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Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

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Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. 02-10-2018, 12:26 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Christian Pac-Man View Post
    Here are consecutive screenshots for each of the last few barrel boards in Billy's 1,062,800 game. I already took pictures of individual VHS frames as they were played back on the TV. Earlier I mentioned that there was a difference in the displays between VHS playback and the A/V capture into my computer. You can actually see more stuff in one that doesn't appear in the other. Go figure.



    Attachment 49818

    Here is a link to the pics on my facebook page:

    https://www.facebook.com/david.race....07359215956159
    Thank you for posting this as well as making the video available.

    You are correct that your computer captured video shots are displaying a different sequence of images from your VHS frames previously displayed. Here is an explanation as to how that difference is possible:

    Based on a quick comparative analysis, it has been determined that when you transferred your Sony HandyCam footage to your VHS recorder, it had to be an analog transfer. While your Sony HandyCam uses digital tape to store information, its output to a VCR is facilitated by its digital to analog converter and routed through a traditional RCA type connector. You likely used this to plug in to your VCR to record from your camera.

    Fortunately, the information signal being sent down the RCA type connector to the VCR is fully complete with all signal information. No frames are missed, because a "frame" in the analog world is really a unit composition of two signal fields occurring at a specific rate and is very different from a discrete digital video frame. So basically, unless there is hardware or tape failure, an individual "frame" can't be "lost" in a continuous uninterrupted analog electronic transfer (such as your VCR transfer.)

    However, what can be lost in this process is discrete resolution fidelity and absolute timing (compared to digital Hi8 tape) due to the limitations of the VHS format and recording process. So the recording will appear less detailed, and can theoretically run faster or slower than perfect due to the potential VCR motor speed having variance (or other things) - just like an old record player.

    So your VHS copy is very likely a faithful depiction of all the frames that your HandyCam may have captured. Just blurrier. (This would also be the case with any direct feed to VCR from a classic arcade machine that was designed to output to a standard CRT screen. All the frames would be present in the RGB to NTSC converted signal and the VCR would record the signal without issue.)

    For your computer captured video shots, it is an entirely different matter.

    If you used any kind of consumer level USB capture system to capture the analog signal coming out of your camera, and did not instead use the direct DV OUT (digital output) of your HandyCam to bring in a perfect digital copy of your camera footage, it is almost guaranteed that your USB capture of the footage missed numerous frames of the analog camera output.

    This is because your USB capture device has to "look" at the incoming analog signal, and convert it back to digital with an analog-to-digital converter so the computer can store it. The way it does this is by first allowing the A/D converter to process the incoming NTSC signal and render a digital frame/picture into memory, then taking a "snapshot" of the picture/memory and storing it, then continuously repeating that process upon the incoming/changing NTSC signal at whatever the capture rate was set to. Since an analog signal does not have discrete digital frames to sync with (this is one reason why SMPTE timecode was invented) the A/D converter just has to snap away in its own right, essentially creating its own unique discrete frames.

    This would not seem to be a problem on the surface, however there are a couple of important factors that impact the capture process -

    1.) The framerate of the snapshots. I analyzed your original video and you captured at a progressive rate of 29.97. Even though NTSC video signal is 29.97, your USB progressive capture can not perfectly sync with every analog frame/field without SMPTE. Capturing an interlaced signal using a progressive capture format at the same rate of the source video without signal lock pretty much guarantees that your capture system missed frames in the process. This gets into the whole 60hz, interlaced frame vs. progressive frame stuff that is too lengthy to describe here. If you only have the ability to do analog capture with your capture device, you may want to go back and recapture the video at 60fps if it supports that framerate. This oversampling helps to ensure that it becomes nearly impossible for the A/D converter to miss any incoming information. Unless you are using very high end equipment that carries a SMPTE signal throughout all devices involved, the capture process of analog to digital MUST be faster than, or identical to, the incoming source framerate to have any chance of a complete grab (progressive capture is not the same as interlaced.)

