Dispute: william rosa - M.A.M.E. - Space Tactics - Points - Player: Patrick Scott Patterson - Score: 49,300

Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. 11-18-2019, 04:57 PM
    There is a discussion in the TG archives between OriginalPSP and Builttofail about the playback problems with the INP file:

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...ics#post635287

    Seems like all are resigned in the thread that the INP file can't be rescued. I couldn't uncover any additional discussion about this specific submission.
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  2. 11-18-2019, 05:04 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES View Post
    We are not finding any definitive evidence supporting the dispute claim assertions at this time. If you can direct us to some, that would be helpful.
    as the evener points out with the thread, and as the initial dispute points out, playbacks of inp dont work with scores that high. though patrick claimed at first it played back, he then acknowledges it no longer does (i dont understand the claim it ever did, but whatever). If the inp does not support the score that was entered for it, then doesnt that show the proper verification was circumvented and someone just entered a referre's score despite the evidence not actually supporting the claimed score?
    i'm not saying patrick never achieved this score. i'm suggesting, that it appears there was no evidence for this score, yet someone entered it regardless.
    all the speculation of how the score got into the database in the first place, if the score does not match the evidence, doenst that validate the dispute claim?
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  3. 11-18-2019, 05:19 PM
    In the interest of full transparency, I re-reviewed datagod's submission package elements, including a link to a discussion about his Space Tactics submission, which included a post from OriginalPSP (via RTM):

    "3. Issues with scores were always discussed internally in the referee forums. I know these forums still exist, as there was a point of order some time back about someone getting hold of these. The game clearly has an issue with playback. The score I'd submitted for that game was multiple times higher than the replay showed. The policy at TG at that time was to accept troubled recordings or playbacks up until the point of failure. In this case, the referees chose to accept the final score that was shown in my playback file. Again, just to remind you, I was not on the staff at that time and had no input on their decision. The thread on this within the old internal referee forums will not only show the discussion on this, but it will also show the referee who verified and entered it at the time. I believe it was Terence O'Neil, but we're talking here about something I did on a lark 8 years ago here. I do recall the referee e-mailing me about the playback issues and their decision, but little more about it. If there is question on this - or any score from that era - odds are high those questions would be answered by a simple look by whoever has access to those archives."

    In the same spirit as sharing the INP file, could TG examine the Referee archives around the dates under consideration (April - May 2008) to confirm the recollection of OriginalPSP? Unfortunately, many TG policies from this time period were poorly articulated or not documented, but I'll do some digging to see if anything public was said about INP playback issues.
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  4. 11-18-2019, 06:21 PM
    If TG is able to look through the ref archive, that would be great. In the meantime, I’ll continue to look through the archives.


    One post I found that may be relevant is also from Builttofail, posted July 9, 2008. The context are TG members sharing proposals about keeping TG members up-to-speed on problem MAME submissions. In response to one proposal, Builttofail outlined the policy approach of MAME refs to problem playbacks: “At this moment though, there are no longer any "problem" scores awaiting decision. There may be some in the backlog that haven't been discovered yet, but none that we're currently already aware of. Also, it might not be too necessary since we send off an email to any player that has a score DQ'ed (unless it is for not sending the inp and wlf, or not zipping the files, in that case it is up to the ref to decide whether they want to send out an email). If a score is having playback problems we have three refs watch it to make sure they cant get it to work, and then we dq. That process generally doesn't take long.” A couple of other threads I read through also point to problem playback inp files being DQed. That said, I personally don’t have a reason to doubt OriginalPSP’s claim since he was a regular TG member at this time, but it would appear at this point that any acceptance of INP files up to the point of playback failure was the exception and not the rule.


    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthr...eue-discussion (see post #7)
  5. 11-18-2019, 10:20 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES View Post
    We are not finding any definitive evidence supporting the dispute claim assertions at this time. If you can direct us to some, that would be helpful.
    Thank you for uploading the INP file!!

    I played it multiple times using Wolfmame 1.06. As discussed earlier, there is a "de-sync" issue where the inputs read from the file do not properly re-create the game.

    This could be due to the game's RNG not starting with the same seed value on boot. It could be a bug with MAME. Whatever it is, it is fully re-createable.
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    INP does not playback correctly. PSP's claim that his score was verified by INP is false. This score is fake and should be removed from the database.
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  6. 11-18-2019, 10:27 PM
    Twin Galaxies, please play the file back yourself. Use Wolfmame 1.06 (as that was the only version accepted back in the day).

    You will see the game will end with varying scores.

    If you are unable to do that and see the problem, I can upload a video of me loading the game multiple times. I just have super slow upload speeds. Starlink will be here in a year, then I'll start kicking ass.
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  7. 11-18-2019, 10:38 PM
    i'm trying to learn the diplomatic, pedantic, 100% sureness before accusations way of speaking better.

    We can not be sure the score, however, we can be sure the proper verification method was not used. There is just no way referees watched the inp to get the entered score. Even if the score was real, it wasnt found from the inp. we also know the score wasnt perfromed in person based on the threads the evener found. so inp was what was used to submit, yet that very inp could not verify the above score. It does not seem possible that the person who entered the score actually followed the proper protocol on the score entry.
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  8. 11-18-2019, 10:40 PM
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    Here you see PSP saying the referee "opted to post muh score at the point of the replay glitch". This is incorrect. The replay de-sync issues appear to be random. My guess is there are certain randomizers in the game that cause the game to play differently despite the same input from the user.

    Even so, when I replay the INP I get a wide range of scores. Play back is unreliable.
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  9. 11-18-2019, 11:20 PM
    For clarification purposes, the claim needs to re-stated or verified by the claimant.

    Is the below statement the current claim?

    "The score in the database is invalid because the INP it is supported by cannot be successfully played back with a consistent outcome, therefore it is not possible for the record in the database to be accurately verified based on the INP."

    Please confirm that this is the claim - or provide your own statement of claim so that Twin Galaxies can come to a determination of the claim's veracity.

    Thank you.
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  10. 11-18-2019, 11:34 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by TWIN GALAXIES View Post
    For clarification purposes, the claim needs to re-stated or verified by the claimant.

    Is the below statement the current claim?

    "The score in the database is invalid because the INP it is supported by cannot be successfully played back with a consistent outcome, therefore it is not possible for the record in the database to be accurately verified based on the INP."

    Please confirm that this is the claim - or provide your own statement of claim so that Twin Galaxies can come to a determination of the claim's veracity.

    Thank you.
    yes, i had to reread it a few time -- long sentences can be tough, and for some weird reason i struggled with this one:) -- but yes, that is the claim.
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