Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

Is this a valid dispute?

    This poll is closed
This poll is closed
  1. 03-12-2018, 05:51 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Asterra View Post
    As another person already submitted, this suggestion, which has been made in this thread before, has problems.

    * It has nothing to do with this dispute.

    * It has nothing to do with the evidence of MAME present on the tapes of the two scores for which tapes at least exist.

    * Billy scoring that high today wouldn't even be useful as proof potentially relevant to the dispute, since 1) anyone can get better at a game, especially in ten years, and 2) the strategies one needs to achieve 1.2M+ are today available to anyone who cares to look -- strategies which were, of course, mostly absent from Billy's gameplay in the mid 2000s, since they mostly didn't exist.

    * Donkey Kong is a volatile game and not the kind where one is guaranteed to have a million-point+ run in a given dozen or couple dozen attempts, no matter how good you are. Anyone who has watched a Donkey Kong stream would be aware of this.

    I feel the calls for Billy to perform live are being made out of an interest to have him humiliated for being unable or unwilling to perform. If this idea ever gained traction, it would almost certainly backfire against such a goal, and potentially give Billy some kind of lifeline in what remains an open-and-shut case. In the end, it's simply not relevant.


    RTM REPLY - I disagree with you on a number of levels (no pun intended)...

    -> " It has nothing to do with this dispute" - not quite. Bill's history of dumping performances and previous statements to me...I had been dealing with Bill and DK dating back as far as 2001 and as late as 2007...suggests that he had been maintaining a cache of unsubmitted performances in excess of 1.014M or that he was fully capable of scoring higher with ease or at will

    -> "It has nothing to do with the evidence of MAME present on the tapes of the two scores for which tapes at least exist." - it doesn't nor does it have to be...the original score challenge itself did not limit the discussion to surrounding MAME

    -> "Billy scoring that high today wouldn't even be useful as proof potentially relevant to the dispute" - I already said as much above in my post...the sole purpose of having him score that high is to see if he could after all he has said and done

    -> "Donkey Kong is a volatile game and not the kind where one is guaranteed to have a million-point+ run in a given dozen or couple dozen attempts, no matter how good you are. Anyone who has watched a Donkey Kong stream would be aware of this." - tell me something I do not already know...I was chief referee for Twin Galaxies for 4-1/2 years...BIll told me himself on another occasion that while his submitted scores are high, what people do not see or know are all the aborted attempts he makes, but even so, he also told me directly that he could beat higher scores that Steve's (then 1.006M) whenever they were submitted

    -> "I feel the calls for Billy to perform live are being made out of an interest to have him humiliated for being unable or unwilling to perform. If this idea ever gained traction," - has nothing to do with that at all, but considering how he had been pushing for years for a certain other gamer to perform live, and how Billy (and Rick/Chris) has expected Abdner to play "Junior Pacman" live (travelling at ACAM to do so, no less, which he did), then BIll should hold himself to the same standard that he held every other gamer to over the years.

    It's not about "humiliation"...it's about fair being fair.

    Bill made demands over the years for TG to act on and out-rightly reject world record submissions made by gamers which beat either his own personal record score or those of his good friends. It is with that and everything else collectively that I said what I did.

    Bill needs to be held to the same standards that he held everyone else to. No more, no less.
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  2. 03-12-2018, 11:47 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Asterra View Post
    * Donkey Kong is a volatile game and not the kind where one is guaranteed to have a million-point+ run in a given dozen or couple dozen attempts, no matter how good you are. Anyone who has watched a Donkey Kong stream would be aware of this.
    This is false.

    For the top four players (myself included), if my target were 1m points I would put any amount of money on the line that I could do it at least one in every four serious attempts.

    For players capable of 1.1m+ (as Billy claims to be and his tapes allegedly demonstrate), I would suspect being able to hit 1m at least one in every eight attempts. The difference in strategy and skill between 1m and 1.1m pace is so great, it's akin to relearning how to play the entire game. Going back to a "mere" 1m is mind-numbingly easy for any 1.1m+ player. When I was in the low 1.1m's, I once played in a tournament where I got 1m on my first coin drop.

    My point: I would seriously question the authenticity of ANY 1.1m+ DK player who had trouble hitting 1m on a few credits in a comfortable playing environment, regardless of how long of a break they've taken from the game. 1m and 1.1m are such a different level of skill, getting a 1m score for a 1.1m player should be like a Sunday stroll in the park.
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  3. 03-12-2018, 01:05 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by WCopeland View Post
    For players capable of 1.1m+ (as Billy claims to be and his tapes allegedly demonstrate), I would suspect being able to hit 1m at least one in every eight attempts.
    If only there was some kind of a semi-annual event where Billy could go and play Donkey Kong on a neutral machine, in front of a live audience. Perhaps such an event would last all weekend and Billy could sit there making attempt after attempt. If something like that existed then we could put an end to all this "Billy scoring a million live today" talk.

    On a completely separate note, is there an estimated date for the release of Billy's videos? I seem to recall a couple of weeks ago Jace saying they would be available but I have yet to see a link.
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  4. 03-12-2018, 01:12 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by q43 View Post
    If only there was some kind of a semi-annual event where Billy could go and play Donkey Kong on a neutral machine, in front of a live audience. Perhaps such an event would last all weekend and Billy could sit there making attempt after attempt. If something like that existed then we could put an end to all this "Billy scoring a million live today" talk.