    2.) Compression. Lossy compression methods will optimize or reduce entire frame compositions in order to keep file size down. A typical non-high end USB video capture system will tend to utilize a lot of compression and be normally set for consumer level use quality. If you did not override many of the default settings, this could be another place that frame information might be altered or lost. Generally, proper video capture is sourced using lossless compression methods or no compression at all to ensure that no information is lost in the capture process.

    At minimum, I would encourage you to recapture your footage into your computer using the DV OUT of your camera. It is the best way to make sure you get an exact copy of what you filmed into your computer digitally. That information could be very helpful in the dispute evidence body should you choose to provide it.

    Another indicator that your computer capture process likely missed frames that your VHS capture might not have is that both your recent screenshot sequence and actual video (when stepped through) are showing the complete rasterization of the pie factory as well as the rivet board in many less discrete frames than it actually takes both MAME and Original Arcade Donkey Kong to construct and send to the screen.

    The example below shows the rivet board being completed in 2 frames in your video, which we have confirmed is technically impossible for the game to do during normal operation in MAME or Arcade, so frames seem to be demonstrably missing in your computer capture (see below):
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hope that helps to explain why there can potentially be a difference in the comparison process you are exploring.

    For what it is worth, these types of technical issues are exactly why the TG investigative group is using very high end professional equipment and processes to either confirm or invalidate each technical aspect of the evidence assertions being made in this dispute case. (120 fps, etc.) Nothing is being left to conjecture in regard to the overall technical parts of this matter. The technical assertions being made about MAME, video tape recordings, and the original Donkey Kong arcade machine rasterization behavior are quite explorable to absolute definitive certainty, which is what TG is comprehensively doing to its own level of satisfaction.

    Again, all of this is helpful and your participation in this discussion is appreciated.
  2. 02-10-2018, 04:34 AM
    I agree with @timmell – Billy’s latest Gamespot article reiterates his concession that the existing footage of his 1.062 million run does bear the hallmarks of a MAME performance. Billy is now working with experts on direct-rig feeds to explain why an arcade performance ultimately ended up like MAME. The most simple explanation in this case is, not surprisingly, being overlooked. However, the more interesting technical question for me is understanding how a DK Junior PCB is capable of providing a direct feed of a DK game, as captured by Robert Childs in the moments after Billy achieved a DK world record.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    There are some other elements in the Gamepost article I’d like to touch upon.

    “Mitchell has two primary objectives at the moment. The first is getting original tapes of the scores' direct feeds, which Twin Galaxies should have, according to Mitchell.”

    This appears to be a dead end according to a post from then-TG referee OriginalPSP, who was weighed in on a question about the belief that direct feeds were no longer permitted:

    //www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/130764-A-rumor-about-Billy-Mitchell-and-the-DK-record?p=704225&viewfull=1#post704225

    Quote Originally Posted by OriginalPSP View Post
    The direct feed recording had NO bearing on verification of the score, which was done in public and viewed in full by two referees, one of which also verified a live score for another gamer on a Wii titles at the IVGHOF event. That recording only existed for Billy's announcement. The score was verified live when it happened.
    PSP added, “This is an amazing feat that deserves all the props it gets, and went through a great deal of verification on our end involving many referees, not only including the two who saw it live but also myself, David and several more.” This could be a reference to the secret vote that occurred on the eve of the announcement.

