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Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

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Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. 02-07-2018, 07:27 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    RTM REPLY - Not quite.

    The first third of that tape was initially shown to a group of 20+ people and no one there questioned anything about the performance. THe second third was shown the following night in my cabin to a much smaller group including myself, Walter, one of the film crew (Ross or Josh Tuttle, if I remember correctly) and several other trusted classic arcade gaming names in the hobby in attendance that event.

    We had to point out to Walter that the quality of the tape was unacceptable especially as it reached certain points i the game, most notably the roll-over, and at that time he agreed with us that the tape could not be accepted.

    This is why I was so annoyed when he went against our recommendations and accepted the score anyway, which I later removed.

    But don't just believe me...read it in Walter's own words here - https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...e-was-Accepted
    Thank you for the clarification RTM. I actually do remember now that it was you who questioned the tape. Walter said so on the KoK while on the phone to Billy.

    Did the original tape surface and was it seen by either yourself or someone at TG thus allowing the score to be submitted? As that would show that he knew what he had on that tape without any doubt.

    Having an original which was seen by a TG referee and seen to be the same performance only enforces that he knew what he had.
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  2. 02-07-2018, 08:28 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by rotunda View Post
    Thank you for the clarification RTM. I actually do remember now that it was you who questioned the tape. Walter said so on the KoK while on the phone to Billy.

    Did the original tape surface and was it seen by either yourself or someone at TG thus allowing the score to be submitted? As that would show that he knew what he had on that tape without any doubt.

    Having an original which was seen by a TG referee and seen to be the same performance only enforces that he knew what he had.


    RTM REPLY - it is my personal recollection that the original was indeed sent by Billy several months after that ACAM event. There is a strong likelihood that it was even sent directly to myself for viewing, or it was sent to Walter who forwarded it to me...it's been awhile so I cannot be sure. However, no one back in the day would have thought to compare the way the screens are drawn arcade-vs-MAME in viewing the tape.
  3. 02-07-2018, 08:29 PM
    Update:

    While it is somewhat duplicative to include evidence that has already been presented, we wanted to provide a sample of some of the work we are doing to confirm both the MAME and Arcade rasterization assertions that have been previously made in this dispute thread.

    We feel that working to specifically confirm this element is key since it sits as one of the technical foundations of the dispute claim.

    Below you will see footage of an original Donkey Kong arcade display output as well as a Donkey Kong MAME Version 0.145 display output (we are in process looking at all MAME profiles we feel could be relevant for internal reasons.)

    This footage was shot with a 4K camera capable of capturing 120fps.

    We shot each game twice. Once at 120fps and once at 60fps.

    The results of our testing so far have been unilaterally confirming the assertions made regarding MAME rasterization, regardless of MAME version used, as being distinct and discernible from original Arcade rasterization in all instances.

    (You can slowly drag the control bar maker to view frame-by-frame)









    We continue to investigate this dispute.
  4. 02-07-2018, 08:42 PM
    The following is what I posted on my facebook page.
    check the link for images and videos.

    "The first image is a comparison of a screenshot from a game that Hank Chien was playing (left) and a screenshot of the barrel board being drawn in a later version of MAME (right). The very top left ladder is the 8th one to be drawn. The 2nd ladder from the left on the 2nd level (from the bottom) is the 11th one to be drawn. Notice in Hank's game that the bottom ladder in question has already been drawn, but is also partially obscured by an artifact of the monitor, notice the diagonal dark strip running from the top left to the bottom right. The top left ladder has also been drawn but it does not appear due to how the monitor is captured in connection with its scan orientation and refresh rate.A recording of a direct feed to VHS doesn't detail how the screen is drawn, no more than examining frames in MAME does. Such a recording that is played back on a TV that has been placed on its side that is copied via camcorder may capture any monitor artifacts displayed by the TV (ie. horizontal scroll becomes vertical moving either right to left (if turned clockwise) or left to right (if counter-clockwise).
    The timer is drawn first, but as I have pointed out by simply recording the playback of a youtube video with my phone (recording of a recording), the barrels at the top left may indeed show up first. Things may appear in chunks when examining a 1/30th of a sec frame capture, but the elements of the board are not drawn that way whether by arcade OR MAME.
    Since the frames of the actual youtube video shows both the barrels and the timer appearing simultaneously, I was accused of creating a fake video.
    That is complete and utter nonsense.

    The first video is my phone recording (30fps) of a few seconds of Robbie Lakeman’s 1.23 million game. The next pic is a screen shot where the video is paused to show the barrels, even though the timer does not appear. The timer IS indeed there, yet it does not appear for the same reason the top left ladder did not appear in the screenshot from Hank’s game.

