Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800


Members banned from this thread: Almighty Dreadlock


Is this a valid dispute?

    This poll is closed
This poll is closed
  1. 04-04-2018, 03:28 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Welp View Post
    Billy's team can't even invent a working direct feed setup! I think hacking a PCB might be a bit beyond their technical abilities.
    Mitchell and his camp are a bigger joke than Todd Rogers!


    john

    .
    Likes Hakym liked this post
  2. 04-04-2018, 04:20 AM
    This is why if I ever start submitting recordings of high scores here (I've gotten over double of a high score here on a certain game so I could EASILY have a number one spot here if I really wanted it) I'm going to make sure that my hands/control panel are well in view with the monitor in the recording....lol.
    Likes JWJr liked this post
  3. 04-04-2018, 04:30 AM
    One thing we can do while we wait for a ruling is look more closely at the evidence at hand.

    While watching

    "Jace Hall - Twin Galaxies - Review of Billy Mitchell's Donkey Kong tape Livestream", there was a concern about the 1UP flashing for too long.

    It happened at
    in the video while reviewing the 1.05M tape.

    I too was curious about it so I went ahead an plotted the brightness of the 1UP over time for the 1.05M and 1.04M direct-feed recordings (thank goodness they are publicly available on youtube.) Even low resolution video at 30 frames per second is plenty of data to make this type of chart.

    My apologies if all this has been covered before and I'm just adding to the noise.

    Executive summary: I found a few things of note, but your mileage may vary.

    1. I found the prolonged flashing 1UP that we already knew about in the 1.05M video, and a close cousin to it, and
    2. In the 1.04M video I found a shortened HOW HIGH CAN YOU GO screen which was quite surprising, but it's such an obvious edit point I'm guessing someone else has already seen it.
    3. In the 1.05M video it starts with a credit and still has a credit when the game is over.
    4. The VHS glitches seem to be concentrated at the end of the 1.04M tape.

    If you're still here, you're about to dive into the minutia -- come on in, the water's warm. And if you don't want the details, skip the rest.

    1. First of all, the 1.05M direct feed.

    The direct feed is viewable here:


    Chart of 1UP flashing: https://svgshare.com/i/673.svg
    (BILLY-MITCHELL-1.05M-DK:21:4:82:15:133:Y0ZKEGZpggI.svg)

    The overall brightness changes a lot over time, but the relative brightness of the flashing 1UP can be seen as a regular up and down signal in the chart.

    Have a scroll through the svg and look for anything that looks out of place. It's easy to spot anything strange because of the regularity, and it's a whole lot less time-intensive than staring at a flashing 1UP.

    Then to get the number of seconds into the video that a particular frame is, use this calculation:
    NumberOfSeconds = FrameNumber / (30000/1001)

    And to see it in youtube just add "&t=NumberOfSeconds" to the youtube link. You can do it!

    The prolonged flash that was highlighted in Jace's review video can be seen just after 194400 in the chart and
    in the direct feed video. It stands out even if you're not looking for it.

    On this tape, the chart has "speed bumps" and "potholes" that show where the boards start. They all happen during a HOW HIGH CAN YOU GET. Very little else of note happens in the chart other than these events, except for general brightenings due to slow dark/bright diagonal bands, and a single VHS glitch.

    Other notable events:

    19900,

    A typical speed bump. Some speed bumps are much bigger than others.

    41500,

    A typical pothole.

    111100,

    A VHS glitch on first hammer of barrel board. There could be other VHS glitches, but none that affect the flashing 1UP.

    132200,

    It's similar to the event at 194400 in terms of how the chart looks, but it doesn't look the same in the video. They are both speed bumps going into pie factory boards.

    See the full audit here: https://pastebin.com/aL78Qi69

    Here's a chart of where the events lie in relation to each other: http://svgshare.com/s/66e

    You might notice that the speed bumps and potholes are pretty consistent across the whole run except for the beginning. Are we seeing evidence of something other than the start of a board? I don't think so, but what do you think?

    If you want to help out, you can edit the svg file to have arrows pointing to events provided by the full audit.

    Also I noticed that the game starts with a credit and ends with a credit. Has somebody already noticed/looked-into this?


    2. Second of all, the 1.04M direct feed.

    The direct feed is viewable here:


    Chart of 1UP flashing: https://svgshare.com/i/678.svg
    (BILLY-MITCHELL-1.04M-DK:19:5:90:23:133:KYtJzRcvOzk.svg)

    If you think this dispute thread is a poopshow, try looking at the VHS glitches on this recording.

