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Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

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Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. 02-08-2018, 06:17 PM
    Thabks for sharing these. When will you be uploading the full video?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man View Post
    These pictures are of VHS freeze frames. I recorded some of Billy's playback at the Big Bang in 2010 using a Sony Handycam, digital 8mm, and then transferred it to a VHS tape.



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  2. 02-08-2018, 06:47 PM
  3. 02-08-2018, 06:51 PM
    Here is how the screen is drawn in MAME 135. It also appears this is the same way it is drawn in the latest version (194). If someone has the ability to do this with MAME 97, as that would have been the latest version of MAME at the time of Billy's 1,047,200 score, please do so.<span style="color: rgb(29, 33, 41); font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
  4. 02-08-2018, 06:52 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man View Post
    I think you meant to embed this, because it's not showing up in the forum (I can only see it if I attempt to reply to this post). Here's the link David intended to have in his post here.

    https://www.facebook.com/david.race....03626392996108
    Thanks The Christian Pac-Man, timhett thanked this post
  5. 02-08-2018, 07:17 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man View Post
    Here is how the screen is drawn in MAME 135. It also appears this is the same way it is drawn in the latest version (194). If someone has the ability to do this with MAME 97, as that would have been the latest version of MAME at the time of Billy's 1,047,200 score, please do so.<span style="color: rgb(29, 33, 41); font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
    Could you please outline and compare your findings with what was presented in Xelnia's post? I'm unclear how we're supposed to interpret your video in light of the evidence previously discussed.

    https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...l=1#post946633

    Also, do you have any footage of other screen transitions from your 2010 video?
  6. 02-08-2018, 11:32 PM
    I have an interesting proposition.

    When a player has a score in a track, usually they only have one score for that particular track. When they beat their current score then the current score gets updated or replaced or overwritten with the better score.

    Maybe the computer keeps track of the older replaced scores, but they are not publicly visible.

    This means that if there was any questions regarding the legitimacy of this very score. The 1,062,800 score that is. If Billy had beaten this particular score with a better score at one of the Kong Offs or elsewhere legitimately, then the 1,062,800 score would have been replaced on the scoreboard with the better score.

    This means that even if the 1,062,800 were done in MAME, if he had beaten it with a better score on an actual arcade then the score would have been overwritten from the public view. While there would still be these "direct feed" videos still around, aka the Big Bang event, nobody might have questioned them with such scrunchy that we are doing today.

    People would just know him for his better score and not this 1,062,800 score. So it is interesting because Billy had years to actually kind of "fix" this situation long ago. But because he never beat this 1,062,800 score at a Kong Off or elsewhere it never got replaced and was in the public's eye.

    I think the moral of the lesson here is that... sure we might all mess up and make a poor decision at some point in our lives, but if one ever does this and if there is a way to fix it later then you probably want to fix it. All he had to do was legitimately beat his 1,062,800 score and this whole thread may have been completely prevented.

    He also could have possibly contacted Twin Galaxies and request that his own score be removed to prevent it from damaging his image.

    I also want to talk a little bit about cheating in general. The main problem with cheating is that when you do it, you are literally investing in it. When you are cheating then you are nurturing that skill. Whatever you do, you usually try and get good at it. So when you are cheating, all you are really doing is perfecting that skill. Essentially you are getting better and better at cheating.

    When you start cheating, you loose confidence in your own natural abilities.

    It seems to me that Billy did this in the King of Kong movie, but then he did it again with this score and the Donkey Kong jr score. Another problem is that when you cheat, it is hard to go back to not cheating. It's like being on performance enhancing drugs. There are many professional athletes who use performance enhancing drugs. Sometimes they get caught and they are thrown out of the game. I think this is a similar comparison to Billy.

    So basically Billy setting a Donkey Kong score on MAME is analogous to a Baseball player doing steroids. Billy wanted a performance enhancement, so he did some MAME and got messed up with it... as if it were a drug.

    Just think how Billy must have felt when Steve was setting Donkey Kong records over the 1 million mark for real all while Billy is using MAME. Billy must have been shaking in his boots the whole time. The thing that bothers me about Billy is the fact that he talks so much smack. Sometimes people say that when someone is talking big like that, really on the inside it's just that they are insecure with themselves.

