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Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800

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Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. 02-13-2018, 06:05 AM
    Not sure if this has been focused on or not or related, but when the second board is pulled out, what is the laptop on the table with some converter box next to it? Hard to capture what it is, or even identify whats on the screen.



    Donkey Kong (arcade/3 men): 1,108,100
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  2. 02-13-2018, 06:22 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by LMDAVE View Post
    Not sure if this has been focused on or not or related, but when the second board is pulled out, what is the laptop on the table with some converter box next to it? Hard to capture what it is, or even identify whats on the screen.

    [IMG]//pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2150/904309/21260953/413774653.jpg[/IMG]

    [IMG]//pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2150/904309/21260953/413774643.jpg[/IMG]
    Interesting question - we know though that Robert's direct feed set up did not require use of a laptop.
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  3. hay

    02-13-2018, 06:36 AM
    hay , yeah Dave iv notice that thing to ,, by the shape and color it looks like some kinda router box , iv never seen RGBS to component or vga converter like that looks like that one on the market and it dose seam to be quite large to be one , the cables going to it are to fat looking as well

    ....there is one other thing i forgot to talk about was; you can see Rob taking the back door off the back of the cab in the video.
    this would mean the only way to route cables in and out of the cab with the door on would be , throw a hole in the cab or throw the ventilation hole in the back of the door ,, If a cable was going throw the ventilation hole then you have to be care full opening and closing the door and have sufficient amount of cable length to do this. The other scenario is having a hole that was drill throw the cab, watch i dont think the owner of the cab would like this :)
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  4. 02-13-2018, 07:45 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by maxim_recoil View Post
    I know. It would be a pain. The floor of the cabinet is cluttered with the power supply and stepdown transformer. There's some floor space behind those things, but you'd have to lean way in there. It would be easier with a camcorder that has a composite video input. I don't think this is an important issue either way though. If the screen is being drawn like MAME then it is MAME, regardless of any of the side issues.



    As far as I know, classic Nintendo cabinets never had an interlock switch, though it wouldn't matter either way. Interlock switches are made so that they can be manually switched on even if the door is off, plus many of the cabinets that did come with them have long since had them removed and bypassed; my Missile Command cabinet for example.
    do you really think someone who thinks monitor burn in can affect direct feed recording would be able to set that all up? I'd like to suggest none of us help robert and billy come up with excuses. While some of us may be able to come up with enough plausible deniability, if we instead let them do the explaninng they'll surely further expose themselves.
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  5. 02-13-2018, 07:51 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Jace Hall View Post
    Yes you are correct. This would be the easiest way, but so far we have not been able to identify any cable coming out of the back of the cabinet to support this either.
    Because he didn't use direct capture. He used MAME. You are looking for something that isn't there. It's not even a needle in haystack, it's a just a haystack. I would focus more on these so called original tapes....or the fact that everyone has been lied to regarding the original tapes actually being in TGs hands, essentially blaming TG for not having the evidence it needs to prove the score possible. Feels like a dirty cop getting caught for tampering with evidence and the suspect being set free because of it. You know, the deception part. Good for TG for being incredibly thorough, but I think you've reached the extent of what you need to do regarding the cabinets. I mean, you are looking for things that aren't there. Think you've done a pretty thorough job, haha.
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  6. 02-13-2018, 07:57 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by LMDAVE View Post
    Not sure if this has been focused on or not or related, but when the second board is pulled out, what is the laptop on the table with some converter box next to it? Hard to capture what it is, or even identify whats on the screen.

    [IMG]//pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2150/904309/21260953/413774653.jpg[/IMG]

    [IMG]//pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2150/904309/21260953/413774643.jpg[/IMG]
    I'll take a stab at this one. Could the video from the computer be the MAME game he had already played, being sent to the cabinet via wires making it appear to be direct capturing when it may have in fact been displaying? Making it appear that Billy was "playing"? I can hook my computer up to my TV just using an HDMI cable and nobody would know the difference. It would have a very solid look for the passer by-ers of him using direct feed.
  7. 02-13-2018, 08:18 AM
    Here is my direct feed setup in the cab: https://donkeykongforum.com/index.php...24950#msg24950

    It is fundamentally different from the alleged one used by Billy, in that mine pulls A/V and power for the conversion devices from the unused edge connector of the 2-board stack. I used a 44-pin edge connector from Mike's Arcade and soldered lines to their appropriate connections on the edge connector. The only exception is power for the Mike's Arcade inverter/sound amp board, which gets power directly from the PSU unused 7P SOU connector (unused in uprights).

    ^To Robert's point, I started thinking about that possibility this morning. Something like this would take VGA output to RGBS:

    https://www.ebay.com/i/172443808131?chn=ps

    From this board (or similar), the nintendo inverter would have to work in reverse, taking uninverted video and inverting it. Not sure if the nintendo inverter board can do that, possibly someone with more logic level savvy can chime in.