    The 1.04M direct feed doesn't have as many speed bumps and potholes as the 1.05M tape, and the overall brightness is a lot more consistent even though it is also a recording of a TV playing a video. There are some still lots of speed bumps though. I suppose more potholes are there too, but I didn't look too closely for them.

    Anyway, this video has the same framerate as 1.05M, so the calculation is the same:
    NumberOfSeconds = FrameNumber / (30000/1001)

    Okay, let's can through the chart and look for events.

    There are no prolonged flashes of 1UP in this video, and the only events in the chart seem to be VHS glitches.

    Notable events:

    214000,

    A shortened HOW HIGH CAN YOU GO screen, and the angle of the screen changes.
    It sure looks like an edit point, and I suspect that it's been seen or explained before.

    Here is the span of events for speed bumps and potholes:
    http://svgshare.com/s/65C

    The VHS warpings were audited separately. I don't think I captured all of them here, but if they interacted strongly with the 1UP flasher, I probably did. They really stick out as jagged lines on the chart.

    First of all, there seem to be more warpings at the end than the start.
    http://svgshare.com/s/667

    Name:  chart.png
Views: 338
Size:  10.7 KB

    More than half of all VHS glitches are on the barrel board. But is half of all gameplay on the boarrel board too? I don't know.

    I don't know what makes these VHS glitches appear. Tracking is one thing, and tape fatigue is another, but I am not an expert.

    Here is the full audit: https://pastebin.com/re13Hy76

    3. Conclusions

    If the 1UP were not being saved in a save state in MAME, and these recordings employ the restoring of save states then we would expect to have some double wide 1UPs in either the on or the off position (and everything in between, but the double wide would be easy to spot). With the possible exception of 1 or 2 events, we don't see that here.

    The shortened HOW HIGH CAN YOU GO screen is a concern. Future work should go back and measure the duration of each of these screens in both videos and look for similar events... but I suspect that this particular event is well known already.

    The distribution of VHS glitch events on the 1.04M recording seems normal, but I'm not sure.

    Here is the script I used to make the charts: https://pastebin.com/nR3MVFhS

    Sorry about the extra image on the end here. I can't delete attachments.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
  4. 04-04-2018, 05:11 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by FBX View Post
    Nobody is saying they don't have a right. And of course Jace could very well just decide to never remove the scores and we'd have no recourse because that is his right. What I'm trying to get across is that there's legit criticism over allowing stalling tactics when we were given a time frame with a reasonable expectation of a final answer. So now that we have to wait another week, what about the week after that? Or after that?

    If there's now no end date to this dispute, I'd at least like for Jace to make a comment on that so we can all move on.
    i agree FBX. And while the stalling occurs Billy was in Iowa at a premiere of Ready Player One. I’m guessing (but feel confident) that Billy was flown out there and put up in a hotel and he didn’t have to pay a dime. This is why we should have a decision for sure next week AND Jace should send out a press release on allthis to MAJOR news outlets. Billy Mamechell whoring his celebrity around the country when he is really a cheater needs to be shut down.
  5. 04-04-2018, 05:47 AM
    "214000,

    A shortened HOW HIGH CAN YOU GO screen, and the angle of the screen changes.
    It sure looks like an edit point, and I suspect that it's been seen or explained before."


    Wow, that is a massive cut in continuity.
    Thanks YesAffinity thanked this post
    Likes aranthorn, bensweeneyonbass liked this post
  6. 04-04-2018, 06:02 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by benasselstine View Post
    One thing we can do while we wait for a ruling is look more closely at the evidence at hand.

    While watching

    "Jace Hall - Twin Galaxies - Review of Billy Mitchell's Donkey Kong tape Livestream", there was a concern about the 1UP flashing for too long.

    It happened at
    in the video while reviewing the 1.05M tape.
    Oh wow, Jace says "It instantly becomes 711 from 707" ... BUT it doesn't quite. Check this out, go to the 3:28:37 link above, and maneuver to right to the end of 3:28:32. Now you can use comma (,) and fullstop (.) to scroll back and forth between individual frames, or watch in super-slow motion.

    At 3:28:32 the score shows 707800. Advance ahead and the 1UP flashes on and off. A couple of frames later there is a single frame showing 1UP and a score of 711400. The frame after that the 1UP has gone and the score is down to 707800! The next frame has the score back up to 711400 and the 1UP coming back! The high score goes up and down too.

    I was NOT expecting to see that. Hard to find an explanation for that, my guess is use of MAME save-states but then using video editing software to splice the 'good bits' together.