    On a completely separate note, is there an estimated date for the release of Billy's videos? I seem to recall a couple of weeks ago Jace saying they would be available but I have yet to see a link.
    They seem to be taking their time, it is a little troubling. Seems like they are trying their hardest to show Billy didn't cheat.
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  5. 03-12-2018, 01:37 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by q43 View Post
    If only there was some kind of a semi-annual event where Billy could go and play Donkey Kong on a neutral machine, in front of a live audience. Perhaps such an event would last all weekend and Billy could sit there making attempt after attempt. If something like that existed then we could put an end to all this "Billy scoring a million live today" talk..


    RTM REPLY - isn't there already such an event called a "Kong Off" ? And are not all the machines in conjunction with that event supposed to be "neutral", or is that not the case ? He has showed up at the event and I do not think he hit a million yet at the event.
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  6. 03-12-2018, 01:48 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    ...
    Bill made demands over the years for TG to act on and out-rightly reject world record submissions made by gamers which beat either his own personal record score or those of his good friends. It is with that and everything else collectively that I said what I did.

    Bill needs to be held to the same standards that he held everyone else to. No more, no less.
    while this speaks more to character, and isnt an absolute proof, I do think its huge. One way to cheat is claim you did better than you did. Another way to cheat though is play within the rules, yet sabotage your opponent. Think of a figure skater breaking her opponents legs. She could go on to skate completley within the rules, the win would be considered a cheat if she only got the one by removing the competition unfairly.

    Its important to remember billy wasnt going for the score just for a personal achievement, but to be the best in the world. So it is very relevant not just how he played, but how he treated others in the competition. If he was willing to cheat by falsely removing competitors scores I see no reason to doubt he'd cheat in another way.

    So to that end, I agree this is very relevant, if it can be proven. Are there provable examples of billy trying to remove scores valid simply because they beat him or someone he liked?
    Lode Runner champ, also, Roy was right
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  7. 03-12-2018, 02:27 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
    Are there provable examples of billy trying to remove scores valid simply because they beat him or someone he liked?


    RTM REPLY - most definitely, and this is well documented...

    1st - Bill AND Chris tried to strong-arm TG into not accepting Abdner Ashman's new world record on "Ms Pacman" even after an industry expert validated Abdner's boardset (at my personal expense)

    2nd - Billy also tried to get TG/Walter/myself NOT to recognize Steve Wiebe's 1.006M submission as being "the first million" stating that he (Bill) himself had done so as much as a year earlier though never formally submitted it to TG. He subsequently DID get us to postpone accepting Steve's score based on the "gummy substance" finding by Brian Kuh. Here, Billy and possibly Chris as well told us that the presence of the substance had a "cooling effect" on the processor based on its exact positioning thereby subtly altering the game clock thus giving Steve a competitive edge.

    So yes, there were documented examples...I know as I was directly involved with both and have chronicled these within the TG forum and elsewhere on numerous occasions. Brien King can corroborate the Abdner story as the two of us AND Walter had discussed the matter with Abdner in private at the ACAM 2005 event immediately prior to the board testing, and I believe that he was also privy to all of the goings-on surrounding the simultaneous 1M submissions by Bill and Steve in Jul-Aug of 2004.
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  8. 03-12-2018, 02:58 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by q43 View Post
    If only there was some kind of a semi-annual event where Billy could go and play Donkey Kong on a neutral machine, in front of a live audience. Perhaps such an event would last all weekend and Billy could sit there making attempt after attempt. If something like that existed then we could put an end to all this "Billy scoring a million live today" talk.
    I'm hoping this is sarcasm, because it's happening this weekend - Kong Off 6 at Arcade Expo 4.0 in Banning, featuring Billy and Steve Weibe, as well as Robbie and other high-level players.

    And now, for something more philosophical - for better or worse, despite what moral questions may still exist in such an event, a performance by Billy at KO6 which bests any of these scores and previous performances that are currently in question would resolve the dispute. A new score legitimately achieved, cannot be ignored by TG or DKF. A choice to do so would unfortunately compromise the legitimacy of any leaderboard refusing to list a legitimately achieved score. A new higher score renders the previous scores essentially non-existent or at least not worth any more time and energy.

    Now, the conversation may continue, in the interest of proving there was cheating in general, and the result could be a conclusion that yes cheating occurred, and maybe a result of that will be stripping Billy of all his scores or re-performing all...except this one new DK score which was confirmed to be legitimately achieved.

    Just some hypotheticals here...
    Matthew 21:22

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  9. 03-12-2018, 03:02 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by YesAffinity View Post
    I'm hoping this is sarcasm, because it's happening this weekend - Kong Off 6 at Arcade Expo 4.0 in Banning, featuring Billy and Steve Weibe, as well as Robbie and other high-level players.

    And now, for something more philosophical - for better or worse, despite what moral questions may still exist in such an event, a performance by Billy at KO6 which bests any of these scores and previous performances that are currently in question would resolve the dispute. A new score legitimately achieved, cannot be ignored by TG or DKF. A choice to do so would unfortunately compromise the legitimacy of any leaderboard refusing to list a legitimately achieved score. A new higher score renders the previous scores essentially non-existent or at least not worth any more time and energy.

    Now, the conversation may continue, in the interest of proving there was cheating in general, and the result could be a conclusion that yes cheating occurred, and maybe a result of that will be stripping Billy of all his scores or re-performing all...except this one new DK score which was confirmed to be legitimately achieved.

    Just some hypotheticals here...
    If he is proven to have cheated he should be banned from submitting new scores. Even scores that are performed live. The dude put himself as a pillar of the community acting as a "gaming god". If he cheated he needs to be removed.
  10. 03-12-2018, 03:25 PM
    After 39 days since being told about the allegation of Billy playing MAME instead of an Arcade machine, TEAM Billy responds with a technical video which has some rather interesting points made by an expert long-employed in the field.

    Here is "Exhibit A", a visual findings video:
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