    It should also be noted that Donkey Kong has also been drawn in Robbie’s example, yet you only see a portion as the rest is obscured by a similar dark strip running diagonally from top left to bottom right.
    The last video is the barrel board being drawn in slow motion.
    If the recording device and playback source are similar, then one may detect a more consistent synchronization in how each board is displayed as one examines it frame by frame. The fact that not every frame sequence is the same illustrates less than perfect consistency. The same is true of both arcade and MAME. I have played back frames on MAME 106 and had different results.
    Until the original recordings and accompanying footage of Billy’s gameplay are examined, one should not be so hasty in a rush to judgement since the purported evidence comes from uploaded recordings of 2nd or 3rd generation copies and this doesn’t prove what some are saying that it does. No one to my knowledge has taken the time to duplicate the process involved in the recording of Billy's games using similar equipment and technology. This would involve recording a direct feed from an original DK cabinet to VHS via converter. Another VHS copy would then have to be made (at the very least) and then played back on a TV through a VCR and recorded by a camcorder similar to that used by Dwayne Richard. The results of such a project would go far to either establishing or eliminating the disputed claim that such gameplay could not be from an original machine.
    Remember it is incumbent on those making claims of fraud or cheating to back up those claims. These recent claims have been challenged and disputed, showing the so-called evidence fails in supporting such claims.
    Unless there is conclusive evidence forthcoming that Billy Mitchell or his associates cheated or did what they are being accused of, I would suggest a measure of restraint and decorum.
    Thank you"


    https://www.facebook.com/david.race....04596409565773
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  5. 02-07-2018, 08:47 PM
    Here is a progression of 5 frames from MAME 194. If one were to go solely on this kind of presentation, you would believe that the left ladders were drawn first in this version of MAME, when they certainly are not. Check out my previous video where I show MAME 135 drawing in slow motion. I have compared that with MAME 194 and they draw the board in the same way.Click image for larger version. 

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  6. 02-07-2018, 09:02 PM
    I would suggest duplicating this using the methods which are claimed to have been used for Billy's games. This certainly would not involve a 4K piece of equipment filming at 120fps. Most recorders of the time would only be capturing at 30 fps and the playback of vcrs would be the same.
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  7. 02-07-2018, 09:07 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man View Post
    I would suggest duplicating this using the methods which are claimed to have been used for Billy's games. This certainly would not involve a 4K piece of equipment filming at 120fps. Most recorders of the time would only be capturing at 30 fps and the playback of vcrs would be the same.
    Isn't that the reason no one back them could detect such video anomalies though? With the ability to capture frames faster, you can see better how things where done. So TG using a higher speed camera to capture a cabinets picture vs MAME picture would be way more accurate wouldn't? I'm since that's how I would interpret it. If it's slower, it would mean more things could be left out. I'm only bringing this up because I just happened to watch an animal show and it was capturing a how fast a hummingbird's wings move in very high speed cameras shows so much more than slower cameras. If I'm wrong feel free to correct me. I understand your point for accuracy from the technology back in the day, but how does using a more advanced camera be a negative?
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  8. 02-07-2018, 09:34 PM
    Update:

    Attached are complete frame-by-frame shot sequences of both Original Arcade and MAME .145 versions of Donkey Kong.

    They are both shot at 120fps equally under the same environmental conditions and camera. The high speed capture ensures that no display information can be missed when recording screens displaying 60fps or 59.94.

    The results appears to confirm the rasterization differential between MAME and arcade versions definitively.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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  9. 02-07-2018, 09:45 PM
    Question to those posting evidence: If a gamer player on a cabinet and do not know MAME is inside, can such a person be held accountable? Nowadays one do get PCB with MAME running with the ROMS so if one do not look carefully it can appear from the "side| as a normal PCB?
    In this case, what if the player did not know it was MAME inside? If someone else do provide a cabinet for game play and present it as an original machine but is not? The person providing the machine was not honest and not the gamer platying the game?
    streaming mspacman normal and turbo speed at:

    Francois du Toit
  10. 02-07-2018, 09:46 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    Isn't that the reason no one back them could detect such video anomalies though? With the ability to capture frames faster, you can see better how things where done. So TG using a higher speed camera to capture a cabinets picture vs MAME picture would be way more accurate wouldn't? I'm since that's how I would interpret it. If it's slower, it would mean more things could be left out. I'm only bringing this up because I just happened to watch an animal show and it was capturing a how fast a hummingbird's wings move in very high speed cameras shows so much more than slower cameras. If I'm wrong feel free to correct me. I understand your point for accuracy from the technology back in the day, but how does using a more advanced camera be a negative?
    You are correct. Higher speed captures more information.
    Jace Hall
    Chairman of the Board
    www.TwinGalaxies.com
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