I could not get my fellow refereres to watch my performances for years, yet here comes Flewin with 640 scores entered into the database over the past 3 months. Sickening.

    Additionally, Rodrigo now 358, Terrence 286, Todd 271, Ryan Sullivan (TG referee) now 231, Frankie Cardulla is number 10 with 229, and Corcoran now 218, Yancey at 215, Stephen Knox down to 206, Hector at 206, and I am down to a mere 15th place with 201 as my scores continue to get pounded on by others...not that I did not expect this, but it is saddening how I got skewered up front but now this is OK

    Copy of TG leaderboard 12/28/07
    3138 - Duncan
    831 - Flewin
    473 - Whelan
    383 - Souza
    377 - Rodrigo
    Not MUCH of a change at the top, relatively speaking, BUT Leto dips nominally to 370, O'Neill up to 318, Cardulla up to 271, Todd dips to 266, Corcoran INCREASES to 220 (??)...how the heck did THAT happen...Andrew Peter Mee (TG staffer) makes the scene with 219, Ryan Sullivan dips to 218, Yancey now at 212, Stehen Knox at 2dipped to 16th place with 192

    Copy of TG leaderboard 6/29/08 - I'm skipping ahead 6 months
    3938 - Duncan
    756 - Flewin
    604 - Andrew Peter Mee
    508 - Whelan
    462 - Cardulla
    What a difference here. The top four (4) spots are now ALL occupied by TG staffers. Rocky Rose now in 6th with 402, and of conseqeuence Todd now 264, Corcoran at 206 and I am way down in 23rd with 167

    Copy of TG leaderboard 12/17/08 - skipping ahead another 6 months
    4336 - Duncan
    844 - Flewin
    788 - Andrew Peter Mee
    547 - Rocky Rose
    521 - Troy Whelan
    Of interesting note, more gamers have 500 or more records now than ever before, with Cardulla at 506 as well. Plus Patrick Scott Patterson is now in 11th with 358. Todd at 257, Corcoran at 199 and I am under 150 records as 25th place is Tom Votava with 150

    Copy of TG leaderboard 6/23/09 - skipping another 6 months
    5081 - Duncan (!!)
    904 - Flewin
    772 - Mee
    558 - Whelan
    534 - "Tee Jester"
    No idea who this "Tee Jester" person is. Now nine (9) people have 500 or more records of which at least 5 are TG staffers. Patterson now at 374, Rocky Rose plummeted to 294, Todd at 252, Corcoran at 190

    Copy of TG leaderboard 3/27/10
    5669 - Duncan (!!)
    1645 - Magnus Anderson (!!)
    1123 - Mee (!!)
    921 - Flewin
    815 - Whelan
    UN-FREAKING-BELIEVABLE. How the HELL do these referees have the time to focus on their own scores ?? Also Magnus Anderson jumps to 1645 in 6 months time. Rodrigo now at 740. Matt Leto down to 272 and Todd down to 236. You need 221 to be in 25th so no more Corcoran as well

    Copy of TG leaderboard 4/26/10 - there is a reason I only skipped ahead one month
    5644 - Duncan
    1573 - Magnus
    1129 - Mee
    892 - Flewin
    Three (3) players have 1000 or more scores. 11 have 500 or more, and 25th place now 237 records. No idea how many Todd has as he is less than 25th place which is 237.

    Copy of TG leaderboard 4/27/10
    Wait...there is no more leaderboard !! 4/26/10 was the very last one.

    As you can see, Todd's climb largely stopped on or slightly after 10/12/04. THAT was when I estimate that Brien King built in the block on self-entry.

    My own MAME score increase was uploaded by Douglas MacGregor so they were not self-entered.

    Evidence of referee cross- verification clearly exists which is a whole different matter...where "Referee A" verifies scores from "Referee B" and vice versa, but this is a matter for separate consideration and discussion.

    Bottom line is, Corcoran was gone, and I know that I did not verify Todd's scores. POSSIBLY one of the Morrow brothers did but one of the scores was that 5M on NES "Donkey Kong" which to this day I have no idea who verified this and I strongly believe that Todd just cranked it in himself. I am willing to bet that he will say that he gave the tapes to Ron, Ron lost them, so Todd self-entered the score on those grounds.

