Dispute: John McAllister - Arcade - Stargate - Points [Tournament] - Player: Bill Jones - Score: 284,975

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  1. Dispute: John McAllister - Arcade - Stargate - Points [Tournament] - Player: Bill Jones - Score: 284,975

    08-18-2017, 04:10 PM
    Arcade - Stargate - Points [Tournament]
    Track
    https://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=1501
    Rules
    Extra Ship Every: 0 No Extra Ships
    Ships for 1 Credit Game: 5
    Ships for 2 Credit Game: 7
    Free Play: No
    Master Difficulty Control: 3
    Intial Difficulty: 5 Moderate
    Maximum Difficulty: 30 Moderate
    1st Wave of Accelerated Difficulty: 0
    Last Wave of Accelerated Difficulty: 0
    Difficulty Acceleration Rate: 0 Moderate
    Inviso Time Per Ship: 10
    Men Needed To Warp: 4
    Last Wave Warp Allowed: 10
    Player Name
    Bill Jones
    Original Adjudication
    N/A
    Verification Method
    DVD
    Verification Date
    2008-09-14
    Disputed Score
    284,975 (Rank 1)
    Disputed By
    redelf
    Dispute Evidence / Rationale
    Score was done via baiter hunting so should be moved to another track.
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  2. 08-18-2017, 04:56 PM
    @Ripper

    Stephen Boyer,

    You were reportedly the referee that verified the videos for Bill Jones' Stargate and Defender records in 2008.

    Can you comment on whether Baiter-hunting was employed?

    Do you know where the videos would be now?
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  3. 08-19-2017, 04:53 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Blastaar View Post
    @Ripper

    Stephen Boyer,

    You were reportedly the referee that verified the videos for Bill Jones' Stargate and Defender records in 2008.

    Can you comment on whether Baiter-hunting was employed?

    Do you know where the videos would be now?
    At the time, the submitting gamer had the right to keep their game play hidden from the public to hide the secrets they developed. It was actually my duty as a TG referee to respect this and keep my word to never let out secrets and strategies, which I did the entire time I was a TG referee. I never let out anyone's secrets from any submission. I prided myself on that fact! Believe me, people TRIED to get me to talk too. I won't mention any names and it wasn't just the Defender score but other scores / games over the years. Anyway, as we all know, it's totally different now with your peers verifying scores and world records. IMO, what should have been done back when this score was submitted and verified is to keep the video private as that was the rules in those days but possibly let all the other Defender players who was shooting for this WR score know that Baiter-Hunting was an accepted tactic and allowed as Bill did indeed Baiter-Hunt to achieve his WR score. The thing is, at the time, NOBODY asked about it. I can't verify a WR score and then go tell other gamer's "Hey, try Baiter-Hunting." I would have said YES, it's allowed if anyone would have asked me at the time. Instead I got tons of questions about the color roms, could I send them a picture of the PCB he used and the dip settings, etc.

    As for the video now... I believe either David Nelson or the current TG owner at that time wanted me to send them the video DVD. They wanted it ASAP with no delays. I tried to copy the DVD for my records but it kept failing. It wasn't just a video you could copy, from what I can remember, but it's been so long ago that I'm not real sure. Eventually, after getting frustrated, and because they wanted the video so quickly, I just packed it up and sent it to them. Now it's in limbo I guess?
    Stephen K. Boyer
    Former Twin Galaxies Sr. Referee
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Mario Bros. 2-Player Team: 1,517,380 ( Arcade Medium World Record )
    Mario Bros. 2-Player Team: 788,970 ( Arcade Medium NO POW World Record )
    Mario Bros. Single Player MEDIUM 4,260,210 ( MAME World Record )
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  4. 08-19-2017, 06:59 AM
    @Dave Hawksett

    I don't see what more investigation is needed.

    The Powers That Be just need to decide what to do.
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  5. 08-19-2017, 07:01 AM
    We need to see more votes on this dispute before taking any action.

    Thanks
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  6. 08-19-2017, 09:26 AM
    Thanks for responding so quickly on this matter Stephen.

    The reason that most players asked about the roms and other types of stuff related to the submission was that most of us believed that baiter hunting was a form of leeching. And as we know leeching is not allowed on most games. I still believe that baiter hunting should come under these rules of leeching and therefore not be allowed on this track. By allowing the baiter hunting technique TG ruined both the Defender Track and Stargate track. Getting these scores removed would bring back some competition on these tracks again. I know that I could have beaten the Defender score with baiter hunting but I wasn't going to use a banned technique to do it.

    If TG would set up a leeching track for these scores and then move those scores over that would be great.
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  7. 08-19-2017, 10:21 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
    Bill did indeed Baiter-Hunt to achieve his WR score. The thing is, at the time, NOBODY asked about it. I can't verify a WR score and then go tell other gamer's "Hey, try Baiter-Hunting." I would have said YES, it's allowed if anyone would have asked me at the time.
    This is good enough for me for my "yes" vote, straight talk from a reputable past referee!
    Now if the rules said "leeching is allowed", than that would be a valid tactic. (Of course, it doesnt say that)
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  8. 08-19-2017, 10:32 AM
    I agree that two tracks would be best for this. The current track rules should be modified to explicitly say no baiter hunting/leeching, the new track should explicitly say that baiter hunting/leeching is allowed.
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  9. 08-19-2017, 10:36 AM
    This sounds like a reasonable solution. We will discuss.
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  10. 08-19-2017, 12:39 PM
    At the time I received this video I totally asked the upper or peer referees first before accepting the submission as it did seem like leeching but there was such a debate at the time, on the forums and in house and they all said it was legit and should be accepted. However, a bit later I've pretty much felt the same way you guys feel that it should not be totally removed but just moved over to a acceptable leeching / baiter hunting track. Even for a leeching track it's a decent score to shoot for, right?
    Stephen K. Boyer
    Former Twin Galaxies Sr. Referee
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Mario Bros. 2-Player Team: 1,517,380 ( Arcade Medium World Record )
    Mario Bros. 2-Player Team: 788,970 ( Arcade Medium NO POW World Record )
    Mario Bros. Single Player MEDIUM 4,260,210 ( MAME World Record )
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