    There appears to be some "seeding" about the existence of additional video since PSP also references the apparent existence of recorded footage “over Bill’s shoulder and, I understand, some witness stuff on YouTube I just became aware of today and have not seen yet.” However, in the very next post, Lmdave points out that the clips are simply the three Robert Childs’ videos: “I would have thought this guy with the camera that walks up after DK Jr. would have at least for a second pointed at the screen to see the score up there.”
  3. 02-10-2018, 07:26 AM
    Here is a Video of Billy Mitchell's Donkey Kong Last Few Minutes of Score of 1,050,200 with no Sound
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbRN549NYuU
    Questions
    1. Is their Video of Billy Mitchell Donkey Kong Full Game Play and Score of 1,062,800 that All Twin Galaxy Can See it?
    2. Question if the DK Video Play Shows is in the Dark then Billy Never ever Played Live at Boomers Amusement Park when he did this Score
    Hopefully Their is Sound & Light in the Back Ground that shows Billy in Fact did Play at Boomers Amusement Park if not it is False


    3. Did Billy Mitchell Actually play at Boomers Amusement Park when he set the Score 1,062,800?


    In the Video of the Donkey Kong Play their should be Sounds & Multi Color Lights of Many Arcade Games, Music, People Talking, Announcements on the Speaker & Kids Playing at the Boomers Amusement Park the Day Billy Mitchell Played?

    If their is None of these Sounds on the Video of Billy Mitchell Arcade Donkey Kong Score of 1,062,800 then you can Check Yes Again for the Dispute

    Plus their is Evidence that Shows that Billy's Donkey Kong Play was Played On MAME Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator
  4. 02-10-2018, 07:33 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jjt_defender View Post
    Here is a Video of Billy Mitchell's Donkey Kong Last Few Minutes of Score of 1,050,200 with no Sound
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbRN549NYuU
    Questions
    1. Is their Video of Billy Mitchell Donkey Kong Full Game Play and Score of 1,062,800 that All Twin Galaxy Can See it?
    2. Question if the DK Video Play Shows is in the Dark then Billy Never ever Played Live at Boomers Amusement Park when he did this Score
    Hopefully Their is Sound & Light in the Back Ground that shows Billy in Fact did Play at Boomers Amusement Park if not it is False


    3. Did Billy Mitchell Actually play at Boomers Amusement Park when he set the Score 1,062,800?


    In the Video of the Donkey Kong Play their should be Sounds & Multi Color Lights of Many Arcade Games, Music, People Talking, Announcements on the Speaker & Kids Playing at the Boomers Amusement Park the Day Billy Mitchell Played?

    If their is None of these Sounds on the Video of Billy Mitchell Arcade Donkey Kong Score of 1,062,800 then you can Check Yes Again for the Dispute

    Plus their is Evidence that Shows that Billy's Donkey Kong Play was Played On MAME Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator
    All of that is here, all of that has been covered. Welcome back JTT!
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  5. 02-10-2018, 07:42 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    I agree with @timmell – Billy’s latest Gamespot article reiterates his concession that the existing footage of his 1.062 million run does bear the hallmarks of a MAME performance. Billy is now working with experts on direct-rig feeds to explain why an arcade performance ultimately ended up like MAME. The most simple explanation in this case is, not surprisingly, being overlooked. However, the more interesting technical question for me is understanding how a DK Junior PCB is capable of providing a direct feed of a DK game, as captured by Robert Childs in the moments after Billy achieved a DK world record.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    There are some other elements in the Gamepost article I’d like to touch upon.

    “Mitchell has two primary objectives at the moment. The first is getting original tapes of the scores' direct feeds, which Twin Galaxies should have, according to Mitchell.”

    This appears to be a dead end according to a post from then-TG referee OriginalPSP, who was weighed in on a question about the belief that direct feeds were no longer permitted:

    //www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/130764-A-rumor-about-Billy-Mitchell-and-the-DK-record?p=704225&viewfull=1#post704225



    PSP added, “This is an amazing feat that deserves all the props it gets, and went through a great deal of verification on our end involving many referees, not only including the two who saw it live but also myself, David and several more.” This could be a reference to the secret vote that occurred on the eve of the announcement.

