"Challenge System" ......

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  1. "Challenge System" ......

    08-15-2017, 02:40 PM
    Challenge System:

    I rarely weigh in on the operation of TG unless I feel there are sufficient concerns.

    In this case I believe there is not only a concern but an intrinsic flaw and a major danger to TG credibility.

    The move to a community system is understandable but certainly not as good paid referees. The community system creates the dangerous problem of non experts commenting or attempting to validate scores. I certainly wouldn't want a non Expert to judge expert level play.

    This system equates to a popularity system that can easily be manipulated by any group of people with a passion to promote themselves or to defame others.

    Now the TG community has created a "challenge system " that can remove historical scores. A poor business choice, far worse than the current popularity system.

    It is clearly known that over the years scores have been challenged in forums only later to be not only validated but exceeded.

    The recent challenge system implementation only serves to discredit Twin Galaxies and its historical adjudication process to the world.


    Lon McDonald
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  2. 08-15-2017, 03:37 PM
    Most scores that were removed from the TG database, or put into "hiatus mode", ended up never being re-instated.

    A select few that did (incl "Star Wars" TGTS 32M by David Palmer and "Spy Hunter" 9M by Paul Dean) were never beaten.

    In contrast, one in particular that was never re-instated ("Joust" 1.5M TGTS by Brett Watt or Watts) was since beaten by a modern era gamer...but that did in no way "validate" that earlier performance.

    The vast majority of scores that were removed were done with very good reason, including...

    "Donkey Kong" 5M (NES)
    "Frogger" 4M (Arcade)
    "Lunar Lander" 4K+ (Arcade)
    "Marble Madness" (the Stan Szypanski score)
    "Missile Command" 60M (Marathon by Roy Shildt)
    "Polaris" 700K+ (arcade)
    "Scramble" 8M (Arcade)
    "Spectar" 151K (Arcade)

    Removal of a score just because it seems unusually high as compared to all others is never sufficient for a score challenge.

    There are a few that to date no one has come close to, but it still does not mean that they were never done. Doesn't stop people from trying to disprove them, but a better format than "this seems high" has to exist.

    Cases in point...look at the long-standing TG records for "Cosmic Avenger" (arcade) and "Jump Bug" (arcade)...if I were a better player at each I would challenge both of these as being bogus. Still, I cannot disprove them with certainty, thus I've never launched a challenge to this day.
  3. 08-15-2017, 06:26 PM
    A few details lonnie that I dont know if they'll make a difference to you or if you'll dismiss them as semantics.

    1. The community didnt create the challenge system, jace did
    2. we cant remove scores, only the admin can. There are two steps, first we vote to remove it, then the admin determines if the vote is justified so there are two levels of protection. Under this system therefore it is even harder to remove a score under the judge system as it requires both a ref/judge/admin whatever term you like AND the community.
    Mr. Do's Castle champ
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    Other kid's games champ

    Adult Games: Street Fighter champ
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  4. 08-15-2017, 08:07 PM
    Snowflake said - "There are two steps, first we vote to remove it, "

    RTM REPLY - this glosses over that entire "first step" and marginalizes its ramifications.

    For starters, the two-phase process is pointless if there is at least no governance in place. Working backwards, that "second step" is neither a referee nor an auditor or even a fact-checker. They weigh the contributions, and if an incorrect challenge is set forth without anyone of knowledge on the matter providing details to the contrary, this "judge" will have little else to go by but one-side of the story.

    Now, you could argue that perhaps there is no worthwhile information to the contrary to provide...or you could equally argue that those with the specific knowledge to that effect were unaware of the debate-at-hand.

    Next, the entire challenge process culminates in the decision of ONE (1) person...and that is very problematic as even back-in-the-day there was at least a "Board of Referees" where all referees had the opportunity to chime in before a decision was made.

    But at the onset, there is no governance as to which score(s) can or cannot be challenged. At minimum...

    -> TG used to have an old policy that once challenged a score could not be re-challenged...I personally did not like that one for a number of reasons but at minimum the same BASIS for the challenge cannot be re-issued (i.e. a challenge as to the game settings...once resolved it should be a matter of record to that effect)

    -> A simplistic "this score is so much higher than the rest" is, by itself, insufficient. TG had that informal policy in place years ago, but it should be stated as part of the rules of governance for the process

    -> If validation calls for documentation that was sent in good faith to TG as part of the score validation process...documentation which TG has since lost or misplaced...onus of responsibility must fall within TG and not the gamer (i.e. you cannot expect the gamer to maintain a "copy" of all documentation...this is not an IRS audit nor does the submitter need to retain documentation ad-infinitum)

    Years back most submissions occurred on VHS tape, some occupying multiple tapes. While gamers had one (1) VCR, most did NOT have a second VCR for making secondary copies. Expecting someone to maintain in storage said copies for year-after year is unrealistic. Again, this is not the same as saving tax documentation for an IRS audit.

    -> Eventually, there will be a score challenge on a title that physically can no longer be contested due to age and physical breakdown. Arcade "Wheels" at ACAM is completely shot, and I do not know where another is located whether working or not. Should a score be challenged on such a title, the gamer would be unable to "re-game" in their defense.