    The thing that also makes me suspicious about the double world record with Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Jr. is that isn't this really hard to do in a single day? I mean, one record is hard enough... but two... in the same exact day? That means that Billy played for like 6 hours on these machines at the minimum. I could believe two world records in the same week or same month, but in the same day is questionable, especially on these games.

    I honestly want to see him come forward and apologize before a conclusion is drawn upon this matter. Anyone can mess up, but come one man. You have to fess up and apologize if you are in the wrong. But knowing Billy, his own ego and personality won't allow him to make a formal apology.
    Likes francoisadt liked this post
  7. Correcting a misinterpreted message

    02-09-2018, 02:07 AM
    This is to everyone involved or have interested in Donkey Kong dispute. @Hector post my podcast in this thread last night where I shared my opinions with my community and team of players on my stance about Billy Mitchell and Todd Rogers. However his interpretation of my opinions is off a bit. This is no slight at him but I do need to correct his interpretation of what I said on my stream. So I'll make it straight forward here so no one can say I said A or B. It is what I'm writing below.

    ...

    There is no "THREAT" to anyone here about anything. What I know, I'm simply giving a informative heads up to whats coming. The people involved, know who they are and they know what they've done. I honestly don't care as much as it sounds on my stream because it is neither here or there. My only concern is what damage it will do to the scene as a whole and is why I have some level of consideration to give out a warning. I've actually gone back on the trust of those who told me what I know to be used as a atomic bomb. While a part of me thinks is literately justice being served, the potential destruction is not worth it. There is a simply choice, heed the warning or not. Simple.

    However, what is coming is coming and where things land is where things will land. The "suggestion" of, "back off or else" is a FALSE understanding of what I said. Far worst it has nothing to do with @jac e. I don't know how that thought even came about. It's not what I mean or said. I said, a bomb is going to go off and for those DK competitors who know what they did, they need to go speak to @jac e confidentially and confess or something. I don't really know what to tell you to do but do something and see if you can get a plea deal or something because when the bomb goes off, it will be too late then. It may be too late now. Oh well. I could careless about who wants to champion the dispute against Billy. Do what you want to do. That's on you, I have no say in what you do or say in this dispute which is why I stayed out of it.

    I'm only here because of my opinions off this site were put here and are being misunderstood. I stream all types of topics on my podcast as I share my thoughts with the community. None of what stated in my podcast is to be used as evidence here. If I wanted it to be evidence, I would simply submit it myself. I've learned in this scene that, whatever you know, you keep to yourself unless you are willing to face anything you've said coming back to you. What I said on the stream is what I said and is my opinion about the matter as I was sharing it with my discord community. It has no place here. I wanted to make that it CRYSTAL CLEAR! As my opinions was accidentally misinterpreted.
  8. 02-09-2018, 02:54 AM
    Aren't you the one still defending Todd Rogers?

    Quote Originally Posted by TriForce View Post
    This is to everyone involved or have interested in Donkey Kong dispute. @Hector post my podcast in this thread last night where I shared my opinions with my community and team of players on my stance about Billy Mitchell and Todd Rogers. However his interpretation of my opinions is off a bit. This is no slight at him but I do need to correct his interpretation of what I said on my stream. So I'll make it straight forward here so no one can say I said A or B. It is what I'm writing below.

    ...

    There is no "THREAT" to anyone here about anything. What I know, I'm simply giving a informative heads up to whats coming. The people involved, know who they are and they know what they've done. I honestly don't care as much as it sounds on my stream because it is neither here or there. My only concern is what damage it will do to the scene as a whole and is why I have some level of consideration to give out a warning. I've actually gone back on the trust of those who told me what I know to be used as a atomic bomb. While a part of me thinks is literately justice being served, the potential destruction is not worth it. There is a simply choice, heed the warning or not. Simple.

    However, what is coming is coming and where things land is where things will land. The "suggestion" of, "back off or else" is a FALSE understanding of what I said. Far worst it has nothing to do with @jac e. I don't know how that thought even came about. It's not what I mean or said. I said, a bomb is going to go off and for those DK competitors who know what they did, they need to go speak to @jac e confidentially and confess or something. I don't really know what to tell you to do but do something and see if you can get a plea deal or something because when the bomb goes off, it will be too late then. It may be too late now. Oh well. I could careless about who wants to champion the dispute against Billy. Do what you want to do. That's on you, I have no say in what you do or say in this dispute which is why I stayed out of it.