    There appears to be some "seeding" about the existence of additional video since PSP also references the apparent existence of recorded footage “over Bill’s shoulder and, I understand, some witness stuff on YouTube I just became aware of today and have not seen yet.” However, in the very next post, Lmdave points out that the clips are simply the three Robert Childs’ videos: “I would have thought this guy with the camera that walks up after DK Jr. would have at least for a second pointed at the screen to see the score up there.”
    PSP has made about a million posts on the subject matter from what I am aware, including an article or two. If you feel any of that can contribute to this dispute I'd suggest taking a look at what he said on Facebook. He seems to keep beating the deadhorse that Direct Feed was not allowed per the rules when obviously Twin Galaxies made an exception and added it to the rules. However does any of what he is talking about matters if he is not willing to participate in a discussion regarding the one person he has been harping about for years? He must not have anything important to contribute if he isn't here. However, it's a footnote to this discussion that might as well be noted. Let's not forget he is biased.

    I'll let you guys take from this what you will and make your own decision. I could just be looking at it through rose colored glasses.

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  6. 02-10-2018, 08:19 AM
    @The Evener The link is not working maybe this will help: https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthre...1%23post704225

    That PSP post is interesting because it seems like he had a different tone back then, I only skimmed it, if you see his recent posts on other media from this week his tone is different. So that post does contribute some interesting insight from before and after what I perceive as a "grudge"
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  7. 02-10-2018, 08:26 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by HectorTelloc View Post
    He seems to keep beating the deadhorse that Direct Feed was not allowed per the rules when obviously Twin Galaxies made an exception and added it to the rules.
    not so "obvious". I mean, it seems like a reasonable conclusion if you're assumption that was TG was a fair organization. However, since it wasnt added to the rules and an exception was made for billy in particular, the only thing "obvious" about all this is that Billy didnt have follow the rules. Is it also "obvious" that the rules allowed you to play mame for arcade?
    Monthly Marathon 1st Sat of month
    let justice be done though the heavens may fall
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  8. 02-10-2018, 08:32 AM
    Am I the only one who only really cares about actual evidence and not what ANYONE who may have seen/seen/believes Billy did these things? Evidence people. I can say right now big foot is sitting on my couch and there are some people who would believe it, most wouldn't. That's all these posts regarding what people have to say are. They do nothing but add DRAMA to this thing. It fuels the side that already believes in Billy he did, and it fuels the side that thinks he didn't do it. Evidence. Videos/pictures. For the love of god, please no more posts of what people have said they saw. It does nothing. Literally, nothing. I thought TG was going to handle these posts getting out of hand? Evidence. Again, I realize I'm not posting evidence but I at least ask questions regarding the evidence in question. It's just making it harder and longer (haha, weiner joke and I wasn't even trying) for people to actually find evidence for or against this dispute.

    By the way, Big Foot says "Hi."
  9. 02-10-2018, 08:38 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    Am I the only one who only really cares about actual evidence and not what ANYONE who may have seen/seen/believes Billy did these things? Evidence people. I can say right now big foot is sitting on my couch and there are some people who would believe it, most wouldn't. That's all these posts regarding what people have to say are. They do nothing but add DRAMA to this thing. It fuels the side that already believes in Billy he did, and it fuels the side that thinks he didn't do it. Evidence. Videos/pictures. For the love of god, please no more posts of what people have said they saw. It does nothing. Literally, nothing. I thought TG was going to handle these posts getting out of hand? Evidence. Again, I realize I'm not posting evidence but I at least ask questions regarding the evidence in question. It's just making it harder and longer (haha, weiner joke and I wasn't even trying) for people to actually find evidence for or against this dispute.

    By the way, Big Foot says "Hi."
    I look at this dispute this way, everything related to this story should be documented, every angle explored. Many notable people felt PSP's testimony contributes to this dispute, but clearly we see from his old posts and new posts he contradicts himself, this should be noted, what is good is his story has been collaborated, but those in the future looking back on this dispute need to know why did we need to have to collaborate his story with someone else. Also this information will come in handy in the future as evidence for other disputes ect...
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