Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. 08-28-2017, 08:05 PM
    Subscribing to thread
  2. 08-28-2017, 08:23 PM
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    I am sure that the DK community experts will have their say with this one.
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  3. 08-28-2017, 08:49 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by DadsGlasses View Post
    In the interview video, Billy states that Todd recorded the entire game. He points to a garbage bag that supposedly contains the tapes. Just to be clear, are you saying that those tapes were never reviewed and that the score was based solely on Todd & MorningDove's viewing of the game? I just want to make sure I'm understanding the Dispute claims. Thanks.
    I'm not convinced any thing was put on tape at Boomers. I believe it was added to the leaderboard based solely on Todd and MorningDove being witnesses. In the video that Robert F. posted above (Billy Mitchell Makes Announcement), Billy implies that the videos in front of him are the games he played at Boomers. If that's true, then it raises even more questions. Those videos appear to be the same type of "direct feed" videos Billy used for his 1.047M and 1.05M scores. There is nothing in the Board Swap video (or the other Boomers videos) to indicate that any type of direct capture setup is being used. I don't know for sure, but I was under the impression that this type of recording was banned by TG at one point...before or after Billy's last submission, I don't know.
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  4. 08-28-2017, 08:57 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert.F View Post
    The video clearly shows a Donkey Kong Jr pcb , Bering removed and the same Donkey Kong Jr pcb being put back in to the cabinet ,, to a UN-trained train eye Dk and DKjr look the same and in fact they are vary similar, except for a few noticeable differences...

    the DK pcb has white text on the pcb and the Dk jr has banana yellow text printed on the board ,, the DK pcb is 1/2 digital and 1/2 Analog sound and there is a adjustment pot on the dk pcb for the Analog sound`s, The Dk Jr board is fully digital and has no Analog sound adjustment pot in the exact same position on the dkjr board, and the 3rd noticeable differences and you will see; it if you review the video carefully Dk has the same ROM socket lay out and the same number of sockets as a Dkjr pcb ,, But DKjr has one of them ROM socket empty ,,,,,, as i pointed out to the man, who is in the video (telling him he was lying), saying he was pulling out a DK pcb first in the video in the comments; he deleted my comments and remove the audio and replace it with music ,,, so no one would ever hear him make that clam of pulling out a DK pcb first,,, but it was to late i recorded the video before he could remove the audio and cover up his statements,,,, Nixon try this trick deleting 18 mins of tape and look what happen to him :) i just saying
    Robert has given permission to post a video he made for Hank Chien and Steve Wiebe illustrating the problems with the Board Swap Video:

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  5. 08-28-2017, 09:54 PM
    wow i don`t remember making that video that was 7 years ago :)
  6. 08-29-2017, 12:52 AM
    Board Swap video: pretty straightforward... there's no Donkey Kong PCB and there is clear intent to deceive. That alone is enough to demonstrate the involved parties are willing to be dishonest. Billy states he doesn't know how to swap PCBs. There's also no obvious recording equipment.

    Billy Mitchell Speaks video: the title is misleading as it suggests the video was taken "moments" after the DK record had fallen, but DK Jr. is the game in the background and Billy speaks as though he's already achieved both scores. That's fine. Late in the video I can see something that looks like a laptop setup next to the cabinet... maybe it's their recording equipment?

    New DK Jr. Record video: Todd, the verifying referee, does not know the final score nor is he aware it's impossible to score 50 points in DK Jr. Billy has to stare off into space when asked for the final score, when the much easier method for recalling the score would be to turn around and look at the monitor, which should/could still have the score displayed. It sure looks like Billy intentionally blocks the monitor when the cameraman approaches. Both records are apparently on tape at this point despite the tech who was previously required to swap PCBs having just arrived on the scene. Perhaps the recording of a direct feed was previously setup by the tech before he went home to sleep? There's also a Youtube comment on this video from someone who claims to have been there and never saw Billy break 400K.

    Billy Mitchell Makes Announcement video: the first and only public showing of the score in question. Clearly this is a direct feed recording. Billy claims up to 100 onlookers witnessed his score.

    2013 SDCC video (
    a staged event wherein Billy claims to have been on WR pace when by pure accident the cord to his DK machine got pulled. Totally fake, and regardless of its possibly good-natured intent, again demonstrates Billy's willingness to misrepresent the facts.

