Dispute: Jeremy Young - Arcade - Donkey Kong - Points [Hammer Allowed] - Player: Billy L Mitchell - Score: 1,062,800


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Is this a valid dispute?

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  1. 09-19-2019, 12:59 PM
    To clarify, my points above are theoretical scenarios, not statements!
  2. 09-19-2019, 01:08 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by TT View Post
    TG has decreed that the tapes relating to Boomers and the Mortgage brokers convention demonstrate that the hardware used was not original and most likely MAME. So following on from that, what is the assumption about what actually took place at these two live events?
    This is a quote from ersatz_cats' Donkey Kong Forum thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by ersatz_cats
    In King of Kong, Billy was roasted for saying repeatedly that one should play live in front of witnesses, and then submitting a tape. With the movie out, and the expectation that by his own words he should have witnesses for his scores, his next submission of 1.05 million featured witnesses in one room, watching a "direct feed" allegedly hooked up to Billy's DK cabinet in the other room. These "witnesses" would have no way of verifying if what they were watching was his actual live game play. With the actual submission tape having been proven fraudulent, it would seem this scenario was tailor-made to create the illusion of witnesses where no valid witnesses existed. For the 1.062 million score, Billy and his colleagues simply claimed witnesses were there with no evidence.
    http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2529.0
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  3. 09-19-2019, 01:23 PM
    Maxim_recoil, I too heard this earlier and read it over at DKF, but I was told subsequently that there exist some photographs that show Mitchell more or less in the open of the contention floor with Todd Rogers with the cabinet. I haven't seen these photos myself.

    Without losing sight of the central issue - an explanation how Mitchell's game tapes display non-arcade (eg. MAME) transitions if they were played on original arcade hardware - I'm inclined to go with scenario #3. We can't lose sight of the fact that both of these venues were filled with what I'd call "members of the public" - people who were there primarily for Mortgage-related business with the convention, or just general fun/play at Boomer's. You'd have people casually interested, stopping to watch some game play, and then move on. This in fact occurred at Funspot during Mitchell's recent Perfect Pac-Man anniversary visit - if you watch the stream, members of the public pass by for a short look, or a longer look, through the entire game play. In a situation where someone wanted to submit a MAME recording under the guise of a live, public arcade submission, you would only need the cooperation of the TG referee following the public appearance.

    Keep in mind that both DKF and TG's determination wasn't contingent on confirming what actually went down at these venues, but was focused instead on the evidence found on the tapes, and ascertaining if it was possible to obtain MAME-like transitions on an original non-modified arcade PCB/original hardware after employing Childs/Mitchell's direct feed set-up instructions/equipment.
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  4. 09-19-2019, 01:46 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by TT View Post
    Not sure if I've missed this already, but was thinking about one aspect of this dispute today.

    TG has decreed that the tapes relating to Boomers and the Mortgage brokers convention demonstrate that the hardware used was not original and most likely MAME. So following on from that, what is the assumption about what actually took place at these two live events?

    1. That Billy achieved those scores live at those events but the tapes show that he played using non-standard arcade hardware in those machines?
    2. That Billy did achieve those scores using original hardware, but something weird in the hardware setup used to capture the gameplay to tape, generated evidence of emulation and not original DK PCBs. A setup and resulting output that no one has been able to replicate?
    3. That Billy "mimed" gameplay at both events, or twiddled his thumbs for a few hours, or wasn't there at all, or just sat and played random DK games, and after the events announced the live achievements, then submitted these previously "created" MAME tapes claiming them to show the gameplay achieved live at the events, and everyone there from his set up crew to the referees present were in on the act, and anyone else who happened to appear to be paying attention spotted nothing amiss. Therefore this goes beyond evidence of MAME on a tape, but is in fact akin to a scandal on a par with faking the moon landings.
    4. That Billy achieved the scores at the events, live, using correct hardware, and the original genuine tapes showed gameplay from both events with no anomalies, but are lost for various reasons and have been maliciously switched with doctored tapes - which is just plain bad luck?
    5. Something else?

    I'm not asking here what Billy's explanation is, nor making any assertions for either side, I'm asking what the assumption is from the other side of the fence as to what actually went on at these two events, if we are assuming that the tapes mean the scores are not valid.
    well to get specific requires speculation as the more detailed anyone gets the more likely a detail is wrong. I’d say you’re third option is close though except you vastly overstate the required number of conspirators

    just as the fake board swap which billy himself finally admitted was fake only requires one accomplice so does everything else. The fake board swap video showed evidence of mame too. Therefore child’s saw whatever was in the machine that was playing back mame

    thsfs it. Only one person had to be in on it with him. The same person who was in on the fake board swap with him. With the same amount of co conspirators and duped witnesses.