  9. 01-29-2018, 04:36 AM
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    Summary Decision:

    Based on the complete body of evidence presented in this official dispute thread, Twin Galaxies administrative staff has unanimously decided to remove all of Todd Rogers’ scores as well as ban him from participating in our competitive leaderboards.

    We have notified Guinness World Records of our decision.

    In 1982, Activision verified and authenticated Todd Rogers’ Dragster score time of 5.51. They later published this score as being confirmed in their official newsletter.

    In 2001, the historic score was imported into the Twin Galaxies score database. The score was eventually recognized by Guinness World Records.

    On 8-11-2017 Twin Galaxies member Dick Moreland ( @D.B. Cooper ) officially disputed the validity of Todd Rogers’ Atari 2600 Dragster score time of 5.51 seconds on the basis of programmatically-demonstrated impossibility, citing the analysis and conclusion work of Eric Koziel ( @Omnigamer ) as supportive evidence for his claim.

    The presented software analysis model concluded that achieving score times of less than 5.57 seconds is not possible under standard and normal play conditions.

    Further evidence has been presented in this investigation from numerous credible sources confirming the veracity of this software model and analysis conclusion.

    The recent detailed first-person testimony provided by a former Twin Galaxies referee directly into this dispute thread has provided us additional reasoning for our ruling on this matter and has also given Twin Galaxies no reason to further explore any theoretical edge case exception scenarios regarding the software analysis conclusion that a 5.51 is impossible.

    Beyond the software analysis evidence, which speaks directly to Todd Rogers’ Dragster 5.51 score time, this dispute case has collected a significant amount of circumstantial evidence as that extends well beyond Todd’s single score performance.

    We have evaluated this evidence carefully and found it to be compelling and relevant.

    Throughout this investigation, Todd Rogers had the opportunity to answer questions and contribute.

    We cannot change Activision's acknowledgement of this score but we have an overall responsibility for gaming achievements and can no longer accept their historical records as the sole justification for scores set at the time. We were not there, can not find any of the evidentiary materials they used at the time to confirm the score, and could not find anyone who would on-the-record testify that they directly saw the evidence that was presented to Activision.

    Twin Galaxies would like to give a huge thank you to all involved in this dispute. Our community, the Speed Run community, @D.B. Cooper and @Omnigamer specifically and many many others have contributed tremendously and deserve proper and full recognition.

    This has been an ordeal, and like all things done for the first time, some things could perhaps have been handled better. This has been a learning process for Twin Galaxies. We care very much about our scoreboard integrity and will continue to improve it step-by-step, no matter how painful it might occasionally be.

    Twin Galaxies is dedicated to absolutely rooting out invalid scores from our historic database wherever we find them.

    Twin Galaxies’ recent efforts to build a dispute system for the purpose of allowing scores to be questioned in a centralized and documented manner have enabled all of the available evidence regarding Todd's Dragster score to finally, after many years, be concentrated, examined and discussed by non-anonymous members of the gaming community and Twin Galaxies administration. This system has created a permanent body of evidence for examination.

    Anyone looking into their own past with honesty and a desire to improve will likely find things potentially messy and uncomfortable. Twin Galaxies has definitely experienced some of that here with this dispute. However, Twin Galaxies understands that this is a required in order for it to continue its commitment to accuracy. Unfortunately this cannot occur overnight and must be a step-by-step process.

    We definitely know that many in the gaming community operate with a general urgency and would have preferred to see this matter resolved more swiftly.

    However, Twin Galaxies, as part of a comprehensive process and in its position of authority, must ensure due diligence. Our public documentation of our processes and conclusions are intended to satisfy scrutiny for the long term, so in instances where warranted our comprehensiveness must go above and beyond what would normally satisfy.

    Our methodic approach has allowed many things to surface, not only related to this specific score, but other scores as well as some previously never-before-discussed video game related history.

    The truth is the priority. That is the concern. Whatever it takes.

    Twin Galaxies continues to strive to earn and maintain trust over time by making supportable decisions and taking sensible actions.

    Twin Galaxies is also pleased to congratulate those who were the true champions all along, the 5.57 score holders!
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    Thanks again to all who contributed time, effort and expertise to this case.

    This dispute is ACCEPTED.

    -Twin Galaxies Administration
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