    Awesome post benasselstine, I would encourage those keen to contribute to have a look through what benasselstine has posted and see if you can find other oddities.
  7. 04-04-2018, 06:07 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by benasselstine View Post
    One thing we can do while we wait for a ruling is look more closely at the evidence at hand.
    This, my friend, is how to do it. Excellent analysis!

    I, for one, also really appreciate you including the bash script you used to generate the plots, as I'm (thanks to you) now interested in doing some further analysis. I can't guarantee how much time I'll have this week, but I'll do what I can.
    Thanks YesAffinity thanked this post
    Likes benasselstine, Rev John liked this post
  8. 04-04-2018, 06:08 AM
    I didn't keep up with this thread over Easter but now I'm catching up and there's a few things I wanted to comment on, so please bear with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by FBX View Post
    Point being, this guy in my opinion deserves the same punishment as Todd got. Full stripping of records and titles with TG, and permanent banning.
    A few people have mentioned this a few times - this would be an hysterical overreaction. In the case of Todd Rogers every single one of his TG scores came into question, right back to his earliest, due in large part to the unique circumstances of their entry (he put them in himself). There are only 3 scores of Billy's in question - his latest three. No one is disputing any of the scores earlier than that. He did them. Not even Lance Armstrong (to return to the much-compared figure in this thread) had his achievements expunged from prior to 1999.

    Definitely strike off the three disputed scores. Maybe banning future submissions is in order, that'd be up to Jace and TG, really. I suspect it'd be academic anyway - I seriously doubt Billy Mitchell is capable of competing at all (hence the dispute).

    Quote Originally Posted by FBX View Post
    It's in the face of the transition screens themselves. We already know MAME draws transition screens entirely different than arcade from thge very first screen caps submitted for evidence. It didn't require spending weeks of testing wild goose chases to be able to identify the blatantly obvious.
    Sorry to pick on you, FBX, but you do seem to get strident and allow your emotions to get ahead of you in this thread. Jace replied pretty well:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall View Post
    No. We did not know this for certain.
    A lot of people just took Xelnia's evidence package at face value. He could have made the whole thing up. He could have had an axe to grind with Billy and an open account with Adobe Creative Cloud burning a hole in his monitor. Of course I'm not saying he did at all, but when that package dropped at the start of February, none of us knew any better. This entire method of transition frame comparison with MAME is completely new, there could have been any number of problems with it and it all had to be checked. There still could be issues brought up, but with each new test and verification it becomes that much less likely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiden View Post
    Your assertion that you need a “definitive fact” and that onus is on TG or the community is flawed though. The burden should lay with the party that would like to have their score recorded. Billy is not (from what I can see) coming forward to state how he recorded the score and why the anomalies are present in the footage. To me, I believe that the system should be that Person A submits score, TG accepts after review, if Person B challenges with evidence that is deemed credible, Person A concisely responds or the score is removed. If Person A has had multiple challenges that were not answered timely or still deemed as fraudulent then they should be banned for life.
    The thing you have to understand here is that Billy's score(s) have already been accepted. As such, the default position has to be that extraordinary evidence needs to be provided for them to be taken down. I think you'll find that the current system for TG accepting scores is much more like what you described, but many of these disputed scores were submitted under an entirely different regime, which is partly the problem, but it would also be severely unfair to all those who submitted legitimate scores in good-faith under the old rules to have them wholesale called into question under a presumption of guilt.

    Quote Originally Posted by JJT_Defender View Post
    Jace Hall a Few questions Besides the Obvious.

    1. On the Billy Mitchell Complete Game Video of Arcade Donkey Kong Score of 1,062,800.

    1.Does it Show in the Background People going by, Multiple Flashing Lights, Other Arcade Games Behind and on the Sides of the when he was Playing,

    2. Was their Audio in the Video Completed Game Play of DK like People Talking, Announcements on the Loud Speaker, Kids Playing, Music that it was Played at Boomers

    Or does the Billy Mitchell's Arcade DK Completed Game Play Video is in the Dark then without Question he Played at Home in a Dark Room.

    Therefore it would clearly be a a Lie that Billy Mitchell Played to a Million Points + in a Public Venue at Boomers in Dania Bch, Florida then he played at home.



    3.If you Jace and your Team and with a $6000.00 dollar Analyze Machine could not find a way Duplicate what Billy Mitchell Recorded and Many Others like Chris Glee with Many Countless Variations have Tried to show how VHS Can be Manipulated to Like MAME but is ARCADE Duplicated Exactly.

    How Can you Not agree with all that Evidence?