    I would ask you if the boardswap fake didn’t require a vast conspiracy why do you think the rest of charade requires a vast conspiracy?
    Roy was Right
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  5. 09-19-2019, 01:49 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by datagod View Post
    Dude, you need to seriously stop. You are defaming a man who can actually afford lawyers by calling him pathological. Then you compare him to serial killers. Do you really hate him this much? If you "knew all along" where were you all these years? You are just piling on because you feel safe.
    He never said he was a serial killer. He is simply pointing out the fact that Billy believes the things he says so much that even when proven wrong by hard evidence he still thinks he is right. I think you are having a conflict of interest at this point. Let people say what they want. You have made it very clear you are friends with many of the people being named in this thread you might be better off just leaving it alone for now. You are passive aggressively telling people to stop commenting on the dispute if they do t have anything "nice" to say about him. Stop reading then man. It's clearly bothering you. Take a break. Im actually saying this to you as I would tell any of MY friends if something was getting to them. Take a break.

    They can have their opinions, let them have them. You sure as hell do. Relax. People don't like the man. Think of all the fame Billy stole from some of those people he may have burned by doing what he is being proven he did. Did you ever think of that. You keep saying we are jealous...no. It's kind of disgusting how many people he has throw wronged just to be famous. You have called it charisma and praised him for marketing himself and making the "story" attention grabbing. Most scandals are dude. And when it comes to gaming, there are a lot of passionate people. Let them be just as passionate as you.

    Seriously datagod, take a break for a few days and just don't look at TG. Im sorry, but it's very clear Billy Mitchell is a Haven for toxicity around here...that just doesn't happen over night. And it's not just this one DK submission, it's been mentioned that multiple submissions have had these same types of scenarios. That just doesnt happen. And the only constant in it all is Billy Mitchell, and appears Walter was a big part as well.

    Take a few days, come back fresh.
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  6. 09-19-2019, 04:36 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    He never said he was a serial killer.
    I never said he said. I said he was comparing him to a serial killer. Pay attention.

    Take a few days, come back fresh.[/QUOTE]

    Nope, not gonna happen. We are all here discussing evidence. If you cant be civilized about that you shouldn't be here. Don't try to intimidate people. I am not. People are welcome to comment here. I am just asking people to treat each other with respect. If this was a real court, do you think people could get away with the mud slinging?

    Nope.
    Been playing games since 1975
    Creator of Arcade Retro Clock


  7. 09-19-2019, 04:44 PM
    Speaking of real court, what is it? Three more days now. Tg and guiness really pushing their luck
    Roy was Right
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  8. 09-19-2019, 04:59 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by datagod View Post
    I never said he said. I said he was comparing him to a serial killer. Pay attention.

    Take a few days, come back fresh.
    Nope, not gonna happen. We are all here discussing evidence. If you cant be civilized about that you shouldn't be here. Don't try to intimidate people. I am not. People are welcome to comment here. I am just asking people to treat each other with respect. If this was a real court, do you think people could get away with the mud slinging?

    Nope.[/QUOTE]

    Ummmm, what? Not only was I not civilized, but I was somehow intimidating as well? That's what you read? ITS NOT A REAL COURT, SO YES PEOPLE CAN SAY WHATEVER THEY WANT. Sling away people, it's your right if it involves this thread. You call it mud slinging, I see people talking about Billy's character profile and integrity. Both do actually influence a court room. So let them. Is this really happening?!

    This is what I meant by "take a break." You are reading into things that aren't even close to what they are, your posts are proving that. Seriously, just take a break from the thread for a few days. That's not intimidation, it's a friendly suggestion because your post's aren't making any sense and you are cluttering up the dispute thread you are so worried about protecting. This dispute is a "safe place" to bash Billy? Doesn't that suggest that Billy would otherwise intimidate someone from talking so they have to come here to say something OR ELSE?! This isn't even a dispute anymore. That was awhile ago and Billy was found guilty. Billy reopened this can of worms with the same things he was trying to use to prove his innocence. Everyone is calling him out on it. Now he is deleting and editing his "evidence package" in regard to what is being said here. He definitely appears to change his story, or more accurately, contradicting himself regularly. Most people that do that are called pathological liars. The lie starts, and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. Sooner or later the lie is so huge that it's not possible to go back. They distort the truth so much that it doesn't matter what they say, you don't believe them. That's what he has done. There is a crap load of evidence proving that. You have obviously been reading this thread so you know it to be true. Sorry you can't handle the truth that he is doing exactly that, but you can help by not getting after everyone for calling him what they believe him to be. So relax, re-focus and let people be. If you feel like I'm intimidating you, then maybe you need to grow a pair because I haven't said anything remotely close what would be considered intimidation nor has anyone else. Just chill man. Take a break.
  9. 09-19-2019, 05:00 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by TT View Post
    I'm not asking here what Billy's explanation is, nor making any assertions for either side, I'm asking what the assumption is from the other side of the fence as to what actually went on at these two events, if we are assuming that the tapes mean the scores are not valid.

    Thank you for the question, Tony. I do think it's a fair question, although in order to discuss it, it should be clear that A) a specific theory of how it was done is not agreed upon, and B) a specific theory of how it was done is also not necessary. This may seem weird when comparing it to, say, a murder trial, where forensic investigators are often (but not always) expected to determine the exact chain of events, but I do think it's appropriate, given the circumstances. There does need to be a plausible explanation (something which has been lacking from Billy's allegations that the tapes are switched), but it does not need to be the only answer.