    I'm only here because of my opinions off this site were put here and are being misunderstood. I stream all types of topics on my podcast as I share my thoughts with the community. None of what stated in my podcast is to be used as evidence here. If I wanted it to be evidence, I would simply submit it myself. I've learned in this scene that, whatever you know, you keep to yourself unless you are willing to face anything you've said coming back to you. What I said on the stream is what I said and is my opinion about the matter as I was sharing it with my discord community. It has no place here. I wanted to make that it CRYSTAL CLEAR! As my opinions was accidentally misinterpreted.
    Likes HiFred, Fendersonia, hydef liked this post
  9. 02-09-2018, 03:10 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man View Post
    These pictures are of VHS freeze frames. I recorded some of Billy's playback at the Big Bang in 2010 using a Sony Handycam, digital 8mm, and then transferred it to a VHS tape.
    Attachment 49791Attachment 49792Attachment 49793Attachment 49794






    Attachment 49795Attachment 49796



    Attachment 49797Attachment 49798Attachment 49799
    Thank you for posting these. Your participation here is honored and appreciated.

    If it is possible for you to post the source video as well as the complete VCR recording of the video your made if the source that would be helpful as there are missed frames in your posted VHS frame capture sequence.

    Your current set seems to provide additional support of the assertion of a non-Original Arcade rasterization (possibly MAME) which would make this a 3rd perspective posted on the Big Bang performance producing similar results, but the missing frames in your sequence makes it more challenging to definitively verify that.

    Just for informational purposes:

    From the limited frames you provided, on the basis of our own internal testing with an Original Donkey Kong arcade machine so far, we are able to discern these images were likely not produced by an Original Arcade rasterization.

    Your 3rd image provided contains information that helps make that determination (based on our internal testing so far) as an Original Arcade Donkey Kong PCB does not ever render the Donkey Kong character to the gameplay screen without also rendering the Oil Barrel in the bottom left corner simultaneously. From our direct testing we have determined that their moment of screen rasterization are always together in the Original Arcade version without exception. So far, all of our testing indicates that they can never be separately depicted under any capture conditions.


    We have only been able to re-produce the separate Donkey Kong / Oil Barrel rasterization you are showing in your VHS frame capture using MAME software emulation (WolfMAME .193 and higher address this issue and render together like arcade.) However we continue to test and investigate the matter further, as there is still a lot of ground to cover to be comprehensive.
    Jace Hall
    Chairman of the Board
    www.TwinGalaxies.com
  10. 02-09-2018, 03:51 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man View Post
    Here is how the screen is drawn in MAME 135. It also appears this is the same way it is drawn in the latest version (194). If someone has the ability to do this with MAME 97, as that would have been the latest version of MAME at the time of Billy's 1,047,200 score, please do so.<span style="color: rgb(29, 33, 41); font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
    For informational purposes and with great simplification, I want to help people try to understand the difference between the way the game "draws" into memory and the way the memory is pushed to screen rasterizaton during the 1/60th of a second that it has to occur in.

    The Donkey Kong game code "drawing" (which is a combination of a number of elements that are technical involving things like video ram and etc.) can not get through its entire full screen sequence within one frame of execution (1/60th of a second - technically there is an alternating scanline thing but lets not worry about that.) This is why it takes the original arcade machine several frames to construct the full screen and the entire Donkey Kong game screen does not just instantly appear on frame 1.

    This is why the Chris Gleed original arcade capture contains a minimum of 5 frames to get to a complete DK game screen.

    These frames are what are actually shown to the human eye and are what are captured during video recording. That is why you will see large "chunks" of the gameplay screen appear over the course of 5 frames, and not the visual depiction of your step-by-step walk through of the game drawing those tiny pieces you see in your video.

    In your step-by-step walktrough, you are giving the emulator far more time to process and render to the screen each item as it steps through the ROM drawing code. It no longer has to try to get through the entire screen display in 1/60th of a second. If it had to do that, it would only get as far as it could through the video ram in 1/60th of a second and then have to render the rest on the next pass.

    In any case, using your step-thru method, virtually all of the MAME renderings might look identical, and they should because they are all executing the same exact ROM drawing code and all trying to emulate DK PCB. Since they have near infinite time to do the job, only grotesque flaws in the rasterization emulation would ever show a difference between them under those conditions.

    I hope that made sense.
    Jace Hall
    Chairman of the Board
    www.TwinGalaxies.com
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