    Joel West and Carlos let ALL Twin Galaxy Members See it as well As all your findings Plus the Completed Video Of Billy Mitchells Donkey Score of 1,062,800 so We Verify and See for Ourselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by JJT_Defender View Post
    Jace Hall Please Let ALL Twin Galaxy Members See all your findings Plus the Completed Video Of Billy Mitchells Donkey Score of 1,062,800 so We can Verify and See for Ourselves.


    2. Was their Audio in the Video Completed Game Play of DK like People Talking, Announcements on the Loud Speaker, Kids Playing, Music that it was Played at Boomers

    Or does the Billy Mitchell's Arcade DK Completed Game Play Video is in the Dark then without Question he Played at Home in a Dark Room.

    Therefore it would clearly be a a Lie that Billy Mitchell Played to a Million Points + in a Public Venue at Boomers in Dania Bch, Florida then he played at home.
    You seem to be operating under the mis-apprehension that Billy Mitchell's 1.062 million score was a video submission. Go and have a look here: https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/do...allowed/page/1

    It's a refereed submission. There is no publicly available video of the score performance known to exist. TG does not have any copy of it. The only evidence that there is a recording of it is a few clips of video taken from the International Video Game Hall of Fame event about a week later where Billy Mitchell presented the direct feed recording playing on a TV screen.
  9. 04-04-2018, 06:24 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Rev John View Post
    At 3:28:32 the score shows 707800. Advance ahead and the 1UP flashes on and off. A couple of frames later there is a single frame showing 1UP and a score of 711400. The frame after that the 1UP has gone and the score is down to 707800! The next frame has the score back up to 711400 and the 1UP coming back! The high score goes up and down too.
    Confirmed! Wow, indeed. Good eye. At first I thought I'd be saying, "yeah, but maybe Jace was jogging the tape...", except his hands are visibly off the desk, held high in the air. Might still be wise for Jace to confirm this with another quick step through those frames, but still.

    If that is actually on the tape, this would be hard evidence of (at least) some digital frame buffering, correct? Maybe we're thinking save state or splice, since the TWO-BIT board does not buffer (and hence could not send frames out of order). But could a (dodgy) TV capture driver (or video player) be responsible? Or did we actually rule out the possibility of digital video recording and playback to VCR since that was not what the score submission specified? I'm just trying to understand the possibilities here.

    That said, if it is some artifact of digital video recording and playback, the odds of that happening exactly once would be exceedingly slim. Perhaps I can do a frame-by-frame score plot and look for any other decreases in score (along with a frame count analysis of all 1-UP flashes). Will require a bit of machine learning to recognize the digits in the score through all of the sync and video fuzz, but it doesn't have to be perfect since it'd just be a tool to point us humans at a timestamp for closer inspection.
    Likes Rev John, portmanteau liked this post
  10. 04-04-2018, 06:50 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by DustPuzzle View Post
    ...



    A few people have mentioned this a few times - this would be an hysterical overreaction. In the case of Todd Rogers every single one of his TG scores came into question, right back to his earliest, due in large part to the unique circumstances of their entry (he put them in himself). There are only 3 scores of Billy's in question - his latest three. No one is disputing any of the scores earlier than that. He did them. Not even Lance Armstrong (to return to the much-compared figure in this thread) had his achievements expunged from prior to 1999.
    ....
    I dont know if you purposely exagerating, but both literally as well as substantially your comparison to todd is incorrect. Todd did NOT have "every single one" of his scores in question, in fact, though he had many challenged, percentage wise todd had less suspicious scores than billy. Yes, billy only has 3 being challenged, but thats about 50% of all his scores. If finding issue with less than 10% of todd's scores justifies a complete strip, I think its weird to say billy's 50% is somehow less of an issue than todds 10%.
    now, its true todd's self entering was cited, and that could put all his scores in question, but other refs self entered too and are still on the board, so self entering alone does not put things in question. problem scores do. considering team billy's response and years of deception, combined with the only reason to believe his old scores is trust of him and his buddy witnsses who have shown us how to view thier witness testimony i would see billy and his teams actions have put doubt on all his scores as well. without video evidence its really hard for me to believe billy accomplished any score he claims to have accomplished. The only thing being on the scoreboard means in billy's case is that he was able to get his pals to put the socre on the board for him
    If you have enjoyed this comment please consider clicking the "like" button
    Thanks Prophecyrob thanked this post
    Likes Rev John, bensweeneyonbass liked this post
Page 263 of 378 FirstFirst ... 163 213 253 261 262 263 264 265 273 313 363 ... LastLast
Results 2,621 to 2,630 of 3771
Page 263 of 378 FirstFirst ... 163 213 253 261 262 263 264 265 273 313 363 ... LastLast
Join us