    1.05 Direct Feed video (
    without access to the 1.06 tape this video is the only way we can examine any possible improprieties in Billy's direct feed recording method. There's plenty of oddities in this video, namely the constant flickering, consistent contrast change that occurs at the end of most levels (after the rivet boards), and the altogether low skill level on display -- it looks like someone playing at 1.1+ pace who doesn't know how to play at 1.1+ pace and at one point late in the game there's a death that is inconceivable by 1.1+ standards, meaning an action is taken that would never ever be taken by a legitimate 1.1 player.

    Demonstrating the 1.05 direct feed to be doctored is the only way we'll be able to concretely prove Billy is a cheater. The other videos, while very suggestive, will never get this score removed. But even if the 1.05 cannot be proven to have been falsified, at the very least this 1.06 score will forevermore be asterisked. The "No Direct Feed" rule was put in place after the controversy over this 1.06 score came to light and was instated at the behest of modern DK players to prevent further shenanigans from Billy.

    Further controversy exists around every 1 million score Billy has ever submitted. Be sure to check out the DKF "Strange Scores" thread for more information: http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=1610.0
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  7. 08-29-2017, 02:23 AM
    And here's the tape from King of Kong, another suspicious direct feed score.:
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  8. 08-29-2017, 03:54 AM
    Xelnia, I am very quickly learning that there is a lot of TG history to catch up on.

    I reviewed the messages in the threads you posted - Classic Arcade Gaming (CAGDC), and Donkey Kong forum as well as the three videos.

    The principal interest in this score from the two links you provided seem to pivot on whether the scores were performed "live" or not. I gather that there was added prestige when making new records in public (live) venues in front of people watching the game play.

    In the video "Billy Mitchell speaks (july,2010) moments after breaking donkey kong record," DK Jr is plainly visible (albeit very briefly) on the DK cabinet at the 2:01 mark. Title chosen by uploader is unambiguous, but could have been recorded after DK Jr run and given wrong title.

    Posters at the DK forum and here plainly assert that the alleged DK PCB to DK Jr PCB "swap" depicted in the "Board Swap" video was DK Jr in both instances.

    The videos show that two referees were on-hand to witness these world records, including Todd Rogers. According to the video, Pete of Twin Galaxies was informed about the feats and was on his way down to the venue, although it's unclear why since everything seems "wrapped up" and we're told Todd has the video tapes.

    The score was subsequently entered into the TG database as verified by "Referee."

    I agree that events depicted in the videos - usually a high point for both the player and those gamers who gathered around to watch - seem a bit off. In fact, the most celebrated moment - flaunting your new world record for the camera while it's still on the game screen - isn't done for either DK or DK Jr records.

    Given the suggestion that the videos of these two WRs are direct feeds (notwithstanding questions about equipment), it makes more sense that these supplementary videos were taken with the goal of establishing "real time" that the direct feed videos were done in a live venue, including documenting the high scores - although verbally communicated in each instance (hence the banter about sleeping in and being late, rushing down to take the video, Pete is on his way, etc). If so, one could reasonably expect that the videos would also document elements required by for a TG submission. The TG wall post is 2017, but the requirements sound like they were written many years ago - at least 2011, I presume before then as well as documented here:



    Historically, the submission requirements for DK are one of the most strict for any game tracked by TG, maybe without exception.

    Based on what I've seen, if this was a submission package, it would be rejected on the basis of the PCB issue alone. But since this is score is already in the database as verified by Referee, I think that we're now left to examine if the score is plausible by the player in question. At least, that's my understanding from earlier comments in different dispute threads. For the sake of argument, what if a player went through the trouble of creating a narrative that they achieved a high score in a public venue, but actually submitted to a referee a video of a high score achievement recorded weeks earlier at a private venue? In that scenario, the score actually "happened," but not according to how the player publicly explained. In reviewing a subsequent dispute, would we reject the score based on the supplementary videos, or would we set aside that issue and satisfy ourselves that the score was legitimate from the view that it was achieved by the player?
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  9. 08-29-2017, 04:09 AM
    Currently Playing: Front Page Sports baseball '98 (PC) (using custom built 2017 rosters)
  10. 08-29-2017, 04:39 AM
    Okay, based on the discussion in other dispute threads, I overstepped in proposing that our next task was to view the score as plausible.

    Here are some quotes from Jace Hall that are pertinent:

    "The fact that you now don't have access to evidence of the score occurring does not mean that there never was evidence of the score occurring.

    The data entry into the Twin Galaxies database suggests that there was evidence at that time.

    Only speculation suggests that there wasn't.

    Prove that it never took place and that will prove the score guilty.

    The fact that you don't have access to proof that it took place does not mean it did not happen."
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