    -> Same for a title that is so extremely rare that finding another one is next-to-impossible, such as a "Turbo Sub" or worst of all, titles like "Marble Madness 2" and "Bouncer" which most gamers will never see within their lifetime, neither the original stand-up nor on MAME. So challenging scores on extremely rare titles like these must include a caveat within the rules of governance to the effect that the challenged gamer MUST have, at minimum, the capacity to re-game should push come to shove, else it is pointless to challenge such a score as the challenge process cannot be a one-sided endeavour and outcome.

    -> Last but not least, eventually the gamer behind the score in question will have passed on. Years back (pre-2007) TG management made the decision to accept into the TG database a then-world record score of 4,660 on arcade "Depth Charge" by John Lawton, one of the co-founders of Funspot. The basis was the ONLY existing "proof" of that score...the badge that the Funspot staff who witnessed John set his mark at the time wrote the score on. There was no "video camera" recording this, and TG did not even exist back then. But the mark was his lifetime achievement on his favourite title, and TG agreed to accept the score.

    It has since been beaten, but I dare anyone to challenge the score of a gamer who passed on without iron-clad proof.

    Jace might have created the new version of the score challenge's in-line with the hands-off format of the Tribunal and certain other elements within the new TG site, letting the gamers decide as no referee-base exists...but it has no rules of governance and thus can lead us down a slippery slope depending on the nature of the challenge.
  5. 08-15-2017, 08:48 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
    Challenge System:
    The recent challenge system implementation only serves to discredit Twin Galaxies and its historical adjudication process to the world.
    Lon McDonald
    Are you a member of the USNVGT? The same organization that put out a statement today full of falsehoods about the challenge system? Did they send you over here to stir up trouble?

    Is there anything that Patrick Patterson touches that doesn't turn into something foul? He has the reverse midas touch.
    "May the Heavy Hand spare you" -- Datagod 1:19
    ~~ Strongest Punch on Twin Galaxies ~~

  6. 08-16-2017, 06:59 AM
    Why are we just complaining? I see no suggestions on how to work towards a unified goal.
    The Fisher King
  7. 08-16-2017, 09:19 AM
    Thank you Snowflake.

    I believe my post speaks for for itself but I appreciate your input.

    Robert has eloquently expanded on the subject.

    William M, how completely unprofessional.
    1. Your post adds nothing to the thread.

    2. I clearly posted the link that shows I am.
    I'm also an Inductee in the International VideoGame Hall of Fame.
    I have 10 businesses
    An IQ of 167.
    No one tells me what to do.

    3. Your constant disrespectful content, harassing , IP spoofing verge on Personal Terrorism.
    Its time you add a positive influence to the community vs self promotion and tearing other down.

    You our are better than that William. Your actions sadden me.

    4. Did you actually edit the USNVGT wiki and post a picture of you with BM?
    If so that is against the rules.

    I like the court of law hand on bible - " Do you swear to tell the truth , the WHOLE truth so help you God"

    You continually stir up issues with partial truths , they sound good enough to convince people till the entire story is heard.

    Shame on you for being unprofessional and encouraging others to bad behavior.
    Last edited by Lonnie; 08-16-2017 at 09:22 AM.
  8. 08-16-2017, 09:28 AM
    Lonnie you say your post speaks for yourself, but I'm trying not to assume. Your post was largely negative as are most of your posts your here. You do even acknowledge you only speak up when you think theres an issue with adressing -- which is fine, cant fix a problem without first adressing it. But when some of your info was off, I didnt know if you were speaking loosely and the discrepency was just semantics or if you were purposely misleading.

    more than half your statements were opinion words -- also fine, but the few things not opinion where either already known, or arguably wrong. For example, mentioning its just a popularity system. I mean sure, you could technicaly make that argument but you could likewise argue paid judges is just a favoritism system, and a panel is just popularity of the panel. You see the system is easy to abuse, but i'm not sure how easy it is. Remember when everyone hated rudy? We still treated him fairly. So I dont agree at all it easily abused or popularity. We vote based on our conscience. You may be able to find a few exception, the scoreboard's accepted and rejected threads speak for itself. Unpopular being getting scores accepted, popular people getting scores rejected.

    That said, the system certainly has imperfections, but I do think you should look within and consider you may have some biases here as a lot of your negativity isnt really based on fact.
    Mr. Do's Castle champ
    Lode Runner champ
    Other kid's games champ

    Adult Games: Street Fighter champ
  9. 08-16-2017, 09:31 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
    IP spoofing
    As smart as you are, you don't seem to know internet terms.
    "May the Heavy Hand spare you" -- Datagod 1:19
    ~~ Strongest Punch on Twin Galaxies ~~

    Likes Marcade liked this post
  10. 08-16-2017, 09:33 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
    4. Did you actually edit the USNVGT wiki and post a picture of you with BM?
    If so that is against the rules.
    If I did something that is against the rules, perhaps you should join wikipedia, explain that you are a member of the team, and then made any edits you would like to on that page. Oh wait, that would actually be against the rules. I am sure an anonymous IP user or two could help you there. No corruption or collusion there at all.
    "May the Heavy Hand spare you" -- Datagod 1:19
    ~~ Strongest Punch on Twin Galaxies ~~

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