    If I may take a cue from Mruczek and his pop culture analogies, I'd compare it to Star Trek 6: The Undiscovered Country. The crew was trying to figure out who fired on the Klingon ship. And they recounted the evidence they'd uncovered thus far, eliminating many possibilities. And then Spock dropped some old Holmesian knowledge on everyone: "An ancestor of mine maintained that if you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." (They ended up being right, but it's fiction, so the story was designed that way.)

    Non-standard hardware is out, on account of the fact that the tech(s) setting up these multiple direct feeds would've noticed they weren't working with real DK PCBs.

    Malicious tape-switching is out, on account of the different venues across different years which show these MAME transitions. No one had that level of access to each of Billy's three contested DK scores, except of course Billy himself.

    The point of whether arcade hardware can produce each and every one of these MAME signatures is the entire crux of the dispute. The body of evidence, from many very earnest techs, including those who worked for months in an attempt to exonerate Billy, strongly suggests it is simply not possible. It's not quite "Dragster can't do 5.51" proven (which itself is an assertion that doesn't account for cosmic ray bit flips and other such magic), but it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt at this point.

    I'm open to other suggestions. But absent some clever possibilities that somehow nobody from either side has stumbled on as to date, that leaves your suggestion #3. It may seem improbable when listed by itself, but we have eliminated the impossible, and that's what we're left with.

    Note that some of the impossibility can be whittled down. Many of the cited witnesses aren't experts on the game in question, and wouldn't necessarily know what to look for. Todd Rogers has shown himself to be a pathological liar in regards to his own scores, so his word is suspect. Morningdove Mahoney has failed to comment. This mysterious Game Stop manager who padlocked the game at the Mortgage Brokers convention is nowhere to be found. I'm willing to believe Wayne at Nintendo certified a board for Billy, but it doesn't prove Billy played on that board. I'm willing to believe authentic hardware was delivered by Enzo to Boomers, but it doesn't prove Billy used it. I'm willing to believe some of the people who say they saw him play did see something, but the permanent evidence of Billy's tapes supersedes their memories of whether it looked legit.

    As for what did happen, I'm not particularly convinced any playing was done at Boomers, given the only permanent evidence we have (besides Billy's game play shown at Big Bang) are a series of videos purporting to be from the event but which Team Billy was forced to admit were staged after the fact. I'm willing to believe some show was given at the Mortgage Brokers convention, but whether this entailed pretending to play, or playing and suddenly saying "Hey everyone, I got the score!", or having prearranged footage piped through a TV, or anything else, I cannot say, because we don't have those details. We just have tapes that come from MAME (or a MAME equivalent).

    Then you get into a pile of circumstantial evidence which, while not as definitive as the MAME stuff, illustrates a picture of a broader attempt to deceive. This now includes the recent situation with Carlos signing one of their statements, a statement he strongly disagreed with, thinking doing so would appease Team Billy and make them go away. How many of these other witness statements followed the same story?

    I do think yours is a fair question. It's worth considering just how valid the other explanations are. But no other explanation stacks up to the evidence. Either we have to ignore all this other objective and circumstantial evidence, or we accept that this guy (who we have caught lying, even within the last week) lied about DK scores and got his friends to go along and lie with him.
  10. 09-19-2019, 05:18 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by thegamer1185 View Post
    Ummmm, what? Not only was I not civilized, but I was somehow intimidating as well? That's what you read? ITS NOT A REAL COURT, SO YES PEOPLE CAN SAY WHATEVER THEY WANT. Sling away people, it's your right if it involves this thread. You call it mud slinging, I see people talking about Billy's character profile and integrity. Both do actually influence a court room. So let them. Is this really happening?!

    This is what I meant by "take a break." You are reading into things that aren't even close to what they are, your posts are proving that. Seriously, just take a break from the thread for a few days. That's not intimidation, it's a friendly suggestion because your post's aren't making any sense and you are cluttering up the dispute thread you are so worried about protecting. This dispute is a "safe place" to bash Billy? Doesn't that suggest that Billy would otherwise intimidate someone from talking so they have to come here to say something OR ELSE?! This isn't even a dispute anymore. That was awhile ago and Billy was found guilty. Billy reopened this can of worms with the same things he was trying to use to prove his innocence. Everyone is calling him out on it. Now he is deleting and editing his "evidence package" in regard to what is being said here. He definitely appears to change his story, or more accurately, contradicting himself regularly. Most people that do that are called pathological liars. The lie starts, and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. Sooner or later the lie is so huge that it's not possible to go back. They distort the truth so much that it doesn't matter what they say, you don't believe them. That's what he has done. There is a crap load of evidence proving that. You have obviously been reading this thread so you know it to be true. Sorry you can't handle the truth that he is doing exactly that, but you can help by not getting after everyone for calling him what they believe him to be. So relax, re-focus and let people be. If you feel like I'm intimidating you, then maybe you need to grow a pair because I haven't said anything remotely close what would be considered intimidation nor has anyone else. Just chill man. Take a break.
    Still here. Still commenting, and more importantly reading the research being performed by ersatz_catz and TT.

    Thanks for being anti-social!
    Been playing games since 1975
    Creator of Arcade Retro Clock


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