    On a separate note, it would also be good to qualify whether the nintendo inverter board can simultaneously output pass-through and de-inverted video and/or any side effects of sourcing parallel signals from the nintendo board. I can say that, on my JAMMA direct feed, the monitor dims slightly when I've got the NTSC-to-RGB pulling a parallel signal for direct feed capture. It's not a major side effect, but still opens the door on the potential that something similar or more noticeable could happen with the nintendo inverter board.

    There is also speculation on the parallel DK Forum thread, that at least one of the videos was indeed direct fed to a PC. One of the videos has a thin white line border around it, which is indicative of PC capture software. In that case, the (let's assume it was arcade) gameplay would've been captured to a PC, then played back to a VCR for recording. This scenario doesn't really support MAME play, if you think it through, but could support the lack of the "signature" transitional frames that we are looking for to determine that it is or is not arcade gameplay. Composite capture to PC (unknown framerate, loss), playback and record to VCR (loss), and then what we are actually looking at was again recorded by some external method (camera) and uploaded to youtube (more loss). Just saying if that is truly what the setup is, the total loss of granularity and detail could equate to a very poor video image/quality that looks similar to the best of MAME quality/images. This, of course, contradicts what the "people who were there" are stating was the direct feed setup, tho.

    Again, just voicing some impartial analysis based on all the evidence we have in front of us. :)
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  8. 02-13-2018, 09:16 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    Because he didn't use direct capture. He used MAME. You are looking for something that isn't there.
    If there is footage from Robert during the suspect PCB swap, there's no harm in noting for the record that the direct feed set up attested to by Robert is not visible anywhere. He just fires up the game and Billy dives in with his world record attempt - no cables or VCR visible, no last check to make sure the direct feed set up is working and recording before Billy dives in. It's just credit up and go. Imagine if everyone tried to perform direct feed experiments to see if we end up with MAME transitions to validate something where an arcade direct feed set up wasn't used in the first place.

    And for the record, it's the only time in Robert's three videos that we get a clear, unobstructed view of the arcade game screen playing DK Junior - but not after Billy nabs the world record. No parallel footage of the DK run start up is captured by Robert.
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  9. 02-13-2018, 09:28 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by The Evener View Post
    If there is footage from Robert during the suspect PCB swap, there's no harm in noting for the record that the direct feed set up attested to by Robert is not visible anywhere. He just fires up the game and Billy dives in with his world record attempt - no cables or VCR visible, no last check to make sure the direct feed set up is working and recording before Billy dives in. It's just credit up and go. Imagine if everyone tried to perform direct feed experiments to see if we end up with MAME transitions to validate something where an arcade direct feed set up wasn't used in the first place.

    And for the record, it's the only time in Robert's three videos that we get a clear, unobstructed view of the arcade game screen playing DK Junior - but not after Billy nabs the world record. No parallel footage of the DK run start up is captured by Robert.
    Correct. I was implying looking any further than what Jace had already stated they have done would result in the same result. I'm all for looking once at something, but if it isn't there after a thorough look the first time, it's not there. Obviously this doesn't apply to many scenarios, but this one is pretty obvious to see. A bunch of wires that aren't normally there being there. It would be hard to miss a set up that required as much.
  10. 02-13-2018, 09:48 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by YesAffinity View Post
    There is also speculation on the parallel DK Forum thread, that at least one of the videos was indeed direct fed to a PC. One of the videos has a thin white line border around it, which is indicative of PC capture software. In that case, the (let's assume it was arcade) gameplay would've been captured to a PC, then played back to a VCR for recording. This scenario doesn't really support MAME play, if you think it through, but could support the lack of the "signature" transitional frames that we are looking for to determine that it is or is not arcade gameplay. Composite capture to PC (unknown framerate, loss), playback and record to VCR (loss), and then what we are actually looking at was again recorded by some external method (camera) and uploaded to youtube (more loss). Just saying if that is truly what the setup is, the total loss of granularity and detail could equate to a very poor video image/quality that looks similar to the best of MAME quality/images. This, of course, contradicts what the "people who were there" are stating was the direct feed setup, tho.

    Again, just voicing some impartial analysis based on all the evidence we have in front of us. :)
    Yes. We have been considering the possibility of a PC capture-to VHS recording, which could easily miss signature transitional frames if not done correctly.

    However, we are having difficulty supporting that premise due to the fact that all our original arcade testing so far has shown that the arcade rasterization NEVER outputs the Donkey Kong character to the screen without simultaneously rasterizing the Oil Barrel in the bottom left corner.

    That always happens within one frame.

    In the alleged Billy Mitchell performance recordings, we find instances of a rasterization separation between the two objects.


    Example (not DK character is not present but Oil Barrel is):
    Screen Shot 2018-02-13 at 9.36.36 AM.png

    Under no circumstance have we been able to achieve this yet with the Original Arcade hardware. We are finding this rasterization scenario to be impossible to be produced from the machine, which then makes it impossible for any recording device to record.

    We HAVE been able to reproduce this rasterization separation with various versions of MAME and other EMU types.

    If you can confirm or invalidate our findings on this issue with your original hardware set up and provide that information to the dispute thread it would be helpful in our overall evaluation of this assertion.
    Jace Hall
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